Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bold 03-07-07, 12:02 PM	Has anyone heard much about the challenge level of the finale to the Bright Sands story arc, "COR6-16: Dominion Over Bright Sands"? I don't know anyone who's played it or run it, but a couple of reports (including one over at the LG DM's forum) indicate it's extraordinarily difficult, especially at its lowest level of APL6. TPKs, near-TPKs, etc. One judge said, "Dominion is as hard, if not harder, than a core special." For those of you who've played or run this mod, is that an accurate assessment of this adventure's difficulty level? I'd love to play the finale with my Bright Sands character, but he's also the PC I'll play in Red Hand of Doom--this would be an especially bad time for an unrecoverable death. ;) I'm trying to avoid spoilers, so please don't include any adventure details if you've played or run this one.
12tanis 03-07-07, 12:23 PM	Being both a player and A GM for the Module i can safely say without spoiling too much that even a complete Party of APL 6 Adventurers has a very slim chance of survival. An under APL Party has actually a chance that would be close to zero. Even managing to crit with every Hit wont suffice. My advice : play Red Hand first and then Dominion... but since thats almost impossible (unless you started playing Red Hand last year) good luck and may the dice favor the bold ... i sure know they didnt favor us
Jay_Ibero_911 03-07-07, 12:27 PM	I have both played and ran it....full and balanced tables in both cases. It is certainly CHALLENGING....and at some points may require a little luck. Overall, as long as you have a solid party and play smart, you should be fine.
Japangirl 03-07-07, 12:33 PM	I agree with Jay. I played it high (APL 14), and it was pretty nasty, but definitely doable. Just requires a solid table and smart tactics, mostly.
kenobi65 03-07-07, 01:00 PM	Played it at APL 8 a couple of weeks ago, with a balanced party at the strong end of APL 8. Definitely challenging, and we definitely had our share of luck enter into it (both good and bad), but we succeeded with no losses (though some close calls).
GreatSiron 03-07-07, 01:00 PM	Does a Lvl 5 wizard with high DC's have a chance? Anything I should bring along? Scrolls of false life perhaps?
Timlagor 03-07-07, 02:30 PM	Does a Lvl 5 wizard with high DC's have a chance? Anything I should bring along? Scrolls of false life perhaps? You have access to a 9th level cleric? :D I don't know anything about this module but it's sounding like a really really bad thing to do to those of us who have Bright Lands characters for this arc and don't do much else with them.. and will therefore be hard pressed to get to 6th level for it. ..please don't tell me it's another one that centaurs simply can't enjoy too. (I take it for granted that it won't be set in the desert)
kenobi65 03-07-07, 02:33 PM	removed
bitznarf 03-07-07, 02:51 PM	Does a Lvl 5 wizard with high DC's have a chance? Anything I should bring along? Scrolls of false life perhaps? I wouldn't say that. :) Getting darn close to spoiler terittory here.
bertman4 03-07-07, 02:54 PM	At APL6, this module is very deadly IF run correctly. Many judges simply do not read the tactics and the special abilities correctly. (removed as requested) Bertman
LachlarlanIII 03-07-07, 03:03 PM	Now that is a spoiler. Please remove it.
Redfist 03-07-07, 03:08 PM	Yeah - that was a BIG spoiler...
Franco Un-American 03-07-07, 04:12 PM	We didn't find it too horribly bad, but that's probably because my cleric was playing waaaayyy down (this was before the new LGCS). I pretty much soloed one particularly nasty enemy with the help of a useful trinket, and we were able to figure out where the final fight would be, and were able to buff accordingly. I could see this being a massive challenge to a normal APL 6 group, though.
jstorrie 03-07-07, 08:12 PM	My group played up about a half level to APL6 and we didn't have too much trouble. The encounters were difficult, but not impossible, and we had no deaths.
GenghisBob 03-07-07, 09:17 PM	We played APL14 and it was dicey, at one stage we told the Archer to run for it so if it Came to a TPK, some one could recover our bodies, but in the end we overcame. I found RHoD just as deadly if not more. - but differnt charcters differnt APL differnt DM but just as hard as the Dominion one. whilst i know the aim is to have fun and not turn away people from the game, it has been a joy to play these very difficult mods and feel as though death was on the cards for my PC. This aspect of the game has certainly been lacking in many other modules.
Redfist 03-07-07, 09:19 PM	I played at APL 14 and we did fine. There was one encounter were we had to pull out some heavy duty spells but that's to be expected. I watched an APL 6 game run and 3/5 PCs died in the first fight and then called it quits. ymmv
WizO_Shadow 03-07-07, 10:58 PM	Thank you for removing the spoilers. Please just be more careful in the future! WizO_Shadow
mlund 03-08-07, 04:28 PM	Play down. From what feedback I've received several of the encounters aren't properly designed to be APL appropriate, especially at APLs 6 and 8. - Marty Lund
Redfist 03-08-07, 04:38 PM	I think they were designed appropriately. We all know you can make things fit into ELs that seem overpowered. The EL system isn't perfect - we all know that. However, this is also the concluding module to an 11 module series. It *should* be tough. Anyone who plays up in a concluding module of an 11 part series should be worried.
echoota 03-08-07, 05:52 PM	Bleh... Thanks for the tip, despite wanting to finish the series I'll probably just skip the mod. I find overtly difficult modules to be no fun at all, just stressful and irritating.
