Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sirellyn 01-11-06, 05:39 AM	I haven't been able to find this elsewhere so I'll ask here. Are there any restrictions or errata with divine metamagic? So far as I understand it works as the following: - Have the actual metamagic feat already. - Blow 1 turning attempt plus the amount of levels the spell would be increased with more turning attempts. - Cast the enhanced spell at no extra loss. I've always been a bit wary of this feat considering that it's a means to cast spells that would normally be levels higher than your could cast and just lose turning attempts. So it works just as stated for living greyhawk? I guess I'm just surprised to find it as a core feat in LG.
smerwin29 01-11-06, 07:25 AM	You are spot on with everything you say. The feat is very powerful, and the only thing that keeps it in check is limited number of turning attempts a cleric gets per day. Unfortunately, the introduction of nightsticks from Libris Mortis into the campaign has essentially made it standard procedure for some clerics to be able to cast nearly every spell maximized, enlarged, extended, chained, and/or empowered--or whatever else they want. Shawn
Sieylianna 01-11-06, 07:29 AM	I haven't been able to find this elsewhere so I'll ask here. Are there any restrictions or errata with divine metamagic? So far as I understand it works as the following: - Have the actual metamagic feat already. - Blow 1 turning attempt plus the amount of levels the spell would be increased with more turning attempts. - Cast the enhanced spell at no extra loss. I've always been a bit wary of this feat considering that it's a means to cast spells that would normally be levels higher than your could cast and just lose turning attempts. So it works just as stated for living greyhawk? I guess I'm just surprised to find it as a core feat in LG. That is how it works in LG. Personally, I expect a ruling at some point that you must be able to cast spells of the level the spell would be with the metamagic feat applied in order to do so, but it hasn't happened yet. I suspect more clerics are manipulating caster level to enhance holy word and other spells than are using divine metamagic, which is why it's not a problem. The absence of the persistent feat in LG also cuts down on the abuse of divine metamagic. Ed
Arvagor 01-11-06, 09:39 AM	That is how it works in LG. Personally, I expect a ruling at some point that you must be able to cast spells of the level the spell would be with the metamagic feat applied in order to do so, but it hasn't happened yet.Doubtful, since the FAQ has already "ruled" that the feat does, in fact, work exactly as described (the only change, of course, being the Complete Divine errata that states you must already possess the metamagic feat that is being powered by Divine Metamagic). I would tend to agree with Shawn, that the limits on the # of turning attempts a cleric can make in a day is what keeps this in check; and in some ways, this is no different than somebody possessing the 'Practiced Spellcaster' feat. Divine Metamagic [Divine] Prerequisites: Ability to turn or rebuke undead You can channel energy into some of your dvivine spells to make them more powerful. Benefit: When you take this feat, choose a metamagic feat that you have. This feat applies only to that metamagic feat. As a free action, you can take the energy from the turning or rebuking attempt and use it to apply a metamagic feat to divine spells that you know. You must spend one turn or rebuke attempt, plus an additional attempt for each level increase in the metamagic feat you're using. Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time you take this feat choose a different metamagic feat to apply it to. As best I can figure, @ 15th level the most turn attempts a PC could have in a day would be around 36 -- Human Clr 15, Wis27 (18 @ lvl1, +3 stat bumps, +6 Cloak of Charisma), taking nothing but Extra Turning for his feats (7 times)*. Each time you take Divine Metamagic, that means you've effectively used up two feats (one for DM, and one for the feat it powers, e.g. Empower), so throw out 8 of the turning attempts (because you've removed 2 Extra Turnings from the feat mix). The rules for using turn attempts (only 1/round) also prevent a PC from casting a spell with multiple Divine Metamagic feats applied * I will admit that I have no idea what RSoP does to this assessment ;)
Sirellyn 01-11-06, 01:16 PM	Ok. If LG plays it by the books as core then of course it will be played. Just wanted to make sure. :-) I'm personally of the opinion that practised spellcaster is a fine feat. (Doesn't let you do anything you technically couldn't do at your current character level.) Divine metamagic on the other hand is different. You can have a cleric quicken casting spells at first level. And considering sudden quicken is limited, does anyone know any arcane magic casters (who devote so much of their life to magic that they can't wear armor or even fight well.) being able to do anything like this? Seems cheesy to me.. But! I'm not the triad. :-) Thanks for the info!
