Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gwumph 11-26-06, 12:24 PM	How noticeable is a Paladin using his detect evil ability. I understand it says concentration. But does that mean can be noticed. If so how easy, what could a paldin do to hide the fact he is concentrating. Also if he is not obviously showing he is a paladin, how do people know what he is concentrating on?? Thanks for your Help Gwumph
clik_ml 11-26-06, 01:07 PM	Since there are no somatic or verbal components, nor are there any noticable effects created by it, I'd imagine you cannot tell by way of a spellcraft check. If a detect magic or equivalent is already running, that would easily pick it up, but then you might see the other guy concentrating first. So it's mostly a factor of how telling it is when someone notices the big guy in full plate staring at them and concentrating. In the real world that's just creepy, but in a world where spellcasting is not unknown, and especially when dealing with crazy adventurers- if you notice one of them is unusually distracted, then you might inquire as to what they are doing (whereupon it may go to bluff vs. sense motive, and paladins don't make very good bluffers). So some DMs may justly have observant/paranoid NPCs call the paladin on it.
jstorrie 11-26-06, 05:18 PM	Expect table variation on this. There shouldn't really be any way for NPCs to tell, but some DMs will assert that they can. Others will let you ping detect evil like radar.
_m_ 11-26-06, 07:32 PM	yeah, but who has ever met a paladin who has tried to hide what they are doing?
copper_wyrmling 11-26-06, 08:13 PM	yeah, but who has ever met a paladin who has tried to hide what they are doing? My sacred exorcist generally tries to avoid displaying a sign reading "Warning: Your Alignment Has Been Checked", at least until she can figure out some way to stop the fiend / vampire spy from teleporting away as soon as they realize they've been sprung. Randomly checking with Detect Evil has allowed her to unmask quite a number of fiends and vampires, usually spies for the Old One. (In particular: *always* check lost children in the middle of nowhere, refugees moving from the frontlines to the major cities, and any group of people in a tavern.)
_m_ 11-26-06, 08:37 PM	My sacred exorcist generally tries to avoid displaying a sign reading "Warning: Your Alignment Has Been Checked", at least until she can figure out some way to stop the fiend / vampire spy from teleporting away as soon as they realize they've been sprung. Randomly checking with Detect Evil has allowed her to unmask quite a number of fiends and vampires, usually spies for the Old One. (In particular: *always* check lost children in the middle of nowhere, refugees moving from the frontlines to the major cities, and any group of people in a tavern.) the only paladin in our area decided a frontal assault on a city being bombarded by level 8 fireballs, a small army of level 6+ fighters, and several hundred random level 1 runts, was a good idea, and that it should be announced first that she was comming, so as not to surprise the poor defenders... so im pretty sure she has a copy of that sign :D
Gwumph 11-27-06, 12:43 PM	Thanks for your opinions. In the game our evening camp was approached a somewhat strange character. I didn't move, I just looked over and detect evil. The GM said the Quasit saw me detecting evil , changed shape and flew off. (As for hiding the mod called for my paladin to dress up like a gypsie,{got a 22 on disguise}, lucky for me my god has exiles and travellers on his list, which pretty much defines gyspies) Since detecting evil is just a standard action, that means all you have to do is concentrate for (3?) 6 seconds to know if there is any evil nearby. In my opinion it would be almost impossible to tell that someone is thinking about something for 6 seconds straight and then stopped. Which leads to the next question. Are there any spells that can detect/warn if paladin is using this ability??? Cheers Gwumph
SgtHulka 11-27-06, 12:56 PM	Since there are no somatic or verbal components, nor are there any noticable effects created by it, I'd imagine you cannot tell by way of a spellcraft check. Why are there no verbal or somatic components? The spell is listed as Verbal, Somatic and Divine Focus. And the Paladin Ability is listed as "as the spell". Is there a FAQ entry I'm missing? Is there something specific to (Sp) abilities that negate components? Thanks in advance.
gomeztoo 11-27-06, 01:04 PM	Using a spell-like ability is a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity. This means that it is different than just thinking, even though you need no components It is feasible that any NPC that is intelligent and familiar with magic and/or spell-like abilities (such as an imp) would be able to deduce that a spell-like ability is being used. Depending on what they expect to encounter, they could extrapolate what the ability migth be (but it would always be a guess and they could be wrong). PCs do this all the time. If a DM states that "the NPC stares at you intensely, apparently concentrating", most PCs will assume he is using a spell-like ability, and depending the circumstances may make a guess at what it is.
gomeztoo 11-27-06, 01:05 PM	Is there a FAQ entry I'm missing? Is there something specific to (Sp) abilities that negate components? Yes. Being (Sp) means there are no verbal, somatic, or material components or foci. It's in the 'spell-like ability' definition.
