Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Reska 04-10-07, 09:30 PM	From untold stories of the past, it's been stated that Animal Companions, upon gaining extra hit-dice, do not gain the ability point commonly received by every creature upon getting 4 HD. The logic is that the Str/Dex adjustment takes the place of said ability bump. However, precedent has been made in the most recent Dragon Magazine #355 (which states it references official errata) and clarifies that said animal companions DO gain the ability score increase. Far be it for me to start another big flame war, and obviously since it's not FAQ it's subject to interpretation... So...discuss?
clannagh 04-10-07, 10:35 PM	Be good if you gave more information as its not so much "untold stories" that have resulted in that ruling but rather a fairly clear RAW reading of the PHB/SRD. Animal Companion Basics: Use the base statistics for a creature of the companion’s kind, but make the following changes. This appears to limit the changes from base to SPECIFICALLY those listed and no more. Bonus HD: Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Remember that extra Hit Dice improve the animal companion’s base attack and base save bonuses. An animal companion’s base attack bonus is the same as that of a druid of a level equal to the animal’s HD. An animal companion has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the animal’s HD). An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice. .. and the list of what animal companians get with extra HD clearly does NOT include the stat bump so combining these two quotes means no stat bump. At least that is how it was done in the past. What is this new ruling of which you speak ?
Reska 04-10-07, 11:08 PM	Not so much a ruling, but in the most recent Dragon #355 (pg 88), The druid guide mentions it. Obviously, it's not a ruling, but it is an article that "employs charts, rules clarifications, feat and prestige class suggestions, and rulebook references to enhance and ease the playability of the druid." It then goes on to discuss Animal Companions, as well as pointing out what you just stated, and adding on "in addition to the ability score increase they gain every four HD." So, I thought I'd bring it up for discussion, even though it may not have any bearing at all...
Samwise 04-11-07, 01:56 AM	Who wrote this druid guide?
Reska 04-11-07, 02:47 AM	Who wrote this druid guide? Are you asking in honest query? Or are you asking to prove me wrong on it? Either way, Amber E. Scott...someone I don't know, but apparently made it into the magazine. Again, I posed this for discussion, not automatic dismissal because the author isn't the original designers, or one of the circle, or the like. Me, I'm fine if the ability score isn't added. I'm also doubly fine if it is. Oh, and for giving more information, I thought it wasn't ethically sound to post word for word from a published document that's not the SRD?
clannagh 04-11-07, 03:13 AM	Are you asking in honest query? Or are you asking to prove me wrong on it? Either way, Amber E. Scott...someone I don't know, but apparently made it into the magazine. Again, I posed this for discussion, not automatic dismissal because the author isn't the original designers, or one of the circle, or the like. Me, I'm fine if the ability score isn't added. I'm also doubly fine if it is. Oh, and for giving more information, I thought it wasn't ethically sound to post word for word from a published document that's not the SRD? I do not think anyone is trying to prove you wrong. It is more that a vast amount of material is published by wizards in various places over the years and some of it ends up being contradictory. Some idea of who was the source will give people more of an idea whether it is in fact a change that may make it to official FAQ status eventually or simply a mistake that slipped past the editors.
Samwise 04-11-07, 04:22 AM	What clannagh said. I don't have my issue yet, and I want to know who wrote it. Is it a regular WotC column? Is it a regular WotC contributor? If it is just some random article, then it is quite possible the person just got it wrong. As it is, Amber Scott has worked on one book for WotC, so should be expected to get something like that right. The next question is, how is the article presented? If it is just an article, then it is irrelevant. It has no official status to modify or affect the rules.
Arvagor 04-11-07, 08:38 AM	If it is just an article, then it is irrelevant. It has no official status to modify or affect the rules.It's in the back, in the area that used to be "Class Acts", etc. ... (i.e., IMO, only an article...)
The_Jester 04-11-07, 09:25 AM	If the animal gets skills and feats for advancing HD why wouldn't it also get stat boost? It's not explicitly mentioned but that could just as easily be an accidental omission as purposefully. Plus, if they weren't supposed to get something that'd likely be spelt out in the rules.
