Detect magic after failed search check [Archive] - Wizards Community

Detect magic after failed search check [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gwumph
11-28-06, 08:21 AM Hello Folks

A situation has come up and the player (myself) and the DM have decided to ask for your opinion.

Background: We were in a store looking at goods. Due to our search check we found a magical item. Thinking there might be more we cast detect magic (was not an issue) to look for other items.
DM said we didn’t find any.

At the end of the game the DM let us know that we missed several magical items back in the store. We asked why we didn’t find them, the DM stated we must make a DC 25 search check to find them. The mod makes no mention of what happens is the party casts detect magic on finding the items. The DM said since the mod states it takes DC 25 search check to find the items, there can be no other means (including magical means to find them).

Couple of points: Module makes no mention that detect magic will not work on those items (in fact it says that detect magic will work on the first item found) .

Module makes no mention that detect magic will not work in that area.

Our argument is that since yes we failed to find the “bag of holding” tucked behind some items on a shelf, but once we cast detect magic then it should have been easy to notice it. (there were only 3 or 4 magic items in the whole shop)

The DM’s argument is that since the mod stated you need a DC 25 search check to find the “bag of holding” and we didn’t make it, that detect magic doesn’t apply since we failed our search check.

(seems like a simple answer, but both sides think they are right)

Thanks
Gwumph
JohnduBois
11-28-06, 08:27 AM Unless there's something in the adventure indicating otherwise, I see no reason that Detect Magic wouldn't work. Are you certain that:
1. There's no antimagic field or other effect that prevents the use of divination spells? (until recently, Furyondy had a pretty nasty shield over one city that made you fall unconscious most of the time you tried to divine, and I heard that in Perrenland divinations don't work at all)
2. There's nothing blocking a Detect Magic spell in the shop (e.g. lead-lined packaging, etc)?
Lupo
11-28-06, 08:36 AM Hello Folks

A situation has come up and the player (myself) and the DM have decided to ask for your opinion.

Background: We were in a store looking at goods. Due to our search check we found a magical item. Thinking there might be more we cast detect magic (was not an issue) to look for other items.
DM said we didn’t find any.

At the end of the game the DM let us know that we missed several magical items back in the store. We asked why we didn’t find them, the DM stated we must make a DC 25 search check to find them. The mod makes no mention of what happens is the party casts detect magic on finding the items. The DM said since the mod states it takes DC 25 search check to find the items, there can be no other means (including magical means to find them).

Couple of points: Module makes no mention that detect magic will not work on those items (in fact it says that detect magic will work on the first item found) .

Module makes no mention that detect magic will not work in that area.

Our argument is that since yes we failed to find the “bag of holding” tucked behind some items on a shelf, but once we cast detect magic then it should have been easy to notice it. (there were only 3 or 4 magic items in the whole shop)

The DM’s argument is that since the mod stated you need a DC 25 search check to find the “bag of holding” and we didn’t make it, that detect magic doesn’t apply since we failed our search check.

(seems like a simple answer, but both sides think they are right)

Thanks
Gwumph

i cannot say anything for the actual case, just for reference from the srd:

Each round, you can turn to detect magic in a new area. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.

so i advise writers to include tiny references to lead foil lining in furniture with secret drawers, just to make it sure and safe.

ciao

martin m.
Gwumph
11-28-06, 08:47 AM The Divination block for Perrenland is for only certain spells (mostly those communing with another plane), so yes detect magic would work.

As for the actual items they were just hidden among the junk of the room. I reread the text and it states that all items glow magical if detect magic is cast on them.

For me it seems straight forward, but our DM is adamant that we failed our search check so we can't find the items.

Any experienced DM's or triad members, your opinion would be helpful since I will be using this thread to convince our DM.
Britt
11-28-06, 09:07 AM Just the standard proviso that we are not authoritative rules sources unless making campaign rulings, which this is not. This is just my opinion as a judge.

