Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bitznarf 04-23-07, 03:17 PM	It occurred to me today that a lot of mods seem to assume that the PC(s) will accept whatever penalties are placed on them by the authorities in a region if they get caught doing something 'bad'. For example you get caught killing someone in Zeir-i-Zeif, generally considered a bad thing by those in charge. Why exactly do the PCs have to accept the punishment, whatever form it may be in (TU cost, gold, etc)? Is it because of the modular approach of LG, the way a mod only goes so far, and if there were ways to break out of jail a mod could easily take more than 4 hours to play? What thoughts do people have on the subject?
Simpi 04-23-07, 03:52 PM	It occurred to me today that a lot of mods seem to assume that the PC(s) will accept whatever penalties are placed on them by the authorities in a region if they get caught doing something 'bad'. LG format naturally places limitations to the fact so things need to be kept simple. So for example, if you are "Wanted in Ahlissa" you get caught on roll of 1-2 on D20 (just 1 if you succeed in Disguise check). Also, it's probably quite an evil act (and thus character removal) if your character simply decides to murder some LN guards who are doing their job. Also, this needs to be repeated. PCs are not omnipotent and unique hero-deities who cannot ever suffer something negative. There will always be someone who can bring him to justice. I always try to write untiered "law enforcement" encounters to my modules as tools for DM if someone thinks his PC can push everyone around. In one local game, player said (out of character) to other players "This guy is some low level warrior mook. He cannot stop us breaking the law" (which they were doing at that time, blatantly and in the open) and then ran straight into level 10 guard captain (and her buddies) on APL4. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
redgamer 04-23-07, 04:22 PM	Because escaping the level 1 mooks that try to arrest you often mean the next time a high level squad is sent after you. Its actually nicer to assume you get jailed for 4 TUs. In many regions if you flaunt the law the likely IC response is the authority who have much greater resources then you hire and adventurer to take you in. Now this is a costly recourse for the authority so they will take great steps to so that you are incapable of flaunting the law again. There is also the metacampaing consideration that outlaw characters make certain mods unplayable/unfun for the other players. This can be delt with on individualy basis but is reason why a limited number of options must be used in cases like this.
Mommy was an Orc 04-23-07, 04:59 PM	Suppose your APL 10 character is running around, breaking the laws - say with 50K gold worth of magic items - pretty standard for APL 10. And he's resisting arrest by running(meaning most regions would say okay to lethal force) Okay, let's reverse the situation. There's this lawbreaker, moderately powerful, that the authorities want your party to catch. He's supposed to have 50K worth of items on him. They're yours if you catch him - sold 6 ways, that's 4000 each. Or more than APL 16 treasure. Would you take that job?
Rerednaw 04-23-07, 05:16 PM	It occurred to me today that a lot of mods seem to assume that the PC(s) will accept whatever penalties are placed on them by the authorities in a region if they get caught doing something 'bad'. For example you get caught killing someone in Zeir-i-Zeif, generally considered a bad thing by those in charge. Why exactly do the PCs have to accept the punishment, whatever form it may be in (TU cost, gold, etc)? Is it because of the modular approach of LG, the way a mod only goes so far, and if there were ways to break out of jail a mod could easily take more than 4 hours to play? What thoughts do people have on the subject? I don't quite get the question. In the cases where I've witnesses brushes with the law, the text of the law does not leave any wiggle room. You are guilty, fined x TUs and x gold. Period, no negotiations, appeals, zip.
bitznarf 04-23-07, 05:26 PM	Also, it's probably quite an evil act (and thus character removal) if your character simply decides to murder some LN guards who are doing their job. This is the only part of your post I have an issue with, the rest makes sense to me. However, lets take a look at this from the viewpoint of a chaotic aligned party adventuring in a lawful dominated area. Lets assume that the party did something that the law would frown upon, say breaking into someones house and confronting him/them/the NPC in some fashion. The LN guards are sent to bring the PCs in to face the local judicial system, whatever that may be. The party says essentially 'no, we are not coming peacefully, that NPC got what he had coming to him, we have done nothing wrong.' Note that for the PCs, they are entirely justified in their own mind for their actions, just not according to the law, which is on an entirely different axis from good vs. evil. So the LN guards try to defeat the party anyway. Fine. The PCs react with lethal force. Lets assume that the PCs win. The good thing to do would be to make sure you didn't kill anyone and that anyone unconscious is stable. The evil thing to do would be to make sure that everyone is actually dead. So no, I don't consider this 'murder'. I don't see it as being much different from killing a predator of some sort in the wild when defending oneself. So are the PCs being vigilantes? Yes. Does that in and of itself make a PC evil? No. One final note, one 'quite evil act' does not necessitate the removal of a character. Ones triad could decided that the character has become evil thus removing it from the game but it is not a guaranteed thing.