Mystical_Tutor 04-11-07, 09:56 AM	If the animal gets skills and feats for advancing HD why wouldn't it also get stat boost? The Animal Companion does get ability stat boosts. But we don't get to choose them, they are in the cart (Str/Dex). In fact it gets a lot more ability boosts from the chart than it ever would by using the 4 level rule (2 every 3 HD). I struggled with this and other aspects for some time, making a lot of errors trying to improve my animal companion from my druid level 1 to level 13. Seemed like everything I did, someone said I was wrong. Finally I wrote WotC Customer service and asked them. They confirmed that the PHB is correct. The ability boosts are included in the chart. Afterthought: The PHB refres you to the MM. That restates word for word the thing about feats and skills. CAUTION! That same chapter of the MM (Ch 4) also provides a LOT of information about advancing 'monsters'. Most of this, including the paragraphs on Ability Score Arrays, does NOT apply to an AC. BUT EARMARK this chapter. It is very very valuable when the time comes that you cast Animal Growth-both for your AC and the animals you summon.
clik_ml 04-11-07, 10:28 AM	Either way, Amber E. Scott...someone I don't know She's a freelance writer, so I wouldn't take her article as having the full force of errata or FAQ. She's good people and I imagine that the inclusion of a stat bump was a minor oversight. Heck, I thought animal companions got that too when I first started in LG.
Jay_Ibero_911 04-11-07, 11:14 AM	...BUT EARMARK this chapter. It is very very valuable when the time comes that you cast Animal Growth-both for your AC and the animals you summon. Just curious as why you would need that with Animal Growth? All the changes that occur are included in the spell description... [Edit] On another note...one problem that can crop up is if animal companions did get the selectable 4th level stat bump...people could put that into intelligence, and you end up with people running around with sentient animals...
Samwise 04-11-07, 11:57 AM	It's in the back, in the area that used to be "Class Acts", etc. ... (i.e., IMO, only an article...) That's what I'd call it.
Reska 04-11-07, 12:12 PM	It's in the back, in the area that used to be "Class Acts", etc. ... (i.e., IMO, only an article...) Most times I'd agree with you. The "Class Acts" tend to be extra stuff that's not found in books, or ways to change what are found in books to fit a particular theme of the article, or even variant rules. This time, though, it moved from that to a more specific "Here's the up and up on Druid and their different abilities." With nothing really being presented as new EXCEPT for that one line (and maybe the "Influencing Animal Attitudes" chart). Everything else in the article is directly out of all the books and errata.
ShinAkuma2 04-11-07, 12:27 PM	If you search through the MM and PHB, you'll notice you get a +1 stat bump every four levels. Unless your animal companion is getting levels, he's not entitled to stat bumps. The section on advancement by HD doesn't list stat increases as part of the benefit. That's only for class levels.
kenobi65 04-11-07, 12:46 PM	If you search through the MM and PHB, you'll notice you get a +1 stat bump every four levels. Unless your animal companion is getting levels, he's not entitled to stat bumps. The section on advancement by HD doesn't list stat increases as part of the benefit. That's only for class levels. I believe that's incorrect. It's every four hit dice, in the same way that a creature gets a new feat every three hit dice. It just so happens that for most humanoids (and, thus, most PCs), level = hit dice. Edit: In fact, from the SRD: Treat monster Hit Dice the same as character level for determining ability score increases. This only applies to Hit Dice increases, monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they "already reached" with their racial Hit Dice, since these adjustments are included in their basic ability scores.
Mystical_Tutor 04-11-07, 04:37 PM	Just curious as why you would need that with Animal Growth? All the changes that occur are included in the spell description... I wish I could have gone with that simplistic view of the spell. It would have saved a LOT of work for me and is an interesting can of worms I didn't want to open here but now that you have... Here is the problem. The spell states that it changes an animal's size category to the next largest size. It then provides a nice list of stat that this change causes. But the stat changes listed only apply to the example given in the spell--Large to Huge--and do not work on most other size changes (i.e. Diminutive to Tiny or Huge to Gargantuan). Yet the way it is printed it sure reads like those stats must be applied to all animals affected by AG and I am sure some would argue that 'because this is the way the spell is printed' these stats must apply to all size changes period'. That, then, contridicts the specific guidance provided on animal size changes found in table 4-2 p 291 of the MM. This could result in a shootout between Animal Growth as a spell with the PHB as the 'primary source' for spells and animal stats for play balance with the MM as the primary source for animal stats. While preparing pre-calculated stat cards for the animals I could summon and cast Animal Growth on I leaned heavily on CS at WotC. Their advice was to go with the MM as the bottom line for what the stats of a given critter would be. Part of their explination was that the PHB normally uses a medium size as an example for spell effect and that was probably the case for AG. In this same vain, the PHB refers one to the DMG to determine the increase in damage because of the change in size. But one should notice that there is an increase damage table in the MM, p 291 that focuses more on animal weapons than on weapons per se. Not all changes are the same in both charts. Two other things I like about this chapter are: 1) The deffinitions of each part of the discription of a monster, and 2) The step-by-step process on applying a templet. It kept me from forgetting things.