Hariman 03-08-07, 05:57 PM	Dang, that means my Rogue2/Wizard3 will need a good party to make it. Hopefully, we can get a group that was better than the one we took through Beneath the Bright Sands. (Three 6s and three 4s, it was close but we made it.) The players we had were of the best caliber too.
awroe 03-08-07, 06:23 PM	However, this is also the concluding module to an 11 module series. It *should* be tough. Anyone who plays up in a concluding module of an 11 part series should be worried. I dont't mind it being tough, it's the APL 6 minimum that I dislike - if you play all the modules with one character you end up at 4th level, so you have to play a good number of extra modules to have a chance at playing the last end. Since I didn't realise this last year and have been playing with other characters, it's going to be hard to get high enough. Hopefully this won't be the same with the Greyhawk arc, as most people will be introducing two new characters this year - one for the arc and one with Scourge, reducing the number of modules each of these can play.
ragecage79 03-08-07, 08:33 PM	Hopefully this won't be the same with the Greyhawk arc, as most people will be introducing two new characters this year - one for the arc and one with Scourge, reducing the number of modules each of these can play. From what I've heard on these boards, it sounds like it will be that way. I think it was said by a circle member that the Greyhawk mods will not be enough to level a character to the point that they can play in the super adventure. You will have to play other mods with your Greyhawk character to be able to get them to a high enough level.
GreatSiron 03-09-07, 12:38 AM	Asking anyone who's played the mod: is it worth it? Is it worth the fact that the mod has a high fatality rate? Is the AR that good? No spoliers, just a yes or no answer will be fine.
Eric Anondson 03-09-07, 02:35 AM	Eh. I'm okay with the AR. For me, I played an 8th-level character at APL 10. I dunno. Maybe we were well prepared throughout, but it felt like an average challenging adventure to me... maybe a bit below. Then again, I wasn't at APL 6 with a 4th-level character.
Sieylianna 03-09-07, 07:39 AM	I dont't mind it being tough, it's the APL 6 minimum that I dislike - if you play all the modules with one character you end up at 4th level, so you have to play a good number of extra modules to have a chance at playing the last end. Since I didn't realise this last year and have been playing with other characters, it's going to be hard to get high enough. I agree with this. If you start a campaign arc with a new PC, you should be able to play all the modules in that arc, without playing additional modules. Some of us have 8-10 PCs, if you want us to create a new PC for your particular story, then realize that story is his niche and don't count on them playing a lot of additional modules. Ed
GreatSiron 03-09-07, 12:04 PM	Yeah, on second thought I think I'll wait on this mod until my wizard is at least 6th lvl (or higher). I was going to play it a con next week, (along with all the other year 6 bright sands mods), but I figure I'd be better off playing some regionals. (I can always play bright sands online.)
The_Jester 03-11-07, 04:41 PM	I agree with this. If you start a campaign arc with a new PC, you should be able to play all the modules in that arc, without playing additional modules. Some of us have 8-10 PCs, if you want us to create a new PC for your particular story, then realize that story is his niche and don't count on them playing a lot of additional modules. Ed With the increased xp from being "Core Specials" the absolute maximum number of ARs is 13-14, not including the finale. You'd be lucky to reach level four or five but it IS possible. A full table of L5 characters and pets might reach APL6. So it is possible to run through all the Brightsands mods with a single character without playing other mods. But really, 8-10 PCs? That more than one for every APL...
Gallaway 03-13-07, 07:09 PM	I dont't mind it being tough, it's the APL 6 minimum that I dislike - if you play all the modules with one character you end up at 4th level, so you have to play a good number of extra modules to have a chance at playing the last end. Since I didn't realise this last year and have been playing with other characters, it's going to be hard to get high enough. Hopefully this won't be the same with the Greyhawk arc, as most people will be introducing two new characters this year - one for the arc and one with Scourge, reducing the number of modules each of these can play. The unfortunate thing is the people who took Bright Sands seriously and created Centaurs, Asherati etc are the ones struggling to finish the arc with the characters. Not only are these characters generally only level 4 or 5 but a Centaur is still "fragile" at level 5 as it doesnt get full hit dice progression until after 6. People who just saw Bright Sands as a good dip to pick up funky access with their primary non-Bright Sands character really do not have a problem.
clannagh 03-13-07, 07:16 PM	With the increased xp from being "Core Specials" the absolute maximum number of ARs is 13-14, not including the finale. You'd be lucky to reach level four or five but it IS possible. A full table of L5 characters and pets might reach APL6. So it is possible to run through all the Brightsands mods with a single character without playing other mods. But really, 8-10 PCs? That more than one for every APL... Some people are not interested in racing through the levels to retire after 2 years with just one character. I currently run ... level 1 rogue level 2 cleric level 2 swashbuckler level 4 paladin level 5 tank level 6 medium fighter level 7 archer I also have permanently dead .. level 1 TWF dwarf level 2 mounted fighter level 4 cleric plus numerous unplayed level 1 characters drawn up "just for fun"
Cardinal Teplin 03-13-07, 07:43 PM	Some people are not interested in racing through the levels to retire after 2 years with just one character. Whereas others don't really feel they are in a 'campaign' unless they can play different mods with the same character. If I wanted a different character each time, I'd play in one-offs. I've been playing since year one and have: 15th level 7th level 5th level (Bright Sands!) 4th level (semi retired - I don't like playing him, and probably won't in future) If I play all the regional intros, intro adaptables, and Greyhawk ruins, I'll be starting three new characters. Of those only one will get beyond 1st level and become a character I regularly play, even assuming I end up playing all the mods. There are about 40 mods a year. If I had 10 characters, assuming not a perfectly even split. I'd be playing some of them only once or twice a year. That simply isn't enough for them for me to consider them part of actual campaign. I play LG because it's a campaign game. If I have to maintain a large stable of characters to participate, I'm going to end up losing interest pretty darn fast.
