Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jay_Ibero_911 12-13-06, 12:15 AM	Seriously! What's the point of giving access to all these non-masterwork items that except at maybe APL 2 become worthless as soon as you can afford a +1 version of the standard weapons/armor? It's like a horrendous tease! I wish they would just change the rule and make it so if you have access to the regular version of something, you have access to a masterwork version as well. Then there might be a little more variety if people could reliably get upgrade-able versions of some of these exotic weapons and armor from all the newer books. Would it even unbalance the game to give core access to all exotic weapons from core sources at level 3 when you gain access to everything else? The spiked chain is already core, so how much worse could it get? i just don't like be limited to so relatively few worthwhile weapons...
LGMoses 12-13-06, 12:53 AM	I don't htink it'd make since. If they're so exotic then y are they so easy to find? Just my 2 cents
solbergb 12-13-06, 04:14 PM	Yes. Mostly people who use large numbers of them (thrown weapon monkies) or who cast GMW routinely (gish, melee clerics) or both (telekenetic sorcerers who cart around 10 cold iron warmaces....like my character) It isn't common, but some people don't want to pay 300gp for an extra +1 to hit on something they'll either never enchant or will cast a spell that overrides the bonus anyway.
Shieldhart91 12-13-06, 10:44 PM	I'm confused...what're so special about throwing weapons anyways?
ShinAkuma2 12-14-06, 12:26 AM	I'm confused...what're so special about throwing weapons anyways? Nothing really, but if you want to base your offense around them, you'll need a lot. Even if you somehow scrounge the money to make them all Returning, you'll still need 1 for each normal attack, plus things like Two-Weapon Fighting, Rapid Shot, and others will add to your needs. In short, you need lots of your throwing weapon of choice to use them more than once per combat.
gomeztoo 12-14-06, 05:52 AM	My char has a whole collection of exotic weapons: boomerang, kaorti dagger, elven lightblade, tonfa, and whip-dagger, as well as bolas, a two-bladed sword (her token weapon), and a net. She uses Master's Touch to wield them. Ocacsionally, they can be useful (i.e. tripping on a distance), and some are 'nice to have'- but on most I wouldn't spend money to make them masterwork.
Jay_Ibero_911 12-14-06, 01:20 PM	Ok, so it doesn't matter so much to casters who want a gimmick weapon, especially when they have spells available like Master's Touch and Greater Magic Weapon. Fine. What about all the poor fighters out there who are the ones who are actually supposed to use those weapons? The folks who actually have to spend feats and gold to use a weapon well? Where's the love? Even the metaorgs in my region only give access to non-masterwork exotic weapons...It's like they don't want fighters using anything other than the normal stuff, since without reliable access, there's no point in even taking proficiency, and without proficiency, there's no point in using most of the weapons at all...It's all a scam to give casters more options while sticking it to the poor old fighter...
solbergb 12-14-06, 03:31 PM	I'm confused...what're so special about throwing weapons anyways? If you have the right combination of feats, it means after you eviscerate the guy next to you with a lucky crit on your second swing, the rest of your attacks can be aimed at somebody else. Or it means you can engage at range 30-100' or so with a full attack what you could only have engaged with a single attack or perhaps not at all normally. I saw a L12 fighter who took this approache at a recent battle interactive. He was a solid contributor in melee - very high AC and respectable damage with his 2H weapon/animated tower shield. But any round he wasn't next to an enemy he was dishing out 40-60 points of damage with javelins- not amazing but better than his single attack and sufficient to provide a significant boost to ranged spellpower, or encourage enemies to close to his even more effective melee attack. It was an unusual approach, but it appeared to work pretty well. There wasn't anywhere safe on the battlefield from him, and his 28 javelins lasted a while before my servant horde started having to gather them up and restock him.
Japangirl 12-14-06, 04:01 PM	As a rogue, if someone is willing to give you a Greater Invis, you can dish out the damage from range. While I don't have Quick Draw yet, I will, and then that's a full round TWF/ITWF attack with 7d6 sneak on each one, subject of course to the usual sneak attack restrictions.
clannagh 12-14-06, 09:51 PM	lets look at this more seriously rather than assume people are running around throwing great falchions ... an exotic weapon like a Great Bow or Elvencourt Blade cna be really useful in a character build however you need to invest feats just to use the items and more feats to get weapon focus etc (there is some argument that longbow feats work for great bows but there would be table variation) however in LG .. - access is often "adventure" - access is often not masterwork so .. are you goign to invest several feats in an item that firstly cannot be upgrade and secondly is irreplacable if it gets sundered ?? I somehow doubt it.
