Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Greyson 05-11-04, 03:55 PM	Nice article on the home page. But, creatures with Damage Reduction must still be excluded from low APL scenarios. Prudence and reason dictate that DR is best reserved fro high-level play. Given the example in the article, it can get pretty expensive for a PC to prepare for the possibility of a creature with DR. That's less money for healing potions, armor upgrades and weapon improvements. And, there is not a whole lot of gold for PCs at the lower APLs, anyway. And what about incremental challenges? There will be no new challenges for PCs if we are trying to throw everything at them and the kitchen sink at APL 2. Save DR for later. It can be used as a new challenge for higher APLs. I cannot conceive of a need pressing enough to induce one to include a creature with DR in an APL 2 or 4 scenario. You just never know who will be sitting at your table at a LG event, usually. At home our players can pick and choose among their PCs. But, at a Living Greyhawk event, people have characters ready that need to play a particular scenario. There is less latitude for planning at a LG table. Don't doom a party because a writer wants to demonstrate a creative or erudite streak which he or she doesn't have. Keep DR out of the low-level adventures. If players are saying that it is unfair, listen to them. Don't railroad them with platitudes about myriad options. Listen to the players - some of them have been playing D&D for a long time. And, they might be good at assessing a given approach or rule - and suggest a better alternative.
Steve_MND 05-11-04, 04:37 PM	With all due respect, your post here sounds like the sort of comments that Steve C. was specifically writing to refute. He took every one of your arguments and explained the faulty reasoning behind it. You seem to be saying, "Sure, Steve C. gave all these reasons why appropriate-CR encounters with DR creatures are in fact not all that tough to get around, but I'm going to say it's unfair anyway." As long as it's handled responsibly (for example, nothing like DR/adamantine or anything higher than DR 5/whatever or so), going up against many DR creatures is actually _easier_ at low levels. At the low levels it's obscenely easy and relatively cheap to carry around an otherwise-unremarkable spare silver longsword or cold iron mace for those most common DRs, and since you you haven't invested copious amounts of feats and money into a specialized weapon yet, you don't really lose much efficiency in using backup weapons.
kenobi65 05-11-04, 05:11 PM	I have to agree with Steve M. I think that low-level DR can provide a good (but not overwhelming) challenge. Including (and beyond) what Steve C. lists in the article, there's plenty of ways in which most of the classes, even at low levels, can cope with DR *without* the expenditure of extra GP (though, a couple of flasks of Alchemist's Fire or holy water are probably a good investment regardless). Note that not all of these will help against every DR opponent (esp. undead ones), but knowing that this is the way the Circle is thinking about this, forewarned is forearmed... Barbarian -- Rage ability (pump up that Str, do more damage), Power Attack Bard -- Inspire Courage gives +1 to you and your allies' weapon damage (every little bit helps); Sleep and Hypnotism can take some opponents out of the fight entirely. Cleric -- Inflict Light Wounds and Magic Weapon are the obvious spells, but Bless, Divine Favor, Hide From Undead, and Protection from Evil may be useful, too, as might turning undead. Druid -- Magic Fang (on your animal companion), Magic Stone, Produce Flame, Shillelagh can all help bypass some DR. But, if you happen to be outdoors, Entangle can end a fight before it starts. Fighter -- As Steve C. points out, many LG fighters use a two-handed weapon. With a 16 STR and a greatsword, you're doing an average of 11 points of damage a round anyway. Add in Power Attack, and maybe a buff spell or effect from another party member, and you can beat the opponent into the ground anyway. Monk -- Probably among the more limited in what he can do at low levels against these kinds of opponents. However, Flurry of Blows does let you get more strikes in (sort of nibbling the bad guy to death), and Stunning Blow might be useful in slowing the opponent down. Paladin -- In addition to likely being able to dish out enough damage in melee to overcome DR 5, Smite Evil might be of some help. Ranger -- Probably not as well-equipped as the other fighting classes against DR, as they may be less likely to be using a two-handed melee weapon (or to have the STR and skills to optimize it). Might be best to invest in silver arrows. :) Rogue -- Though it won't work against all DR opponents (i.e., undead), Sneak Attack can provide the extra damage needed to overcome DR. Sorcerer -- Magic Missile, baby. Lots of 'em. But, beyond that...Protection from Evil, Hypnotism, Sleep, Burning Hands, Shocking Grasp, Enlarge Person, Magic Weapon, could all be of great help against a DR opponent. Wizard -- as sorcerer. Though a low-level wizard's less likely to be able to dish out several Magic Missiles, he might have several different spells that might help.
Steve_MND 05-11-04, 05:42 PM	(though, a couple of flasks of Alchemist's Fire or holy water are probably a good investment regardless) Agreed. Not to go off on too much of a tangent, but almost all of the 'special materials' from the PHB (such as antitoxin, tanglefoot bags, holy water, flasks of acid, etc.) should be an absolute staple in any character's backpack, from 1st level on up to 20th, especially considering how incredibly cheap they are compared to other things. You'd be amazed at how useful even the littlest thing can be in that list...
WCrawford 05-11-04, 07:00 PM	While I understand both points, I firmly believe that creatures with material or alignment based DR should be reserved for APL 4 or higher. No more than single DR 5/magic creature should appear in an APL 2 or intro mod. The use of zombies (DR 5/Slashing) and Skeletons (DR 5/Bludgeoning) can be used at any time. Low level characters just don't have the resources to face creatures with DR at every turn.
redgamer 05-11-04, 07:40 PM	DR is only not a problem when most of the players have read an article like this and bought the consumables suggested in the article. I saw a table play one mod in particle with an encounter with something with DR 5/magic. I have no doubt that any APL 2 party without access to a spell that made their weapons magical would have face a TPK or possible worse if they tried to run away (lifelong jail sentance). Fortunately I think this came about because the monster in question had in 3.0 a CR less than half its current CR and the mod will soon be errattered. Here's to hoping mod writers always use DR in challening but still fair amounts.
Jeryl 05-12-04, 01:33 AM	I think a lot of people do not prepare enough their characters for multiple situations. The typical warrior will buy a bigger sword but never buy potions of cure or oils of magic/sylver/holy/... weapons thinking "the spell casters will do it". Of course with this kind of mentality people will get smashed by a Dr monster since the spellcasters will do the same and memorise "selfish" spells instead of the more multifonctionnal buffs. My Druid always has Faery fire (invisible monsters) and magic fang memorised. A scroll of almost every "situation-specific" spell (remove paralyse, remove poison, quench, bull strenght etc.) no player is getting killed for being unprepared at a table I play ! My fighter has his wand of cure light wounds to give the cleric, about 5 weapons, every type of oil a potion of enlarge etc. I think people should not be affraid to spend their money on more preparation instead of economising for the "bigger sword" and complain when something unexpected comes up. Even the low level characters have many options open to them, they simply need to be prepared. As for the DR, I think it's interesting to show many diffrent encounters, but year 3 mods seem to have just too many DR/adamantine monsters. Every one has his adamantine sword. There even is a 2 round mod with nothing but DR/Adamantine monsters. Different options they say ...
Southernskies 05-12-04, 06:37 AM	Of course, one fatal flaw in his argument is when the campaign staff do things like this. Look at LotGR2 Gray Hunt, an adventure optimised for first level characters had a customised zombie with DR10/Good! How they ever expected anyone to defeat the thing, I'll never know as the only way to get this is via Align Weapon, Bless Weapon both of which require Clr3 or Pal4 or to purchase Oil of Bless Weapon at 5x cost in Green Regent (500 gp!) I have also encounted this in Living Greyhawk Introductory Scenarios (for new 1st level characters only); never a good intro to a campaign.
Simpi 05-12-04, 07:59 AM	Originally posted by Southernskies I have also encounted this in Living Greyhawk Introductory Scenarios (for new 1st level characters only); never a good intro to a campaign. Amen. There is one introduction scenario with very nasty CR3 monster and incorporeal to boot!! The module offers some goodies so PCs can take it down, but it does not change the fact that it is way too powerful. Therefore I've changed to normal CR3 monster which is a bit more suitable for new players. But personally I don't think creatures with DR5/Magic are that bad even for starting adventures. Each character class gets weapons doing D6 points of damage and it would be rare indeed for any group not to have people who do at least D8+? damage. In this case they are probably all wizards and they should have spells anyway;) Personally I always prepare myself for any eventuality. My favourite one against high AC creatures is alchemist fire. As a ranger I can get my favourite enemy as a bonus as well.
Kevin Russell 05-12-04, 05:07 PM	OK, so characters should spend those hard earned gp on items to overcome damage reduction. Of course, this is assuming that there is character knowledge about what kind of creatures need what kind of thing to overcome their damage reduction. So, if you play by character knowledge instead of player knowledge, how things would a character still be carrying around? Well the tanglefoot bag and alchemist fire category, probably yes. But cold iron weapons when you have never met a fey creature before? Just some food for thought.
kenobi65 05-12-04, 05:57 PM	Originally posted by Kevin Russell Of course, this is assuming that there is character knowledge about what kind of creatures need what kind of thing to overcome their damage reduction. So, if you play by character knowledge instead of player knowledge, how things would a character still be carrying around? Well the tanglefoot bag and alchemist fire category, probably yes. But cold iron weapons when you have never met a fey creature before? Just some food for thought. I wouldn't assume that a PC comes into the game at 1st level, with no knowledge of the world. Someone (maybe more than one someone) trained that PC, and I'd think it'd be a fair assumption that some of that "knowledge" could be imparted. "Kid, remember, you gotta have a backup weapon that's silver, 'cause a normal weapon'll just bounce off a lycanthrope..."