The_Jester 03-13-07, 07:46 PM	Your highest level character is L7? How long have you been playing? I don't like racing through mods and levels but I like to be able to play the mods that start at APL8 or 10 without taking half and risking a messy death. I do agree about the centaur problem. That is an excellent point. The ECL/LA system is screwy and it really hurts the centaurs.
Redfist 03-13-07, 08:22 PM	Two points about "the centaur problem". 1. Nothing prohibits centaurs from playing in other mods (at least not many of them). They *can* level higher than 5th by this point. 2. Nothing forces people to play Dominion right when it is released. It has an expiration date of "not real soon" (ie: end of the year). Play some mods, level some. Then play Dominion. I don't see the huge problem honestly. Remember - this is a campaign. It's called "Living Greyhawk". This isn't "Living Bright Sands" where you are limited to just bright sands mods.
Genghis Cohen 03-13-07, 08:29 PM	Nothing forces people to play Dominion right when it is released. It has an expiration date of "not real soon" (ie: end of NEXT year). Play some mods, level some. Then play Dominion.It retires at the end of this year. Less than 9 months to play it.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-13-07, 08:41 PM	It retires at the end of this year. Less than 9 months to play it. And let's see...The first bright sands mod was a year 5...so 3 years of TU's to burn, finishing off with Dominion. You can play a LOT of mods in 9 months...
Redfist 03-13-07, 08:42 PM	My bad - I knew that but typed the wrong thing. I editted my post. However, my point stands. The mod to create a centaur was a year 5 mod (COR5-06). The finale mod retires at the end of year 7. Even if someone started 12/31/05, they still have all of '06 and all of '07 to play "the series" along with other mods. That's 102 TUs worst case (2 + 52 + 52 - 4(dominion)) of play before starting Dominion. Surely someone can reach 6th level in 102 TUs to play Dominion at APL 6 without "playing up"? I may be recalling incorrectly, but I thought someone surmised that by playing in just the series, you'd reach 5th level. If that's the case, sprinkle in a few non-series mods and bamn - you're 6th. I'm still not seeing the huge problem.
Genghis Cohen 03-13-07, 10:24 PM	And let's see...The first bright sands mod was a year 5...so 3 years of TU's to burn, finishing off with Dominion. You can play a LOT of mods in 9 months...Very true. My Bright Sands character is my #3 and he was 9th level until he died in the DDXP core special. Hopefully he'll be back at 9th after ConnCon next weekend.
clannagh 03-13-07, 11:08 PM	Your highest level character is L7? How long have you been playing? I don't like racing through mods and levels but I like to be able to play the mods that start at APL8 or 10 without taking half and risking a messy death. 3 years .. but I used to GM a lot and also as i said, i am in no rush to level anything, in fact I am currently trying to get a character at every level (level not APL) just for my own amusement. I am aware of one local player who created his first LG character in December (3 months ago) and is already hitting level 6/7 somewhere.
The_Jester 03-15-07, 12:31 AM	Well, after a year of playing I'm only 7 with a 3 and 2 (the latter being due to 3-round intro mod). I don't think I'm rushing, I just like playing, enjoy my main and don't get so bored I need to try out a new concept every week. I rather dislike the low levels and couldn't stand only being able to play APL 2-4. Centaurs are only really designed for some mods. In the Brightsand mods you know the writers consider them and won't have climbing a ladder or rope and essential part, or walking around a city. Other mods aren't so fortunate and having a centaur can cripple a party.
bitznarf 03-15-07, 01:11 AM	Centaurs are only really designed for some mods. In the Brightsand mods you know the writers consider them and won't have climbing a ladder or rope and essential part, or walking around a city. Other mods aren't so fortunate and having a centaur can cripple a party. I would think that players with centaurs should try to anticipate such problems. I know of at least one centaur PC who has such things as a potion of fly, and a potion of gaseous form for just such problems.
awroe 03-15-07, 04:29 AM	That's 102 TUs worst case (2 + 52 + 52 - 4(dominion)) of play before starting Dominion. Surely someone can reach 6th level in 102 TUs to play Dominion at APL 6 without "playing up"? *IF* you can play all 102 of those TUs I've already lost 20ish due to being lost, and am taking 2TUs per regional. It's also a problem because: a) My Bright Lands character isn't my primary, or my secondary, so the extra module time has been limited to events where neither of my other characters were suitable - not very often. b) I didn't know in advance that I would be required to play extra modules to play the last part, so have been playing them with my other characters c) Many of these modules have been Stormwrack-based 'Not for the water fearing' adventures - hardly a good choice for Asherati. d) There have been *a lot* of APL10-16 modules that couldn't be played with my Bright Lands character. AW.
Cardinal Teplin 03-15-07, 11:47 AM	I'm getting very confused. On the discussion of the 3rd level rule, various people are telling me it's bad, evil and wrong to try and play a particular character for a particular mod. You should maintain a "large stable of characters" and use one closest to the particular APL for the table you happen to be at. Over on this list, people are telling me that the Bright Sands Series is entirely reasonable in going from starting character to APL 6 minimum, because you could play all the other core mods with the same character to get him to a high enough level. So which is it? They can't both be true.