Arvagor 01-11-06, 02:00 PM	Divine metamagic on the other hand is different. You can have a cleric quicken casting spells at first level. And considering sudden quicken is limited, does anyone know any arcane magic casters (who devote so much of their life to magic that they can't wear armor or even fight well.) being able to do anything like this? Seems cheesy to me..Technically, no you can't -- at least not in LG, because the campaign doesn't permit you to take Divine Metamagic at 1st level (you have to wait until at least 3rd). Even if you could, would you want to burn up 5 turn attempts just to Quicken one spell/day?
Sirellyn 01-11-06, 02:38 PM	Ok thats true. Not at first level. At 3rd rather. As for who would want to burn 5 turning attempts for a quickened spell? Lots of people. Specially those people who don't expect to see undead in an encounter. And of course, even if you do meet up with undead. Turning is hardly a clerics only defense against them. Turning also becomes less useful as you go up in levels. (Monster HD skyrocket compared to player levels.) So what do you use all those turning attempts for later..? Another think I forgot about divine metamagic. You can quicken 6th level spells, making them effectively 10th level spells. This of course brings it to epic levels.. I'd say thats pretty darn powerful. Someone was saying how you couldn't use 2 metamagic feats on a spell with turning attempts. I'm just curious how thats figured out.. Even assuming so, you can cast a prepared maximized version of a spell, and then use DivMeta to quicken it as well. Pelor help any one who faces someone with a sudden feat, and/or a metamagic rod. If there was anything that gave a higher level rating than quicken that would be worse. It's a good thing persistant spell is barred and innate spell is not considered metamagic anymore..
Sirellyn 01-11-06, 02:43 PM	Er wait.. One more thing.. Does this mean you can heighten a hold person spell to like 15th level or something (assuming you had enough turning feats) Or by that time do a slay living that is 15th level I suppose.. You could make a spell with a rediculous save DC...
Arvagor 01-11-06, 04:23 PM	Er wait.. One more thing.. Does this mean you can heighten a hold person spell to like 15th level or something (assuming you had enough turning feats) Or by that time do a slay living that is 15th level I suppose.. You could make a spell with a rediculous save DC... I don't know what they rules are for applying a metamagic feat when the effective level of the spell, or the spell slot it would require, would be past 9th level... "Heighten Spell...A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level)." So you could Heighten hold person from being a 2nd level spell to 9th; to do so with Divine Metamagic would require an expenditure of 8 turning attempts. To heighten slay living (a 5th level spell) to 9th would require 5 turn attempts)
Arvagor 01-11-06, 05:04 PM	Someone was saying how you couldn't use 2 metamagic feats on a spell with turning attempts. I'm just curious how thats figured out.. Even assuming so, you can cast a prepared maximized version of a spell, and then use DivMeta to quicken it as well.I didn't say that; I said you couldn't use Divine Metamagic twice on the same spell. This is because of the rules for using [Divine] feats in Complete Divine: Regardless, you may activate only one divine feat (or use the ability to turn or rebuke undead once) per round, though overlapping durations may allow you the benefits of more than one divine feat at a time.In a nutshell, if it uses a turn undead attempt, you can't do anything else that uses a turn undead attempt in the same round. Another think I forgot about divine metamagic. You can quicken 6th level spells, making them effectively 10th level spells. This of course brings it to epic levels.. I'd say thats pretty darn powerful.I can't find a source at the moment, but I thought the rules for any use of metamagic were, if the caster did not have a slot available that the resulting metamagic spell would occupy (your theoretical 10th level slot for a quickened 6th level), then that particular metamagic feat could not be used on the spell. (Search for "spell slot" in the 3.0 FAQ, and you'll see a lot of examples that show this to be the case). Based on the 3.5 FAQ, Divine Metamagic seems to be permitted to break that rule, although I see nothing that says "regular" metamagic feats are allowed to do so...