bitznarf 04-23-07, 05:30 PM	I don't quite get the question. In the cases where I've witnesses brushes with the law, the text of the law does not leave any wiggle room. You are guilty, fined x TUs and x gold. Period, no negotiations, appeals, zip. Thats exactly it. Why do the PCs just blindly accept this? If they feel they have done the right thing, why do they just sit there and rot in jail or whatever the case may be. Simpi, redgamer, and MwaO gave some good responses that make sense.
Mommy was an Orc 04-23-07, 05:39 PM	Just to expand upon this slightly - a party of 6 10th level adventurers does some kind of action - they should have roughly 300K of items on them. That's worth 150K sold, or roughly 25K per party of 6 hunting them. Extrapolating on the treasure chart, APL 20 should be slightly less than 10K. In other words, odds are you could probably lure an Epic PC party to take out those 10th level clowns...
bitznarf 04-23-07, 05:39 PM	Just to expand upon this slightly - a party of 6 10th level adventurers does some kind of action - they should have roughly 300K of items on them. That's worth 150K sold, or roughly 25K per party of 6 hunting them. Extrapolating on the treasure chart, APL 20 should be slightly less than 10K. In other words, odds are you could probably lure an Epic PC party to take out those 10th level clowns... You mean sorta like adventuring in evil aligned areas?
Mommy was an Orc 04-23-07, 05:48 PM	You mean sorta like adventuring in evil aligned areas? Evil isn't used to metagaming like PCs(or ex-PCs) are :) "Tenser, should we really take them out?" "Serten...I've scried the area that they were last seen at - they were using moderate magics to defeat their opponent, who I calculated as being CR 13. They should be roughly 10th level, and therefore have 300K of treasure. I need to add a new wing to my tower. Wouldn't your church find something useful to do with 25K?" "While I understood very little of your arcane terms, that last sentence makes sense to me. I'm tired of only getting 15K while taking on the archfiends of Hell..."
Mystical_Tutor 04-23-07, 05:50 PM	One final note one 'quite evil act' does not necessitate the removal of a character. Ones triad could decided that the character has become evil thus removing it from the game but it is not a guaranteed thing. It may not necessitate it but it can sure facilitate it. Depending on your Triad it could be a SURE thing if you killed or even thwarted a LN Guard for doing his duty. Of course this edges into the old beat to death horse of morality in LG/D&D which has had many threads dedicated to it and which has little if any chance of adding anything new here. In any case, though, we must remember not to leans too heavily on an absolute alignment grid. The D&D grid is not to be taken as an absolute. The whole grid is skewed toward good. To illustrate this, take a truly 'neutral' individual. To remain a true neutral they should do as many 'evil' acts as good ones if the grid is absolute. How long would he/she be allowed in LG? I have not seen any totally Chaotic parties so I'll wait till I see one to check out what they do.