Britt 11-27-06, 01:06 PM	Is there something specific to (Sp) abilities that negate components? Thanks in advance. SP have no M, S, or V components. I don't have my books with me, but I think it's in the MM glossary, though it might be the DMG.
Gwumph 11-27-06, 01:18 PM	If a DM states that "the NPC stares at you intensely, apparently concentrating", most PCs will assume he is using a spell-like ability, and depending the circumstances may make a guess at what it is.[/QUOTE] Sure, but why do i have to stare at someone intensely??? Reading the spell says you have a 60 foot cone in front of you. In round 1 you just know there is evil in that cone area. So all you have to do is think about the ability. you don't stare at an object or look like you are thinking intensely. Even more you don't have to facing in the general direction. Just look over your shoulder and look back. I mean how hard is it to concentrate for 6 seconds on something.... we are not talking about a massive drain on brain power here. As for the DM describing an NPC scrunching up his face, thats just a softball to the PC's to let them know something is up, when really they should have no idea.
gomeztoo 11-27-06, 01:26 PM	I'm just giving an example on how a DM could portray it. Please don't focus on details. Fact is that a SP is a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity. You can see something is up, or you wouldn't get the AoO.
pedr 11-27-06, 02:40 PM	I think that the AoO is because in order to concentrate on activating the spell-like ability means you have to take your concentration off the battle. It doesn't have anything to do with whether there are components etc. So in my opinion, someone who has been actively defending against blows/dodging/weaving etc obviously stops doing that if he activates a Paladin's Detect Evil ability. But someone who is, for instance, sitting in a reception room, admiring a painting over the fireplace for 18 seconds won't be obvious if what he's actually doing is detecting evil! Note that it takes 18 seconds to actually ascertain where in the 60' cone the evil aura(s) is/are - although I suppose you can usually surmise that if there's evil in that 60' it's probably coming from the person you're suspicious of.
Howie23 11-27-06, 02:41 PM	SP have no M, S, or V components. I don't have my books with me, but I think it's in the MM glossary, though it might be the DMG. PH, p. 180. I've been in the "they know you're doing it" camp on the basis of casting components until looking it up as a result of this discussion. David
_m_ 11-27-06, 05:04 PM	unless they actively had detect magic running, or had an extrodinary magic attunement of some sort, i rekon they'd be pretty hard pressed to notice you doing it.
gomeztoo 11-27-06, 05:35 PM	But someone who is, for instance, sitting in a reception room, admiring a painting over the fireplace for 18 seconds won't be obvious if what he's actually doing is detecting evil! True. But my opinion is that you can deduct that he is doing *something*, and that is how I will rule at my tables. You may not know *what* he is doing, but you can make a guess (and make the wrong one, ofcourse). I.e. the imp (example above) sees the man concentrating (as noted I'd rule that he can discertain that), and, failing to see anything else happen, may deduce it is a possible divination effect. Whether it is obvious/suspicous enough that he takes action on it (i.e. retreats to not be found out) depends on the situation.
Grantor 11-27-06, 06:15 PM	There is a related posting in Sage Advice from 11/22/06: Q: Dear Sage, Is the force attack produced by the Invisible Needle reserve feat (Complete Mage) actually invisible? If so, does that mean the target is flat-footed and the attack gains a +2 bonus on the attack roll? Nothing in the feat's description indicates this, but the name of the feat suggests it. --Steve A: The feat description is unclear as to the precise visual effect accompanying its primary benefit, so on that topic you’re free to decide either way as you see fit. Regardless of your decision on the visual effect, however, the force attack doesn’t gain any benefits of invisibility (unless the attacker himself is invisible, of course). The visibility or invisibility of a magical effect doesn’t have any bearing on whether the defender is flat-footed. A visible attacker who casts a spell without a visible effect doesn’t render his target flat-footed. Note: for a discussion of the visual effects of spells, you might consult the Design & Development article: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060414a By connection, it seems that the DM can say whatever suits him for the appearance of the effect, but in the end a spell-like ability is noticable (although the target might not be) and someone with a successful Spellcraft check can tell what ability was used. The eyes glow, the paladin mutters (too softly to be a verbal component) his diety's name, there is a humming sound, whatever. The people around can tell that a spell-like ability was used.