Detect magic would definitely work. That is part of my standard search tactics is to cast the spell after doing a thorough search in any area to make sure nothing was missed and to cover wonky things like magical doors/traps/items hidden above ground level or otherwise out of the search area. There are specific conditions that block the spell and plenty of clever uses for the detect spells because of that, like detecting evil through wooden doors to see if there are evil creatures on the other side. Authors cannot possibly cover every contingency and a judge needs to remember that statements like the DC 25 are there to help adjudicate, not give comprehensive rules adjudications for every possible scenario. The only way the DC 25 would do what the judge is saying is if it said "The ONLY way to find the items is with a DC 25 Search check", and even that I would suspect as a judge.
Gwumph
11-28-06, 09:35 AM Thanks Britt

I understand everything said here is only an opinion. but the nice thing about this is you can read everyone's opinion and then decide for yourself (or as a group) how things work.

Thanks again

Gwumph
Samwise
11-28-06, 12:18 PM "What Britt said."

This is related to the auto-surprise issue that plagued the campaign in the past. Too many DMs decided that because the text didn't give a Listen or Spot check DC, none were possible, and surprise was automatic.
That is NOT the correct way to interpret any adventure text. The standard rules ALWAYS apply unless something very explicityly states why it doesn't. If they don't, if they just directly contradict a rule, then somebody missed something.
For surprise, you ALWAYS get a Listen and Spot check. The DC might be absurdly high, an invisible, silent, wizard lurking 200' away requires a DC 60 Spot check to notice something "odd" about the area before he fireballs you, but you get that Spot check!

So in this case, the items require a DC 25 search to find by physically searching for them.
Looking around for magical auras is different with a spell is different. There is no "searching" involved, just concentrating and pointing yourself in the right direction.
The same applies for magical traps. They have a Search check to find, typically 26+, but they always radiate that magical aura. Granted, you don't automatically "know" the aura is to a magical trap. It could just be an arcane mark left there to mess with your heads. But most PCs (and players) will assume the worst and, completely within reason, act accordingly.

That's how I always run adventures, and that's how I read them to review them.
copper_wyrmling
11-28-06, 12:41 PM Looking around for magical auras is different with a spell is different. There is no "searching" involved, just concentrating and pointing yourself in the right direction.
The same applies for magical traps. They have a Search check to find, typically 26+, but they always radiate that magical aura. Granted, you don't automatically "know" the aura is to a magical trap. It could just be an arcane mark left there to mess with your heads. But most PCs (and players) will assume the worst and, completely within reason, act accordingly.

What Samwise said.

My sorc recently went through a rather trap-heavy module as the party trapfinder, after our rogue had to pull out at the last minute. Just casting Detect Magic in every room worked surprisingly well (she also regularly gets quite a lot of use out of Featherfall: sadly, Detect Magic does absolutely nothing to find pit traps).
Britt
11-28-06, 12:51 PM Just a warning, don't rely on detect magic to find traps in anything I write; I'm a mean author :) I also try to spread my meanness to other authors, so beware! MWAHAHAH
Samwise
11-28-06, 12:56 PM Heh.
I said "magical traps."
Regular, mechanical traps still need a rogue.
Or someone with lots of hp.
:devil:
copper_wyrmling
11-28-06, 12:56 PM Just a warning, don't rely on detect magic to find traps in anything I write; I'm a mean author :) I also try to spread my meanness to other authors, so beware! MWAHAHAH

You use Nystul's Magic Aura, maybe? Or some other tricks?

*mourns that she missed playing The Madhouse with a Wild Mage due to leaving Australia two weeks before the premiere*
Britt
11-28-06, 01:02 PM I'm not telling you my nasty tricks! ;) I wish you could have played it, too. I think a Wild Mage would have had fun in that.
copper_wyrmling
11-28-06, 02:00 PM I'm not telling you my nasty tricks! ;) I wish you could have played it, too. I think a Wild Mage would have had fun in that.

Oh, I *will* play it, trust me (I got a flurry of emails after SRDU telling me that I HAD to play Madhouse and Dragon Bloodline with my crazy dragonkin wild mage). I just need to get back to the Iuz metaregion... *weeps for the loss of her beloved Iuz modules* :weep: Do you nice BK people have any cons in January? ;)
Britt
11-28-06, 02:08 PM There's Owlcon in Houston at the end of January or early February. I think it's the first week of Feb.
Japangirl
11-28-06, 03:57 PM There should be a Con in Jan or Feb in the Dallas area as well, though it's likely to be rather small as this is the first year.