_metz_ 04-23-07, 08:43 PM	Chaotic or NOT. You are adventuring in a lawful area, and as such their rules apply by virtue of national sovereignty. PCs may thing they have the right to ignore it on some philosophical arguement, or claiming they are not from there, but its the LAW. As such the people in charge will arrest you, if you resist, you excacerbate your crimes. The DM has you overwhelmed and you lose TUs. Someone in society who breaks the laws all the time, irrespective of thier personal beleifs will often be caught and brought to it, wheter the law is "just" or not. If the PCs were powerful enough to defeat an entire state it would make the game a little pointless and hence why characters retire. Its like taht Yank in Singapore who argues he shouldn't get the Rotan, despite breaking the law - go to another country, and you need to be wary of their legal system, whether you agree with it or not. I really like games where the PCs are accountable for thier actions, If you are a chaotic barabarian, you can't impose your views on others, by the same token, when in a chaotic area, you will understand it better and should be able to cope more. Reason most societies are lawful is order is required for advanced civilisation. (Irrespective of wahtever Anarchists will tell you, and a LOT of societies are based on the collective as being more important than the individual - with the exception of the ruler of course lol) Most chaotic societies don't produce treasure as well. If you want to adventure in a group of huts, by all means do what you like with no ramification, I'll go checkout the ancient city in the tyrannical nation lol, Great works of technology (magic items?) and currecy have all come from Lawful societies, or their imposition on other societies. Hence adventurers need to deal with em, even if that society is now in ruins. (traps in tombs etc representing laws that they didn't want you to take their stuff)
jstorrie 04-23-07, 09:00 PM	Well, the mod in your example is an intro, so the ability of the party to evade Zeif City's militia is next to zero... especially since the guards jump out of a Grey Box Portal. There are specific penalties listed in the module for any crimes that are in the scope of the mod, save for resisting arrest; I'd ad-hoc a penalty to any Diplomacy attempt to fall on the mercy of the court, after capture, if the PCs fought against the guards.
bitznarf 04-23-07, 09:28 PM	metz: Your missing the point. The question is not 'should characters be punished', its 'why is punishment automatic?' Why does grey box text trump the game rules? Why is there no opportunity to avoid the punishment? jstorrie: It was a convient example, nothing more really. I can imagine this happening pretty well anywhere.
Mystical_Tutor 04-23-07, 09:30 PM	I really like games where the PCs are accountable for thier actions,... Yes, then you get the choice of actually playing your toon or coping out.
cycloptic_squirrel 04-23-07, 09:53 PM	metz: Your missing the point. The question is not 'should characters be punished', its 'why is punishment automatic?' Why does grey box text trump the game rules? Why is there no opportunity to avoid the punishment? Would you rather have every mod contain an unteired encounter just to 'capture' you and send you to a jail? Seems like a lot of work for little benefit. Trump game rules? Yes. But so is the whole system of wealth acquisition. I think the punishment system is fine.
bitznarf 04-23-07, 10:27 PM	Would you rather have every mod contain an unteired encounter just to 'capture' you and send you to a jail? Seems like a lot of work for little benefit. Trump game rules? Yes. But so is the whole system of wealth acquisition. I think the punishment system is fine. If this was the case, why wouldn't there also be untiered encounters in places like the Bandit Kingdoms? MwaO suggested one possible reason, one that in my opinion makes a certain degree of sense from a metagame perspective, but not from an in game one. Oh, and by the way MwaO, I don't think Tenser and co could come after the PCs. I think they would be a little more than 3 levels above the APL.
cycloptic_squirrel 04-23-07, 11:00 PM	If this was the case, why wouldn't there also be untiered encounters in places like the Bandit Kingdoms? MwaO suggested one possible reason, one that in my opinion makes a certain degree of sense from a metagame perspective, but not from an in game one. Oh, and by the way MwaO, I don't think Tenser and co could come after the PCs. I think they would be a little more than 3 levels above the APL. It's because you did something wrong/stupid/against the law/mod hates you. Whatever the reason, I get the impression that writers could throw in an untiered encounter in such situations, but I think most people would be content to accept the mod's punishment instead of every time going through a resource draining, PC killing, not too much fun for anyone but a sadistic DM, unbalanced, untiered encounter. It's kind of like calling the fight in the NPC's favor. It just isn't cost effective in resource management to include such encounters in every mod that needs a punishment. And I'm pretty sure there are untiered encounters in the Bandit Kingdoms, you just didn't do anything silly enough with a creative DM. If you doubt me, next time you're playing a mod with a resourceful DM, tell him that you walk up to the castle gate, inform the guards that you are "here to assassinate the king/duke/mayor/evil demonic overlord, may I please have an audience with him?" In a home game, your concerns are legitamate; in LG, I don't see any way of adressing the issue without an incredible amount of rules/paperwork/author time.