MichaelTLH 05-13-04, 04:29 PM	What about the DR10/magic critter being attacked by 2 halflings, 2 gnomes, a dwarf and a human druid. Gnomes and halflings were fighters and my dwarf was a paladin. In an INTRO mod. *gulp* Luckily, the druid had played in one previous adventure and had scrolls of CLW... or else it would have been a TPK. The only way any of us could damage it was with a confirmed critical. Not pretty. ... and please, don't give me the argument about balanced parties being best, because it never happens at a smaller, local convention... oftimes you're stuck with what you get.
smerwin29 05-14-04, 07:47 AM	As a former Triad member and person in charge of editing modules, I just have to say one thing. When I asked for feedback on mods, the most common criticism I would get was about "overpowered monsters." It seems like every time, the feedback would be exactly the same: "That encounter was so unfair! If it wasn't for [blank], it would have been a TPK." Yet almost all the groups succeeded in one fashion or another, even though they were scared and couldn't just cakewalk through the encounter using standard-operating-procedure tactics. And in some rare instances, the party had to flee and regroup. But I think that's the point of the game, so I was glad to receive feedback like this. When the party had to "think outside the box" and draw up on unusual tactics and resources to succeed, then I knew the author and I were doing our jobs properly. Shawn
Cardinal Teplin 05-17-04, 07:14 PM	>Yet almost all the groups succeeded in one fashion or another Right, what about the ones who didn't. What about them? The problem with DR is that its an all or nothing obstacle. Either you can overcome it, or you can't. I was pretty upset when I played a 1st level introductory module, only to be trapped by a monster with DR/5 and immunity to critical. I should point that all the characters HAD to be first level and had no equipment at all. We'd scavanged some spears from the dead for weapons, and had a single scroll of magic missle. We were lucky in that we had one character with a high strength, and we had some lucky rolls. The other table were all wiped out. What a great evening they had. Two had never played LG before and I doubt we'll ever see them again. I'm not against danger in modules. Danger is good. But DR ISN'T dangerous. Either you can overcome it, or you can't. There is no element of risk. It means that either the fight is unaccountably easy, because you have the right equipment and thus the special defence isn't an issue, or it's unwinnable. Either way is dull. The result of this is, sadly, that the equipment of most 2nd level adventurers is pretty predictable. They can't afford to spend money on anything until they have their full set of DR avoiders. I can't help thinking that making all this equipment compulsory is a waste of what could otherwise be one or two levels of interesting choices. It is good to have creative challenges, but it's harder than you make out.
smerwin29 05-17-04, 09:02 PM	Originally posted by Cardinal Teplin >Yet almost all the groups succeeded in one fashion or another< Right, what about the ones who didn't. What about them? Well, they ran away and got to fight another day, or they stood in there and fought the good fight but didn't survive. I've had both happen as a player, and I really can't blame anyone but myself in both cases. >The problem with DR is that its an all or nothing obstacle. Either you can overcome it, or you can't. I was pretty upset when I played a 1st level introductory module, only to be trapped by a monster with DR/5 and immunity to critical. I should point that all the characters HAD to be first level and had no equipment at all. We'd scavanged some spears from the dead for weapons, and had a single scroll of magic missle. We were lucky in that we had one character with a high strength, and we had some lucky rolls. The other table were all wiped out. What a great evening they had. Two had never played LG before and I doubt we'll ever see them again. That's not a problem with a creature with DR. That's a problem with a party having no weapons AND fighting a creature with DR. >I'm not against danger in modules. Danger is good. But DR ISN'T dangerous. Either you can overcome it, or you can't. There is no element of risk. It means that either the fight is unaccountably easy, because you have the right equipment and thus the special defence isn't an issue, or it's unwinnable. Either way is dull. You are correct. DR is not dangerous. Some of the most fun I've had as a player is being able to defeat a monster even though we didn't have the weapons to overcome the DR. It took a lot of teamwork and unusual tactics, but we did it. >The result of this is, sadly, that the equipment of most 2nd level adventurers is pretty predictable. They can't afford to spend money on anything until they have their full set of DR avoiders. I can't help thinking that making all this equipment compulsory is a waste of what could otherwise be one or two levels of interesting choices. It is good to have creative challenges, but it's harder than you make out. I agree with you that some encounters are not fun because they are completely unfair. And in some cases, this may absolutely have to do with DR (or a number of other special powers or abilities). However, I really don't see DR itself as unfair. At even lower-middle levels it can normally be overcome by the fighter types, so it is only really a problem at the lowest levels, and even then, if placed in the encounter with care, it can provide a wonderfully unique challenge. It's strange, because I almost never see people complain when a creature has an unbeatable SR, forcing the spellcasters to resort to contributing in different ways. Yet the players running the BDFs seem to get horribly upset if they are called up to do anything other than hack something to bits. Ah well. Regards, Shawn
Cardinal Teplin 05-17-04, 10:14 PM	Well, when I ran into a night Hag at 5th level I knew who to blame, and it wasn't me. It was an LG game under 3.0, and there was noone in the party who could actually hurt it. At all. We managed to grapple it, and tried to strangle it, but noone could do any actual damage. Eventually we just had to leave, because noone could take any effective actions. It was a real comedown from what had been an interesting and exciting adventure. I had assumed that this was a one-off mistake, until I ran into another Night Hag, this time at APL 4! Again, totally untouchable by anyone in the party, so we basically quit the adventure there. Noone actually died, we could all run away, but the quest was over. I've seen DR ruin several otherwise good LG games. I've never seen DR make a positive contribution to a low-level game. >However, I really don't see DR itself as unfair. At even lower-middle levels it can normally be overcome by the fighter types But this is a living game. We don't control who turns up to our convention table. What if there _are_ no fighter types? >It's strange, because I almost never see people complain when a creature has an unbeatable SR, forcing the spellcasters to resort to contributing in different ways. That may be because there are a great many spells that don't allow SR, and more still that you cast on your own side and not the enemy. >Yet the players running the BDFs seem to get horribly upset if they are called up to do anything other than hack something to bits. Not in my experience. Most fighter-types that I have run into are quite prepared to get creative, and I love a good non-standard fight. But DR at low level is a cheap and lazy way to do it, and doesn't really work. The results are better when writers use a little more imagination. The reason why people complain about DR at low level is that its so often deadly even if you are creative. I've killed an athach with a length of pipe, some glue, and a weasel. I've attacked foes with benches, tapestries and small bags of flour, rolled to sunder staircases and belt buckles, saved the party with a profession (sailor) check, and stormed a castle with the help of some impromptu carpentry, a nun's outfit, and a heavily bribed local badger. But none of these occured because of DR encounters at low level. When I see a yet another half-gollum or night hag, I just get very very depressed. Because yet again whether we live or die now depends on our equipment lists, not our wits.
Samwise 05-18-04, 12:58 PM	But none of these occured because of DR encounters at low level. When I see a yet another half-gollum or night hag, I just get very very depressed. Because yet again whether we live or die now depends on our equipment lists, not our wits. The thing is, your equipment list is determined by your wits. If you are unprepared for anything, I'd have to say you didn't think carefully and prepare properly.
Cardinal Teplin 05-18-04, 01:41 PM	>The thing is, your equipment list is determined by your wits. If you are unprepared for anything, I'd have to say you didn't think carefully and prepare properly. Only if you assume part of the challenge of playing to be building a character than can take on anything. A bit like Magic the Gathering really. While its a nice concept, it doesn't help me bring new players into the game. Its also not what previous posters meant by 'encouraging creative play'. It just makes it compulsorty to own an adamantite weapon. That's not wits. More to the point, Night Hags in 3.0 needed +3 weapons. Half-gollums need adamantine. Many low level characters have access to neither.
Samwise 05-18-04, 02:03 PM	An individual character is not expected to be able to handle everything. A group of six characters is. There is more to creative play than just buying expensive equipment. Way back when LG started I posted a nice list of simple ways to deal with certain situations. There are a number of ways of getting past DR that have been posted. If you refuse to employ any of them then the failure is on your part, not that of the designer. As for a Night Hag at APL 4, I'd have to know the specifics to know if it was unbalanced or not. If the module is retired, which one was it in?
WCrawford 05-18-04, 07:22 PM	Originally posted by Samwise An individual character is not expected to be able to handle everything. A group of six characters is. There is more to creative play than just buying expensive equipment. Way back when LG started I posted a nice list of simple ways to deal with certain situations. There are a number of ways of getting past DR that have been posted. If you refuse to employ any of them then the failure is on your part, not that of the designer. Most of the ways to get past DR are out of reach for characters under 4th level. DR creatures should NOT be predominate in intro mods or APL2 mods. This applies to incoporeal creatures as well. Skeletons (DR 5/Bludgeoning) and Zombies (DR 5/Slashing) are perfetly fine at low levels. A single dretch (DR 5/cold iron or good)or imp (DR 5/good or silver) can add to the climatic battle in a low level mod. One DR 5/magic creature during a low level mod is totally acceptable. This is all reasonable for low level characters to face, but creaures with DR x/Adamantine, DR of 10 or better or masses of the types of creatures listed above are not.
Samwise 05-18-04, 07:49 PM	Well let us be specific. Intro, APL 2, APL 4, and APL 6 are all very different creatures. No, creatures with DR other than Slashing or Bludgeoning don't really need to be in Intro mods. I'll agree with that. Fiends requiring Silver or Cold Iron or a Good Aligned Weapon are generally not out of line in an APL 2 module, mostly because the ones of the CR generally have little more DR 5/x. That is simple enough for any party to bypass. Likewise at APL 4, DR 5/x is typically easier to overcome than various energy resistances. Once you hit APL 6, where 5th level characters should be, where many 4th level characters aspire to, and where too many 3rd level characters were hanging out, anything should be going. Aside from resources you should have the experience to overcome most anything at this point. There is one thing I'm surprised no one has mentioned though. The one thing overwhelmingly more lethal to low level characters than any DR, and often disproportionately dangerous to mid level characters. That is Hardness. That can be bypassed by almost nothing, and can result in the total devastation of a party without a heavy damage dealer. Still, just as I've seen a group that expected to die deal with an encounter with DR 10/- creatures, even this can be handled if a group learns the game and plays well. The question is, will they?
Cardinal Teplin 05-18-04, 11:30 PM	>There is more to creative play than just buying expensive equipment. "Indeed so. I'm not the one who said that "The thing is, your equipment list is determined by your wits. If you are unprepared for anything, I'd have to say you didn't think carefully and prepare properly. Creative play doesn't need DR. DR doesn't, in itself, promote creative play. >There are a number of ways of getting past DR that have been posted. If you refuse to employ any of them then the failure is on your part, not that of the designer. Let's see you apply one to the two examples I gave. >If the module is retired, which one was it in? Still active, I'm afraid. >Fiends requiring Silver or Cold Iron or a Good Aligned Weapon are generally not out of line in an APL 2 module, mostly because the ones of the CR generally have little more DR 5/x. That is simple enough for any party to bypass. Its a stretch. Take a starting party with no high strength fighters. You're kinda relying on what may be very few spells. One fiend, maybe... >Likewise at APL 4, DR 5/x is typically easier to overcome than various energy resistances. eh??? Who cares about a creature having fire resistance or cold resistance? DR much more difficult to handle. >That is Hardness. That can be bypassed by almost nothing, and can result in the total devastation of a party without a heavy damage dealer. Sorry, what difference are you referring to between hardness and a DR you can't bypass? I don't see the distinction you are trying to make here... >Still, just as I've seen a group that expected to die deal with an encounter with DR 10/- creatures, even this can be handled if a group learns the game and plays well. The question is, will they? At APL 2 they may reasonably be expected to have never played the game before. And having been killed off by a monster that simply ignored most of the abilities they have only just learned to use, they don't always come back. Bottom line, DR in low level adventures is driving potential players away from the game. Yes, you csan deal with it. I can deal with it. But then I'm a highly experienced munchkin with no expectation that the module writer will understand the difference between a challenging adventure and a deadly one. The modules are getting better, but DR at low levels is still dispiratingly common.
Tungar 05-19-04, 05:31 AM	The numerical part of a creature’s damage reduction is the amount of hit points the creature ignores from normal attacks. Grapple is a special attack. There are always ways to pass damage reduction. Tungar.