The Detect Magic should definitely have found all the magical items, as stated by Britt and Samwise. I see no reason to repeat their reasons :).
ShinAkuma2
11-28-06, 05:53 PM This is kind of like saying that the Fly spell won't work because because the mod says you "need" a DC 30 Climb check.

Magic oftentimes makes skill checks extraneous...That's what it's there for.
Arvagor
11-28-06, 06:45 PM Heh.
I said "magical traps."
Regular, mechanical traps still need a rogue.
Or someone with lots of hp.
:devil:
Nah, that's what detect secret doors, detect snares and pits, and find traps are for. Oddly enough, detect secret doors is better for locating certain traps than find traps is -- certainly at least for concealed pit traps...
Britt
11-28-06, 07:31 PM Heh.
I said "magical traps."
Regular, mechanical traps still need a rogue.
Or someone with lots of hp.
:devil:
I know; those are the kinds of traps I was talking about, too :D In my mods, you better have a rogue for the magical ones as well.
jstorrie
11-29-06, 12:48 AM You should contact your triad if you think the judging was in error and the access is that important to you. Odds are that the judge's ruling will stand, but it won't hurt to ask along the proper channels.
JJeff
11-29-06, 01:05 AM Well, I personally would allow the Detect Magic, but require you to do a Spot check instead if you had already done your search check since you would now be scanning the area to find 'aura-ed' items and not picking through items one by one.

I ran a Perrenland Year 5 game that involved finding items in a store while shopping and gathering info. My players did just that (search, then casting detect magic after) and I did what I said above.
Puggle Halfwine
11-30-06, 11:07 AM Oh, I *will* play it, trust me (I got a flurry of emails after SRDU telling me that I HAD to play Madhouse and Dragon Bloodline with my crazy dragonkin wild mage). I just need to get back to the Iuz metaregion... *weeps for the loss of her beloved Iuz modules* :weep: Do you nice BK people have any cons in January? ;)

I suspect that, if you do play it with Azrien, this module will almost certainly become your favorite module ever... assuming you have even a half-decent GM. ;)
DerekSTheRed
12-06-06, 07:57 PM Oh, I *will* play it, trust me (I got a flurry of emails after SRDU telling me that I HAD to play Madhouse and Dragon Bloodline with my crazy dragonkin wild mage). I just need to get back to the Iuz metaregion... *weeps for the loss of her beloved Iuz modules* :weep: Do you nice BK people have any cons in January? ;)

As JapanGirl said, there's a con in Dallas, January 26-28 called GKon. http://www.warhorn.net/gcon/

Dragon Bloodline is on the schedule but Madhouse is not. You could probably get a midnight madness game going though.

Derek
Britt
12-06-06, 09:27 PM You don't want to play Madhouse during midnight madness, trust me.
Japangirl
12-07-06, 12:43 AM Britt wrote it, he should know :). And as someone who played it, I completely agree.
LachlarlanIII
12-07-06, 03:21 PM This thread is headed for derailing.

With that said, Britt, Madhouse was one of the best LG mods I've played... Ever.

I played it as an insane wizard who worships Zagyg.
Britt
12-07-06, 03:44 PM Thanks, I appreciate that :) Be sure to thank your DM, as that mod is heavily DM dependant as well.
_m_
12-07-06, 05:32 PM This thread is headed for derailing.

With that said, Britt, Madhouse was one of the best LG mods I've played... Ever.

I played it as an insane wizard who worships Zagyg.

no freakin way!!!

I played an insane wizard who worships Zagyg in mad house too!!

what are the odds!?!?!? thats awsum.

incidentally, i was lucky enough to actually have britt DM madhouse when i played it! :cloud9:

*sticks tongue out*
DuctShuiTengu
12-07-06, 11:12 PM no freakin way!!!

I played an insane wizard who worships Zagyg in mad house too!!

what are the odds!?!?!? thats awsum.

incidentally, i was lucky enough to actually have britt DM madhouse when i played it! :cloud9:

*sticks tongue out*

There are insane wizards who don't worship Zagyg?

PC insane wizards, I mean. The nutty NPCs who worship Iuz or Vecna don't count.
Lupo
12-08-06, 01:14 AM There are insane wizards who don't worship Zagyg?

