Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Howie23 06-26-06, 04:57 PM	Does purchase access on an AR constitute all that is needed to craft that item (assuming necessary feats and spells)? I know the common practice is that this is sufficient. I believe this is the intent of the LGCS on this. The chain of logic doesn't seem to be there to actually make it happen though. The crafting section identifies that craft wonderous item can be used to craft DMG items following given rules. Campaign documentation is needed to craft non-DMG items. One of the bullet points on p. 55 of the LGCS states, "An item with a frequency of any, adventure, regional, metaregional, or core is a valid purchase source for magic item creation. This rule applies only to creation, not purchasing items." Purchase source, as identified on p. 54, allows CWI of a DMG item with prerequisite CL, instead of CL+2. A concrete example: Does purchase of a +1 vest of resistance provide the necessary campaign documentation to craft it if the crafter has CWI, the necessary CL, and can cast or use scrolls for resistance? David
GorTeX 06-27-06, 10:23 AM	yes, tho you do not actually have to have purchased the vest to be able to create it. Basically, anything in the bottom box (Items found during the adventure) that you have (or had) access to give you the ablility to craft that item at any furture time...even after the access is gone. For example. Say on AR #5 you obtained adventure access to a Vest of Resistance +1, but could not afford it before the access expired (after AR#8). Still, at anytime afterwards, you could make one (assuming you meet the other requirements, CL, $$, ingredients, etc). I do not think there is a time limit either, so you could craft one after AR#100 if you wanted, even if the only time you had access was that one on AR#5.
Howie23 06-27-06, 12:10 PM	yes, tho you do not actually have to have purchased the vest to be able to create it. Basically, anything in the bottom box (Items found during the adventure) that you have (or had) access to give you the ablility to craft that item at any furture time...even after the access is gone. I understand this is how everyone plays it. My point is that this is not how the LGCS is written. I can't identify the set of rules that supports this. On page 54, the LGCS provides rules for crafting with CWI out of the DMG only: "Craft Rod, Craft Staff, Craft Wondrous Item, Forge Ring: Characters with these feats can create items from the DMG Tables 7-18, 7-19, 7-25, 7-26, 7-27, 7-28, and 7-29 using the following rules." It then lists some rules, all of which apply to DMG sourced items only. One of those rules is: "Casters able to purchase items valued over 2,500 gp from approved sources may create those items once the prerequisites are satisfied." This is for DMG only. This is the purchase source clause. On page 55, we get: "An item with a frequency of any, adventure, regional, metaregional, or core is a valid purchase source for magic item creation. This rule applies only to creation, not purchasing items." The problem is that purchase source is established to reduce the CL requirement [/i] for DMG items only.[/i] I don't see the rules that I can justify to craft non-DMG items off of anything other than campaign documentation that says something like, "The great wizard Joe teaches you to craft vests of resistance (+1, +2, +3)." Like I've said...I believe the intent is as everyone plays it, but would like confirmation from Circle David
Arvagor 06-27-06, 01:40 PM	I understand this is how everyone plays it. My point is that this is not how the LGCS is written. I can't identify the set of rules that supports this.I think that interpretation comes from one of the FAQs on page 70 (emphasis mine): Q: I have a favor/influence point that grants me access to an item or an upgrade to an item. Does this count as access for purposed of MIC? A: No. Somebody else being willing to craft, upgrade, or sell you an item does not count as having access to that item. The item must appear in the 'Items Found During the Adventure' box to qualify for MIC.I could see that as being interpreted by some people as, "anything showing up in the (Items Found) section means you have creation access forever after". Continued confusion on the issue is one of the reasons why I have yet to take any [Item Creation] feats for any of my caster characters.
GorTeX 06-27-06, 03:03 PM	basic rules from page 54: • You cannot create any item that bestows a negative level upon its bearer if they are good. • Charged items are always created with a full charge. • Campaign documentation may provide an item creator with the opportunity to create items from other sources. So, with documentation (the item appearing on your 'items found' section), you can create items from other sources. Without documentation, you can only create things that are in the DMG. Also note that a vest of resistance is listed as a standard item for upgrades on page 56.