Sirellyn 01-11-06, 08:04 PM	I didn't say that; I said you couldn't use Divine Metamagic twice on the same spell. This is because of the rules for using [Divine] feats in Complete Divine: In a nutshell, if it uses a turn undead attempt, you can't do anything else that uses a turn undead attempt in the same round. Thats perfect. I didn't want to sound like I didn't believe you, I just wanted to source for that. Thanks :-) I can't find a source at the moment, but I thought the rules for any use of metamagic were, if the caster did not have a slot available that the resulting metamagic spell would occupy (your theoretical 10th level slot for a quickened 6th level), then that particular metamagic feat could not be used on the spell. (Search for "spell slot" in the 3.0 FAQ, and you'll see a lot of examples that show this to be the case). Based on the 3.5 FAQ, Divine Metamagic seems to be permitted to break that rule, although I see nothing that says "regular" metamagic feats are allowed to do so... Hmm.. It would be helpful to get that decision too if it can be found anywhere in 3.5. I would just like to be able to make a proper ruling when it comes up. If you can actually find an official source that says metamagic (no matter what) can only be cast if you had that spell slot free. (Or even at least if you were able to cast that level of spell yourself.) I think that would bring divine metamagic down to proper levels. Powerful, but not gamebreaking and sick. Thanks again for feedback.
Sieylianna 01-11-06, 10:11 PM	I can't find a source at the moment, but I thought the rules for any use of metamagic were, if the caster did not have a slot available that the resulting metamagic spell would occupy (your theoretical 10th level slot for a quickened 6th level), then that particular metamagic feat could not be used on the spell. (Search for "spell slot" in the 3.0 FAQ, and you'll see a lot of examples that show this to be the case). Based on the 3.5 FAQ, Divine Metamagic seems to be permitted to break that rule, although I see nothing that says "regular" metamagic feats are allowed to do so... This is exactly what I was talking about in terms of expecting a ruling. I've seen a PC with a bunch of the night sticks (radiant servant of pelor as well), and in the high 20's for turn attempts per day. Ed
Mortepierre 01-12-06, 01:00 PM	From the D&D 3.5 FAQ: Can a cleric with Divine Metamagic feat apply a metamagic effect to a spell whose level would ordinarily be too high to gain the metamagic effect from his metamagic feat? Yes—applying a metamagic effect in this manner has no effect on the spell’s level. For example, a 9th-level cleric with Divine Metamagic (Empower Spell) could spend four turn/rebuke undead attempts to empower a flame strike spell, even though empowered flame strike would normally require an 8th-level spell slot to cast. From the SRD: Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up. Wizards and Divine Spellcasters: Wizards and divine spellcasters must prepare their spells in advance. During preparation, the character chooses which spells to prepare with metamagic feats (and thus which ones take up higher-level spell slots than normal). Seems pretty obvious to me, given the last sentence, that you have to devote a spell slot to the (metamagic-enhanced) spell. Thus, if you don't have any free spell slot of the appropriate level, no spell (except if you're using Divine Metamagic, that is)
Arvagor 01-12-06, 02:02 PM	Seems pretty obvious to me, given the last sentence, that you have to devote a spell slot to the (metamagic-enhanced) spell. Thus, if you don't have any free spell slot, no spell.But you've just ignored the FAQ entry you posted, because it quite clearly states that a 9th level cleric can cast the flame strike with Divine Metamagic (Empower) applied to it, with no increase in the spell level (i.e., it remains a normal old flame strike, and is memorized that way, taking up a 5th level slot). Divine Metamagic (IMO) is much more akin to the various 'Sudden' metamagic feats in this regard, but with no real limit on how many times the metamagic can be used (barring the user running out of turn attempts). As Ed points out, all a cleric with Divine Metamagic needs to do is load up on night sticks (a magic item from Libris Mortis, that grants (I believe) 4 extra turning attempts each day), and he could pretty much use Divine Metamagic on just about any spell he decides to cast that day. One could say that access to such an item may limit abuse, but that depends on what kind of access is granted (i.e., 'Adventure' access limits abuse more than 'Any', etc.)