Samwise 05-19-04, 12:31 PM	Originally posted by Cardinal Teplin Indeed so. I'm not the one who said that "The thing is, your equipment list is determined by your wits. If you are unprepared for anything, I'd have to say you didn't think carefully and prepare properly. And there is a difference between expensive equipment and ordinary equipment. It doesn't take much creativity and cleverness to use a 100,000 gp magic item to trash everything in existence. It does to use a 10 gp standard equipment item to do so. Creative play doesn't need DR. DR doesn't, in itself, promote creative play.[?QUOTE] Nobody has suggested that it did. You however have stated that DR destroys creative play, and that is clearly wrong. [QUOTE]Let's see you apply one to the two examples I gave. Without knowing the modules, I can't. Still active, I'm afraid. Then I can apply this: Somone broke the rules. Night Hags are a CR 9 creature. They should not appear in an APL 4 module without some significant limiting factor. If an author included one, and a Triad approved it, they made a mistake. This is not a failure of the CR system in regards to DR. It is a failure of the author and editors to properly apply the rules for adventure design, or a failure of a DM to properly apply whatever limiting circumstance modifiers there were to the encounter. Its a stretch. Take a starting party with no high strength fighters. You're kinda relying on what may be very few spells. One fiend, maybe... Not in the least. With a d8 damage weapon and a +2 Str modifier, you will do as much as 5 damage per hit against the creature. Given the poor attack bonus and damage of something like a Dretch, defeating even a group should not be an issue for a low level party. eh??? Who cares about a creature having fire resistance or cold resistance? DR much more difficult to handle. Read your previous reply. Even minor energy resistance can make most low level spells totally useless, particularly if the creature can make its saves. It can be nearly impossible to overcome by a low level party, and will negate one of the best items for use against difficult creatures, flaming oil. Sorry, what difference are you referring to between hardness and a DR you can't bypass? I don't see the distinction you are trying to make here... Nothing overcomes Hardness. Spells and certain purchases can overcome DR. At APL 2 they may reasonably be expected to have never played the game before. And having been killed off by a monster that simply ignored most of the abilities they have only just learned to use, they don't always come back. Which would be why I suggested not using such at such level. You seem to be arguing with someone else, or at least trying to refute someone else. So far you have not really addressed anything I've said. Bottom line, DR in low level adventures is driving potential players away from the game. I haven't seen that at all. Yes, you csan deal with it. I can deal with it. But then I'm a highly experienced munchkin with no expectation that the module writer will understand the difference between a challenging adventure and a deadly one. The modules are getting better, but DR at low levels is still dispiratingly common. Maybe as a DM you should take some time to suggest alternative courses of action to players. Or remind them of some of their options. Or advise them not to play up. Or advise them to try a different module. Or to get a different party composition. There are many ways to avoid such situations. How many have you tried?
RLWilde 05-19-04, 05:38 PM	Originally posted by Cardinal Teplin >There are a number of ways of getting past DR that have been posted. If you refuse to employ any of them then the failure is on your part, not that of the designer. Let's see you apply one to the two examples I gave. >If the module is retired, which one was it in? Still active, I'm afraid. Were the encounters originally written for 3.0 or 3.5? They may just need to brought to the attention of whomever is responsible for the scenario(s) for rebalancing. >Fiends requiring Silver or Cold Iron or a Good Aligned Weapon are generally not out of line in an APL 2 module, mostly because the ones of the CR generally have little more DR 5/x. That is simple enough for any party to bypass. Its a stretch. Take a starting party with no high strength fighters. You're kinda relying on what may be very few spells. One fiend, maybe... A silver weapon can be had for 30 gp or less; a cold iron weapon costs less. Any character who is not brand new can buy these. Are there any fiends which could be expected to be in APL 2 that require "Good", as opposed to "silver or Good" or "cold iron or Good"? It is true that they would be more of a challenge for a party of all brand new characters... but an "APL 2" party could be expected to have them.
Cardinal Teplin 05-20-04, 12:04 PM	>>Creative play doesn't need DR. DR doesn't, in itself, promote creative play.[?QUOTE] >Nobody has suggested that it did. You however have stated that DR destroys creative play, and that is clearly wrong. No, I didn't. You've made that up. Right. Slow down. I'm arguing a position, not against you in particular. That position is that DR is overused in low-level adventures, and, specifically, that the arguement that players' views about this should be ignored because most of them survive anyway. The arguments I'm trying to counter, that have been raised since, are 1) that the problem is not DR but lack of 'creative play' 2) That the problem is that players don't buy the right equipment. Noone has yet countered the idea that skeletons and zombies are ok in a low-level setting. You also seem to agree that DR/10 shouldn't feature in an intro module. Noone has commented on my example of a half-golum in an intro mod with no spell or equipment, but you have implied that our defeat of our 5th level party at the hands of a night hag was entirely the players' fault for not buying the right equipment. I don't want to detail too much on an active module, but let's assume a forest clearing at night, no settlements, rivers or other interesting features nearby. How does a 5th level party deal with a night hag if they don't have access to the appropriate weaponry. I can see your point about very minor creatures with DR, such as dretches. Since they can't kill a party quickly, it is more reasonable for them to have DR and get chisled away. However, I would suggest that more damaging foes shouldn't have DR. My example of half-golums, since they do a great deal of damage, have DR 5/adamantite, would thus still be a problem, and really should be avoided in an APL 2 adventure. As for hardness, yes, I would class hardness as the same sort of problem, and again should be avoided at low levels. >>Bottom line, DR in low level adventures is driving potential players away from the game. >I haven't seen that at all I have. Hence my frustration. It's really easy to just assume that everyone with a different experience from yourself is just doing something wrong, but it's rarely true. Is my experience of losing players to DR at low levels something that should be taken into account, or something that should be ignored? >Maybe as a DM you should take some time to suggest alternative courses of action to players. Hard to do without, well, cheating. I do what I can. Of course, I'm not always the GM. >Or remind them of some of their options. Difficult, again. Rules options are fine, and I do do that. It doesn't always help, because DR is such an all-or-nothing situation. MY players are, in general, quite a creative bunch. >Or advise them not to play up. They don't. (generally) >Or advise them to try a different module. So it does make a bad module? That was more or less my argument. >Or to get a different party composition. We have the players we have. Not much I can do to change who is playing when. >There are many ways to avoid such situations. How many have you tried? All of them. I have had some partial sucess in mitigating a wide variety of module problems. I'd rather not have to do all this. Maybe, rather than pushing all this onto the GM, we just should avoid having bad balancing of modules in the first place? All of this is, of course, besides the point. Whatever a group can do to mitigate the problem doesn't stop it being a problem.
Cardinal Teplin 05-20-04, 12:09 PM	> A silver weapon can be had for 30 gp or less; a cold iron weapon costs less. Any character who is not brand new can buy these. Unless, of course, you live in one of the regions where such items would have to be masterwork as well...
Steve_MND 05-20-04, 12:32 PM	"Unless, of course, you live in one of the regions where such items would have to be masterwork as well..." There are no such regions, as silvered weapons are freely available to anybody according the LGCS. Or at least, there aren't supposed to be. Now, there may be regions that in-character, for whatever reason, have laws against owning silvered weapons that aren't MW (how bizarre! What region is that, and what is the justification? I'm guessing maybe Bandit Kingdoms), but that's just regional flavor. If that's the case, the regional authors should be well aware of the fact that a larger number of low-level PCs will not have as open access to silver weapons, and take that into account when they write their mods.
AngusSmith 05-24-04, 05:26 PM	Originally posted by Samwise Nothing overcomes Hardness. Spells and certain purchases can overcome DR. Adamantine weapons ignore hardness of less than 20. Angus
Samwise 05-24-04, 05:35 PM	Originally posted by AngusSmith Adamantine weapons ignore hardness of less than 20. Angus I meant that in the context of items generally available to low level characters. Anyone who can afford an Adamantine weapon should not have any issues with any DR, Hardness, or Energy Resistance.
SgtHulka 06-02-04, 10:51 PM	Originally posted by WCrawford Most of the ways to get past DR are out of reach for characters under 4th level. DR creatures should NOT be predominate in intro mods or APL2 mods. This applies to incoporeal creatures as well. That's freaking hilarious. I just started an LG character at a convention over the weekend, my first time playing 3.5. At my first table were three other guys who hadn't played D&D since 2nd edition. Clearly, we were all complete newbs. And we played two adventures that day. Adventure one, 3rd Encounter: Ghost. Or Spirit. Or something like that. In any case, incorporeal. Adventure two, 3rd Encounter: Were-rat. We didn't whine or belly-ache, even after half of our party was sent fleeing in panic from the Ghost (or Spirit or whatever) and that our clerics and wizards were close to empty. Instead, our friend the Monk proved how bad-arse he was standing up with multiple will saves while the only other guys still in the room with him -- a wiz and elderly cleric -- bravely set up flanking positions for him. I mean, a freaking Monk. Hardly a power-gamer type character. Did it suck when incorporeal kicked in? Sure. Would it have ended up in a TPK if the Monk hadn't gotten lucky? No, because half our party had already fled. The next encounter, with an AC of 22 but no special abilities, proved MUCH more difficult to handle. The second adventure had such a blatant clue in it that half the people at our table refused to believe that we'd actually be up against a lycanthrope -- it was really too obvious. None the less, we all stocked up on silver weapons "just in case", and were-rat quickly went splat. Sure a couple of guys got Lycanthropy, but a little beladonna, a few will saves later, a little loss of strength, and then you're feeling good as new.
Cardinal Teplin 06-03-04, 08:22 PM	This isn't about what we as players can or can't handle. I'm a dedicated powergamer, and can survive even badly designed adventures. It's about good adventure design. And having deadly creatures with DR in an APL 2 adventure is too often bad design. I would prefer it id PCs run away because they are losing a fight, not because they can't contribute to it. I'm trying to pick out some monsters for my own adventure for APL 2. I'm trying to picture a starting party, and what kind of challenges they would find interesting. I could, given the CR system, introduce challenges that would most likely kill them, or at least kill some of them. I don't think, however, that that would be a fun adventure to play. Similarly, I don't want to make things too easy, particularly if they have anything like the high strength fighter we had in my first LG party. So far its going well, although I'm desperately trying to shoehorn a velociraptor in there, sadly without sucess.