PC insane wizards, I mean. The nutty NPCs who worship Iuz or Vecna don't count.

i always thought an unwritten law makes it mandatory for insane wizards to worship zagyg :D

:bounce:

ZAGYG RULEZ

ciao

martin m.

ps: i know at least three of these

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gwumph 11-28-06, 08:21 AM	Hello Folks A situation has come up and the player (myself) and the DM have decided to ask for your opinion. Background: We were in a store looking at goods. Due to our search check we found a magical item. Thinking there might be more we cast detect magic (was not an issue) to look for other items. DM said we didn’t find any. At the end of the game the DM let us know that we missed several magical items back in the store. We asked why we didn’t find them, the DM stated we must make a DC 25 search check to find them. The mod makes no mention of what happens is the party casts detect magic on finding the items. The DM said since the mod states it takes DC 25 search check to find the items, there can be no other means (including magical means to find them). Couple of points: Module makes no mention that detect magic will not work on those items (in fact it says that detect magic will work on the first item found) . Module makes no mention that detect magic will not work in that area. Our argument is that since yes we failed to find the “bag of holding” tucked behind some items on a shelf, but once we cast detect magic then it should have been easy to notice it. (there were only 3 or 4 magic items in the whole shop) The DM’s argument is that since the mod stated you need a DC 25 search check to find the “bag of holding” and we didn’t make it, that detect magic doesn’t apply since we failed our search check. (seems like a simple answer, but both sides think they are right) Thanks Gwumph
JohnduBois 11-28-06, 08:27 AM	Unless there's something in the adventure indicating otherwise, I see no reason that Detect Magic wouldn't work. Are you certain that: 1. There's no antimagic field or other effect that prevents the use of divination spells? (until recently, Furyondy had a pretty nasty shield over one city that made you fall unconscious most of the time you tried to divine, and I heard that in Perrenland divinations don't work at all) 2. There's nothing blocking a Detect Magic spell in the shop (e.g. lead-lined packaging, etc)?
Lupo 11-28-06, 08:36 AM	Hello Folks A situation has come up and the player (myself) and the DM have decided to ask for your opinion. Background: We were in a store looking at goods. Due to our search check we found a magical item. Thinking there might be more we cast detect magic (was not an issue) to look for other items. DM said we didn’t find any. At the end of the game the DM let us know that we missed several magical items back in the store. We asked why we didn’t find them, the DM stated we must make a DC 25 search check to find them. The mod makes no mention of what happens is the party casts detect magic on finding the items. The DM said since the mod states it takes DC 25 search check to find the items, there can be no other means (including magical means to find them). Couple of points: Module makes no mention that detect magic will not work on those items (in fact it says that detect magic will work on the first item found) . Module makes no mention that detect magic will not work in that area. Our argument is that since yes we failed to find the “bag of holding” tucked behind some items on a shelf, but once we cast detect magic then it should have been easy to notice it. (there were only 3 or 4 magic items in the whole shop) The DM’s argument is that since the mod stated you need a DC 25 search check to find the “bag of holding” and we didn’t make it, that detect magic doesn’t apply since we failed our search check. (seems like a simple answer, but both sides think they are right) Thanks Gwumph i cannot say anything for the actual case, just for reference from the srd: Each round, you can turn to detect magic in a new area. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it. so i advise writers to include tiny references to lead foil lining in furniture with secret drawers, just to make it sure and safe. ciao martin m.
Gwumph 11-28-06, 08:47 AM	The Divination block for Perrenland is for only certain spells (mostly those communing with another plane), so yes detect magic would work. As for the actual items they were just hidden among the junk of the room. I reread the text and it states that all items glow magical if detect magic is cast on them. For me it seems straight forward, but our DM is adamant that we failed our search check so we can't find the items. Any experienced DM's or triad members, your opinion would be helpful since I will be using this thread to convince our DM.