_m_ 11-27-06, 06:31 PM	There is a related posting in Sage Advice from 11/22/06: By connection, it seems that the DM can say whatever suits him for the appearance of the effect, but in the end a spell-like ability is noticable (although the target might not be) and someone with a successful Spellcraft check can tell what ability was used. The eyes glow, the paladin mutters (too softly to be a verbal component) his diety's name, there is a humming sound, whatever. The people around can tell that a spell-like ability was used. personally, i dont think it should be a conflict. my paladin, furious george the fighting monkey, would cry 'DIE EVIL DO-ERS" the moment it picked up anything, so *shrug* at hiding it in the first place.
Gwumph 11-27-06, 11:35 PM	Sorry Grantor The paladin doesn't have to mumble, call out his dieties name, touch his holy symbol, his eyes don't glow etc. etc. etc. All he has to do, is think about evil for 6 seconds to know thats its in a 60 foot cone, 6 seconds after that you know how many peices of evil are in the cone, 6 seconds after that you the exact location of each peice of evil and hwo strong it is. During those 18 seconds you could be staring at your beer, pretending to read a book, etc etc. You don't have to focus on any object to know if its evil, all the object has to be is within the 60 foot cone. I know alot of DM's don't like this ability, and try to come up with some reason to limit it (i.e. making your eyes glow, intensely staring at the target, touching holy symbol etc.) None on those apply to the ability in question, but they have been so frequently used by DM's that people accept it as fact. "The visibility or invisibility of a magical effect doesn’t have any bearing on whether the defender is flat-footed. A visible attacker who casts a spell without a visible effect doesn’t render his target flat-footed" Grantor, in this you are assuming there is a visible spellcasting happening. But there is NO V, S, or M for the detect evil ability, it just happens. The spell lists no visible effect.
_m_ 11-27-06, 11:43 PM	Sorry Grantor The paladin doesn't have to mumble, call out his dieties name, touch his holy symbol, his eyes don't glow etc. etc. etc. All he has to do, is think about evil for 6 seconds to know thats its in a 60 foot cone, 6 seconds after that you know how many peices of evil are in the cone, 6 seconds after that you the exact location of each peice of evil and hwo strong it is. During those 18 seconds you could be staring at your beer, pretending to read a book, etc etc. You don't have to focus on any object to know if its evil, all the object has to be is within the 60 foot cone. I know alot of DM's don't like this ability, and try to come up with some reason to limit it (i.e. making your eyes glow, intensely staring at the target, touching holy symbol etc.) None on those apply to the ability in question, but they have been so frequently used by DM's that people accept it as fact. "The visibility or invisibility of a magical effect doesn’t have any bearing on whether the defender is flat-footed. A visible attacker who casts a spell without a visible effect doesn’t render his target flat-footed" Grantor, in this you are assuming there is a visible spellcasting happening. But there is NO V, S, or M for the detect evil ability, it just happens. The spell lists no visible effect. kind of like the way that spell resistance dosent have a visiual. its not like monsters with spell likes just have them really obviously showing. i mean technically, a paladin has an aura of good. it dosent mean that the floor shines bright yellow everywhere she walks. for a good example of detect evil, it looks exactly NOT like the paladin chick's in order of the stick.
Britt 11-28-06, 12:19 AM	The fact is, no matter how much either side wants to support their position, there is no definition of what exactly happens when someone "Concentrates". We don't know what the designers intended or what happens that provokes the AoO.
Madfox11 11-28-06, 05:07 AM	personally, i dont think it should be a conflict. my paladin, furious george the fighting monkey, would cry 'DIE EVIL DO-ERS" the moment it picked up anything, so *shrug* at hiding it in the first place. That is a very quick way to loose your paladinhood (if you actually cause a fight to start) or ruin any attempt of success. It is incredibly easy to hide ones alignment (or at least just as easy as to detect it) and there are curses available that make PCs detect as evil even though they are not. It stands that similar things can happen to NPCs... One thing is for sure, if you can detect evil, you know that either that person is not afraid to be detected or he did not had the time to hide the alignment and was just planning a quick ambush. As for the question at hand. If I understood correctly, the Sage said that regardless of whether or not there is a visible spell effect, you can identify the spell with a Spellcraft check as per the rules in the PHB. There are rules to identify a spell without seeing the actual casting, the DC is just higher. The fact is that concentration takes effort to keep up. It costs the caster a standard action so it is clearly visible you are zoned out. Now whether that zoning out is due to a spell or something else is another question, but paranoid creatures tend to assume the worse especially in a world where magic is pretty common. Of course, this also means that a character could similate something like this by making a successful Bluff check. Great way to get rid of spying imps, although I would take care not to do it in a bar full of easy to anger thugs unless you actually want a tavern fight ;) Now in this particular example, I would let the imp realize a spell-like ability was being used if actually watching the paladin. If the imp was within the area's of effect at the time of casting than the paladin would note the presence of evil though. No imp is fast enough to get out that quick. Remember, an imp can detect good and magic at will in a similar way as a paladin detects evil.