hustonjj 06-03-04, 10:30 PM	Originally posted by Cardinal Teplin It's about good adventure design. And having deadly creatures with DR in an APL 2 adventure is too often bad design. I would prefer it id PCs run away because they are losing a fight, not because they can't contribute to it. I've said it before, and will continue saying it. The only useless character (one who can not contribute) is one where the player has given up. Don't waste my time (as a player) presenting a module designed for people who expect and demand that their primary weapon choice solve every problem. You, as a player, succeed or fail based on the combination of your ability to come up with responses to situations you didn't expect and didn't plan for, and the judge's ability to react to true innovation. I played the original LG module (River of Blood) with a group of all 1st level characters, without any special eqiupment, or even a solid understanding of D&D 3.0. We beat the Were-Rat because we looked at options, opportunities that the rules provided that we had never looked at in any detail, tried them out, and, regardless of the risk to the individual characters, each of us stuck by the roles we had formed within the TEAM. When people complain about facing 3.5 DR critters as 1st level characters, I chuckle. Most of them know the rules MUCH better than we did, the critters at hand tend to be SOFTER, and EASIER to kill than the Were-Rat was, and they all seem to have the attitude that they have to be able to handle the critter alone. The group of PCs are supposed to be a TEAM. The name "party" doesn't mean that this is a group who drinks together. It means that this is a group of people who have (for whatever reason) chosen to trust each other with their lives. They depend on each other because they expect to be depended on. You know, part of that whole Heroic feel the campaign is SUPPOSED to have in every module. Jeff Huston Spobody Necial
WCrawford 06-04-04, 06:17 AM	Jeff, let me make sure I understand your position. DR for 1st level characters is 100% appropriate? If I'm understanding you correctly, an intro mod or APL 2 mod could have the following 3 encounters (max combined EL of 12) and you'd consider it fine for 1st level characters. 1 babau (EL 6 - DR 10/cold iron or good) 1 5 hit die yeth hound (EL 4 - DR 10/silver) 1 bugbear zombie (EL 2 - DR 5/slashing)
hustonjj 06-04-04, 07:39 AM	Originally posted by WCrawford Jeff, let me make sure I understand your position. DR for 1st level characters is 100% appropriate? It is just one more problem to overcome. A properly built encounter doesn't make DR any better or worse than reach on a strong combat monster the PCs can't match. Both require the PCs do something besides the same thing the players always do. If I'm understanding you correctly, an intro mod or APL 2 mod could have the following 3 encounters (max combined EL of 12) and you'd consider it fine for 1st level characters. 1 babau (EL 6 - DR 10/cold iron or good) 1 5 hit die yeth hound (EL 4 - DR 10/silver) 1 bugbear zombie (EL 2 - DR 5/slashing) You will have to explain to me how my statements that there's not anything unusual in the use of DR translates into supporting APL+5 encounters. Heck, I would think an INTRO mod was supposed to be set up so as to not make character death likely. IIRC, APL+3 is the point where you are supposed to EXPECT a character to die, so an EL 4 encounter would be a little much for an intro mod, DR or not. You changed the question, note how this response addresses the new one, not the one previously under discussion. Now, at an APL2, non-intro module, I would STILL avoid the EL6 encounter, as it is just begging for a PC death, but the EL4 encounter could well survive the selection process. Honestly, though, I have no idea what kind of story would support a single yeth hound as a reasonable encounter, EL or not. A pack of lesser dogs that change types as the APL advances would seem more appropriate. Then again, I'm a big supported of more, weaker opponents instead of fewer, more powerful ones. Simple economics, really. Weaker opponents are more available, and so should be encountered much more frequently than stronger ones. Jeff Huston Not quite so easily mis-directed
Cardinal Teplin 06-04-04, 09:56 AM	>I've said it before, and will continue saying it. And I will continue to disagree with you. >The only useless character (one who can not contribute) is one where the player has given up. How about addressing some of the examples from earlier in the thread? Night hag, 5th level party, in a forest clearing. Let's take the example of: A sorceress. A high strength half-orc fighter A gnomish druid A cleric A sorceror/ranger/rogue A monk All characters are 5th level. None of the characters have ever had access to anything that could penetrate the creature's DR, and the only one who can penetrate the creature's magic resistance is the sorceress on a natural 20. Assume full spells, but special items like alchemist's fire and acid will have partly been used, so assume less than you might reasonably carry. Go on, innovate. Tell us what we should have done. The sad thing is that I agree with you on the importance of innovation. I have a very innovative group, and they come up with some very good ideas that help them enormously. But as long as you stick to the absurb blanket statements like the one above, I'm going to have to disagree with you.
hustonjj 06-04-04, 06:13 PM	Originally posted by Cardinal Teplin How about addressing some of the examples from earlier in the thread? Because they are improper examples? Because they start from assumptions that are patantly false in the LG campaign? Because it is impossible to argue about what the correct action set is without specifically detailing everything both sides does, and the patter of recommendation and counter can continue beyond even YOUR interest in proving me wrong? Night hag, 5th level party, in a forest clearing. Let's take the example of: A sorceress. A high strength half-orc fighter A gnomish druid A cleric A sorceror/ranger/rogue A monk All characters are 5th level. None of the characters have ever had access to anything that could penetrate the creature's DR, So, I'm supposed to start from the supposition that a group of 5th level LG characters has never had access to cold iron or the Magic Weapon spell? While it is quite possible that neither of the Sorcerers happen to know Magic Weapon, the Cleric eliminates that consideration. In the LG campaign (that's the board this discussion is under, you'll notice) every PC who has completed ONE LG adventure has access to Cold Iron. 5th level characters certainly have access to it without question or effort. In other words, you have set up a patently false premise. Wait, I said that already, didn't I? Now, if you want to start with something more like "There are no unsundered magic weapons in the party, no unused Magic Weapon variant spells available in the party, and for some reason, everyone in this advanced level group has refused to purchase a readily available weapon designed to overcome a fairly common DR", then at last we have managed to artifically create the situation you want to discuss. Guess what? The first, simplest answer involves the phrase "Suck it up." The fighter and the monk have to grapple the hag. The rogue can experiment with Sneak Attacks, or simply join the grapple. With enough cooperative grappling, she is pinned, and can be coup de'graced. Everybody else attacks into the grapple, and I mean EVERYBODY. A couple can be simply assisting (like the sorcerer, who is unlikely to do 10 points on her own). Yes, that is the simple, default answer that involves NO innovation. Innovation has to start appearing based on the hag's spell use or other actions. And guess what? You picked an APL+3 encounter. DMG, Page 49, Left column, first full paragraph, fourth and fifth sentences: "By contrast, an encounter of even one or two levels higher than the party level might tax them to their limit, although with luck they might be able to take on two such encounters before needing to recover. Remember that when the EL is higher than the party level, the chance for PC fatality rises dramatically." In other words, you have taken an encounter that we are told, flat out, is extremely risky for th eparty, and then set a limitation the campaign doesn't have on their prepardness to deal with it. Of course PCs are going to be in trouble! Again, pick encounters that make sense. Ones based in the rules, not bad writing you have encountered before, and we have room for a discussion. If all you want to do is rant about how bad the writing in this campaign gets, openly dedicate a thread to it, and quit trying to hide it behind side issues. But as long as you stick to the absurb blanket statements like the one above, I'm going to have to disagree with you. Heh. Blanket statement. Disagree with yourself. This is a game, with checks and balances built into it. If the people writing the events would use them, limiting encounters to things appropriate for the groups that should be facing them, AND the people playing the game would use them, then this kind of conversation wouldn't even get started. Your example is based on the author's failure ot use the balances in the system and the party's blatant refusal to use the balances available to them within the system. And they STILL have options to work from. Jeff Huston Spobody Necial
Cardinal Teplin 06-04-04, 07:44 PM	>Because they are improper examples? They apply to your statement. The only way they could be improper is if your statement isn't the absolute you presented it as. >Because they start from assumptions that are patantly false in the LG campaign? It is an example from the LG campaign. >Because it is impossible to argue about what the correct action set is without specifically detailing everything both sides does, and the patter of recommendation and counter can continue beyond even YOUR interest in proving me wrong? I doubt that, considering my involvement in 28 pages posts in the past.... And since when is "i'm prepared to argue for longer than you" been an argument that is of use to anyone? All I'm looking for is an acknowledgement that innovation can not reasonable be expected to get a party out of ANY situation. I don't think that's a credible position. If you want to stick to it, as you have promised/threatened to do, you really need to support it. Stories of how you once killed a wererat don't really help, because there is no reason to suppose that such a solution is ALWAYS available. >So, I'm supposed to start from the supposition that a group of 5th level LG characters has never had access to cold iron or the Magic Weapon spell? As mentioned before, the example was under 3.0 rules. I would use one from 3.5 but that would involve discussing active modules, rather than those in retirement. I should also point out that, for the purposes of your statement, the party should be able to innovate their way out of the situation WITHOUT having weapons that penetrate the creature's DR. The idea that such a thing couldn't possibly occur is a separate matter, and one that has been challenged by the appearance of DR admantine and DR good creatures in intro modules. >Guess what? The first, simplest answer involves the phrase "Suck it up." The fighter and the monk have to grapple the hag. The rogue can experiment with Sneak Attacks, or simply join the grapple. With enough cooperative grappling, she is pinned, and can be coup de'graced. Can't coup de grace unless you can harm the creature. > Everybody else attacks into the grapple, and I mean EVERYBODY. A couple can be simply assisting (like the sorcerer, who is unlikely to do 10 points on her own). That's what we actually did in practice. Despite the Hag's ability to go ethereal, we actually managed it for a few rounds. Unfortunately, we still weren't able to harm her in any way. >In other words, you have taken an encounter that we are told, flat out, is extremely risky for th eparty, That's largely my complaint about DR (see earlier in the thread). DR isn't particularly risky. The hag never came close to killing any of us (diseased bite aside), and we weren't really outclassed, or outmanaevoured. We just couldn't hurt her. Eventually we had to leave. It was a real downer. >And they STILL have options to work from. So you keep saying. Tell us what they are. I'm not trying to trap you into a "if you do that then she does that" blow by blow run through, or anything like that. Its just that you say EVERY situation has an innovative solution that will solve it, but you won't give me the solution to this one. >If the people writing the events would use them, limiting encounters to things appropriate for the groups that should be facing them, AND the people playing the game would use them, then this kind of conversation wouldn't even get started. I wish that were true. Unfortunately the discussion actually started precisely because of the initial article, which impliedly defended the use of DR in situations that some people on this thread would consider inappropriate and thus bad writing. The suggestion that DR isn't in itself a problem, but only appears to be a problem because it is symptematic of bad/inappropriate writing that breaks the guidelines is a perfectly reasonable point to make, and would make a far better starting point than your previous one.
Baldaorm 06-04-04, 08:13 PM	Gather around the hag as fast as possible, assisting the fighters attack and have him power attack like crazy until his strength is drained. Same with the monk if he took power attack, otherwise he should be grappling or tripping. Druid/cleric/sorcer should be summoning dire wolves/celestial bisons (hopefully cleric or sorcerer has at least one to use). The rogue could be hoping for a grapple/flank sneak attack that does 11+ Hopefully you kill the hag before she has everyones strength drained or goes away ethereal. 1-2 power attacks for full after a successfull trip (with 1-2 aid others and a flank) might end it.