Britt 11-28-06, 09:07 AM	Just the standard proviso that we are not authoritative rules sources unless making campaign rulings, which this is not. This is just my opinion as a judge. Detect magic would definitely work. That is part of my standard search tactics is to cast the spell after doing a thorough search in any area to make sure nothing was missed and to cover wonky things like magical doors/traps/items hidden above ground level or otherwise out of the search area. There are specific conditions that block the spell and plenty of clever uses for the detect spells because of that, like detecting evil through wooden doors to see if there are evil creatures on the other side. Authors cannot possibly cover every contingency and a judge needs to remember that statements like the DC 25 are there to help adjudicate, not give comprehensive rules adjudications for every possible scenario. The only way the DC 25 would do what the judge is saying is if it said "The ONLY way to find the items is with a DC 25 Search check", and even that I would suspect as a judge.
Gwumph 11-28-06, 09:35 AM	Thanks Britt I understand everything said here is only an opinion. but the nice thing about this is you can read everyone's opinion and then decide for yourself (or as a group) how things work. Thanks again Gwumph
Samwise 11-28-06, 12:18 PM	"What Britt said." This is related to the auto-surprise issue that plagued the campaign in the past. Too many DMs decided that because the text didn't give a Listen or Spot check DC, none were possible, and surprise was automatic. That is NOT the correct way to interpret any adventure text. The standard rules ALWAYS apply unless something very explicityly states why it doesn't. If they don't, if they just directly contradict a rule, then somebody missed something. For surprise, you ALWAYS get a Listen and Spot check. The DC might be absurdly high, an invisible, silent, wizard lurking 200' away requires a DC 60 Spot check to notice something "odd" about the area before he fireballs you, but you get that Spot check! So in this case, the items require a DC 25 search to find by physically searching for them. Looking around for magical auras is different with a spell is different. There is no "searching" involved, just concentrating and pointing yourself in the right direction. The same applies for magical traps. They have a Search check to find, typically 26+, but they always radiate that magical aura. Granted, you don't automatically "know" the aura is to a magical trap. It could just be an arcane mark left there to mess with your heads. But most PCs (and players) will assume the worst and, completely within reason, act accordingly. That's how I always run adventures, and that's how I read them to review them.
copper_wyrmling 11-28-06, 12:41 PM	Looking around for magical auras is different with a spell is different. There is no "searching" involved, just concentrating and pointing yourself in the right direction. The same applies for magical traps. They have a Search check to find, typically 26+, but they always radiate that magical aura. Granted, you don't automatically "know" the aura is to a magical trap. It could just be an arcane mark left there to mess with your heads. But most PCs (and players) will assume the worst and, completely within reason, act accordingly. What Samwise said. My sorc recently went through a rather trap-heavy module as the party trapfinder, after our rogue had to pull out at the last minute. Just casting Detect Magic in every room worked surprisingly well (she also regularly gets quite a lot of use out of Featherfall: sadly, Detect Magic does absolutely nothing to find pit traps).
Britt 11-28-06, 12:51 PM	Just a warning, don't rely on detect magic to find traps in anything I write; I'm a mean author :) I also try to spread my meanness to other authors, so beware! MWAHAHAH
Samwise 11-28-06, 12:56 PM	Heh. I said "magical traps." Regular, mechanical traps still need a rogue. Or someone with lots of hp. :devil:
copper_wyrmling 11-28-06, 12:56 PM	Just a warning, don't rely on detect magic to find traps in anything I write; I'm a mean author :) I also try to spread my meanness to other authors, so beware! MWAHAHAH You use Nystul's Magic Aura, maybe? Or some other tricks? mourns that she missed playing The Madhouse with a Wild Mage due to leaving Australia two weeks before the premiere
Britt 11-28-06, 01:02 PM	I'm not telling you my nasty tricks! ;) I wish you could have played it, too. I think a Wild Mage would have had fun in that.
copper_wyrmling 11-28-06, 02:00 PM	I'm not telling you my nasty tricks! ;) I wish you could have played it, too. I think a Wild Mage would have had fun in that. Oh, I will play it, trust me (I got a flurry of emails after SRDU telling me that I HAD to play Madhouse and Dragon Bloodline with my crazy dragonkin wild mage). I just need to get back to the Iuz metaregion... weeps for the loss of her beloved Iuz modules :weep: Do you nice BK people have any cons in January? ;)