Howie23 06-27-06, 06:08 PM	basic rules from page 54: Quote: • You cannot create any item that bestows a negative level upon its bearer if they are good. • Charged items are always created with a full charge. • Campaign documentation may provide an item creator with the opportunity to create items from other sources. Right. The third bullet point establishes that there may be opportunities to craft non-DMG items. That opportunity requires campaign documentation. So, with documentation (the item appearing on your 'items found' section), This is the whole point. Appearing in the "items found" establishes the ability to purchase the item. It doesn't provide campaign documentation to craft it. The section that attempts to make this connection is the one you originally quoted: "An item with a frequency of any, adventure, regional, metaregional, or core is a valid purchase source for magic item creation. This rule applies only to creation, not purchasing items." (LGCS, p.55) Ok, so the item listing is a valid purchase source. What can the PC do with the valid purchase source? "Casters able to purchase items valued over 2,500 gp from approved sources may create those items once the prerequisites are satisfied." (LGCS, p. 54) The problem is that this bullet point is limited to DMG items. Why? Because the bullet point is one of the rules detailed after: "Craft Rod, Craft Staff, Craft Wondrous Item, Forge Ring: Characters with these feats can create items from the DMG Tables 7-18, 7-19, 7-25, 7-26, 7-27, 7-28, and 7-29 using the following rules." Also note that a vest of resistance is listed as a standard item for upgrades on page 56. The vest is provided as an example. If you don't like the example, use a different non-DMG CWI item. The vest's appearance as a standard item for upgrade is immaterial to the discussion at hand. That has to do with whether it can be upgraded (with the appropriate resources), not what constitutes those resources (which is the topic at hand). Thanks, David
GorTeX 06-27-06, 06:31 PM	I'm going to have to bow out of the conversation now. I see what you are saying, but I don't agree with how you are interpeting it. Everyone that I've played LG with in my area interpets this section so that if you have an item in your 'item found' section, that you can craft it. Purchase access allows you to craft an item no matter what source it comes from..it is not limited to the DMG items. I know this, but I can't explain it any better.
Howie23 06-27-06, 07:18 PM	I'm going to have to bow out of the conversation now. I see what you are saying, but I don't agree with how you are interpeting it. Everyone that I've played LG with in my area interpets this section so that if you have an item in your 'item found' section, that you can craft it. Purchase access allows you to craft an item no matter what source it comes from..it is not limited to the DMG items. I know this, but I can't explain it any better. You've now reached pretty much the exact point that I'm at, thus the initial question. :) Everyone does it. We "know" it's like that. But..... :) David
clik_ml 06-27-06, 08:12 PM	Craft Rod, Craft Staff, Craft Wondrous Item, Forge Ring: Characters with these feats can create items from the DMG Tables 7-18, 7-19, 7-25, 7-26, 7-27, 7-28, and 7-29 using the following rules. Any item that has a market price of 2,500 gp or less can be created once the prerequisites are satisfied. Casters able to purchase items valued over 2,500 gp from approved sources may create those items once the prerequisites are satisfied. Items over 2,500 gp that the caster cannot purchase may be crafted if the casters level exceeds the minimum item creation level by 2 and all other prerequisites are satisfied. Casters with campaign documentation allowing the creation of an item may create that item once the prerequisites are satisfied. You can use a scrolled spell to satisfy the spell requirements, but you must use one scroll for every day of the creation process. BAM!
Iswald 06-27-06, 11:05 PM	Right. The third bullet point establishes that there may be opportunities to craft non-DMG items. That opportunity requires campaign documentation. ... The problem is that this bullet point is limited to DMG items. Why? Because the bullet point is one of the rules detailed after: "Craft Rod, Craft Staff, Craft Wondrous Item, Forge Ring: Characters with these feats can create items from the DMG Tables 7-18, 7-19, 7-25, 7-26, 7-27, 7-28, and 7-29 using the following rules." Don't all of the rules for item creation refer to tables from the DMG? The rules also say that you craft items that you've had access to purchase (which is campaign documentation for crafting purposes). There'd be no reason to include the third bullet about being able to craft items from outside the DMG if we weren't allowed to use it with the rest of the rules provided. This third bullet is also before all of the individual sections on crafting so it must apply to all of them as a general rule.