_metz_ 04-23-07, 11:34 PM	Reason mod makes it automatic? Cos the moduel system HAS to take such liberties, its not a home game unfortunately, time contstraints, issues with encountersa and balance, as well as DMing issues require it. ITs that simple, I don't see why there is an issue. - But thats just me.
bitznarf 04-23-07, 11:40 PM	I don't really consider it an issue per say, just something that I wanted to look at. As a player I haven't complained when this has been imposed on my PCs, I just wanted to explore the idea. *shrugs* Its something I do. If no one looks at these sorts of things, nothing changes. Take MwaO's suggestion about gold/xp rewards for playing up. I think it is a pretty good idea, but if no one had looked at it, nothing would change. As it is, I think there is a good chance something similar to that will make it into the next LGCS.
King Kashue 04-24-07, 01:20 AM	LG format naturally places limitations to the fact so things need to be kept simple. So for example, if you are "Wanted in Ahlissa" you get caught on roll of 1-2 on D20 (just 1 if you succeed in Disguise check). Also, it's probably quite an evil act (and thus character removal) if your character simply decides to murder some LN guards who are doing their job. Bah, Ahlissans are all closet Hextorites anyway...Kill em all!
Landale 04-24-07, 03:01 AM	In any case, though, we must remember not to leans too heavily on an absolute alignment grid. The D&D grid is not to be taken as an absolute. The whole grid is skewed toward good. To illustrate this, take a truly 'neutral' individual. To remain a true neutral they should do as many 'evil' acts as good ones if the grid is absolute. How long would he/she be allowed in LG? I don't know about that, really. The character I see you describing is a "balance freak." I would say the person you describe is chaotic neutral. The kind of character that keeps a checklist of everything good and bad they've ever done, just to make sure the balance in their life is kept. "Ok, I murdered that shopkeeper today, tomorrow I'll give a cookie to the kid across the street." Crazy in the head, ya know? The only people I've ever seen that are chaotic neutral are those people who either a.) are meta-gaming or b.) have a RL personality that makes playing CN easier. A neutral character, in my mind, is one who is dispassionate about doing good, and at the same time would rather just not do evil because evil acts tend to work in the character's disfavor. They are always willing to do the right thing........for a price, that is. Most beings in D&D are neutral, completely uncaring about law/chaos, good/evil...though they would obviously prefer having lawful good aligned neighbors, since lawful good people are completely predictable. I play my rogue just this way as a neutral character. He helps people because there's almost always a favor or payoff he can get out of doing it. Also, he doesn't deal with evil people because evil people are untrustworthy jerks, they tend to have good loot on them, and only other evil people tend to care what happens to them. As to the topic of the thread (sorry for the long threadjack), I too have found it somewhat annoying that even the slightest transgressions have no "out clause," so to speak. Playing my rogue, who is an extremely skilled locksmith, trap finder/disabler, and master of stealth, could possibly escape from jail, maybe spending 1-2 of the 4 TU cost. However, due to the nature of mods, he would not be allowed to escape even if he was locked up in a cardboard box and given a dagger. And living in the Pale, where if a Pholtan catches you doing anything wrong then you'll find yourself on the wrong side of a new dawn camp, it's especially unpleasant.
Lupo 04-24-07, 03:02 AM	Bah, Ahlissans are all closet Hextorites anyway...Kill em all! yea :angelhide in secret we all worship hextor, at least ;) now, the good part of being in an "evil" ruled region; with enough influence OR money you can wiggle out of punishmemt sometimes - the hextorites tend to see bribes as an insult but there are still the followers of zilchus . . . . :smirk: those characters who don't have the basic wits to follow the laws of the region they are in (at least when there is a chance that anyone notices) should either be sure not to get caught or just deserve it. a player who claims "but you know, my character doesn't have to act lawful, because he comes from a chaotic country" will learn this the hard way :rolleyes: and sometimes players just let their characters perform silly acts - totally in line with the character but just plain silly :D like leaving a signed note in a shipment of shady items, deliverable to someone in power and rumored to be a necromant :looloo: ciao martin m.