Azerin 01-12-06, 02:23 PM	Yes with nightsticks its very not fair, espically at higher levels, but I wondered about Diving Metamagic and Spell-Storing items. Can a cleric divine metamagic a spell that they cast into, or out of a ring? for example, can a cleric cast a divinely maxamized searing light into a spell storing weapon; or can a cleric use divine maximize on a fireball that a wizard had cast into the ring before giving it the cleric. I'm not sure how the text on spell storing reads, i'm sure one of those two is possible but I'm not sure which. -Azerin
smerwin29 01-12-06, 02:53 PM	Can a cleric divine metamagic a spell that they cast into, or out of a ring? for example, can a cleric cast a divinely maxamized searing light into a spell storing weapon Interestingly enough, I think the answer is yes he could, but it would not work. If you look at the spell storing enhancement, you will see that is says you can only use targeted spells. Searing light is a ray effect, and not a targeted spell, so it cannot be used (and the same is true with other ray spells). But as far as the question of whether you could use Divine Metamagic to affect as spell going into the spell storing weapon, the answer is absolutely. Shawn
Sirellyn 01-12-06, 03:26 PM	I really hope they do a better errata for this in LG or ban this feat. Has anyone talked to a triad member about this?
Arvagor 01-12-06, 03:41 PM	Interestingly enough, I think the answer is yes he could, but it would not work. If you look at the spell storing enhancement, you will see that is says you can only use targeted spells. Searing light is a ray effect, and not a targeted spell, so it cannot be used (and the same is true with other ray spells). But as far as the question of whether you could use Divine Metamagic to affect as spell going into the spell storing weapon, the answer is absolutely. I myself am not so sure, and lean towards 'no' to the original post (but see my explanation)... In the first case, it's because, as Shawn points out, searing light is not a targeted spell, which is one of the requirements for casting a spell into a spell storing weapon. In the second case, it's also 'no', for several reasons: 1) the cleric did not cast fireball (ring requirement); 2) fireball is not a divine spell (Divine Metamagic requirement) OTOH, if you had swapped things around (searing light in the ring, for example), then it gets a little murkier. You still have to obey the ring's level limits (3 for minor, 5 for "normal", and 10 for major). Rings of spell storing also have this additional rule: "Metamagic versions of spells take up storage space equal to their spell level modified by the metamagic feat." Regardless of whether a spell is a Divine Maximized searing light or a "regular" Maximized searing light, by the rules of the ring, it is, IMO, a Maximized searing light, which would "normally" take up a 6th-level spell slot, which means you would have to have no less than a major ring of spell storing in this regard.