Howie23 06-28-06, 12:16 AM	Don't all of the rules for item creation refer to tables from the DMG? Several of the feats for MIC fall into the same category as CWI, but not all. Brew Potion allows crafting of items on the DMG table, or which are on an AR, or from other campaign sources. A 3rd level cleric with Brew Potion can't just brew a potion of lesser vigor without AR or other campaign access, for example. Scribe Scroll and Craft Wand are more open. That 3rd level cleric with Scribe Scroll could scribe a scroll of lesser vigor. A Clr1/Wiz5 with Craft Wand could craft a wand of lesser vigor. No other access is needed once he can cast the spell. Craft Wonderous Item (CWI), Forge Ring, Craft Rod, and Craft Staff are all in the same boat that has been described elsewhere. I've limited the question to CWI just to stay focused. Craft Arms and Armor has a similar issue to CWI. The rules also say that you craft items that you've had access to purchase (which is campaign documentation for crafting purposes). That is exactly what I'm asking about. The rules don't say that. The rules say that purchase access provides a purchase source for crafting. So, that's sufficient for Brew Potion, because that's all Brew Potion needs to unlock that item for crafting. For CWI, by the rules as written, it only reduces the CL to the stated CL, on the other hand, and only for items in the DMG. Purchase access isn't sufficient to craft a WI; campaign documentation (documentation to craft, not just purchase) is required to be able to craft the item; this is the third bullet point. The whole problem is that purchase access is not established as crafting access anywhere except for Brew Potion. There'd be no reason to include the third bullet about being able to craft items from outside the DMG if we weren't allowed to use it with the rest of the rules provided. This third bullet is also before all of the individual sections on crafting so it must apply to all of them as a general rule. Oh, there's no question that crafting out of the DMG is possible. The issue is whether purchase access is sufficient, or whether a favor statement like, "For saving the High Doodad, the Wizard's Guild provides you with resources to craft the items indicated with an asterix below. This serves as access to craft these items if the PC has the necessary feats and meets the prerequisites..." Everyone plays it as providing access to craft. The chain of logic isn't in the LGCS. Thanks, David
Iswald 06-28-06, 11:08 PM	I'm not able to follow your logic. From "Basic Rules" of "Magic Item Creation". This applies to all crafting... "Campaign documentation may provide an item creator with the opportunity to create items from other sources." From the "Nuts and Bolts" section, which isn't limited to CWI... "An item with a frequency.... is a valid purchase source for magic item creation. This applies only to creation, not purchasing items" "Frequency has no bearing on when a magic item may be created..." The "Basic Rules" section states you can make items from outside the DMG and the "Nuts and Bolts" section defines what AR access counts with respect to crafting items from outside the DMG. The section on CWI only applies to crafting items from the DMG and shouldn't be used to determine if you can craft items from other sources. Having access on an AR changes when you can use CWI with DMG items, rules which don't apply to non-DMG sources.
Howie23 06-29-06, 02:48 AM	I'm not able to follow your logic. "An item with a frequency.... is a valid purchase source for magic item creation. This applies only to creation, not purchasing items" Purchase source is never defined as providing compaign documentation for crafting non-DMG items other than potions. The "Basic Rules" section states you can make items from outside the DMG and the "Nuts and Bolts" section defines what AR access counts with respect to crafting items from outside the DMG. The "Nuts and Bolts" section doesn't define what AR access counts for in crafting. It says it's a purchase source. What's that re: CWI (as opposed to Brew Potion)? For non-DMG items, it is undefined. It doesn't do anything. You say it "defines what AR access counts..." No. It says it's a purchase source. Purchase source doesn't provide the ability to CWI. For non-DMG items, purchase source does nothing. The section on CWI only applies to crafting items from the DMG and shouldn't be used to determine if you can craft items from other sources. Having access on an AR changes when you can use CWI with DMG items, rules which don't apply to non-DMG sources. Right. The problem is, people use the section to invoke purchase source for non-DMG items, as it is the only, albeit invalid, connection between AR listing--> purchase source-->CWI. David
Iswald 06-29-06, 10:57 AM	I have to question whether you may be suffering from some form of dyslexia. An item with a frequency of any, adventure, regional, metaregional or core is a valid purchase source for magic item creation. This applies only to creation, not purchasing items. It is a purchase source for magic item creation. This would not be a well turned phrase. Read the last sentence. This applies only to creation, not purchasing items. In other words, it's for when you craft items, not when you buy them... In the campaign documentation section, it says that ARs are campaign documents. In the section about learning spells, it refers to being able to learn spells through campaign documentation, in other words, ARs. In the sourcebook and metaorg section it basicly says that you can't take feats, spells or PrCs that have non-core access, unless you have campaign documentation on an AR. Ie, ARs are campaign documentation. Throughout the LGCS, almost every time that 'campaign documentation' is used, they are talking about ARs. There are some exceptions, such as metaorg certs, the Bright Sands doc and the LGCS itself. So when they say in Chapter Seven: Magic Item Creation, under Basic Rules that "campaign documentation may provide an item creator with the opportunity to create items from other sources." They're saying that ARs may allow you to craft items. Which items do they allow you to craft? Go back to the quote I have up on top. Any item on your campaign documentation (AR!) that gives the item creator access to purchase an item with a frequency of any, adventure, regional, metaregional or core can be used as access to craft that item. Again, it then says that rule applies only to crafting items and has nothing to do with when you can purchase them. To summarize, you can craft any item that you gain access to on an AR that you could have purchased. There is no restriction on the sourcebook of that item! Now, when you go back to the section on CWI, it provides you with further access to more items that don't require campaign documentation (you don't need AR access!) But, all of these additional items that you can craft must come from the DMG and meet the limitations for that section.