King Kashue 04-24-07, 03:36 AM	a player who claims "but you know, my character doesn't have to act lawful, because he comes from a chaotic country" will learn this the hard way :rolleyes: Eh, my CN Onnwal character has found the "kill all the Hextorites chasing him" plan to be exceedingly effective in practice during his travels in Ahlissa :D
Madfox11 04-24-07, 03:51 AM	As to the topic of the thread (sorry for the long threadjack), I too have found it somewhat annoying that even the slightest transgressions have no "out clause," so to speak. Playing my rogue, who is an extremely skilled locksmith, trap finder/disabler, and master of stealth, could possibly escape from jail, maybe spending 1-2 of the 4 TU cost. However, due to the nature of mods, he would not be allowed to escape even if he was locked up in a cardboard box and given a dagger. And living in the Pale, where if a Pholtan catches you doing anything wrong then you'll find yourself on the wrong side of a new dawn camp, it's especially unpleasant. Crime and punishment is something that is the responsibility of each region. In Ahlissa you can use Diplomacy and Profession (barister) to reduce the penalty. The punishment already tends to be much lighter than makes sense simply because it is assumed the adventurer eventually escapes or bribes his way out (though services). As other have said it is impossible in LG to deal with it completely fairly. We don't know the skills of every PC, we don't want to spend to resources on unlikely things (and the players don't either because it means less adventures) and we don't want to spend an entire game slot about *one* PC dodging the law at the expense of the other players on the table. IC we simply reason that eventually you walk into those high level NPC looking for a handsome reward. Just look at it from the bright side: your rogue might get caught again and his thumbs being removed as punishment to prevent him picking those locks again or the wizard who got his tongue cut out in addition to the thumbs to prevent spells being cast.
Mystical_Tutor 04-24-07, 11:06 AM	The question is ... 'why is punishment automatic?' Time. Unless that is the main point of the module Crime/punishment is a sub-plot. One which sucks up time. For the sake of a balanced mod, predetermining how much time it will take provides planning space for the main objective of the mod. If you have a potentially time consuming sub-plot available you may never get to that final battle where the +5 shocking burst bastard sword is. There are certainly players that would much rather enjoy the challenge of thwarting the 'powers that be' for the sake of a war story (and more power to them--nothing against that) than plodding through the dungeon looking for the lost cufflinks. Maybe some mods need to be written that provide that challenge. Automatically throw everyone in jail and build the plot from there. On the other hand, writing a mod that provides good playability for both a main plot and a sub-plot will take a lot of additional effort in order to make it worth while, so why bother with it?
Timlagor 04-24-07, 12:25 PM	When your only goal is to escape the fight, you can 'win' some awfully tough encounters ...well many PCs can. Clearly the Wizards with DDoor and Teleport have something of an advantage over the Dwarven Defender in this regard (but he can still own a Cloak of the Mountebank and a rIng of Invisibility). I think Ahlyssa handles these things very well (though there should probably be an expiry date or at least degrading of the Wanted Status over time). I do think instances of "You are automatically caught" should be resisted (just like "You are automatically surprised") and GMs who don't know should have it rammed down their throats that "Box Text" is not sacrosanct but should be adjusted to fit the actual circumstances (it says so in every adventure boilerplate if you need to prove it). I also find it very aggravating to have a module say "the guards turn up at the end of the fight" (or X rounds after the end of the fight). They should turn up a fixed (or random) period after the beginning of the combat because that's when the alarm would be raised (people would start shouting for them). I think I've seen one module where the guards turn up "4 roudns after the combat starts" but at least a dozen where they arrive just as the PCs win.