WCrawford 06-04-04, 10:26 PM	Originally posted by hustonjj You will have to explain to me how my statements that there's not anything unusual in the use of DR translates into supporting APL+5 encounters. Heck, I would think an INTRO mod was supposed to be set up so as to not make character death likely. IIRC, APL+3 is the point where you are supposed to EXPECT a character to die, so an EL 4 encounter would be a little much for an intro mod, DR or not. Unfortunately, with the most recent LG writer's guidelines, an intro mod is considered and written exactly as an APL 2 level of a mod. APL+4 is perfectly legal.
hustonjj 06-05-04, 10:58 AM	Originally posted by Cardinal Teplin >Because it is impossible to argue about what the correct action set is without specifically detailing everything both sides does, and the patter of recommendation and counter can continue beyond even YOUR interest in proving me wrong? I doubt that, considering my involvement in 28 pages posts in the past.... And since when is "i'm prepared to argue for longer than you" been an argument that is of use to anyone? Wow. Do you just have to be right that bad? The intent of the above statement is that a discussion about innovative ways of responding to the Night Hag will require an extensive series of variant actions from the Night Hag, since she has so many options, and attempts to respond to those actions by the group of PCs, and then attempts to respond to those actins by the Night Hag, ad infinitum. The statement was intended to communicate that playing the "what if" game is a circular process that could end sometime in 2079 or later, well after EVEN your interest in the topic has been used up. The intent was NOT to suggest I have more interest than you do, because I'm VERY willing to bet I have substantially less concern or interest than you do. >So, I'm supposed to start from the supposition that a group of 5th level LG characters has never had access to cold iron or the Magic Weapon spell? As mentioned before, the example was under 3.0 rules. I would use one from 3.5 but that would involve discussing active modules, rather than those in retirement. So, I'm supposed to be interested enough in your example to go back through the thread and find the original post where it was offered in order to put it in context? Nope. You offer it as an example, if you don't put it into context yourself in that offering it will be assumed to be from the current rules set, every time. Oh, and remember where I made my comments about using a bad EL example as a basis for a DR discussion? The 3.0 Night Hag starts as a CR 9, or APL+3, the first part in the 3.0 encounter points listed as highly probability of PC death. Gee, who would have expected a group entering a combat the rules describe as highly likely to kill at least one party member to have a problem with the encounter? If you want to discuss how bad DR is under 3.5, then select creatures with DR that have a final EL to be an appropriate encounter for the group of PCs. If you want to discuss how bad DR was under 3.0, then select creatures with a DR that have a final EL appropriate for the party. If you want to discuss the fact that the LG writer's guidelines and experience point system encourages writers to use encounters that are SUPPOSED to kill PCs, then start a different thread, openly focused on that point. As long as your complaints about DR being too tough are focused on the use of creatures who are DEFINED as too tough under the EL system, you've not made any progress in proving your point about DR. Honestly. Can't coup de grace unless you can harm the creature. Interesting house rule. You can't coup de grace if you can't critical the opponent. You can coup de grace opponents with DR. The damage still gets reduced, but, that's a different point, isn't it? A big, burly half-orc grunt with a x3 weapon and power attack taking a coup de grace attack (auto crit, remember) is going to get past a DR of 20. >In other words, you have taken an encounter that we are told, flat out, is extremely risky for th eparty, That's largely my complaint about DR (see earlier in the thread). DR isn't particularly risky. The hag never came close to killing any of us (diseased bite aside), and we weren't really outclassed, or outmanaevoured. We just couldn't hurt her. Eventually we had to leave. It was a real downer. Hunh? Your complaint about DR is that you keep facing creatures with DR in encounters were the calculated EL is too high for a reasonable encounter? I don't think your statement clearly supports your position, so you probably failed to communicate according to your intent. >If the people writing the events would use them, limiting encounters to things appropriate for the groups that should be facing them, AND the people playing the game would use them, then this kind of conversation wouldn't even get started. I wish that were true. Unfortunately the discussion actually started precisely because of the initial article, which impliedly defended the use of DR in situations that some people on this thread would consider inappropriate and thus bad writing. The suggestion that DR isn't in itself a problem, but only appears to be a problem because it is symptematic of bad/inappropriate writing that breaks the guidelines is a perfectly reasonable point to make, and would make a far better starting point than your previous one. I'm saying the inappropriate use of CRs and ELs beyond the PCs ability to reasonably handle the opposition is the root problem, and that ever specific complaint I have seen about the misuse of DR has either been about players who refused to adapt to any new challenge, or about encounters that were designed (according to the EL rules given in the DMG) to kill huge chunks of the PCs, if not all of them. Find me an example of an encounter where the DR is an insurmountable problem AND the creature(s) involved are a REASONABLE choice as opposition for your party ACCORDING TO THE CR/EL CALCULATIONS, not the bad LG writer's guidelines. Until you can find an example of both together, you are proving my point for me. Jeff Huston Spobody Necial
hustonjj 06-05-04, 11:08 AM	Originally posted by WCrawford Unfortunately, with the most recent LG writer's guidelines, an intro mod is considered and written exactly as an APL 2 level of a mod. APL+4 is perfectly legal. Yes. The writer's guidelines make that legal. I know that during my tenure, an author had to justify doing that VERY thoroughly, or we dropped it. The fact that the campaign wide rules encourage authors to write modules designed as TPK fests is one of the reasons I am no longer directly involved in the campaign administration. The fact that the author guidelines encourage hack fests and actively discourage role-play intense events is another. I can sit at home with my computer and Diablo, Baldur's Gate, ToEE, Heroes of Might and Magic, or whatever else and play a hack and slash game. I have to have other people involved in order to get a good role-play experience. I am not happy with the direction set for the campaign since Eric Mona was formally removed from involvement. Jeff Huston Spobody Necial Former Dyvers Triad member (#6, IIRC) Time to go play some RPGS with real people, in a FtF setting.
Cardinal Teplin 06-05-04, 01:47 PM	>Wow. >Do you just have to be right that bad? Not at all. But you interrupted a reasonably civilised discussion to make absurd blanket statements about what I have found to be a genuine problem. You freely admit to having not read a reasonably short (less than two-page) thread before leaping in to dismiss other people's opinions with statements that you now refuse to back up, support or justify. I don't feel that asking you to deal with an actual example is unreasonable. >The intent of the above statement is that a discussion about innovative ways of responding to the Night Hag will require an extensive series of variant actions from the Night Hag, since she has so many options, As I made clear, that was not my intention. I don't need a blow by blow account, just a broad strategy, to give an example of the kind of innovation you are talking about. We don't need a complex series of actions and responses. I'm just looking for one innovative strategy that might stand a chance of taking down the creature, or at seriously hurting it. ><snip>...I made my comments about using a bad EL example as a basis for a DR discussion? Yes, but that's because you havn't been following the thread. You wish to dismiss any example that breaks the EL rules, as bad writing, not a problem with DR. We wish to label use of DR excessive to the level as bad writing, in contradiciton to the implications of the article published at the start of the thread. If, as you claim, all the problematical uses of DR would have been eliminated had the EL rules been stuck to, then its entirely possible we actually agree. DR does need to be controlled by level, or else it is bad writing. If strict application of the EL rules would do that, then that is a potential solution. This principle might be expanded into the idea that, while breaking the EL rules is allowed, such breaches should be carefully examined on a case by case basis. It isn't, however, what you first suggested, which is that any character can useful act againt a high DR creature just by using teamwork and innovation. >A big, burly half-orc grunt with a x3 weapon and power attack taking a coup de grace attack (auto crit, remember) is going to get past a DR of 20. Our halforc had a x2 weapon, and if she didn't join the grapple, we couldn't keep the night hag down. This is, of course, solving the problem by applying the primary weapon, precisely what you said we should avoid doing in the place of you still undescribed 'innovative tactics.' You've still made no attempt to justify this statement, or provide any kind of example, so maybe we should just forget about it, and get back to the discussion?
hustonjj 06-05-04, 11:52 PM	Originally posted by Cardinal Teplin ><snip>...I made my comments about using a bad EL example as a basis for a DR discussion? Yes, but that's because you havn't been following the thread. You wish to dismiss any example that breaks the EL rules, as bad writing, not a problem with DR. Hunh? If all the examples of DR that are also appropriate by EL are NOT unsolvable, unstoppable opponents, and all the examples used to demonstrate how bad DR is ARE bad EL examples, then that sounds like the DR is not the problem. I've asked you to provide me some evidence that my belief you are upset over inappropriate power levels as a whole (as opposed to the DR you claim, while providing only bad EL examples) is incorrect. I want you to show me something as an example that proves it is not possibly the overall EL that makes the encounter too tough for the PCS, as opposed to having it be "just" the DR. Saying that this is proof I've not read the thread is entertaining at best, completely irrelevant to either of our points in fact. We wish to label use of DR excessive to the level as bad writing, in contradiciton to the implications of the article published at the start of the thread. Define DR excessive to the level. DR excessive to the CR of the critter that bears it? DR excessive to the PCs expected to face it? The first would be an issue if there were examples of opponents who had DR not easily overcome by PCs appropriate for the CR of the beastie. No one has even come close to providing such an example. The second has nothing to do with the DR if the creature is clearly labelled as too powerful for the opponents. That's not the fault of the DR. In this case, the DR is one of the things that contributes to the opponent's strength, and the AUTHORs and GMs are supposed to balance the opposition to the PCs. It isn't, however, what you first suggested, which is that any character can useful act againt a high DR creature just by using teamwork and innovation. The actual quote, that I use at MANY opportunities is "The only useless character is one whose player has given up." Well, that's because you have ignored every post detailing any option that has been proven to work against DR, except for a few where you have either blatantly denied the option as potentialy useful without providing anythin other than derision as proof, or you have posted false rules statements to invalidate options that work. It is REALLY hard ot provide evidence to someone who refuses to admit it is in front of him. You've still made no attempt to justify this statement, or provide any kind of example, so maybe we should just forget about it, and get back to the discussion? Which one? The one where you keep claiming that DR should not exist, that there is no situation where DR is appropriate at low-levels (and then in your example apparantly call 5th level a low-level)? I have never left that topic. You simply refuse to admit that the topic is not as myopic as you need it to be in order for you to be right. Get over it, accept a broader view, and re-evaluate your position. You have the right idea, but have narrowed in on the wrong point. Jeff Huston
Taren Seeker 06-06-04, 03:42 AM	Speaking of using false rules statements to validate tactics, you can't CDG a pinned opponent as they are not helpless. Hope you haven't beaten a lot of these high DR critters that way.
Cardinal Teplin 06-06-04, 02:18 PM	Sorry if this is a long post. I feel you are misrepresenting me, intentionally or otherwise, and hence accuracy is important. >Hunh? If all the examples of DR that are also appropriate by EL are NOT unsolvable, unstoppable opponents, and all the examples used to demonstrate how bad DR is ARE bad EL examples, then that sounds like the DR is not the problem. Not exactly. DR is still a problem, but its part of a wider problem, that of not following EL guidelines. While this is an entirely reasonable point, living greyhawk doesn't tend to stick to EL guidelines. This should be apparent since, as you say, many of our examples appear to break them. What appears to be happening is that people are allowed to vary from these guidelines, as long as the end result is checked and approved. In other words, people are using their skill and judgement to balance things, rather than just the EL guidelines. Part of that judgement is the idea, as represented in the orginal article cited at the start of the thread, that DR isn't really hard to deal with, because all the various strategies listed can be used to combat it. The end result of such judgement is that creatures with high DR relative to the level of the party will be approved, even though the EL would be, by the guidelines, inappropriate. You are partly right in that, were the game to strictly adhere to EL guidelines, then the problem might well disappear. It is possible that the remaining DR creatures would then be entirely manageable. However, this is not presently the case. EL guidelines are often broken, whether we think this is good or not. In view of that, DR is indeed the problem. DR is being underestimated in the damage it can do to a low-level game. Were creatures that did huge amounts of damage per round, or had extremely powerful magical effect also included, they too would be problems. However those are subjects for another thread. In giving examples, we have taken them from the living greyhawk game. This is a living greyhawk game discussion board. Examples based on EL, while possibly interesting, aren't an illustration of the game itself, and are based on a system that isn't what is actually being used. Hence my example, intending to demonstrate that the list of various strategies mentioned both in the article, and in various posts since, are not, for reasons that may be not fault of the players, universally applicable. It may not happen in games where the EL guidelines are adhered to, but it does happen in LG.
hustonjj 06-10-04, 11:04 PM	I've been thinking about this post, and trying to figure out an inteligent way fo responding to it without just being mean. Originally posted by Cardinal Teplin You are partly right in that, were the game to strictly adhere to EL guidelines, then the problem might well disappear. It is possible that the remaining DR creatures would then be entirely manageable. However, this is not presently the case. EL guidelines are often broken, whether we think this is good or not. In view of that, DR is indeed the problem. You'll have to explain this logic to me, because I can not see that the conclusion you have made follows form the statements before it, at all. "If EL guidelines were followed, DR probably wouldn't be a problem." "Since EL guidelines are not being followed, DR is the problem." Actually, what follows logically is that DR problems could simply be a symptom of the failure to adhere to EL guidelines. If this is an accurate example of the thought process you are applying to this conversation, well, that's why I'm having a hard time trying to figure out how to comunicate the fact that your post works against your point MUCH more thoroughly than it does anything to support it. Huston
cheesegrater 06-11-04, 12:21 AM	hustonjj, Try this on for size. You can break EL guidelines by including some monster with unmanageable DR. You can also break EL guidelines by including some monster with no DR at all, but higher hit dice than is warranted. Both of these situations are bad, but one is 'less bad' than the other, especially for newer players.