Bold 03-15-07, 12:28 PM	There are about 40 mods a year. If I had 10 characters, assuming not a perfectly even split. I'd be playing some of them only once or twice a year. I'm just about to create my 10th character, but that wasn't my initial plan. ;) Originally, I created four iconic characters: a fighter, a cleric, a wizard, and a rogue, spread out over several APLs. I created a fifth character (half-orc barbarian) that was optimized solely for 1st-level and I planned to use him only for Intro mods, retiring him each time he reached 2nd-level. See, I didn't want more than four characters... But then Mad God's Key came around. "Hmm, I need a new PC. I've always wanted a size-small mounted character!" #6 And then the Bright Sands arc. "Hey, a centaur would be fun! A centaur with a spiked chain." #7 And then one of the nearby regions "reset" their story arc, and I needed a new character. "Hmm, how 'bout an archer?" #8 By this time I was running out of APL2-capable characters (my new archer could only be played in that one region, due to story reasons), so I needed another low-level PC. "What's left? Maybe a druid. Ah, a druid chef... who cooks his own animal companions! Genius!" #9 Greyhawk Ruins? Sounds great! Time for another character. "Hmm, how 'bout... No, did that one. Maybe... no, got one of those. Ah HA! A low-INT high-CHA male-model bard/marshall/dragon disciple named Derek Keolander! Really, really, really, ridiculously good-looking... and he breakdance-fights!" #10 Okay, I think I've lost it.
taylorj 03-15-07, 01:01 PM	I'm getting very confused. On the discussion of the 3rd level rule, various people are telling me it's bad, evil and wrong to try and play a particular character for a particular mod. You should maintain a "large stable of characters" and use one closest to the particular APL for the table you happen to be at. Over on this list, people are telling me that the Bright Sands Series is entirely reasonable in going from starting character to APL 6 minimum, because you could play all the other core mods with the same character to get him to a high enough level. So which is it? They can't both be true. This is something of an manufactured contradiction. The suggestion raised in the 3rd level rule thread is that you should maintain a low-APL character in case you can't find mods for your high-level. The suggestion raised in this thread is that you should play your low-APL centaur until he's high enough. Ie, the suggestions are the same - be willing to play at low APL (2-6). Since you can play up as far as you want, and can play down as long as you're no higher than APL +3, then you would only have a problem if your locals only ran games at maximum APL (8-16) forcing you to play up all the time. Even then, you could legally play in those mods. Even if your locals only ran games at the absolute minimum APL (2-4), for the purposes of levelling up a centaur to level 6 to play Dominion at APL 6, you would be legally able to play in every single one of those games until you reach level 6 (at which point you cannot play APL 2 any longer). Since the goal in the first place was to reach APL 6, this is not much of a problem. Ergo, there is no contradiction between these two suggestions.
Eric Anondson 03-15-07, 01:33 PM	Greyhawk Ruins? Sounds great! Time for another character. "Hmm, how 'bout... No, did that one. Maybe... no, got one of those. Ah HA! A low-INT high-CHA male-model bard/marshall/dragon disciple named Derek Keolander! Really, really, really, ridiculously good-looking... and he breakdance-fights!" #10 Okay, I think I've lost it.Oh man, I think I want to play at a table with Derek Keolander...
Cardinal Teplin 03-15-07, 02:13 PM	You're getting mixed up between the level 3 rule itself, and the comments made about play style on the threads discussing that rule. My point concerned the principle about whether or not people should be choosing to play certain characters for certain mods, or not. To fit in with a campaign thread, be it a series of mods in a linked storyline, or something more formal like the Bright Sands or Greyhawk Ruins story Arcs, you need to be able to play the mods with a particular character, not just the one that happens to be convenient for the level of the table. The very idea of a story arc or series suggests some form of continuity with a single character, and the adventures themselves generally reflect this principle. The suggestions raised on 3 level rule threads have been to maintain a large stable of characters (10 or more has been suggested), and play whichever suits the level of the table. Hence the phrase 'large stable of characters' and 'you can always play a 1st level' (ie start a new character for the purposes of that table) that crop up so regularly. These two are contradictory principles. Playing one character to the exclusion of all others to level him in time for the finish of the story arc is contradictory to the principle of choosing a character purely on the basis of the APL of the table you end up at. I'm presently trying to put together a table for the two-round Rallying point on Bright Sands mod. Difficult, since most people I know have already played it, and I want a table that my Bright Sands character can play at. I'd like to think it's worth the effort. Should I just be playing the Bright Sands Arc, or any other series, as a series of random Cores?
taylorj 03-15-07, 02:27 PM	You're getting mixed up between the level 3 rule itself, and the comments made about play style on the threads discussing that rule. My point concerned the principle about whether or not people should be choosing to play certain characters for certain mods, or not. <snip> These two are contradictory principles. Playing one character to the exclusion of all others to level him in time for the finish of the story arc is contradictory to the principle of choosing a character purely on the basis of the APL of the table you end up at. That depends on wether that's how you choose to view those two organizational principles. In this particular situation they are only contradictory if you choose to view them as such. In other words, if you can can both play your preferred character and your preferred character is suitable for the (low) APL, as is the case in this scenario, then the ideas do not contradict each other. I can see how this lack of contradiction might be puzzling.
Timlagor 03-15-07, 02:46 PM	In the Brightsand mods you know the writers consider [centaurs] and won't have climbing a ladder or rope and essential part, or walking around a city. Other mods aren't so fortunate and having a centaur can cripple a party. You'd think so wouldn't you. You wouldn't for example expect a module written around interaction with a bunch of NPCs who (while considering themselves frightfully tolerant) disdain any talk with centaurs (espcially if they are male!). I like the way they give such great opportunities to benefit from the Desert Feats too.
