Post/Author/DateTime	Post
echoota 07-24-07, 11:38 AM	Ah well, from how it sounded before I thought this would be a great way of quickly getting a character up in levels, but now it seems that you really are going to have to slog through 64+ hours worth of real world time to get to the same place you'd be if played any other LG game. I was hoping that this would be a way for new players to get quickly caught up in a group of existing players, just play four mods and poof! you're 5th level and suddenly a lot of options are open for joining the local pool of LG tables. I guess back to Xen'drik again...
_metz_ 07-24-07, 11:47 AM	Ah well, from how it sounded before I thought this would be a great way of quickly getting a character up in levels, but now it seems that you really are going to have to slog through 64+ hours worth of real world time to get to the same place you'd be if played any other LG game. I was hoping that this would be a way for new players to get quickly caught up in a group of existing players, just play four mods and poof! you're 5th level and suddenly a lot of options are open for joining the local pool of LG tables. I guess back to Xen'drik again... Yes lets have level bumps and no sense of achievement! Yay Xen'drik. Its not about accelerating characters quickly, most people WANT to play more mods. Its a good thing. thats why we play, not just to see our numbers go up...
TetsujinOni 07-24-07, 12:03 PM	Ah well, from how it sounded before I thought this would be a great way of quickly getting a character up in levels, but now it seems that you really are going to have to slog through 64+ hours worth of real world time to get to the same place you'd be if played any other LG game. I was hoping that this would be a way for new players to get quickly caught up in a group of existing players, just play four mods and poof! you're 5th level and suddenly a lot of options are open for joining the local pool of LG tables. I guess back to Xen'drik again... If you're able to play adaptables, assuming you don't screw up missions, and can find a party to power level with: 2 rounds of intro adventures for your region. 2 TU, 3-8 hours (900) Scourge of the Howling Horde. 5TU, 5-8 hours (2k total) Barrow of the Forgotten King: 11TU, 10 hours (5.7k total) Any APL4: 675. 1-2TU (32 left), 4 hours (6.3k total) Fane of the Drow: 7tu, (25 left), 4-6 hours (8.7k). So, 36 hours to level 4, 44 to level 5. Or stay over in Xen'drik. Not my cup o java.
echoota 07-24-07, 12:08 PM	It's not seeing the numbers go up, it's about having friends being able to play with friends. I know a lot of you out there are doing the whole con circuit with LG, but everyone I know play in a home or at best a retail game enviroment, with perhaps a local con annually. When you make friends with someone new, or an old friend comes into town or even moves into town, LG becomes a big pain to try and incorperate them into the existing group. All the vets end up being 6+ in level and the new guy is stuck with 1st level. The group has no desire to go back to 1st level again and so the goal of inclusivity fails. There ought to be a way, via fastplays or other manner, to have your old buddy be able to come into town for the weekend and you say, "hey, I've got my LG session this week, it's a lot of fun with a great bunch of guys!" and have the old buddy be able to jump in the game legally. There are countless instances I've seen over the last two years now where due to LG's rigid advancement system you can't get a group of people together. There ought to be a better way of accomodating that.
bitznarf 07-24-07, 12:12 PM	All the vets end up being 6+ in level and the new guy is stuck with 1st level. The group has no desire to go back to 1st level again and so the goal of inclusivity fails. To be honest, I've yet to see a problem like that where I live. The 'vets' as you call them have PCs of multiple levels.