Jay_Ibero_911 04-11-07, 05:18 PM	I wish I could have gone with that simplistic view of the spell. It would have saved a LOT of work for me and is an interesting can of worms I didn't want to open here but now that you have... Here is the problem. The spell states that it changes an animal's size category to the next largest size. It then provides a nice list of stat that this change causes. But the stat changes listed only apply to the example given in the spell--Large to Huge--and do not work on most other size changes (i.e. Diminutive to Tiny or Huge to Gargantuan). Yet the way it is printed it sure reads like those stats must be applied to all animals affected by AG and I am sure some would argue that 'because this is the way the spell is printed' these stats must apply to all size changes period'. That, then, contridicts the specific guidance provided on animal size changes found in table 4-2 p 291 of the MM. This could result in a shootout between Animal Growth as a spell with the PHB as the 'primary source' for spells and animal stats for play balance with the MM as the primary source for animal stats. While preparing pre-calculated stat cards for the animals I could summon and cast Animal Growth on I leaned heavily on CS at WotC. Their advice was to go with the MM as the bottom line for what the stats of a given critter would be. Part of their explination was that the PHB normally uses a medium size as an example for spell effect and that was probably the case for AG. In this same vain, the PHB refers one to the DMG to determine the increase in damage because of the change in size. But one should notice that there is an increase damage table in the MM, p 291 that focuses more on animal weapons than on weapons per se. Not all changes are the same in both charts. Two other things I like about this chapter are: 1) The deffinitions of each part of the discription of a monster, and 2) The step-by-step process on applying a templet. It kept me from forgetting things. I'm not seeing anything dependent on the specific size of the animals being affected by the spell: Animal Growth Transmutation Level: Drd 5, Rgr 4, Sor/Wiz 5 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Targets: Up to one animal (Gargantuan or smaller) per two levels, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart Duration: 1 min./level Saving Throw: Fortitude negates Spell Resistance: Yes A number of animals grow to twice their normal size and eight times their normal weight. This alteration changes each animal’s size category to the next largest, grants it a +8 size bonus to Strength and a +4 size bonus to Constitution (and thus an extra 2 hit points per HD), and imposes a –2 size penalty to Dexterity. The creature’s existing natural armor bonus increases by 2. The size change also affects the animal’s modifier to AC and attack rolls and its base damage. The animal’s space and reach change as appropriate to the new size, but its speed does not change. The spell also grants each subject damage reduction 10/magic and a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws. If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the creature attains the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it— the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size. All equipment worn or carried by an animal is similarly enlarged by the spell, though this change has no effect on the magical properties of any such equipment. Any enlarged item that leaves the enlarged creature’s possession instantly returns to its normal size. The spell gives no means of command or influence over the enlarged animals. Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack. Completely independent of the animal's original size, just like Enlarge Person, Reduce Person, or Righteous Might. The spells all give very specific benefits regardless of the size of the creature they are affecting...
Mystical_Tutor 04-11-07, 07:39 PM	I'm not seeing anything dependent on the specific size of the animals being affected by the spell: You should have. You quoted it: "This alteration changes each animal’s size category to the next largest," That says to me that the resulting size is dependent on the starting size. There is no independence here. You can not jump a size. The animal moves up one size category. But, in any case, I gather we should put you in the slot of "These are the only stats the animal can have". No problem, enjoy!