Howie23 06-29-06, 12:57 PM	I have to question whether you may be suffering from some form of dyslexia. Well, I must admit that I sometimes stay up at night wondering if there really is a doG...I just thought is was insomnia and agnotstacism... ;) No, but thanks for your concern. Please let that be the last of the personal attacks, ok? The entire point of this is that 90% (or choose a suitably high number) of the campaign is playing it the way you describe, and 10% then won't play crafters because the rules aren't clear on this issue. I'm asking for the rule to be made clear. I've posted the question in this, the official LG forum. Circle has remained silent on it. It is a purchase source for magic item creation. This would not be a well turned phrase. Read the last sentence. This applies only to creation, not purchasing items. In other words, it's for when you craft items, not when you buy them... Right. For when you craft them. When an AR purchase listing is sufficient (such as for brew potion), this does the job. In the campaign documentation section, it says that ARs are campaign documents. <snip> I never said ARs aren't campaign documentation. They are, indeed, campaign documents. I'm saying that there is no connection to say that the ability to purchase most items conveys the ability to craft those items. I'm saying, that per the LGCS, something more than ability to purchase is required. "Campaign documentation may provide an item creator with the opportunity to create items from other sources." Please show me the connection for how "opportunity to create items from other sources" is satisfied by "..purchase source for magic item creation." The chain of logic isn't there. You are assuming the conclusion. So when they say in Chapter Seven: Magic Item Creation, under Basic Rules that "campaign documentation may provide an item creator with the opportunity to create items from other sources." They're saying that ARs may allow you to craft items. Yes, we agree on this. Everyone agrees on this. Which items do they allow you to craft? Go back to the quote I have up on top. Any item on your campaign documentation (AR!) that gives the item creator access to purchase an item with a frequency of any, adventure, regional, metaregional or core can be used as access to craft that item. I hope the ellipses aren't confusing below. I'm using "..a valid purchase source..." for the whole phrase "..A valid purchase source for magic item creation..." without repeatedly typing it out. No, it doesn't say that it can be used as access to craft. That assumes the conclusion. That's the whole point. "..A valid purchase source for magic item creation..." It doesn't provide access to craft, it provides "..a valid purchase source..." What can you do with "a valid purchase source...?" You can brew potions. You can reduce the CL of a WI. A few other things. No where, I repeat, "no where" is the connection made for non-DMG WI that "..a valid purchase source for magic item creation.." is useful at all. Say you're going to a concert. You need a ticket to get in. You can't get in with an advertisement. You can't get in with an advertised picture of the ticket. You can't get in with a coupon that lowers the price of the ticket. You can't use a ticket to a different concert. You need the ticket. To summarize, you can craft any item that you gain access to on an AR that you could have purchased. There is no restriction on the sourcebook of that item! I understand that this is the way that 90% of players understand this. I understand it may be the intent. I also understand that the LGCS doesn't actually say that for anything other than potions. You are reading this, "..campaign documentation (AR!!!!) may provide the opportunity to craft. That opportunity is provided whenever you can purchase something on your AR." I'm reading it as, "..campaign documentation, such as ARs, may provide the opporunity to craft. This opportunity is provided when the AR explicitly says you have obtained the ability to craft a new item. If an item is available for purchase via campaign documentation, such as ARs, that serves as a purchase source for magic item creation. A purchase source can be used to brew a potion, or to reduce the required CL on some items." David The Lexic
blood_kite 06-29-06, 01:15 PM	I've been watching this arguement on at least 3 different message boards and I'm pretty sure I'm the one who got it started last week when I asked about crafting from sources like CA and LM since I have access to items from them. I think that the wording in the CWI section could use an extra sentence to clarify this issue and make it more easily understood. But most people I have seen post, even when they say the wording is ambiguous and DOES mean that you can't craft outside the DMG without some weird documentation, have admitted that in play it rarely stops people from making items from other sources. So here's a good question. Who here has seen a crafter get denied making something like a Vest of Resistance because the GM said that purchase access is not the same as crafting access for items outside the DMG? I've only played in a few modules where someone had CWI and had a MIC filled out before we started and I don't know what they were making, so I don't know how often it happens. I'd have to look through all 99 of my AR's stretching back to year 4, but I don't remember seeing any favor that said that someone would teach you how to craft a Vest of Resistance +1 or that they would teach you how to upgrade a Vest of Resistance +1 to +2 or +3. Because the people saying that purchase access on an AR is not "campaign documentation" allowing you to craft outside the DMG are basically saying that a favor like that is the about the only way most characters are ever going to be able to create something as simple as a Vest of Resistance, which now has its own upgrade chart in the LGCS. I have seen favors that allow characters to pay someone to upgrade a Vest of Resistance, but never one that teaches characters how to make them. Considering that people have probably been making and upgrading Vests of Resistance since Tome & Blood and the Circle even specifically listed Vests of Resistance as following the Cloak of Resistance upgrade progession in the latest LGCS; this added with the lack of teaching favors in the 11 year 594, 19 year 595, and 5 year 596 Cores I've played and it might just mean that the Circle takes it as a given that characters can use CWI on any item they had purchase access to and that they don't need a specific favor that says someone will teach them how to craft a Vest of Resistance. The wording of CWI may be confusing, but I think reading it to say that you can't craft a Vest of Resistance because you don't have a favor that says someone specifically teaches you how to make a Vest of Resistance is going against what was intented.