Marcia_S 06-11-04, 12:07 PM	What I have seen happen (especially in 3.0 to 3.5 conversion) is for an encounter, say EL 9, which can be either two CR 6 creatures or one CR 9 creature. The CR 6 creatures, even though there are two of them would be challenging, but conquerable, by an average APL 6 table, but the CR 9 creature, with flight, at will area-effect damaging powers, high SR and AC, and DR/good, is nearly a TPK. In this case, the EL doesn't tell the "whole story". Marcia
StevieS 06-11-04, 01:50 PM	So the party do something clever or bug out. LG is written for vastly differing types of parties so, unlike a home game, can't be tailored for the good guys. Provided the scenario is written to the LG guidelines the for the majority of parties the combat is normally do-able in my experience.
hustonjj 06-11-04, 02:03 PM	Originally posted by cheesegrater Try this on for size. You can break EL guidelines by including some monster with unmanageable DR. You can also break EL guidelines by including some monster with no DR at all, but higher hit dice than is warranted. Both of these situations are bad, but one is 'less bad' than the other, especially for newer players. You can break the EL guidleines through a multiple choice set of options, and some of those choices are worse than others. Amazingly simple, and unrefutable, statement. One of the notable means used in LG to break the EL guidelines is to not include situational modifiers when they are calculated . . .. The point I'm refusing to yield on, though, is that it is the DR that is the problem INSTEAD of the EL. A properly designed creature, whether it has DR or not, has that included in the CR of the creature. If you choose CRs and circumstances to build an EL appropriate for the APL, then you should never encounter a DR that is an insurmountable problem. The point that keeps getting thrown back at me is that the DR is the problem, regardless of how bad the EL happened to be, regardless of how bad the creature's CR happened to be. Sorry, but as long as the EL is out of range, the DR is not the source of the problem. I wil not yield on this position. Jeff Huston
Cardinal Teplin 06-11-04, 08:17 PM	>Actually, what follows logically is that DR problems could simply be a symptom of the failure to adhere to EL guidelines. Yes. You do seem to understand that part, at least. WE DO NOT DISAGREE with your point. We are trying to solve the same problem in different ways. The problem is unsuitable encounters. You are saying we must stick strictly to the EL system, and this will solve all our problems. You may well be right. Noone's trying to contradict you there. We are saying that LG doesn't stick to the EL system. LG instead has lots of people look at the module and decide whether it is reasonable or not. They use their judgement, not the EL system. So, the idea that using the EL system would solve the problem, although quite possibly true, isn't relevent. LG doesn't use that system. I don't think its about to start using it. Taking as a given that LG will carry on using its system of subjective judgement, the problem can only be solved by suggesting that that system has a tendancy to produce systematic flaws - in this case the tendacy to introduce DR at too low a level.
StevieS 06-12-04, 07:54 AM	Originally posted by Cardinal Teplin We are saying that LG doesn't stick to the EL system. LG instead has lots of people look at the module and decide whether it is reasonable or not. They use their judgement, not the EL system. So, the idea that using the EL system would solve the problem, although quite possibly true, isn't relevent. LG doesn't use that system. I don't think its about to start using it. Why doesn't it? LG has a maximum ELs permitted by APL, eg APL2 contains a max of 12 ELs of critters and although APL+4 encounters are allowed they are very rare in my experience, APL+3 encounters for the big bad end guy are the norm and having DMed many scenarios for hundreds of players haven't seen a huge mortality problem. ELs are calculated as per the DMG, or certainly should be. If anything the average LG party kicks an EL+1 or +2 scenario into touch in short order. I've really got better things to do than get drawn into the private war that's emerging but I'd like to get my head around this point as I'm writing scenarios for LG and vetting them as they are send in for Onnwal. Ta Stevie
Cardinal Teplin 06-12-04, 03:32 PM	Hokay.... here's where we're at. 1) There been an article published saying that DR is something players should be able to handle. 2) This was disputed, saying that some DR encounters in LG were those that some tables simply couldn't handle, through no fault of the players on the table. This was (presumably) a combination of excessive DR and unfortunate luck in which characters were assigned to the table. 3) The idea that DR could be excessive was disputed. 4) Examples were given of DR in LG games that were excessive for the level in which they occured. 5) New poster comes on to say that DR is only ever a problem when the EL limits for an ecounter are exceeded, which should never happen. 6) Point was raised that the examples cited are from real LG games. LG does not appear to be sticking to the same guidelines as those cited by the new poster. Therefore, unless LG does start using those guidelines, they aren't useful to this discussion Steve's now come in, citing a slightly different EL guidelines, based on EL per adventure, not per encounter. At this point we could all sit down and start debating EL guidelines, but I'd really rather not go there. What I would like to do is establish that we all agree that the level of DR appearing in past adventures (and in current adventures) is excessive, although possibly only at very low APL. Noone has yet disputed this. The new poster has been keen to emphasise, however, that this problem ONLY occurs when a given encounter breaches the EL guidelines he cited. I don't know if he's right, and I'm not particularly bothered either way. My main interest is trying to get the balance of DR right, in preparation for the adventure I am trying to write, and which Steve will then have to approve (or not, as the case may be). My secondary interest is what advice I give to new players, either as an organiser or as a GM.
StevieS 06-12-04, 04:20 PM	Originally posted by Cardinal Teplin 5) New poster comes on to say that DR is only ever a problem when the EL limits for an ecounter are exceeded, which should never happen. 6) Point was raised that the examples cited are from real LG games. LG does not appear to be sticking to the same guidelines as those cited by the new poster. Therefore, unless LG does start using those guidelines, they aren't useful to this discussion Steve's now come in, citing a slightly different EL guidelines, based on EL per adventure, not per encounter. At this point we could all sit down and start debating EL guidelines, but I'd really rather not go there. You made a blanket statement that LG doesn't stick to EL guidelines and has a 'subjective' method of determining encounter difficulty. I can guarentee you that it doesn't, LG scenarios have a max number of total ELs that can be used at each given APL and no single encounter may be above APL+4 and in fact APL+4 is rare, APL+3 being usual for a final encounter. ELs are determined from the MM stats and the method described in the DMG. Your opinion of DR is just that, your subjective opinion, and I'll leave you chaps to argueing it out but I'd like to work out where you have this incorrect notion of LGs EL guidelines is all.
StevieS 06-12-04, 04:26 PM	Re: your scenario 1) Provided the total ELs and max EL meets the LG scenario rules then I'm not too concerned about the DR of the critter, that's all factored into the EL. Provided the critter makes sense and belongs in the scenario that choice is yours. 2) Make sure you have the means of defeating many types of DR, have scrolls of magic weapon, carry silversheen, have cold iron. Work as a team against high DR critters and finally be prepared to run if needed. 3) I've had feedback from the chaps regarding your synopsis and will be mailing back thoughts ASAP ..... well after I've recovered from the France game anyway :D Originally posted by Cardinal Teplin My main interest is trying to get the balance of DR right, in preparation for the adventure I am trying to write, and which Steve will then have to approve (or not, as the case may be). My secondary interest is what advice I give to new players, either as an organiser or as a GM. [/B]
Cardinal Teplin 06-12-04, 04:58 PM	>You made a blanket statement that LG doesn't stick to EL guidelines and has a 'subjective' method of determining encounter difficulty. Right. Well, hustonjj seems to think that the examples we pulled from various LG modules violated those guidelines. Presumably one of you two is right. Feel free to argue it between you. I don't care about EL guidelines myself, and consider them irrelevent to the debate. The monsters that have appeared in LG in the past have had too much DR for the parties that they were facing. This isn't usually a problem, but it can, given certain conditions, be disasterous, resulting in an unwinnable encounter. Those conditions can be things that the players could do nothing reasonably about. >Make sure you have the means of defeating many types of DR, have scrolls of magic weapon, carry silversheen, have cold iron. Work as a team against high DR critters and finally be prepared to run if needed. All good advice, more or less what was in the artlcle, and of no use whatsoever in some of the situations we've been using as examples. Eg. Half-golums against 1st level characters, DR 10/good at APL 2, and DR20/+3 against a 5th level party. I would like to think that, given that we have established that: a) there is sometimes no way a character could possibly have the necessary equipment to penetrate DR at the relevent label and that b) using methods that don't allow for DR penetration isn't always possible. It would be safe to conclude that high DR at low level is a bad thing. This view isn't subjective. It doesn't have the necessary attributes to be subjective. It relies entirely on demonstrable examples and objective, replicable observation. If you feel you can take the same facts and come to a different conclusion, by all means do so. That is, until we got sidetracked into an EL discussion, what we were doing here.