Cardinal Teplin 03-15-07, 07:22 PM	That depends on wether that's how you choose to view those two organizational principles. In this particular situation they are only contradictory if you choose to view them as such. No, the principles are contradictory, even if resolvable in this particular case. Resolution in this case involves playing one character to exclusion of all others, in order the gain the necessary levels to participate in the plot arc, while yet defaulting to a low-level PC when required. This is possible only because the requirement happens to be to play a PC from 1st to 6th level - because the low level PC is the one that needs to be played. Consider a PC who is 7th or higher, and the conflict between the two principles becomes apparent.
Cardinal Teplin 03-15-07, 07:25 PM	You'd think so wouldn't you. You wouldn't for example expect a module written around interaction with a bunch of NPCs who (while considering themselves frightfully tolerant) disdain any talk with centaurs (espcially if they are male!). I was rewarded in a recent AR with free upkeep from the tribe that's trying to commit genocide on my own tribe. I 've got to say I was really really impressed by some of the background material for the Bright Sands Arc. It's just a shame more of it didn't get into the mods.
Hariman 03-15-07, 10:47 PM	Well, after a year of playing I'm only 7 with a 3 and 2 (the latter being due to 3-round intro mod). I don't think I'm rushing, I just like playing, enjoy my main and don't get so bored I need to try out a new concept every week. I rather dislike the low levels and couldn't stand only being able to play APL 2-4. Centaurs are only really designed for some mods. In the Brightsand mods you know the writers consider them and won't have climbing a ladder or rope and essential part, or walking around a city. Other mods aren't so fortunate and having a centaur can cripple a party. Or a spiral staircase. You can't forget those spiral staircases.
awroe 03-16-07, 04:12 AM	Or a spiral staircase. You can't forget those spiral staircases. Bit like Daleks really [/derail]
Cardinal Teplin 03-16-07, 10:25 AM	Unearthly child - Dalek going up a staircase. Classic scene :) For centaurs, how about horseshoes of the zephyr? If you're floating above the spiral stairs, can't you just treat them as a ramp of the equivalent gradient?
Redfist 03-16-07, 11:59 AM	*IF* you can play all 102 of those TUs I've already lost 20ish due to being lost, and am taking 2TUs per regional. It's also a problem because: a) My Bright Lands character isn't my primary, or my secondary, so the extra module time has been limited to events where neither of my other characters were suitable - not very often. b) I didn't know in advance that I would be required to play extra modules to play the last part, so have been playing them with my other characters c) Many of these modules have been Stormwrack-based 'Not for the water fearing' adventures - hardly a good choice for Asherati. d) There have been *a lot* of APL10-16 modules that couldn't be played with my Bright Lands character. AW. That # of 102 also included playing NOTHING else in year 5. A choice you have is to play your Asheratis in mods for the remainder of this year and schedule Dominion for near the end of the year. You may have already eaten up play opportunities with other PCs, but there are still mods to come this year. I still don't see the problem. The only "problems" here are introduced by player choice - not campaign design.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-16-07, 12:07 PM	That # of 102 also included playing NOTHING else in year 5. A choice you have is to play your Asheratis in mods for the remainder of this year and schedule Dominion for near the end of the year. You may have already eaten up play opportunities with other PCs, but there are still mods to come this year. I still don't see the problem. The only "problems" here are introduced by player choice - not campaign design. I can't speak for everyone, but on average over the course of the year I'm not really starved for play opportunities. Cores, regionals, metaregionals, and a fair share of mods from neighboring regions at cons too, and I generally burn out at least 2 characters of TU's per year, or an equivalent ammount between the characters I have...
Bold 03-16-07, 12:17 PM	I still don't see the problem. The only "problems" here are introduced by player choice - not campaign design. If you're bothered by the word "problem", perhaps you'd prefer a different description of the situation, like "unfortunate" or "not optimal". No matter how you spin it, many Bright Sands characters are lower-level. Probably 4th- or 5th-level, if they started new characters for the story arc and played some (but not the majority) of other mods in their APL range. It's unfortunate that the finale to this long story arc is APL6 minimum, and a particularly deadly APL6 at that. Had it been APL4 minimum, or a less cruelly-lethal APL6, then it would've been a better finish to the storyline. As it is, many (perhaps most?) Bright Sands characters will play this mod at APL6 or maybe APL8, and if the rumors about its difficulty are true, a disproportionate number will die. Or some will make the same choice that I did: rather than playing this mod with my Bright Sands character, I'll just do it at APL10 with a higher-level character that hasn't played any other adventures in the series. This decision was made easier since I'm running my Bright Sands character through Red Hand of Doom (a very common transition, I'm finding out, since Bright Sands characters are usually around the 5th-level point needed for RHoD), and a death now would seriously affect my ability to play that mod. Plus, I can't wait until the end of the year to level my character up once or twice more. Again, I understand why you think it's not a "problem", and I agree there are workarounds. But it's unfortunate this is the way it turned out, since any one of a few possible changes prior to this release would've avoided this situation (e.g. APL4 minimum, less-lethal APL6, or even telling players early on that they should be 7th- or 8th-level for the finale in 2007-2008).
