Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Puggle Halfwine 01-16-07, 11:27 AM	Hey guys, just some thoughts and musings while I wait for The Burning Crusade to install... (I'm not addicted, I can quit any time I want- just not now!) I really don't like Resurrection, Raise Dead, etc. I think it cheapens death and makes PCs into Cylons. Except death is NOT a learning experience, because you lose experience... but I digress. When my characters die they have a tendency to stay dead. So far I've only bought back one character and that was because, well, the character wanted it- plus he was playing up (horribly) with a group of very powerful adventurers. The means were definately at his disposal. The only other character of mine I would be 100% sure of bringing back would definately be Puggle- because he's just so much fun. :) The only one I like is Reincarnate. Maybe it's just because I'm chaotically aligned (as a player!), but I like the random element of chance involved. I don't like to think... "Well, that greataxe took off my head. Don't worry, we'll make it better..." Also I think adding a rule to the LGCS which read something like... "Three Raise Deads and then you're permanently dead"... or somehow involve some risk, like with reincarnate... that would be good for me. Probably a very unpopular move, but... hey. Whops, it's installed. Time to go!
kenobi65 01-16-07, 11:38 AM	Well, I was going to suggest trying a campaign like Living Force or Living Death, in which coming back from the dead is impossible (in the former) or more difficult (in the latter)...but LF is gone, and LD is going fast.
CrystalBlue 01-16-07, 12:42 PM	I just see LG as being a very hard campaign and having a high mortality rate. That being said, there should be other options then having to min/max to survive. I mean...drek happens. You roll a 1 on your save and end up vaporized. Is that fair? Not really, in my opinion. So I think that being brought back from the dead is very, very fair. I mean, death is very expensive in both gold and exp. I just wish Revify was limited... *sigh*
LGMoses 01-16-07, 12:53 PM	I just see LG as being a very hard campaign and having a high mortality rate. That being said, there should be other options then having to min/max to survive. I mean...drek happens. You roll a 1 on your save and end up vaporized. Is that fair? Not really, in my opinion. So I think that being brought back from the dead is very, very fair. I mean, death is very expensive in both gold and exp. I just wish Revify was limited... *sigh* how is it not fair? Stuff happens, you die. But yes, I do think that raise dead is kept in check. I mean, its a game where peple make mistakes all of the time. There needs to be some element for coming back from death but it needs to be fairly rare and costly. Things are more chaotic and die dependent at low levels. This assures a good "hump" that keeps people who can't cut it from getting to higher levels. Farmboys die trying to make some quick gold adventuring. Adventuring is a dangerous occupation and you are very likely to die. But I digress. You are just as likely to roll a 1 and get vaporized as anyone else. You say "aw but if it had been a two I would have been fine" but it wasn't a two. Fate said, "ur character is dead, it has been culled from the pack of adventurers" and ur character died. If you have enuff wealth/friends in power to get raised then great, u've made the journey to hell and back that most people never get to take. :rant:
awroe 01-16-07, 01:47 PM	You are just as likely to roll a 1 and get vaporized as anyone else. You say "aw but if it had been a two I would have been fine" Except that if you have 20 massive damage rolls, you're likely to roll a one on one of them, as are all the other characters. Which means most high level characters would be dead.
awroe 01-16-07, 01:51 PM	Also I think adding a rule to the LGCS which read something like... "Three Raise Deads and then you're permanently dead"... or somehow involve some risk, like with reincarnate... that would be good for me. Probably a very unpopular move, but... hey. I don't see why this needs to be made an LGCS rule - you're welcome to enforce this on your own characters, but why force it on others? I don't see characters going out of their way to die - at lower levels it can be very expensive (and probably worth restarting the character anyway). At higher levels there are a lot more immediate death effects that are balanced by the existance of Raise / Ressurect. And you can still fall into a lava pit and be unrecoverable. It also helps balance out the possibility of getting bad DMs at a convention, which is a good thing. AW.
LGMoses 01-16-07, 01:54 PM	Except that if you have 20 massive damage rolls, you're likely to roll a one on one of them, as are all the other characters. Which means most high level characters would be dead. Don't take massive damage thats my tip. Prevention is the best medicine.
Alpha_Nerd 01-16-07, 02:36 PM	3 Deaths? Man my guy would have been gone by year 2.