Docrailgun 06-12-04, 07:39 PM	I think the point was that most of the DR that can't be handled by lower level characters simply shouldn't be seen at appropriate CRs. That's not really the rule's fault, but an inappropriate use of a certain level of encounter. That's the whole point of Challenge Ratings anyway, especially in 3.5. So, arguing that a bad 3.0 CR encounter you played in /GM'd in a 3.0 mod is something of a moot point. The fact that you had a bad encounter does not make DR inappropriate for LG modules, it just means that it was a bad encounter. Maybe you see bad encounters all the time, but that fact does not make DR inappropriate either, it's simply a case of a writer/editor not follwing the CR guidelines (and thinking about how the encouter should work). Originally posted by Cardinal Teplin [B We wish to label use of DR excessive to the level as bad writing, in contradiciton to the implications of the article published at the start of the thread. If, as you claim, all the problematical uses of DR would have been eliminated had the EL rules been stuck to, then its entirely possible we actually agree. DR does need to be controlled by level, or else it is bad writing. If strict application of the EL rules would do that, then that is a potential solution. [/B]
Docrailgun 06-12-04, 07:52 PM	I'm sorry to hijack this thread, and I don't mean to attack you, Teplin... but I suppose I am anyway. I read posts like this all the time, on various game system threads. People complain that their game/Living campaign/whatever is deeply flawed and is no fun. So, I wonder why these people play these games that they clearly don't like anymore. For some reason, they feel the need to soldier on, even though the game is broken. These same people drone on endlessly to anyone who will listen that if only the game designers (or in this case, module writers and editors) would listen to the One True Fan (TM), the Game Could Be Saved! If a game is no longer fun, don't play it. If there's a problem with LG, find a way to fix it... and that way is to write modules and get them approved. The problem here really isn't the _mechanic_ of DR, but rather the use of inappropriate CR-monsters/encounters on low-level characters. But again, that's a writing/editing problem and not a mechanic problem. Originally posted by Cardinal Teplin Sorry if this is a long post. I feel you are misrepresenting me, intentionally or otherwise, and hence accuracy is important. While this is an entirely reasonable point, living greyhawk doesn't tend to stick to EL guidelines. This should be apparent since, as you say, many of our examples appear to break them. What appears to be happening is that people are allowed to vary from these guidelines, as long as the end result is checked and approved. In other words, people are using their skill and judgement to balance things, rather than just the EL guidelines. Part of that judgement is the idea, as represented in the orginal article cited at the start of the thread, that DR isn't really hard to deal with, because all the various strategies listed can be used to combat it. The end result of such judgement is that creatures with high DR relative to the level of the party will be approved, even though the EL would be, by the guidelines, inappropriate. You are partly right in that, were the game to strictly adhere to EL guidelines, then the problem might well disappear. It is possible that the remaining DR creatures would then be entirely manageable. However, this is not presently the case. EL guidelines are often broken, whether we think this is good or not. In view of that, DR is indeed the problem. DR is being underestimated in the damage it can do to a low-level game. Were creatures that did huge amounts of damage per round, or had extremely powerful magical effect also included, they too would be problems. However those are subjects for another thread. In giving examples, we have taken them from the living greyhawk game. This is a living greyhawk game discussion board. Examples based on EL, while possibly interesting, aren't an illustration of the game itself, and are based on a system that isn't what is actually being used. Hence my example, intending to demonstrate that the list of various strategies mentioned both in the article, and in various posts since, are not, for reasons that may be not fault of the players, universally applicable. It may not happen in games where the EL guidelines are adhered to, but it does happen in LG.
Docrailgun 06-12-04, 08:04 PM	Actually, you're totally missing the point, and arguing around the real issue here... which is that encouters with appropriate challenge ratings simply aren't going to have abilities (HD, powers, attack bonuses, DR, spell use, or any other ability) that PC groups of an appropriate level cannot handle. That is by definition the point of the challenge rating in the first place. So, if you're seeing encouters with abilities that are too powerful for a certain level of character, then you will find that the encouter is of too high a level for that group. So, as much as you would like this to me about DR, that mechanic is no more a problem than a creature with high HD. That makes the problem an CR/EL problem, not a mechanic problem. Also, I've noticed that the only person that seems to be having a problem with DR is you, at least in the posts in this thread that I've read. Thus, it seems unlikely that there's a consensus that your argument is sound. Originally posted by Cardinal Teplin > This view isn't subjective. It doesn't have the necessary attributes to be subjective. It relies entirely on demonstrable examples and objective, replicable observation. If you feel you can take the same facts and come to a different conclusion, by all means do so. That is, until we got sidetracked into an EL discussion, what we were doing here.
WCrawford 06-12-04, 08:51 PM	Originally posted by StevieS Re: your scenario 2) Make sure you have the means of defeating many types of DR, have scrolls of magic weapon, carry silversheen, have cold iron. Work as a team against high DR critters and finally be prepared to run if needed. This is easier said than done. Silversheen needs access. Adamantine weapons need access. Scrolls require a spellcaster, their presense is not guarenteed. Cold iron and silver weapons are not available to brand new 1st level characters (nor any of the above mentioned items). My contention is that creatures with DR are not appropriate for APL 2/Intro mods unless used extremely sparingly. At APL4+ they are fair game. Keep in mind, also, that 4th level and lower characters have very limited funds. The purchase of consumables just to survive the mods when you can't count on a cleric at the table can be expensive. A DR 10/silver creature within the EL guidelines of the LG Writers document can destroy a party of 1st level characters.
Cardinal Teplin 06-12-04, 09:59 PM	>The fact that you had a bad encounter does not make DR inappropriate for LG modules, it just means that it was a bad encounter. Yes, I agree. Bad encounters should be avoided. I don't think anyone here is saying that DR should be banned, merely that it is being used in inappropriate situations (ie making bad encounters), particularly at low level. >Maybe you see bad encounters all the time, but that fact does not make DR inappropriate either, it's simply a case of a writer/editor not follwing the CR guidelines So you say. The Triad member who posted last seems to disagree. I suspect whatever guidelines are supposed to be used are being stuck to. It doesn't really matter why it is happening - it is happening. >(and thinking about how the encouter should work). This is what I suspect is the real problem. The article suggested that DR was always a problem that could be overcome, and that the problem was players not making full use of available options. I am assuming the article appeared because the author or his associates on the Circle have been hearing complaints about DR - although he could just have decided to write it out of the blue. >I read posts like this all the time, on various game system threads. People complain that their game/Living campaign/whatever is deeply flawed and is no fun. Don't recall writing that, or anything like it. Quote please? >If there's a problem with LG, find a way to fix it... and that way is to write modules and get them approved. As I am doing... largely as a result of this thread. >But again, that's a writing/editing problem and not a mechanic problem. Yes, I agree entirely. >which is that encouters with appropriate challenge ratings simply aren't going to have abilities (HD, powers, attack bonuses, DR, spell use, or any other ability) that PC groups of an appropriate level cannot handle. Well you say that, but that isn't our experience. Intro modules were cited as examples, one with a 10/good creature, the other with a 5/adamantite creature, faced with no equipment, and no chance of escape. I don't know if these violate the CR system, but they are certainly modern modules, being checked before release. I discussed the 3.0 example to avoid spoilers, because its from a retired module. The example was chosen because another module from the same year had the a similar situation at an even lower level. These problems occur. I can sympathise with the view that they shouldn't, but it is _demonstrably_ untrue. As demonstrated by the examples. >Also, I've noticed that the only person that seems to be having a problem with DR is you, at least in the posts in this thread that I've read. Well the thread is old... If you actually read the entire thread, something which you really should have done anyway, you'll see posters other than mine.
StevieS 06-13-04, 05:40 AM	Originally posted by WCrawford This is easier said than done. Silversheen needs access. Adamantine weapons need access. Scrolls require a spellcaster, their presense is not guarenteed. Cold iron and silver weapons are not available to brand new 1st level characters (nor any of the above mentioned items). I should have added in there the obvious LG advice, get a balanced party. To be honest the biggest cause of problems I've seen DMing is that they don't have one of the classes to cope. In an intro scenario then sure DR is gonna be tough and need to be carefully considered before using but if it's seen it should be DR5/something which is do-able. Anything more than that in an intro is a bit obscene IMO and would almost certainly break the EL rules. Once that 1st scenario is outta the way you're fair game though. The critters you'll face at APL2 should really be an EL5 max, eg a Bearded devil which has DR5/silver. Silver weapons are feely availible and DR5 can be bypassed by hitting it hard and often. My contention is that creatures with DR are not appropriate for APL 2/Intro mods unless used extremely sparingly. At APL4+ they are fair game. Keep in mind, also, that 4th level and lower characters have very limited funds. The purchase of consumables just to survive the mods when you can't count on a cleric at the table can be expensive. A DR 10/silver creature within the EL guidelines of the LG Writers document can destroy a party of 1st level characters. I'd imagine a DR10/silver critter would be an EL6 so shouldn't really be popping up for APL2. You'd have to argue pretty damned hard to get an APL+4 encounter past us in Onnwal esp at APL2. So, I'd agree that they should be used with caution esp at low APLs. Should they be outlawed? No.
StevieS 06-13-04, 06:00 AM	Originally posted by Cardinal Teplin Right. Well, hustonjj seems to think that the examples we pulled from various LG modules violated those guidelines. Presumably one of you two is right. Feel free to argue it between you. I can't think why your thread has had the kind of aggressive responses it has when you use such snippy language. I don't know the exact encounters so can't comment on the specific case but every scenario goes through the Triad scenario dude who checks that it meets the rules and then to a Circle dude who should check the same thing. Encounters should comply with the rules. The rules allow for an APL+4 critter, it is entirely likley that these are the kind of encounters you're talking about as by the DMG APL+4 means PCs dying and it's getting close to run away time. IMO APL+4 is generally to be avoided unless it's a major named recurring NPC who can be driven off. Just IMO. To clarify LG scenarios have hard rules of a max number of ELs at each given APL and a maximum EL for a single encounter based upon APL. These rules are not subjective and are followed. I don't care about EL guidelines myself, and consider them irrelevent to the debate. The monsters that have appeared in LG in the past have had too much DR for the parties that they were facing. Then you are argueing about the wrong thing and given that you can come up with a grand total of half a dozen problem encounters in god knows how many scenarios LG has produced in nearly four years it harly seems to be a major systemic fault to me. This view isn't subjective. It doesn't have the necessary attributes to be subjective. It relies entirely on demonstrable examples and objective, replicable observation. If you feel you can take the same facts and come to a different conclusion, by all means do so. That is, until we got sidetracked into an EL discussion, what we were doing here. [/B] Of course it's subjective. It is your personal opinion which is disputed by others here, I've played the same scenarios, unless you've been flitting of to the States to game, and have not reached the same conclusions. It's your subjective opinion which of course you're entitled to, please don't try and pass it off as objective fact.