KarmaInferno 07-24-07, 12:14 PM	Irony. Most of the longtime LGers I know hate the quick advancement speed of the D&D Campaigns. Less time for character development. Myself I mostly hate the auto-advancement. No sense of ownership to the character, or any feeling of earning the abilities you get. It's not that much different than playing a 'classic' event, where you're handed a pre-made character and throw it away after the event. Only with a bit more customization, perhaps. -karma
Demoyn 07-24-07, 12:26 PM	I see both sides of this story (I've been playing since year 1, but never got a character higher than APL 6 due to various reasons). I'd really appreciate being able to play in some of these APL 10+ mods with my friends, but I'm stuck down here at level 5 (and 4, and 2, and 2, and 1). I'm working my way up, and I don't want to just be handed a level 14 character (I do enjoy feeling the accomplishment), but I'd like to be able to play with my higher level friends without feeling like I'm costing them good stuff on their mains. Also, after taking a hiatus from LG, I've discovered that there's the huge issue of new players not being able to play as many games as higher level players (mostly due to minimum levels and TU constraints). I'd really love to be able to get some of these year 6 IUZ mods under my belt (especially the ones that are beginnings of chain quests), but I'm out of TUs on the only character high enough to play any of them.
Umbra_Kaitou 07-24-07, 12:27 PM	To be honest, I've yet to see a problem like that where I live. The 'vets' as you call them have PCs of multiple levels. It does happen, its happen to my group. WE first gathered a group 2 years ago, and most weeks attendance was pretty steady, so barring the fact that cons off set u s, we still averaged at like level 5. Then one dropped out for personal reasons, so we had 4 5's and trying to bring in another at 1 just didn't work. However, the group fell apart after awhile, and last year we tried to reform it with incoming freshmen etc, which those couple of us that held over rerolled a low level to try and work them up. Well, this group wasn't as steady and numerous times we lost a player and had to play catch up. I have a number of low level characters (1-3) cause of this, nad my highest is only at 6 because of it. Now i love running mods, and don't mind having to earn things the hard way, but it does rather suck trying to fill a gap when someone leaves a higher level group.
Demoyn 07-24-07, 12:29 PM	Another thing, as hinted by the previous poster, is that areas with lower RPGA population have this issue much more often than the larger cities. In order to get where I'm at now, I had to drive 150 miles to Houston every few weeks just to play, since the city I live in now really sucks for D&D in general. Apparently small cities have a high population of people that can only read things if they're on chewing tobacco cans.
Mattastrophic 07-24-07, 12:39 PM	Whoaaa now... Being from a position of having multiple higher-level characters, people with low-levels only have zero to complain about. We've just lost APL 16, which means that 10-16 modules are probably going to drop to 8-14 or 6-14, AND due to the friggin' APL+4 rule we're not allowed to play down very far. People with higher-level PCs have only been losing play opportunities. So if we seem non-accomodating because we try to play the APL 14 modules at APL 14, it's because we don't get very many chances to play our APL 14 guys. We also tend to have stables of various levels due to things like APL 2-8, so don't worry, we can play with lower-level PCs. -Matt
UMiskatonic 07-24-07, 02:15 PM	You have my sympathies. In more densely populated areas, finding a group of gamers at your level is like throwing a rock and trying to hit the...ground. If your fellow players were more sympathetic, they could make lower level guys. Another idea is the 'ringer'. Create an APL 4 table by mixing 2s and 6s. If you rotate the 6th level spot among the players, you'll get the low level guy caught up pretty fast, since he's always playing up. But if they don't want to help, you can't make them. Perhaps you can talk up how AWESOME Greyhawk Ruins is going to be, you'll want a first level guy for that.
opa 07-24-07, 03:25 PM	Don't see why it matters because everyone is going to start a new 1st level character for Greyhawk Ruins story arc...
Demoyn 07-24-07, 03:41 PM	So if we seem non-accomodating because we try to play the APL 14 modules at APL 14, it's because we don't get very many chances to play our APL 14 guys. We also tend to have stables of various levels due to things like APL 2-8, so don't worry, we can play with lower-level PCs. -Matt Nobody's saying that we're upset you want to play your high level character. We're upset that it takes forever to be able to play OUR high level character WITH you. Our complaint isn't even directed at the way the RPGA rules are set up so much as the population issues of many cities. Having games that allow us to catch up quicker than normal would only help with that. It's not a perfect solution, but it's a possible one... especially for newer RPGA members. I myself have played in all of the games listed above (Fane of the Drow, Barrow of the Forgotten King, ect). I've had one death, and I'm level 5 and out of TUs. My fiance that played with me and has never died JUST turned 6 last weekend, and is out of TUs. Our friends that were level 3 when we started are now level 8 and 9, and mostly out of the realm of compatibility, and all of their other characters are 2 and 3; making it difficult to find a good table. We occasionally play some APL 4 together, but it's costing us XP to do that. Keep in mind that this is INCLUDING the games that we have to drive 150 miles for. I'm not even going to talk about the games we have yet to have in this little city, where we're level 6 and everyone else is still level 1. Yes, my examples are a little weak, since it's manageable to still play with our friends (albeit not optimal). My examples, though, are MY examples. There are MUCH worse out there.