Munkwunk 01-16-07, 06:12 PM	Why does death feel "cheapened" in D&D and not in a game like, say, World of Warcraft? They're both fantasy settings where both death and resurrection are common. Do you know why resurrection is common? Because it's no fun to constantly start over at level 1. Death, in a game, should be a setback, not a punishment. It's nobody's fault that you failed your save vs. FInger of Death, but it happens. If you can come back to life, it's okay. You pick up the pieces, pay the fine for being unlucky, and get back to adventuring. Save or die spells are only balanced in D&D because Raise Dead and similar spells exist. If you wanted to remove Raise Dead, you'd have to also lower the threat of death, otherwise the mortality rate would be exceptionally h igh and few, if any, characters would ever make it to retirement. D&D is a game, and it should be as much fun for players as possible, otherwise there would be no reason to continue playing. If you really feel that way about death, you're more than welcome to reroll your characters every time you died, but like you said: situations happen where it was just bad luck to die (like having to play up or not play at all) and some characters are too fun to abandon.
Mattastrophic 01-16-07, 06:28 PM	Yeah, you're taking a personal opinion on PC death and suggesting we enforce it on everyone. No way. -Matt
_m_ 01-16-07, 06:59 PM	Yeah, you're taking a personal opinion on PC death and suggesting we enforce it on everyone. No way. -Matt OI, back off. there was no suggestion that it get enforced. he was expressing an opinion that he didnt like the whole rez idea, not that you guys cant all do it. dont be silly.
Genghis Cohen 01-16-07, 07:22 PM	Don't take massive damage thats my tip. Prevention is the best medicine.That's not an option at high APLs. All it takes is an Orc barbarian with a Falchion, Improved Crit and Power Crit, and you'll be taking 80+ hit points of damage almost every time he rolls a 15 or higher.
_m_ 01-16-07, 07:35 PM	That's not an option at high APLs. All it takes is an Orc barbarian with a Falchion, Improved Crit and Power Crit, and you'll be taking 80+ hit points of damage almost every time he rolls a 15 or higher. unless you have greater blink, blur, flicker, mirror image, stone skin, dragon skin, steel skin, polymorph, size mod, greater mage armour, dr... ok fine, so i adore my wizard. sueue me. but i actually agree with moses, imo the best way to not die from massive dmg is to engineer situations where you cant get hit.
cycloptic_squirrel 01-16-07, 08:18 PM	unless you have greater blink, blur, flicker, mirror image, stone skin, dragon skin, steel skin, polymorph, size mod, greater mage armour, dr... Mmmm, dragon skin. Did you actually find access, or are you just raising my hopes just to dash them like so many dreams of childhood?
_m_ 01-16-07, 08:25 PM	Mmmm, dragon skin. Did you actually find access, or are you just raising my hopes just to dash them like so many dreams of childhood? oh its out there, believe me, its out there.
clannagh 01-16-07, 08:40 PM	its easy choose to not resurrect advise your local Dm's .. triad if you like .. that under no circumstances is this character to be resurrected .. even if .. yes even if .. you change your mind and decide to come back :) the same choice applies to limited feats .. if you have a problem with feats or PrC being limited just make a choice "my characters never use things on the limited list".
_metz_ 01-16-07, 11:39 PM	Exactly, its your choice, furthermore, characters who choose to not be raised can't either. Simple. Argueing to incorporate it into the rules won't work but by all means play your characters as you wish. Though a lot of the really high level characters have been inconvenienced (killed) at some point or another and refusing to be raised will just mean you have to be uber careful to get to play APL 14s etc. Its all down to how you play your character, if you can pull it off, kudos!
rockondon 01-17-07, 02:13 AM	the exp and gold loss of death is enough to put the fear of death into my characters. I don't see the need to heighten that fear by eliminating raise dead. If someone invests years of time into a char don't take it away from them. If you took away the raise spells I think we would start to see things like these happen: 1) people would play more defensively and less like the heroes they should be 2) people would cheat more 3) DMs would pull more punches which would weaken the game experience 4) there would be stronger resentment toward DMs that did kill chars
Munkwunk 01-18-07, 01:51 PM	OI, back off. there was no suggestion that it get enforced. he was expressing an opinion that he didnt like the whole rez idea, not that you guys cant all do it. dont be silly. Also I think adding a rule to the LGCS which read something like... "Three Raise Deads and then you're permanently dead"... or somehow involve some risk, like with reincarnate... that would be good for me. 'nuff said.