Redfist 03-16-07, 01:27 PM	I understand your point - honestly I do. There is a different between "problem" and "unfortunate" and I get it. However, I don't remember a point where anyone advertised The Bright Sands series as a self-contained series where your character could avoid all other missions and be served well through the finale. I thought the expecatation was pretty clearly set. PCs could start new 1st level characters in the series or not. PCs could join the series part way through (ie: not bother with Blood on Bright Sands). PCs could play other mods. etc. I don't ever recall this being advertised as an 11 part series with a recommendation that you not polute the PCs play experience with other play opportunities. Some people seem to think that the series should have allowed that as a possibility. That's an opinion and therefore not "wrong", but may have been naive? *shrug* (not meant to be an insult - just a perspective, tone is hard to convey in text) As far as difficulty of the finale? Yeah - it's hard. But for a finale of a LONG series, I'd expect and even hope for it to be hard. To do so otherwise would be anti-climatic imho.
Bold 03-16-07, 01:48 PM	I don't ever recall this being advertised as an 11 part series with a recommendation that you not polute the PCs play experience with other play opportunities. I assume most people HAVE played their Bright Sands characters in at least some other mods. But I supect the majority of those Bright Sands characters are still only 4th- to 6th-level right now (that's certainly true for most of the ones I've seen), because the average player has several characters and doesn't play all or most mods with just one PC. Since there have been a number of other Core series, players typically continue those subsequent adventures with those same PCs from the early mods, rather than playing their Bright Sands character. Same for regional story lines, which are usually even more storyline-centric And some mods are simply too high-APL for new Bright Sands characters. Of the remaining one-shot Core mods of suitable APL, not all will necessarily be played with a Bright Sands character if the player has other PCs as well. Furthermore, there are certain impediments to playing Bright Sands characters in other mods: some BS-specific options (aherati, centaurs) are difficult to play in your some adventures, and it may be more difficult to justify running those PCs for role-playing reasons (the same rationale for why I play a specific character in each region I regularly travel to, with only occasional Core mods to supplement that). I dunno, maybe it's a regional thang. Maybe in your area, everyone only plays one or two characters, and thus all the Bright Sands characters in your area are 8th- to 10th-level by now. I suspect that's the exception, however. At conventions in the four states I regularly play in (and at the half-dozen conventions I've run in the last two years), most of the tables for Bright Sands adventures mustered at around APL2/4 in 2005, and APL4ish in 2006. I should issue the disclaimer that I'm not upset about the situation, and I'm certainly not complaining. I appreciate the contributions of our volunteers (including Circle members and adventure authors), and I think they've done a great job with this series. Like I said, it's unfortunate that the series ended with a finale either unplayable or unsurvivable by some of the participants, but hey--it's only a game.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-16-07, 02:06 PM	I assume most people HAVE played their Bright Sands characters in at least some other mods. But I supect the majority of those Bright Sands characters are still only 4th- to 6th-level right now (that's certainly true for most of the ones I've seen), because the average player has several characters and doesn't play all or most mods with just one PC. Since there have been a number of other Core series, players typically continue those subsequent adventures with those same PCs from the early mods, rather than playing their Bright Sands character. Same for regional story lines, which are usually even more storyline-centric And some mods are simply too high-APL for new Bright Sands characters. Of the remaining one-shot Core mods of suitable APL, not all will necessarily be played with a Bright Sands character if the player has other PCs as well. Furthermore, there are certain impediments to playing Bright Sands characters in other mods: some BS-specific options (aherati, centaurs) are difficult to play in your some adventures, and it may be more difficult to justify running those PCs for role-playing reasons (the same rationale for why I play a specific character in each region I regularly travel to, with only occasional Core mods to supplement that). I dunno, maybe it's a regional thang. Maybe in your area, everyone only plays one or two characters, and thus all the Bright Sands characters in your area are 8th- to 10th-level by now. I suspect that's the exception, however. At conventions in the four states I regularly play in (and at the half-dozen conventions I've run in the last two years), most of the tables for Bright Sands adventures mustered at around APL2/4 in 2005, and APL4ish in 2006. I should issue the disclaimer that I'm not upset about the situation, and I'm certainly not complaining. I appreciate the contributions of our volunteers (including Circle members and adventure authors), and I think they've done a great job with this series. Like I said, it's unfortunate that the series ended with a finale either unplayable or unsurvivable by some of the participants, but hey--it's only a game. ON that note the writers really are sending mixed messages my making the finale so high level (up to APL 16). Like they actually expect people to use their non-bs characters for the mod.
Redfist 03-16-07, 02:28 PM	ON that note the writers really are sending mixed messages my making the finale so high level (up to APL 16). Like they actually expect people to use their non-bs characters for the mod. Yes and no. Remember - one of the design aspects of this series is that you did NOT have to create a level 1 character for the series. If you skipped Blood and Bright sands, your "bright sands" character (in name, not in region) could be very appropriate for APL 16 in the finale.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-16-07, 02:42 PM	Yes and no. Remember - one of the design aspects of this series is that you did NOT have to create a level 1 character for the series. If you skipped Blood and Bright sands, your "bright sands" character (in name, not in region) could be very appropriate for APL 16 in the finale. True, but if the mod is truly intended for bright sands characters it should be more like APL 2-10. This would allow higher level non-bs characters to play, but would be more suited to the probable levels of the characters likely to be most heavily invested in the series.