Gwumph 11-28-06, 08:06 AM	Madfoxx The Zoning out idea is nice, but it just doesn't add up to other uses of concentration. example: call lightning spell. you have to use a standard action (concentration) to make the lightning hit. Also during your turn, you can move, jump, draw a weapon, loose a shield, ready a crossbow, or even move a flaming sphere. So saying that you zone out while concentrating sounds like flavor text. I have seen Spellcraft checks DC 25 to identify if someone is actually casting Detect Evil, but again when a person actually casts it, the must use the verbal, somatic and material component. They must also follow the the time requirements of the spell. A Paladin has to do none of those. For me if the NPC in question is not actually talking to the Paladin it would be a Paladin Bluff+10 vs NPC spot. If the Paladin was actually conversing with the NPC at the moment he detected evil, then a straight up Bluff vs Spot
jokem 11-28-06, 12:28 PM	Madfoxx The Zoning out idea is nice, but it just doesn't add up to other uses of concentration. example: call lightning spell. you have to use a standard action (concentration) to make the lightning hit. Also during your turn, you can move, jump, draw a weapon, loose a shield, ready a crossbow, or even move a flaming sphere. So saying that you zone out while concentrating sounds like flavor text. I have seen Spellcraft checks DC 25 to identify if someone is actually casting Detect Evil, but again when a person actually casts it, the must use the verbal, somatic and material component. They must also follow the the time requirements of the spell. A Paladin has to do none of those. For me if the NPC in question is not actually talking to the Paladin it would be a Paladin Bluff+10 vs NPC spot. If the Paladin was actually conversing with the NPC at the moment he detected evil, then a straight up Bluff vs Spot I think I would make it a Bluff versus Sense Motive.
copper_wyrmling 11-28-06, 12:37 PM	I think I would make it a Bluff versus Sense Motive. Some GMs have allowed my sac ex to make a Concentration check to carry on doing whatever she was doing without appearing visibly distracted, at the same DC as casting defensively (since that corresponds to continuing to defend herself while using the ability). Just another thought...
Grantor 11-28-06, 03:44 PM	Sorry Grantor The paladin doesn't have to mumble, call out his dieties name, touch his holy symbol, his eyes don't glow etc. etc. etc. I agree. None of these things have to happen. I was merely saying that the DM (and probably the player) has a lot of leeway in describing what is happening, including staring at a beer for 18 seconds. Rule-wise, it's a spell-like ability: it provokes an attack of opportunity, those with ranks in Spellcraft get a check to determine which spell-like ability was used, and all who witness the paladin using the effect can tell that a spell-like ability was used. And, as with all spell-like abilities, there are no required verbal, somatic or material/focus requirements. Neither is there verbal, somatic or material/focus components for an unarmed strike. Yet, people can tell when one is made. Only the rule-based elements of the ability are described for these actions (in most cases), it is up to the people at the table to determine what the experience looks and sounds like as they are playing.
Howie23 11-28-06, 04:11 PM	Rule-wise, it's a spell-like ability: it provokes an attack of opportunity, those with ranks in Spellcraft get a check to determine which spell-like ability was used, and all who witness the paladin using the effect can tell that a spell-like ability was used. Rule-wise (core), a Spellcraft check to determine a spell that has been cast requires either observing the components (DC15+ spell level), or it must have a detectable effect (DC20+spell level). Spell-like abilities have no components, so the DC15+spell level has nothing to act on. Detect evil has no stated detectable effect, so the DC20+spell level has nothing to act on. Unless someone is using optional rules from the splat-books, it looks to me like you'd have to be able to detect the aura of the spell in effect. Unless there is an optional skill rule in the splat books, either specifying that there is an observable effect, or establishing a Spellcraft check to figure it out anyway, is house-ruling. Any concrete references to turn this the other way? David
thorinXXX 11-29-06, 03:47 PM	... Now in this particular example, I would let the imp realize a spell-like ability was being used if actually watching the paladin. If the imp was within the area's of effect at the time of casting than the paladin would note the presence of evil though. No imp is fast enough to get out that quick. Remember, an imp can detect good and magic at will in a similar way as a paladin detects evil. Would you give the PC's the same chance to notice that detect abilities had been used on them?