Mortepierre 01-12-06, 04:08 PM	But you've just ignored the FAQ entry you posted, because it quite clearly states that a 9th level cleric can cast the flame strike with Divine Metamagic (Empower) applied to it, with no increase in the spell level (i.e., it remains a normal old flame strike, and is memorized that way, taking up a 5th level slot). Methink you quoted me while I was just adding the (except if you're using Divine Metamagic, that is) part of my last sentence. Weird, I last edited that post at 7:55 and your own post was made 7 minutes later.. :confused:
Arvagor 01-12-06, 04:25 PM	Well then, we're agreeing with each other, aren't we? :thinks: Weird, I last edited that post at 7:55 and your own post was made 7 minutes later.. To me it says you edited it at 1:55 (and your post just above this one wasn't there when I started this post)... Regardless, I started responding to it at 1:00 my time, and thought you were emphasizing the SRD statement about metamagic, not the FAQs... So here's to agreeing (somewhat): :pint:
Starfox_SFX 01-12-06, 05:45 PM	lv1 char18, quicken spell, extra turning (total turn attempts = 10) Lv3 Divine metamagic: quicken By 3rd level you have two quickened spells a day, not bad. Especially considering that a wizard has to take 5 or 6 prerequisites before they qualify for the sudden quicken once per day, and sudden feats are limited feats to begin with. An NPC in a mod I've played has already beat me to the ultimate goal: Harm divine quicken flamestrike, or Harm (opponent makes save) divine quicken harm. Even better, choose your domains well and Flamestrike divine quicken cone of cold, or Flamestrike, divine quicken chain lightning. There is also slay living divine quicken slay living. You can up your damage with maximizes or empowers at will instead of quicken. You can build a summoning cleric around rapid spell. Lots of good ideas when you get rid of the additional level restrictions of the metamagic feats. IMHO FWIW Divine metamagic is overpowered, but while its around you might as well use it to its fullest.
JamesMaissen 01-12-06, 10:09 PM	Interestingly enough, I think the answer is yes he could, but it would not work. If you look at the spell storing enhancement, you will see that is says you can only use targeted spells. Searing light is a ray effect, and not a targeted spell, so it cannot be used (and the same is true with other ray spells). But as far as the question of whether you could use Divine Metamagic to affect as spell going into the spell storing weapon, the answer is absolutely. Shawn I would think the ruling for sudden feats would also apply here. It would be considered the level that it should be with the appropriate level bump. That is an empowered cure light wounds would be a 3rd level spell even if it only took a 1st level cure light with divine metamagic (or sudden empower) to get it stored (or scribed, etc). -James
Mortepierre 01-13-06, 02:56 AM	Frankly, I fail to see what is the problem. Yes, a 16th-lvl clerics with the Cha of Apollo and no feat but 1 metamagic, divine metamagic and a lot of extra-turning will be very powerful. That said, let's consider the trade-off. - a decent Wis score + Cha 18 from the start means really low stats everywhere else - no other feat (which means no combat casting, skill focus (heal), or even augment summoning) - no access to a lot of PrC with feat(s) prerequisite Moreover, if he takes Maximize or Quicken as his ONE AND ONLY metamagic feat, he'll have to blow between 3 and 4 turning attempts every time. At low level, he'll be able to pull that trick only thrice at best. At high level, a lot more but then again he'll have a lot of spells to choose from and only a few will be able to be "enhanced" that way (though I'll grant you he'll probably go for the most powerful of the lot). Nightstick? Not an issue. It's not "core", so you can only gain access to it through an AR or a meta-org. I've run my fair share of adventures and I can think of only two that offered stuff from LM, nightstick not included. Now, I am only familiar with COR and (meta-)regional adventures so, of course, if your (meta-)region and/or meta-org offer them on a daily basis, that's a local issue you'll have to solve. But just because someone blew a fuse in his little corner of the Flanaess doesn't mean all regions have to suffer for it. With the CD's errata, Divine Metamagic became balanced. Without the errata it wouldn't be but we have that errata, don't we? The only thing I would like to see is an official statement that you can't use Divine Metamagic to boost a spell so much that it would (normally) take a spell slot higher than lvl 9 (given LG doesn't use the epic rules). Beyond that, it works as intended.