Redfist 03-16-07, 02:53 PM	My "bright sands" PC was 12th level when I played Dominion. APL 12 or 14 woudl be reasonable. I'm sure someone else out there may have a similar story with their 14/15th level PCs who happened to be their "bright sands" PCs.
copper_wyrmling 03-16-07, 03:17 PM	Yeah. I'm trying to organize Tears and Dominion online at APL 14 at the moment. When the series started, I already had a PC who was more connected to the Bright Sands than she was to her home region - she was a member of Hardby's Order of the Throne of Wood, she'd gained the favor of Rary after thwarting an assassination attempt against his apprentice, and she'd experienced strange and fascinating dragon-related dreams while travelling through the Bright. The series seemed perfect for her, and I've been very happy that the authors have allowed for characters like her by giving many of the scenarios a high maximum APL. (Incidentally, if anyone is still looking for Tears or Dominion at APL 14, can play online, and hasn't contacted me yet, drop me a PM... ;) )
solbergb 03-16-07, 08:37 PM	aside from the first couple, all of the bright sands mods have scaled to level 16 (I say as somebody who had to prep most of them). We did the core specials with our high level characters (we are the Pale Brute Squad for Karistyne) but all the "gather the plot token" adventures were with our baby BS characters. We've played a couple of others and they are level 4, and they're staring dominion down the face. They are unfortunately far less suited from a roleplay standpoint to do most of the other low level options we have (which are regional/metaregional that our "local" characters are interested in, or are tied to the whole slave lords/Pomarj plotline that our OTHER low level characters are deeply involved in). We're hoping to muster a mixed table of 7-8s non BS characters and 4-5th BS characters. I have no idea if that will work out. RHOD is sucking away a lot of the level 5-8 characters in the campaign, leaving most that are left too high or too low to make it work.
Howie23 03-16-07, 11:00 PM	RHOD is sucking away a lot of the level 5-8 characters in the campaign, leaving most that are left too high or too low to make it work. I wonder if this isn't a major factor in tables being "well, if we must..." type tables rather than "best and brightest" tables. I know we're seeing a major shortage of iconic PCs in the APL6-8 range. David
Timlagor 03-17-07, 11:07 PM	However, I don't remember a point where anyone advertised The Bright Sands series as a self-contained series where your character could avoid all other missions and be served well through the finale. I thought the expecatation was pretty clearly set. PCs could start new 1st level characters in the series or not. PCs could join the series part way through (ie: not bother with Blood on Bright Sands). PCs could play other mods. etc. There was a definite incentive to start a new character. While there was no limit on playing other modules there are certain issues (already mentioned) with doing so. Joining the series with a higher level character runs smack into the issue of finding other people to play with since so many people wanted to start a new character for this arc. It's certainly reasonable to play other modules with them and I expdect most people have but most peolpe will not have played many other modules with their BS characters. If playing straight through without lots of outside modules wasn't an option then it should (imo) have been made clear that that was going to be the case. As far as difficulty of the finale? Yeah - it's hard. But for a finale of a LONG series, I'd expect and even hope for it to be hard. To do so otherwise would be anti-climatic imho. I don't disagree BUT that's not the point. The point is that it is (allegedly) diproportionately dangerous at APL6.
solbergb 03-17-07, 11:25 PM	maybe it's the circle's way of weeding out most of those centaurs before they become a problem for the campaign by being size large quadrupeds....
lunarfish 03-18-07, 01:09 AM	maybe it's the circle's way of weeding out most of those centaurs before they become a problem for the campaign by being size large quadrupeds.... I would not put that past the circle. In fact, it makes sense. Almost too much sense. Bastards. APL 10 was not any more challenging than a normal small table playing a core, and was certainly less challenging than a certain Dyvers regional that I'd played the weekend before, but I've not played/read the lower APLs, where it may not be as balanced. However, my experience with the mod tells me that it's just an adventure where you have to warn people to play at an appropriate APL and to bring a balanced party.
clannagh 03-20-07, 06:34 PM	HAving high level APL's available i s not an issue. In the end the real question is why didn't the mod allow for low level Bright Sands characters and start at 4.
Hariman 03-20-07, 11:40 PM	maybe it's the circle's way of weeding out most of those centaurs before they become a problem for the campaign by being size large quadrupeds.... Nah. Spiral Staircases are easier. I'm betting it's the fact that it's a FINALE. They probably wanted the final, climactic bright sands mod to be, well, climactic. It's a little harder to do that at APL 4 than APL 6.
Redfist 03-21-07, 01:12 AM	Maybe I'm naive - I like to think carefree. I take the attitude that "those in charge" carefully considered what made sense both from a campaign perspective and specifically an adventure perspective. Given the brainstorm ideas for how they wanted the adventure to run, it may not have been feasible to have it scale into lower APLs well. I'm more than happy to take it on faith that the leadership is being thoughtful in their approach to the campaign. my 2gp --Gordon
Timlagor 03-21-07, 08:34 AM	Would you like to take it on faith that there are never any illegal statblocks or listed tactics too? That all encounters have their ELs calculated properly and fairly? Many volunteers certainly work hard on our behalf but they are not infallible: mistakes happen.
Redfist 03-21-07, 11:00 AM	Choosing the APL range typically isn't a "overlooked mistake". Stat block errors often are. I'm not saying that mods shouldn't be reviewed/editted - that's crazy. However, when people don't know the CONTENT of a mod, it's really pretty hard for them to criticize whether or not it could have scaled lower or higher without changing the flavor of the mod.