Mithreinmaethor 11-29-06, 04:30 PM	Concentrating to Maintain a Spell: Some spells require continued concentration to keep them going. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can keep you from concentrating to maintain a spell. If your concentration breaks, the spell ends.
Madfox11 11-30-06, 04:14 AM	Would you give the PC's the same chance to notice that detect abilities had been used on them? Of course. When a NPC uses a spell-like ability on the PCs and the PCs are paying attention (either consciously or with a Spot check) I describe it as somebody staring at them intensely. How they react is up to them, but if a player asks what it means I tell them that either the person has a strange interest in them or he has used an ability that requires concentration (and it could be something as innocent as detect evil or more nasty such as detect thoughts).
pedr 11-30-06, 10:09 AM	Of course. When a NPC uses a spell-like ability on the PCs and the PCs are paying attention (either consciously or with a Spot check) I describe it as somebody staring at them intensely. How they react is up to them, but if a player asks what it means I tell them that either the person has a strange interest in them or he has used an ability that requires concentration (and it could be something as innocent as detect evil or more nasty such as detect thoughts).Though you don't have to stare at anyone, at least for Detect Evil. The person sitting next to the PCs in the inn staring wistfully into the fireplace could be detecting evil on the 60' cone which includes the PCs, if he's positioned himself well enough. Whether the PCs should be able to notice that, or not, I don't know. I tend towards saying that unless they're very suspicious they wouldn't notice anything out of the ordinary.
Madfox11 12-01-06, 04:02 AM	It is one of those things that are clearly up to the individual DMs and how obvious maintaining concentration is. There is no obvious rule, and the one I use seems to be well received by the local players. Ultimately that is not the most important thing: that you run a game that both you and your players enjoy ;)
Ramacass 12-02-06, 08:51 PM	And, as with all spell-like abilities, there are no required verbal, somatic or material/focus requirements. Neither is there verbal, somatic or material/focus components for an unarmed strike. Yet, people can tell when one is made. Only the rule-based elements of the ability are described for these actions (in most cases), it is up to the people at the table to determine what the experience looks and sounds like as they are playing. Actually an unarmed attack does have a somatic component I'm firmly with gwumph on this one. The reason casting detect evil draws an AoO in combat is the same reason trying to remember what you had for lunch last week on tuesday would draw an AoO. You're taking your mind of combat onto something else. Now if Gwumph were talking to the disguised imp. And then suddenly appeared to be concentrating on something else the imp would pretty much know what was going on. But if the imp were chatting up the hot cleric of farlanghn while gwumph was 20 feet behind combing his beard, drinking a beer, wearing a hooded cloak, etc there is very little chance the imp would have any idea what's going on.
Grantor 12-04-06, 06:32 PM	Actually an unarmed attack does have a somatic component. In the sense that wearing armor gives you a failure chance? In the sense that you must have one hand free (or be using a light shield in one hand)?
ShinAkuma2 12-04-06, 07:25 PM	In the sense that wearing armor gives you a failure chance? In the sense that you must have one hand free (or be using a light shield in one hand)? In the sense that when someone throws a punch or a kick, there is clearly detectable motion.
gomeztoo 12-05-06, 01:27 PM	And when someone uses a spell ability, there is, IMO, a clearly noticeable mental activity going on.
solbergb 12-05-06, 02:02 PM	My sacred exorcist generally tries to avoid displaying a sign reading "Warning: Your Alignment Has Been Checked", at least until she can figure out some way to stop the fiend / vampire spy from teleporting away as soon as they realize they've been sprung. Randomly checking with Detect Evil has allowed her to unmask quite a number of fiends and vampires, usually spies for the Old One. (In particular: *always* check lost children in the middle of nowhere, refugees moving from the frontlines to the major cities, and any group of people in a tavern.) I use arcane sight the same way. Although casting it without being noticed is more of a challenge...but worth it. "Hey, that servant sweeping the temple can cast level 9 spells! We should talk to her" "uh...the funny looking guy in the audience can cast L9 spells. Don't catch him in any area effect spells" (oops...I'm about to blow the cover of a spy who is on my side...quick...need a distraction...hey there is faint illusion in that corner, I'll just drop a glitterdust over there and see what happens!)