Azerin 01-13-06, 05:15 AM	as a clairification, I believe divine meta is balanced... just not fair, considering I've seen 3 certs with nightstick access these days. And quicken, while standard isn't the only benefit of divine metamagic... I've seen divinely chained spells, and an arcane caster with sacred exorcist, for the sole purpose of divinely sculpting spells. Speaking of sculpt... divinely sculpted blade barriers and holy words are just unfair, even if the holy words have a crap range... but that's balanced by knowing if you cast them, you are nearly out of the campaign anyway. I believe a divinely metamagic'd spell works more like a sudden feat, or a rod, in that you are using something to add a "virtual feat" to a spell. It says "the spell's slot doesn't change", which i'm assuming means a 3rd level divinely maximized CSW would fit into a spell storing weapon. Ok lastly, my example would work with cause serious wounds (sorry i forgot about searing light not working with spell storing weapons). Now, if that's the case, a cleric could in theory cast a divinely maximized & empowered via a rod of lesser empower, CSW into a spell storing weapon, as the modifications are made when the spell is cast, and neither increases actual spell slot level. given it would only be caster level 5, but they should stack, as far as I know. Ok, thats my cheese for the night, -Azerin
Madfox11 01-13-06, 05:22 AM	I really hope they do a better errata for this in LG or ban this feat. Has anyone talked to a triad member about this? Don't worry ;) Circle and Triad members read these boards as well, and even if they were not, they are fully aware of the potential problems of these feats.
Gelth 01-13-06, 12:01 PM	Nightsticks. Caveat: I don't have Libris Mortis here, and I haven't looked at Nightsticks closely. From what I'm hearing, Nightsticks give a +4 to your turn attempts for the day. Bonuses from similar sources don't stack unless otherwise documented. Multiple nightsticks shouldn't stack. Can anyone refute that, preferably with the test of Nightstick? --Penn, Ket Triad
smerwin29 01-13-06, 12:11 PM	Deleted double post . . .
smerwin29 01-13-06, 12:11 PM	Nightsticks. Caveat: I don't have Libris Mortis here, and I haven't looked at Nightsticks closely. From what I'm hearing, Nightsticks give a +4 to your turn attempts for the day. Bonuses from similar sources don't stack unless otherwise documented. Multiple nightsticks shouldn't stack. Can anyone refute that, preferably with the test of Nightstick? --Penn, Ket Triad BONUSES do not stack. This is not a bonus. A PC simply gains "four more uses of the ability per day." I'd like your interpretation to be the case, but I don't think the rules support it. Shawn
Arvagor 01-13-06, 12:25 PM	I'm inclined to agree with Shawn; it's not called a "bonus", and bonus is an explicitly-defined game term: A positive modifier to a die roll. In most cases, multiple bonuses from the same source or of the same type in effect on the same character or object do not stack; only the highest bonus of that type applies. Bonuses that don't have a specific type always stack with all bonuses.Since the "+4" the nightstick grants doesn't apply to a die roll (as Shawn pointed out, it's not even phrased as "+4"), I don't think there's anything that really limits how many of them you can benefit from.
Azerin 01-13-06, 02:25 PM	the actual text is: "Anyone who posesses the rod and can turn or rebuke undead gains four more uses of the ability per day". -Azerin
Mommy was an Orc 01-13-06, 02:36 PM	Unfortunately they do. However, there are a couple of non-obvious problems with the rod: It requires a free hand to use one and you generally need a divine focus in the other. If I were a picky DM, I'd make the player not have a shield or weapon drawn while doing this. What hand is drawing out the material component if it has both a focus and a material component? You can only use one rod at once. This is a larger problem than it seems, because if you're doing Divine Quicken(as an example), you need to use up an actual turning attempt to use it. One of the more broken items though. Because of the free hand problem, it basically gravitates its use towards cheese. Nightsticks. Caveat: I don't have Libris Mortis here, and I haven't looked at Nightsticks closely. From what I'm hearing, Nightsticks give a +4 to your turn attempts for the day. Bonuses from similar sources don't stack unless otherwise documented. Multiple nightsticks shouldn't stack. Can anyone refute that, preferably with the test of Nightstick? --Penn, Ket Triad
JohnduBois 01-13-06, 02:58 PM	Wouldn't the use of nightsticks work in a similar manner to modifications to a cleric's Charisma score for the purpose of turns/day? It seems to me that people with multiple nightsticks are saying, "OK, I'll take this nightstick and use its four turns, then take another one and use its four turns." What the text would imply to me as a DM is, "This item increases the amount of turning attempts you have per day by four." So a cleric who can normally turn five times a day pulls out two nightsticks (one in each hand) and can turn thirteen times due to its ability. Then, he uses Divine Metamagic and blows all of them. Even if he pulls out two different nightsticks, he still wouldn't be able to turn additional times because his maximum turns per day (thirteen) equals the number of turns he used (also thirteen). This probably isn't as clearly articulated as I want it to be, but there's an FAQ entry on the interaction between Charisma changes and turning attempts that explains it pretty well.