TxNetWolf 08-10-07, 06:43 PM	I can't speak for the higher APLs so everything I'm about to write applies to APL6 (minimum for this Mod)... this adventure is miscalculated. Seriously. I *THRIVE* on challenging mods and (typically) find Core Specials especially fun... but this wrap-up to the Bright Sands arc was anything but. Our party of 6 PCs narrowly avoided a TPK... and that only by running out of time and calling the table!! 1 PC did die and came back a level short... of course, he's carrying around a lingering effect and now requires an NPC spellcaster to "get back to normal." We seriously believe the writer/circle are using this mod to kill off Bright Sands characters. It would have saved time to just sling the old "blue bolts from the heavens..." and just as much fun. In addition to the encounters not being appropriately gauged to the players, I found the adventure story itself... a severe let-down. This was the wrap-up to an entire story arc!! Put some effort out!! It fell seriously short compared to the other mods in the arc... and as a climax, it didn't. Someone mentioned that the writer was over compensating because it was going around that Core mods were too "easy." Well, the end product certainly seems to support this rumor... and its a shame that an entire story arc was sacrificed in an attempt to "put teeth back" into Core mods. We all know DMs/Mods can kill characters if they want to... I challenge the writer to try entertaining players. 'Dominion Over Bright Sands' certainly didn't. Joe Wolf Houston, TX A Master-Level DM in the RPGA and D&D veteran of 28 years. He played B2 'Keep on the Borderlands' in 1979 and every iteration of D&D since then!
Franco Un-American 08-10-07, 07:09 PM	Yeah, this mod was killer. We managed to beat it with a fairly (OK, very) underwhelming party only because my cleric was playing down massively. I basically had to buff my butt off and solo blast one encounter (and I was not a combat cleric), and we only lost one level 2 character that everyone expected to die anyway. I really don't know how a party of appropriately leveled characters were supposed to go through this.
Redfist 08-10-07, 07:37 PM	My party was appropriately levelled and did fine. Luckily, we had a set of arcane casters with access to some nice cheesy NONC spells. :)
TxNetWolf 08-10-07, 08:43 PM	I'm glad not all of us were victims of this P.O.S.... you know, a mod shouldn't require a PC or two to play down and take the XP/GP hickey, or assume you have a "cheesy, NONC spell" selection. ;) Moreover, it should tell a story. And if its the wrap-up of a 2-year story arc, it should tell that story WELL. The reviewers should have had the morningstars to tell the writer "this doesn't past the smell test," because 'Dominion Over Bright Sands' stunk. Joe Wolf Houston, TX
control freak 08-10-07, 08:53 PM	APL 8 and up its not bad, you NEEED 4th level spells period if you want to beat this mod, end of story if you have a 7th playing down your fine if not deep trouble
Hariman 08-10-07, 09:09 PM	If at all possible, don't play it at APL 6 unless you have a STRONG party. The Druid/Beastmaster with his brown bear animal companion put out much of the damage. And the favored soul was dropping EMPOWERED Insignias of Healing in more combats. We had TWO deaths in the "Killer Encounter" (Which is easily an EL 11 encounter in an APL 6 mod. Possibly a low EL 12 encounter.) And get this: The "+3 beastmaster cheese o matic animal companion" DID get killed. So, like I said, don't play it at APL 6. Not unless your party is almost APL 8, and has some DAMN good players.
control freak 08-10-07, 09:29 PM	our DM rolled so many 1s in the killer encounter and we ALMOST DIED! he rolled a 1 on a fort save for massive damage and thats the only reason we didnt die (we were barely able to play up to it):rolleyes:
Hariman 08-10-07, 09:44 PM	our DM rolled so many 1s in the killer encounter and we ALMOST DIED! he rolled a 1 on a fort save for massive damage and thats the only reason we didnt die (we were barely able to play up to it):rolleyes: You are so lucky. (PM me if you want to discuss Dominion encounters.) Dominion at APL 6 with a level 5 Wizard is not advisable.
control freak 08-11-07, 12:10 PM	yah our party had a 3 playing up and 2 level 4s and we barely made ith throu (the DM couldnt roll at all that day)
clannagh 08-12-07, 10:24 PM	yah our party had a 3 playing up and 2 level 4s and we barely made ith throu (the DM couldnt roll at all that day) We had 3 deaths in a party of 5 at APL6. Basically we had three "dedicated" Bright Sands arc characters that all died without any hope of avoiding death no matter what tehy could have tried ... my own Bright Sands Dwarf survived OK (he had played other games and was just short of level 8) and a non Bright Sands character playing down brought in to babysit the level 4's and 5's did reasonable Ok so we were able to recover the bodies. Its impossible to discuss any specifics, being a current mod, without giving away huge spoilers .. but in general terms it seemed like certian unspecified Bright Sands environmental factors (which have been totally ignored for the whole arc and hence no-one has prepared for) suddenly played a big role but were not factored in the EL at all (presumably because you already "know" about them)..
Hariman 08-12-07, 11:02 PM	We had 3 deaths in a party of 5 at APL6. Basically we had three "dedicated" Bright Sands arc characters that all died without any hope of avoiding death no matter what tehy could have tried ... my own Bright Sands Dwarf survived OK (he had played other games and was just short of level 8) and a non Bright Sands character playing down brought in to babysit the level 4's and 5's did reasonable Ok so we were able to recover the bodies. Its impossible to discuss any specifics, being a current mod, without giving away huge spoilers .. but in general terms it seemed like certian unspecified Bright Sands environmental factors (which have been totally ignored for the whole arc and hence no-one has prepared for) suddenly played a big role but were not factored in the EL at all (presumably because you already "know" about them).. You could PM me or Control Freak. We both played it. And I know exactly what you mean. There were other things in the mod that were pretty... troublesome as well.