Shaudius 07-24-07, 04:00 PM	The problem is that he(and others) had to spend lots and lots of time getting to that level. By having an option where one could level quicker it dilutes the sense of accomplishment for that player that spent all that time getting to that level. The one benefit it does have is that Greyhawk mods are 1 TU. That means way more regional mods than normal for you. 16 TUs of Greyhawk Ruins, lots of TUs of expidition and then all the mods set in the DoG. So if you have enough real world time you can still out pace someone with just normal stuff.
Mithreinmaethor 07-24-07, 05:31 PM	As Opa above has stated this whole post by the original poster is a moot point. Since everyone going to play in the Greyhawk Ruins arc has to make new characters. I am in an area where the local LG population is not all that large. But when I came into the picture there were a lot of new characters made to accommodate me even though they all had 8th thru 12th level characters. So unless the players in the original posters group are just arses and are unwilling to accommodate new players to the group.
Mattastrophic 07-24-07, 06:38 PM	We're upset that it takes forever to be able to play OUR high level character WITH you. And the reason it takes forever is, well... Time Units. You're not going to be able to come straight out of the gate and play APL 14 in your first year. It's apparently one of the defining aspects of Living Greyhawk. -Matt
Demoyn 07-24-07, 06:56 PM	Yeah... that's just the issue though. Time units are great for people that have been playing for a while. I like the realism that they add also. The issue is that people who are new to LG can't catch up because of the TUs. Keep in mind that to someone who's been playing LG for a while, 52 TUs are enough to keep up with the modules with but perhaps one secondary character. Those who are new have TWO years worth of mods to play, so they end up with 4 or 5 level 5-6 characters. What we're talking about here isn't something that's going to cause LG to crumble. It's not something that's going to upset the general populace, but it IS something that costs us new players on a regular basis. I myself started playing in 2001. I was reluctant to start playing LG because, back then, LG cost money per module, and I didn't feel that I should have to pay money to play a game that was free without the RPGA. My friends all played LG on the side, and our home campaign kept getting trainwrecked because I lived in a college town and every year people came and went. Unfortunately, by the time I started playing, all of my friends were level 4 and 5. This is back when no adventure would EVER give more than 500 xp per mod and the highest level players in the entire organization were around level 7. I ended up quitting because my level 3 character could only stay alive in their APL 6 games if I cowered in the back, and that was no fun for me. These days I've returned because I live in a city that doesn't seem to have enough players to even ATTEMPT a home campaign. I like most of the revisions that have been made in my absence. It makes it much easier to at least attempt to catch my friends in level (back in year 1, a thrown-together party was almost sure death). Nobody's saying that the system is broken, or that anyone wants a handout. All anyone has said is that it would be nice if the RPGA had some way to balance out new players and players in poor population areas with those that live in bustling metropolises. In fact, the RPGA has reduced the strain of population with their loosening of the online gaming rules, so they obviously see that there's a problem.
clannagh 07-24-07, 08:57 PM	Currently I have three characters above 6 and they all have no TU. (my playable characters are 2's and 5's) so locally i am more than happy to play APL2 or 4 with any newbies. I would point out that the recent trend towards mods being released as either APL2-8 OR APL10-14 will probably result in a lot more low to mid level characters getting played as people will not want to missout on the low APL mods.