Azerin 01-13-06, 03:28 PM	There's just one last thought I had, while this discussion carries well off the topic of divine metamagic. Nightsticks are huge if they work the way they are generally accepted to work, but with 16th level characters gone, its not a big thing anymore. Its rare to see them at any apl less then 14th, and when a character hits 14 / 15, he is basically out the door... a good month of playing can retire a character when it hits 14 these days. I think you'll be seeing less and less of the "wow" characters this year, in a huge noticable way... 7500gp isn't a lot at apl 16, but it's bank breaking at apl 12. -Azerin Edit, and just to get it back on topic, I'm still debating the legality of a "divinely-meta-maxamize'd-lesser-rod-of-empowered" Cause serious wounds as a nice sting for a tank with a spell storing weapon; the added 43 damage (will save 14 for half) could make a nice sting at apl 6.
Arvagor 01-13-06, 03:38 PM	IIRC (sorry, I don't keep my Libris Mortis at work with me :) ), the nightstick is in the RODS section of the LM. Many rods have charges that are renewed on a daily basis (rod of lordly might or rod of negation, for example). I don't see how a nightstick would be any different in this regard. For example, if a PC had 2 Lesser Metamagic (Empower) rods, would you let them have only 1 use total from the rod(s) per day? If you look at it that way (1 turn attempt = 1 charge from the rod, and the rod only has 4 charges/day), then I don't see how it's that out of line with many of the other rods that exist...
Gelth 01-13-06, 03:39 PM	Wouldn't the use of nightsticks work in a similar manner to modifications to a cleric's Charisma score for the purpose of turns/day? That seems to fit easily within the rules, as does the stacking issue (it's basically the same ruling). It looks like the usage of multiple nightsticks is an ambiguous issue under the rules, and as such can be ruled either way by a judge, as with so many rules. I urge people who see this kind of thing to keep the number of hands being used in mind, as metamagic rods also take a hand. I wouldn't however require a holy symbol focus to take a separate hand from any material component, I believe the intent of the rules is to allow casting any spell with one hand only. --Penn, Ket Triad
JamesMaissen 01-13-06, 08:42 PM	BONUSES do not stack. This is not a bonus. A PC simply gains "four more uses of the ability per day." I'd like your interpretation to be the case, but I don't think the rules support it. Shawn Just as much as if one is the recipient of an Eagle's Splendor Spell or a CHA enhancing item.. they increase the number of Turning attempts you have available for the day. But the number of times you have made attempts that day is still remembered. While holding the nightstick you can turn undead a total number of times that is 4 higher than normal. It does not suddenly forget how many times you've turned undead that day which may also exceed that number. To whit if you have a 10cha and thus 3 turn attempts and have used 2 then pick up a night stick you would have a total of 7 turn attempts and have used 2. If you use 3 more, while holding the nightstick you would have 7 turn attempts and would have used 5 attempts that day. You put it down and you have used 5 turn attempts, but being granted only 3 means you could not turn anymore that day. If you then subsequently pick up a nightstick (or put on a +6 cloak of charisma) you could then turn undead again (or twice more in the case of a night stick). With both at the same time you could turn undead while your number of attempts was less than 10 attempts. Think of it dynamically like hps and CON (you keep track of damage done to you) and everything else. -James