Britt 11-28-06, 02:08 PM	There's Owlcon in Houston at the end of January or early February. I think it's the first week of Feb.
Japangirl 11-28-06, 03:57 PM	There should be a Con in Jan or Feb in the Dallas area as well, though it's likely to be rather small as this is the first year. The Detect Magic should definitely have found all the magical items, as stated by Britt and Samwise. I see no reason to repeat their reasons :).
ShinAkuma2 11-28-06, 05:53 PM	This is kind of like saying that the Fly spell won't work because because the mod says you "need" a DC 30 Climb check. Magic oftentimes makes skill checks extraneous...That's what it's there for.
Arvagor 11-28-06, 06:45 PM	Heh. I said "magical traps." Regular, mechanical traps still need a rogue. Or someone with lots of hp. :devil: Nah, that's what detect secret doors, detect snares and pits, and find traps are for. Oddly enough, detect secret doors is better for locating certain traps than find traps is -- certainly at least for concealed pit traps...
Britt 11-28-06, 07:31 PM	Heh. I said "magical traps." Regular, mechanical traps still need a rogue. Or someone with lots of hp. :devil: I know; those are the kinds of traps I was talking about, too :D In my mods, you better have a rogue for the magical ones as well.
jstorrie 11-29-06, 12:48 AM	You should contact your triad if you think the judging was in error and the access is that important to you. Odds are that the judge's ruling will stand, but it won't hurt to ask along the proper channels.
JJeff 11-29-06, 01:05 AM	Well, I personally would allow the Detect Magic, but require you to do a Spot check instead if you had already done your search check since you would now be scanning the area to find 'aura-ed' items and not picking through items one by one. I ran a Perrenland Year 5 game that involved finding items in a store while shopping and gathering info. My players did just that (search, then casting detect magic after) and I did what I said above.
Puggle Halfwine 11-30-06, 11:07 AM	Oh, I will play it, trust me (I got a flurry of emails after SRDU telling me that I HAD to play Madhouse and Dragon Bloodline with my crazy dragonkin wild mage). I just need to get back to the Iuz metaregion... weeps for the loss of her beloved Iuz modules :weep: Do you nice BK people have any cons in January? ;) I suspect that, if you do play it with Azrien, this module will almost certainly become your favorite module ever... assuming you have even a half-decent GM. ;)
DerekSTheRed 12-06-06, 07:57 PM	Oh, I will play it, trust me (I got a flurry of emails after SRDU telling me that I HAD to play Madhouse and Dragon Bloodline with my crazy dragonkin wild mage). I just need to get back to the Iuz metaregion... weeps for the loss of her beloved Iuz modules :weep: Do you nice BK people have any cons in January? ;) As JapanGirl said, there's a con in Dallas, January 26-28 called GKon. http://www.warhorn.net/gcon/ Dragon Bloodline is on the schedule but Madhouse is not. You could probably get a midnight madness game going though. Derek
Britt 12-06-06, 09:27 PM	You don't want to play Madhouse during midnight madness, trust me.
Japangirl 12-07-06, 12:43 AM	Britt wrote it, he should know :). And as someone who played it, I completely agree.
LachlarlanIII 12-07-06, 03:21 PM	This thread is headed for derailing. With that said, Britt, Madhouse was one of the best LG mods I've played... Ever. I played it as an insane wizard who worships Zagyg.
Britt 12-07-06, 03:44 PM	Thanks, I appreciate that :) Be sure to thank your DM, as that mod is heavily DM dependant as well.
_m_ 12-07-06, 05:32 PM	This thread is headed for derailing. With that said, Britt, Madhouse was one of the best LG mods I've played... Ever. I played it as an insane wizard who worships Zagyg. no freakin way!!! I played an insane wizard who worships Zagyg in mad house too!! what are the odds!?!?!? thats awsum. incidentally, i was lucky enough to actually have britt DM madhouse when i played it! :cloud9: sticks tongue out
DuctShuiTengu 12-07-06, 11:12 PM	no freakin way!!! I played an insane wizard who worships Zagyg in mad house too!! what are the odds!?!?!? thats awsum. incidentally, i was lucky enough to actually have britt DM madhouse when i played it! :cloud9: sticks tongue out There are insane wizards who don't worship Zagyg? PC insane wizards, I mean. The nutty NPCs who worship Iuz or Vecna don't count.
Lupo 12-08-06, 01:14 AM	There are insane wizards who don't worship Zagyg? PC insane wizards, I mean. The nutty NPCs who worship Iuz or Vecna don't count. i always thought an unwritten law makes it mandatory for insane wizards to worship zagyg :D :bounce: ZAGYG RULEZ ciao martin m. ps: i know at least three of these