hustonjj 06-13-04, 10:59 AM	Originally posted by StevieS The rules allow for an APL+4 critter, it is entirely likley that these are the kind of encounters you're talking about as by the DMG APL+4 means PCs dying and it's getting close to run away time. This is the part that bothers me. Why the administration allows this choce so frequently. It is one thing to have an APL+4 encounter with 8 creatures of CR APL-2 (or less, if circumstances increase the final EL) and a completely different issue to have one creature with a CR of APL+4. The second kind of encounter is the one which NEEDS to be avoided on a mUCH more regular basis than it has been in the past. Let's see, 6 characters with an actual calculated mean level of 4 and 2/3 will calculate out to an APL of 6, without option. That can happen with (simplest option) 4 5th level characters and 2 4th levels. LG's version of the core rules EL guidelines tell authors and administrators that it is REASONABLE to write a module that REQUIRES this group to defeat, say, a Rakshasa. Then, instead of USING a Rakshasa, LG authors seem to think it is better writing to use a half-fiendish 7 headed cyro-hydra. With 7 heads, this creature can use ALL of it's spell-like abilities, and Smite in only 2 rounds, with 5 MORE advanced bite attacks and 4 claw attacks in the same time frame. Hmmm . . .. Maybe that counts as an unusual situation that might call for an EL adjustment beyond a blind application of the rules? Too often, in LG, the module seems to be about what weird variant tricked-out monsters the author can manage to squeeze into the module and not about a story. And as far as whether or not the EL adjustments get used, also too often the scenario will ensure that the PCs meet this big bad boss monster without a valid opportunity to rest from the last encounter, but the EL will NOT have been adjusted to account for that. I don't blame the authors. I blame the Triads and Circle reps who edit these events and ACCEPT this garbage simply because (at a glance) it fits inside the guidelines. I was there, I understand the effort involved in getting through the edits in the first place, the effort involved in fighting with author's whose work runs contradictory to the regional plot so you can just get a module available at all. But it is the responsibility of the Triads and Circle reps to manage the campaign, NOT to simply blindly enforce rules. Doing the second part is WHY a group with 4th level characters are told by the campaign that a half-fiendish, 7-headed cyro-hydra is an "appropriate" challenge. And for the record, that is NOT an example out of a module. I just picked an APL, did the quick math, and spent about 5 minutes with an MM in my lap. In too many of the modules I HAVE played, however, it feels like the author spent a great deal more time than that trying to see exactly how far he could twist something . . .. "Let's see, if I double the Hit Dice, it only advance 1 CR, so if I quadruple the Hit Dice, it only advances 2, then I can apply the (fill_in_the_blank) template, and only advance it another 2 CR, but it gains . . .." The EL system as applied in LG is NOT the EL system as described in the core rulebooks. It can't be. LG soecifically tries to take discretion away from the administrators (in the name of consistency), but that discretion is at the very heart of the EL system as described in the DMG. Whew. Well, I think I'm done ranting for now. And you should feel free to ignore it as just that, a rant, if you wish. Jeff Huston Spobody Necial
Cardinal Teplin 06-13-04, 11:56 AM	>>>>6) Point was raised that the examples cited are from real LG games. LG does not appear to be sticking to the same guidelines as those cited by the new poster. Therefore, unless LG does start using those guidelines, they aren't useful to this discussion >>>You made a blanket statement that LG doesn't stick to EL guidelines and has a 'subjective' method of determining encounter difficulty. >>Right. Well, hustonjj seems to think that the examples we pulled from various LG modules violated those guidelines. Presumably one of you two is right. Feel free to argue it between you. >I can't think why your thread has had the kind of aggressive responses it has when you use such snippy language. Hold on. Have a look at the above exchange. Bear in mind that The first post was an attempt to summarise the present argument, at your own request. I'm sorry if you feel I'm being snippy, short, or unreasonable. I don't feel that I have been any less polite than yourself. This is a message board, and notoriously bad at conveying emotional tone. I'm happy to apologise for any implied personal slight or attack. None was intended. I don't think LG does actually break the EL rules. However, I'm not familiar with them. If you want to discuss this with the person who made the point, hustonjj, then please do so. I've been trying quite hard not to express my own views on EL mechanics, because I don't think I know enough to comment. >given that you can come up with a grand total of half a dozen problem encounters in god knows how many scenarios LG has produced in nearly four years it harly seems to be a major systemic fault to me. No its not. Noone ever claimed it was. >Of course it's subjective. It is your personal opinion which is disputed by others here, I've played the same scenarios, unless you've been flitting of to the States to game, and have not reached the same conclusions. It's your subjective opinion which of course you're entitled to, please don't try and pass it off as objective fact. Any opinion is of course subjective. The examples I've given are, however, entirely fact. The reasoning has proceeded on the grounds of those examples. Its as objective an arguement as is practically possible on a message board. >So, I'd agree that they should be used with caution esp at low APLs. Should they be outlawed? No. Well that's the conclusion I came to (see page 1). Did you think I'd come up with something else?
Marcia_S 06-13-04, 12:49 PM	I see two separate arguments here - one about DR and one about EL calculations. Although DR can be a factor in EL, it's not the only one. I have seen problems from BOTH of these in many mods (and not just LG). Let's look at some of the things that a creature can have for DR: DR 5/magic - not too bad, even at low levels, as most groups will have a cleric or wizard with the spell or scrolls. However, it is deadly for an all (or mostly) 1st level party. DR 10/magic - makes a tough, but surmountable fight for an APL 4 group (a group that is, in fact, average 4th level). Most of the characters will actually have a magic weapon by 4th level. Nearly impossible for an APL 2 group, especially if they have not had a chance to rest since the previous fight and get back spells. DR/silver - although silver is readily available, most APL 2 parties will not have the gold to buy it, plus those critters that have DR/silver are pretty nasty in melee fights, many with special damage that drains. DR/good - not difficult IF you have a 3rd level cleric or paladin who has prepared the spell more than once, but devastating for APL 2 or 4 groups, as well as weak APL 6 or 8 ones. DR/admantine - extremely difficult to obtain for anyone less than APL 8 and even then, it's often out of reach. If admantine was more readily available, this would not be so inappropriate, but as it is, only "tank" fighters can hope to do enough damage to hurt it, as these creatures (constructs) cannot be sneak attacked. DR/anything else - great fun for those people who have picked up just that particular type of weapon and know when it's useful, but truly annoying for everyone else. If you know that you will be fighting a lot of fae, it's not unreasonable to have a cold iron weapon on you, for example, but trying to cover every possible DR leads to carrying a TON of different weapons. DR/- - this is the absolute worst and should never be used at APL 2 except on the weakest of creatures (e.g. low AC, few HPs, no special attacks or qualities). Arrows are virtually useless against this creature, as well as most attacks by non-fighter types. Even at high levels, it is unlikely that any given party will have more than one or two of a "special" material or aligned weapon. The article on DR might help players come up with ways to overcome DR, but I sincerely hope that authors don't now assume that all PCs will be able to handle any DR at any level. Now, the EL calculation is another matter, entirely. CR doesn't tell the whole story when calculating EL. Two CR 6 creatures may make a reasonable EL 8 encounter, whereas a CR 8/EL 8 creature may be a flee or face a TPK situation. Some things to take into account when determining the EL of an encounter: - combat area that greatly favors the NPC (e.g. high ground, rough terrain, narrow hallways, chasm, etc. that restrict the PCs, but not the NPCs) - PCs have not been allowed to rest or heal - PCs are drained from an earlier fight (e.g. levels, ability points) - PCs are ambushed - combinations of abilities that make the creature more than "the sum of its parts" (e.g. flying, high DR/SR/AC, AND unlimited breath attacks) - NPCs have superior battle tactics (e.g. through a leader or "training") - NPCs have had advance warning time to buff and prepare - multiple NPCs whose abilities complement each other unexpectedly (e.g. one drains wisdom, the other requires a will save) In one mod I played, we had been drained significantly by our first 2 encounters and no one had any spells to get the lost ability points back. So, the final encounter which should have been an EL +3 was effectively EL +8. The author apparently believed that everyone would be back to full strength by that point, which would have been impossible even with an optimized party, but going strictly by the APL/EL calculation seemed justified. EL needs to take into account more than just the CR of the creature(s). Marcia
Timlagor 06-26-04, 09:45 AM	I've just found these forums so I'm going to stick my oar in here :) As a low level player I have seen no problems with DR (haven't really met it though). If high EL encounters are being passed no the basis that the Triad/Circle don't consider DR very significant then that is bad but DR in itself is not a bad thing -creatures with DR are balanced for the EL by being weaker in other ways. In short excessive EL could be a problem but I really don't think that DR is. Carrying weapons against DR is not just a matter of gold. Weight is also a limitting factor -you can only carry so much stuff. **A few ideas for dealing with the Hag Having looked it up in the MM. From your description of the situation you could overpower the Hag and it wasn't about to kill anyone so here are a few suggestions: 1) Someone has already mentioned the grapple damage ought to work. Assuming this is true you shoudln't have had a problem. 2) Having pinned it you could smother it (suffocation should work). If necessary you could bury it alive. 3) Once pinned it can be tied up (you would need to remove the Heartstone somewhere along the way but even if you fail your knowledge rolls (or are just all ignorami) by the time it's used it a couple of times to go etherreal you ought to spot it). From there it's helpless so you can: a) Deliver Coup de Grace b) Smother or grapple it c) Bury it alive d) Climb the tree and drop it from the top a few times. e) As (c) but tie a rope round it's neck first. f) Burn it alive -better use manacles though. g) gag it, hood it, wrap it up in a bedroll and take it with you as a trophy -risky if it has allies you are likely to run into but you get big points for style and major qudos when you walk into the nearest temple and ask them to lend a hand. I hope you find these suggestions useful for next time :D Note that in the case of the Night Hag, despite it being a(n excessively) high EL, the DR was mitigated by weakness to the extent that it was no real threat to your party. Obviously if you can't hurt something and you can't overpower it and there is no useful terrain then you're in trouble. -that really shouldn't happen if the EL is even close to appropriate Edit: Introductory adventures really shouldn't be lethal to party members imho. I would want an APL2 one that was likely to kill a Lvl 1 party to have a warning on it. OTOH Dying doesn't matter if you have fun -especially with a brand new character.
Cardinal Teplin 06-26-04, 12:29 PM	>1) Someone has already mentioned the grapple damage ought to work. Assuming this is true you shoudln't have had a problem. Fairly sure it isn't though. Anyone have a reference for this one, since I've not heard it claimed before.. >2) Having pinned it you could smother it (suffocation should work). If necessary you could bury it alive. Couldn't pin it reliably. We managed it once, but it wriggled free. Bear in mind that once it got bored it could go etheral and attack with magic missle every round until we left. We did try and go for the heartstone, but didn't have the knowledge planes to identify it. Its not that the creature couldn't kill us - it could. Just not quickly. The combat lasted more than 8 rounds, and we weren't particularly badly hurt. We just couldn't win.
Timlagor 06-26-04, 01:27 PM	Just checked the DMG on DR and I think you are right about grapple damage. Force effects do not extend from the Ethereal Plane to the Material Plane so you would be safe frm its Magic Missiles while it was ethereal -which wouldn't stop it popping out 180ft away and blasting you then vanishing again; except that 180' line of sight is tricky in woods... I'm confused by your comment about the Heartstone. You don't need to identify it -just notice that it is being used and remove it. I still think it was an EL problem rather than a DR problem :)
Cardinal Teplin 06-28-04, 06:46 AM	? I thought force effects did extend into the material... oh well... The woods thing was what allowd us to escape of course. Noticing the heartstone being used is too late. Once used she's etheral and we can't grapple her any more. We did try stripping random jewelry, but she was wearing rather a lot, and we didn't get the right ones before she broke free. I don't know if it was an EL problem or not. I've been assured both ways by people who seem to know what they are talking about. I don't think damage reduction is a bad thing in itself, but I do think it has been used in situations where the party can't reasonably be expected to break through it, and no other alternatives to breaking through it are possible. The result is either an entirely deadly encounter, or one that isn't possible for the characters to win, even if it isn't terribly threatening.
Timlagor 06-28-04, 07:24 AM	Well it was definitely a high EL. If she hadn't been able to go ethereal at will, would she have been such a problem? I don't think we really disagree but you laid down this challenge of how to deal with the Hag and I just couldn't resist ;) The missiles (and other force effects) go from Material to Ethereal just fine but not the other way around.
Cardinal Teplin 06-29-04, 07:09 AM	>Well it was definitely a high EL. If she hadn't been able to go ethereal at will, would she have been such a problem? Well yes, we still couldn't actually kill it. She probably would have worn us down eventually.