Dasher2k 04-12-07, 12:35 AM	I do not have my books with me but from what I remember the animal companion is gaining "bonus" HD and is not advancing in HD. From the FAQ: "The animal companion rules—or, for that matter, pretty much any other effect that grants a creature bonus Hit Dice— don’t use the monster improvement rules presented in Chapter 4 of the Monster Manual. The rules in Monster Manual are for creating tougher versions of existing monsters, not for increasing the statistics of creatures who gain Hit Dice." From the LGCS: "Advanced animal companions gain only what is specifically mentioned in the PH." If there is no stat dump listed, then they do not get one (except for Str/Dex).
Timlagor 04-12-07, 01:29 AM	I'm with Jay on this one: you get the changes of the spell. You change *size category* by one step but you don't *advance size category*. There is no reference to the advancing monster rules in the spell.
Mystical_Tutor 04-12-07, 12:22 PM	I'm with Jay on this one: you get the changes of the spell. You may be right <smile>. Play it as you see it but you really screw some of your summoned animals that way. We have wandered from the orginal question, probably my fault so I will bow out of this thread as it really is more of a core issue than a LG issue. Have a great day, unless you get a better option.
Mystical_Tutor 04-14-07, 02:43 PM	You change *size category* by one step but you don't *advance size category*. There is no reference to the advancing monster rules in the spell. I think we need to look at the title of the spell itself. We are not reducing or enlarging. The animal is growing. As such it follows a pattern that has been carefully thought out. One in which one set of stats will not fit all. The analogies to enlarge/shrink person just don't apply. There are no humanoids that can be changed from Huge to Gargantuan or from diminutive to tiny and therefore no need to have progressive stats. As an aside you will also notice that where enlarge/reduce counter each other, there is no opposite spell from animal growth. In any case I am not trying to argue the point as much as trying to think through it logically (sigh, not always a reliable approach to D&D....). It just seems way out of line to try and apply those stats to all animal changes in size when there is such a reasonable progression provided within the system.
Timlagor 04-14-07, 08:45 PM	There is a reasonable progression listed as you say. However there is nothing in the spell text to tell us to use it so we don't in LG. The spell already does stuff that Enlarge Person doesn't which could reasonably account for the different name. In a homegame I'd certainly have a good look at it before rejecting the idea but it would definitely be a houserule.
Mystical_Tutor 04-15-07, 11:43 AM	There is a reasonable progression listed as you say. However there is nothing in the spell text to tell us to use it so we don't in LG. Because you seem to be someone seeking knowledge, instead of an argument, I think you might be interested in reading the write up of this spell in the 3.0 PHB. There the MM is directly referenced. Of corse that spell was badly broken (doubling the HD of the affected creature rather than using the MM chart) but it is clear that the change of size progression of the MM was the intent of the spell writers.
Timlagor 04-16-07, 12:21 AM	It referenced the MM in 3.0 It doesn't reference the MM in 3.5 Why assume that that was accidental?
Mystical_Tutor 04-16-07, 02:07 PM	It referenced the MM in 3.0 It doesn't reference the MM in 3.5 Why assume that that was accidental? I wasn't thinking accidental so much as editorial, but in any case, I was trying to see if insight could be gained from a historical point. Yes, I realized that opening that line of reasoning could work against my premise. If it does, so be it, as I am seeking knowledge and that is something I want to look at. If the editors of 3.5 intentionally left out the references to the MM was it because they wanted to change the way that part of the spell worked? If so, why and what was the reason to create a spell that would take animal development off-line from the rest of the core? There may be a reason, or there may be no reason at all--and it shows <grin>. PS. it seems we are the only ones interested in the subject, maybe we should move it to privet messages...
Timlagor 04-17-07, 12:00 AM	Have you tried asking the CS about it? [not binding in LG but might yield a useful insight]
Mystical_Tutor 04-17-07, 12:08 PM	Have you tried asking the CS about it? [not binding in LG but might yield a useful insight] Actually yes, sent them a post last week just before the weekend and got an answer last night. I stand corrected. There was an intentional change in the spell templating between 3.0 and 3.5 in which they decided to supply stats or reference them. So if there is no reference you go by what is printed in the spell (just as you and others have said in this thread). I went back through all my posts that I sent trying to do the stats for my AC and summoned creatures. I can see where they could easily have missed my reference to AG early on and from there, I was thinking AG was understood when it was not. I take full credit for the misunderstanding. Now I get to change all those cards (or not cast AG <grin>). Sorry for burning time and board space.