Howie23 06-29-06, 02:19 PM	I've been watching this arguement on at least 3 different message boards and I'm pretty sure I'm the one who got it started last week when I asked about crafting from sources like CA and LM since I have access to items from them. Stewart, Could be. Things like this tend to build in interest level. On my end, this stemmed out of a conversation with a friend. He runs a crafter, looked at the LGCS the other night, and worried that he's got a couple of items made that he needs to return. That's all stemming from him, without someone telling him there is a problem. I then ran it by a couple of knowledgable folks. We went through the same thing as here..."Everyone knows..." to "hmmmm...I guess not..." to "well, that's how everyone plays it." Then to IM to give it wider audience, then here to get a circle statement. The conversations with GorTeX and Iswald have basically been hashing out the same ground as I've done now in two private conversations and then on IM. I think that the wording in the CWI section could use an extra sentence to clarify this issue and make it more easily understood. But most people I have seen post, even when they say the wording is ambiguous and DOES mean that you can't craft outside the DMG without some weird documentation, have admitted that in play it rarely stops people from making items from other sources. That's a good summary, and I suspect that's the reason why there hasn't been a Circle reply on this. Anecdotally, this issue has been around for at least a couple of years. So here's a good question. Who here has seen a crafter get denied making something like a Vest of Resistance because the GM said that purchase access is not the same as crafting access for items outside the DMG? I've only played in a few modules where someone had CWI and had a MIC filled out before we started and I don't know what they were making, so I don't know how often it happens. It's a good question, but it misses the point. Many of us play this game under the idea of "I'll do what is clear" rather than "I'll do what I can get away with." Such ambiguity rewards "I'll do what I can get away with." There is a poster earlier who said he doesn't play crafters due to the ambiguity. My friend is looking to get corrections on two items that he now thinks he couldn't craft in the first place. I've recently started playing a crafter, and until this is clarified, I won't CWI non-DMG items. So, I have been denied, by me. Others have done the same. <snip some very good summary> The wording of CWI may be confusing, but I think reading it to say that you can't craft a Vest of Resistance because you don't have a favor that says someone specifically teaches you how to make a Vest of Resistance is going against what was intented. I happen to agree with you. If you look back in the very first post of this thread, I specifically said that I think this is what was intended. So, may we please have a ruling that that's what is intended, since it isn't what it says, yet everyone plays it that way. Failure to do so has the result of training people that they can't trust the campaign documents or that they might as well ignore the rules, since everyone else is. David
GorTeX 06-29-06, 08:45 PM	another avenue is to ask your triad. (either via email or at a convention)
Howie23 06-30-06, 04:20 AM	another avenue is to ask your triad. (either via email or at a convention) Triad doesn't have authority to rule on campaign wide issues. This is the described venue to get a ruling on this campaign wide issue. See the LGCS. David
Iswald 07-02-06, 06:55 AM	No, but thanks for your concern. Please let that be the last of the personal attacks, ok? It was a serious question, but if you want to take it as an insult, that's fine too.
Cardinal Teplin 07-02-06, 07:32 AM	I've had the same problem in interpretation, and I've also seen new players not playing crafters because they've been going based on what is in the LGCS. This problem has been floating around for a while, and it would be really good to get it clarified. We still have a great many people creating characters based on a reading of the LGCS. I'd like to support people reading the rules, rather than going with what's on their table, wherever it is possible.