Al 04-24-07, 12:35 PM	FYI, The Grand March has "Wanted" AR's if you choose to resist arrest. You may have to ask for the AR, and they may have to get a copy from the Triad, but I have seen a couple handed out in recent play. One was to an out-of-region player and the other was for a PC whose player was moving the following week. So, at least in some regions, it's not an automatic sentence. Al
Lupo 04-24-07, 04:02 PM	When your only goal is to escape the fight, you can 'win' some awfully tough encounters ...well many PCs can. Clearly the Wizards with DDoor and Teleport have something of an advantage over the Dwarven Defender in this regard (but he can still own a Cloak of the Mountebank and a rIng of Invisibility). I think Ahlyssa handles these things very well (though there should probably be an expiry date or at least degrading of the Wanted Status over time). I do think instances of "You are automatically caught" should be resisted (just like "You are automatically surprised") and GMs who don't know should have it rammed down their throats that "Box Text" is not sacrosanct but should be adjusted to fit the actual circumstances (it says so in every adventure boilerplate if you need to prove it). I also find it very aggravating to have a module say "the guards turn up at the end of the fight" (or X rounds after the end of the fight). They should turn up a fixed (or random) period after the beginning of the combat because that's when the alarm would be raised (people would start shouting for them). I think I've seen one module where the guards turn up "4 roudns after the combat starts" but at least a dozen where they arrive just as the PCs win. the ahlissa "wanted" aka "committed serious crime" AR expires after one year (real time), unless there are aggravating circumstances (that must be either in a specific AR or with triad contact). the punishment especially "banishment" of course continue to be in effect - until a character earns a favor with a local influence to lessen the punishment. ciao martin m.
bitznarf 04-24-07, 04:25 PM	the ahlissa "wanted" aka "committed serious crime" AR expires after one year (real time), unless there are aggravating circumstances (that must be either in a specific AR or with triad contact). the punishment especially "banishment" of course continue to be in effect - until a character earns a favor with a local influence to lessen the punishment. ciao martin m. I like the look of that system. It allows for both immediate punishment should the characters accept that, or access to political favors to get the whole thing swept under the rug if you will.
Madfox11 04-25-07, 03:48 AM	I like the look of that system. It allows for both immediate punishment should the characters accept that, or access to political favors to get the whole thing swept under the rug if you will. It works perfectly well in Ahlissa because on average the authorities are corrupt enough for it and even there are some crimes that just cannot be forgiven. I can imagine that in a region like Veluna that would be kind of odd. In Sunndi for example, political favor can be used to remove or reduce lesser crimes (those that fall under county laws), but definitely not for the major crimes (the king's laws). Of course, outside expected events in adventures I only know of a hanful of PCs that even got into trouble with the law. I think most players realize fully well that such behaviour is going to distract from the actual adventure which is not going to make you popular with your fellow players. Even when I ran/played VTF meta-regionals set in Ket did none of the PCs even risked a confrontation with the law and they all used non-lethal damage.
Vamroc 04-25-07, 11:25 AM	It occurred to me today that a lot of mods seem to assume that the PC(s) will accept whatever penalties are placed on them by the authorities in a region if they get caught doing something 'bad'. For example you get caught killing someone in Zeir-i-Zeif, generally considered a bad thing by those in charge. Why exactly do the PCs have to accept the punishment, whatever form it may be in (TU cost, gold, etc)? Is it because of the modular approach of LG, the way a mod only goes so far, and if there were ways to break out of jail a mod could easily take more than 4 hours to play? What thoughts do people have on the subject? It's very possible to break out of a prison in a mod. To do so is also a crime and the trick is to break out and not get cought. Then you must escape the city while being hunted by the Knights of the Watch. Or what ever law enforcement oganization is tracking you. Then once you escape YOU CAN NEVER RETURN if you try breaking out of jail in Greyhawk or Keoland you might as well make a new charactor. You also run a serious risk of guards killing you on sight. In some cases you can bribe guards but that's a crime to and it often leaves you with a hefty chunk of money missing at the end of the mod. This is why it's better to just go with the flow spend the TU's and pay the fine. Some mods even reward the PC if he/she get arrested but I would't go around commiting crimes to find out.
AOSOL 05-01-07, 12:01 PM	I think you can bribe your way out of most situations in Greyhawk; I have once :D I told the Guards that showed up to forget who I am and you can have the remaining items on "these" criminals I.E. all the dead pirates on ground. and 1000 gold to split between all of you and the gold they were taking were taking life insurance and baby daddy funds. The DM ruled that because the area was morally fexiable and I made away into the night! :OMG! Dane,