jhorred 12-15-06, 10:22 PM	If you have the right combination of feats, it means after you eviscerate the guy next to you with a lucky crit on your second swing, the rest of your attacks can be aimed at somebody else. Or it means you can engage at range 30-100' or so with a full attack what you could only have engaged with a single attack or perhaps not at all normally. I saw a L12 fighter who took this approache at a recent battle interactive. He was a solid contributor in melee - very high AC and respectable damage with his 2H weapon/animated tower shield. But any round he wasn't next to an enemy he was dishing out 40-60 points of damage with javelins- not amazing but better than his single attack and sufficient to provide a significant boost to ranged spellpower, or encourage enemies to close to his even more effective melee attack. It was an unusual approach, but it appeared to work pretty well. There wasn't anywhere safe on the battlefield from him, and his 28 javelins lasted a while before my servant horde started having to gather them up and restock him. It's just a normal Heavy Shield. The AC bump from a tower shield is nice, but the attack penalty from a tower shield would limit my power attack/throw. The javelin thing has been more effective than I expected, it wasn't something I even tried until 10th level when I picked up quickdraw. I had brutal throw and power throw before that and I took weapon focus and specialization Javelin at 12th. One big limitation with the thrown weapon approach is that each weapon has to be bought seperately. Having multiple magical javelins really isn't an option, as even the 8 masterwork javelins I have cost me 2408gp. I have 20 normal 1gp guys I use when I might lose them.
Dragon9 12-16-06, 12:10 AM	Nothing really, but if you want to base your offense around them, you'll need a lot. Even if you somehow scrounge the money to make them all Returning, you'll still need 1 for each normal attack, plus things like Two-Weapon Fighting, Rapid Shot, and others will add to your needs. In short, you need lots of your throwing weapon of choice to use them more than once per combat. Pffftt... yeah... and you have to find access to Returning! I have a Master Thrower character who is 9th level now and I have yet to see Returning offered on an AR! Grrrr!!
Japangirl 12-16-06, 01:41 AM	Hehe. I just have lots and lots of normal, not even MW daggers. They're 1g apiece, no big deal if I lose them.
Dragon9 12-16-06, 01:48 AM	Same here... 10 daggers, 10 throwing axes. I'm saving though so I can get those returning daggers when they show up though!
Britt 12-16-06, 03:16 AM	Back when I was more manipulative of the rules, I used to carry 10 daggers so a '1' on a Reflex save wouldn't get to my wings of flying, at least until I finally found a hat of disguise to soak that fourth slot. Since I only had armor, weapon in hand, and animated shield, I needed something else to take up the fourth slot before it got to cloak, so after full attacking each round, I would switch to one-handed grip on my falchion and Quick Draw a dagger so I would have two weapons in hand. Start of each round I would drop the dagger and switch back to 2h. The things we do to protect 56k gp items :p Note: I wouldn't do this anymore, as it's too cheesy...maybe...those wings are pricey.
Mommy was an Orc 12-16-06, 10:10 AM	I'm confused...what're so special about throwing weapons anyways? There's a lot of interesting options out there, especially if you've got the right access, Dex and/or BAB and Quickdraw. Nets and Bolas can be extraordinarily effective, even non-proficient, without Precise Shot and Improved Trip. An Entangled opponent can't charge or 5' step - you 5' step back and toss with your worst attack. And with the way that d20s work, even a puny 6 Str Halfling Rogue has a shot of tripping a Giant. You might not want to be in that situation, but my 10 Str Human bard has tripped a BDF and a vampire, both of which directly led to the end of the combat. Shuriken also can be a lot of fun - they're easy to enchant(50 in a shot from GMW), cheap, light, don't need Quickdraw to use, and you can easily get a range of cold iron and silver. You're hasted, you've already attacked twice on an opponent who is now dead and there's an opponent 15' away - throw a shuriken or two in his direction or 5' step up to him so he can full attack you? If you're an archer in a Greyhawk mod, they're not a horrifyingly bad substitute for a bow, even non-proficient, especially if you have the GMW going. My archer even has Skiprock access, so while I'm not proficient, when my bow isn't out for some reason, I can toss those instead.
echoota 12-17-06, 10:34 AM	I too am frustrated with the fact that you can't masterwork and enchant exotic weapons. I understand the need for a lot of restrictions for play balance, but letting players properly invest in unusual weapons doesn't seem like a game breaker to me. Anything that is going to let us have more diversity in how we are expressing our characters is something that should be cultivated within the game. There isn't enough time in your standard game slot to really roleplay your way to some unique developments, because of that we need to have a way of expressing ourselves a bit more through equipment. LG is fun but I'm enjoying the much wider range of options players have with the Xen'drik campaign.