_m_ 01-18-07, 07:03 PM	'nuff said. touché.
Iswald 01-19-07, 12:37 PM	Also I think adding a rule to the LGCS which read something like... "Three Raise Deads and then you're permanently dead"... or somehow involve some risk, like with reincarnate... that would be good for me. Probably a very unpopular move, but... hey. Can't be done. It would alter the core rules from the PHB.
The_Jester 01-20-07, 10:14 AM	I really don't like Resurrection, Raise Dead, etc. I think it cheapens death and makes PCs into Cylons. Except death is NOT a learning experience, because you lose experience... but I digress. When my characters die they have a tendency to stay dead. So far I've only bought back one character and that was because, well, the character wanted it- plus he was playing up (horribly) with a group of very powerful adventurers. The means were definately at his disposal. The only other character of mine I would be 100% sure of bringing back would definately be Puggle- because he's just so much fun. :) The obvious answer then is to not use raise dead and encourage others not to while respecting their choice to possibly come back as much as you'd like them to respect your choice for perma-death. The rules are never going to change and its too radical for most players. But they are optional.
thorinXXX 01-21-07, 01:17 PM	Someone has obviously never been on the receiving end of a Sudden Maximized Disintigrate cast by a high level Fate Spinner. DM "Does a 27 hit your touch AC?" Me "yes" DM "Make a Fort save" Me "Does a 26 make it?" DM "Yes, re-roll"
The_Jester 01-21-07, 02:13 PM	Or been hit by an unluck spell at the beginning of a tough combat...
Japangirl 01-21-07, 02:55 PM	Or been tossed into lava directly after exiting a portal. DC 20+ reflex save or bye-bye character.
cycloptic_squirrel 01-21-07, 05:14 PM	Or have flavor text indicate an electrical storm shortly after a generic comment questioning the DM's parentage. Not even a mumbled statement disparaging his masculinity will save you then.
Hariman 01-22-07, 01:26 AM	I wouldn't play living greyhawk if death were permanent. I've had one character of mine die twice. Both times right after he reached second level. I've seen at least three or four other deaths due to dumb luck, bad die rolls and bad tactics. (And some miraculous recoveries from near TPKs.) Raise dead, reincarnate, true res, and resurrections might "cheapen" death a little. But I'd rather cheapen death than see 20 plus rounds of play (80 or so hours.) down the drain because of a natural one. (or a DM's confirmed crit.) No, permanent death is a bad thing. Especially when you get a story like Nevix's. "I've died twice now. I started as a human man who died from a black dragon's breath weapon. I then came back as a female elf who died from an ill timed Fireburst. And now I'm a halfling lass. Why, I've even got tattoos of my past lives." (The cost for those tattoos IS recorded on one of her ARs.) Nevix "Vixen" Astari AKA, The Little b****, rogue/wizard aspiring to become an Arcane Trickster, is a character who's made a name for him/herself by dying. Twice. To failed reflex saves. There's nothing wrong with holding your characters to a "dead means dead" rule. But not all of us are as lucky/"hardcore". I know that I'd rather have the option or coming back than an assurance that that greataxe, bow, scimitar, rapier or lance crit will negate hours and hours of gaming. But hey, that's Nevix. His brother Dyne will probably stay dead should he ever die. Especially if it's a gruesome death.
LGMoses 01-22-07, 02:51 AM	Theres no real point to a "dead means dead" rule. The setting is currently made where it is "this" hard to come back from dying. If you can afford the price then who wouldn't? The problem is affording it and according to the rules from complete divine, actually wanting to come back. Thats why some major npcs stay daed and pc's don't. This is the way the setting is so best take advantage of it. Take advantage when you can cuz u'll need it. Theres no sense wasting ur time and not raising a character u've been playing forever. Death rules are also changed regional which is great. We haven't had anyone raised yet but 2 deaths at lvl 1. One from an intro and the other from a now retired mod featuring a dinosaur with pounce. The ranger was leading the way, got knocked out/grabbed/carried away. The Pc's couldn't track it down fast enuff so the ranger was eaten by the time they found its home. The other death was from a crit from a falchion. Crits are a leading cause of pc death from my experience. What makes sense in the setting makes sense in the setting. We have a low caster region so raising dead is fairly difficult. I bet there are many regions where there are dominant churches and raising is a bit easier. Just try not to die and if u can don't let it go to waste htinking ur preserving the integrity of the game. Just try ot have fun.