Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jfh33 12-27-06, 07:59 PM	Oog?
ShinAkuma2 12-27-06, 08:13 PM	So, uh, do you have a question?
jfh33 12-27-06, 08:39 PM	Can an LG druid retain weapon proficiency while wildshaped in the form of a monkey or ape.
Jay_Ibero_911 12-27-06, 09:19 PM	You would be capable of wielding the weapon...however you would have to pick up your weapon after wild shaping, otherwise it would be melded and unuseable. Also, you would need to get an appropriate sized weapon...and most PC's don't have access to many large sized weapons...nevermind ones druids are proficient with...much better to just use greater magic fang...
Sieylianna 12-27-06, 09:35 PM	Can an LG druid retain weapon proficiency while wildshaped in the form of a monkey or ape. Expect table variation. You know how to wield the weapon, but a lot of judges will rule that you (or your animal companion) can not use a weapon. Ed
Lupo 12-28-06, 10:01 AM	Can an LG druid retain weapon proficiency while wildshaped in the form of a monkey or ape. i would rule a strict NO at any table i dm. it would open a giant sized can of worms. my druid character would instantly demand tiger or bear fitting spiked gauntlets ;) ciao martin m.
Arvagor 12-28-06, 11:32 AM	my druid character would instantly demand tiger or bear fitting spiked gauntletsWhy??? You're getting more attacks and doing better damage with both of those creatures natural weapons than you would if they were fitted with spiked gauntlets of some kind...
KShaver 12-28-06, 04:01 PM	...however you would have to pick up your weapon after wild shaping, otherwise it would be melded and unuseable. Expect table variation on this ruling as well, only items not usable by the new form meld. Allowing the primate to pick up and use the weapons means you admit they never would have melded in the first place.
Lupo 12-28-06, 06:39 PM	Why??? You're getting more attacks and doing better damage with both of those creatures natural weapons than you would if they were fitted with spiked gauntlets of some kind... as long as the FAQ has two contradicting rulings on unarmed attacks and gauntlets it might work ;) natural weapons can at best be enchanted with "magic fang, greater", you cant even apply silversheen to them. and sometimes you really want to bypass DR and not just have to hack through it. just equip the rear claws of the tiger with spiked gauntlets :D ciao martin m. ps: but i am in the camp that wouldn't let a monk use spiked gauntlets as part of his flurry, BUT if someone goes for maximum cheese they would work the same way for animals . . . .
Jay_Ibero_911 12-28-06, 07:35 PM	Expect table variation on this ruling as well, only items not usable by the new form meld. Allowing the primate to pick up and use the weapons means you admit they never would have melded in the first place. Ok, this must have something to do with the LG/WOTC differences with regard to polymorph in general, because in the SRD is says that "Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional." Could you please point out where I can find documentation about useable equipment not melding?
KShaver 12-29-06, 08:04 AM	Ok, this must have something to do with the LG/WOTC differences with regard to polymorph in general, because in the SRD is says that "Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional." Could you please point out where I can find documentation about useable equipment not melding? I see that in the errata, but not in the SRD. LGCS uses quite different rules on wild shape, it does not use the errata and wild shape still references polymorph, which in turn references alter self, which does not force all gear to meld. Now, that being said, the LGCS does specifically state in regards to items not melded while using polymorph, "Equipment does not resize. If you change size, only the following slots continue to function normally;..." Since weapons are not on the list you have to stick with what you have, which means staying the same size or carrying the appropriately sized weapons with you.
haferka 12-29-06, 09:47 AM	There is NOTHING in the rules that would prevent your druid from wielding a weapon in animal form. As long as you can pick up the manufactured weapon with your "hands" you can wield it. Primates have "hands" so they can wield weapons, most animals have "paws" so they can NOT wield manufactured weapons. It is also possible to "train" an animal to wield a weapon. But the only rule that would allow this is for Animal companions that gain bonus feats (which could be used for Weapon Proficiencies). Most DMs will turn up their nose at the idea, but unill the rules are changed, it is a legal choice to give your animal proficiencies with weapons. - manufactured weapons for creatures with "hands" - armor spikes for creatures without spikes Be warned, in most cases it is NOT worth the hassle to try giving your animal a weapon. Rule 0 still applies, and most DMS do not like the idea of animals wielding weapons. I for one will probably have my ape wielding a club. Its a simple weapon, there are plenty of RL examples of primates using clubs.
Britt 12-29-06, 12:40 PM	There's also nothing in the rules that says you have to sleep, but you do. Saying it's not in the rules is not a panacea argument for anything.
Samwise 12-29-06, 02:32 PM	Even more fun, you still can't starve to death. Sandstorm changes dehydration so it goes lethal after you are unconscious, and the errata now has death by suffocation, but nothing has changed the DMG that starvation converts to lethal once you are unconscious.
Jay_Ibero_911 12-29-06, 09:24 PM	There's also nothing in the rules that says you have to sleep, but you do. Saying it's not in the rules is not a panacea argument for anything. Actually, you do NOT have to sleep, however in most cases you suffer fatigue/exhaustion if you don't, as well as not getting spells back if you are an arcane caster...A non-caster with immunity to exhaustion would have no reason to ever sleep. For instance, a friend of mine has a PC with Armor of the Unending Hunt, which provides immunity to fatigue and exhaustion, so he doesn't usually sleep, unless he needs to recover some of his bard spells.
Starfox_SFX 12-30-06, 01:05 AM	There's also nothing in the rules that says you have to sleep, but you do. Saying it's not in the rules is not a panacea argument for anything. Well, under the creature type description, it does mention if a creature needs to breath eat or sleep. While the penalty for not breathing and not eating are listed, there is no official rule for what happens without sleep. And, as a friend pointed out "Ok, at level 1 I eat a meal and sleep for an evening. There, I've satisfied the requirements of the humanoid type and don't have to do either again for the rest of my career":D :P
haferka 12-30-06, 01:45 AM	There's also nothing in the rules that says you have to sleep, but you do. Saying it's not in the rules is not a panacea argument for anything. OK. Rule 0: Requiring sleep, and applying fatigue "situational modifiers" makes sense, since the rules don't even touch the issue of sleep deprivation. Weapon proficiencies are dealt with in detail. All a creatures needs is a limb capable of wielding a weapon. Weapon Proficiencies remove the non-proficiency penalties. I understand your hesitation to allow animals to wield weapons so I suggest that the following compromise. Allow trick(s) to wield weapons. Just like the "trip attack" of a riding dog, which takes 2 tricks. Rule 0: manufactured weapon trick, allows the animal to wield a specific type of simple weapon(2 trick slots). Martial weapons would take 4 tricks, and exotic weapons would require 6 tricks. This does NOT grant proficiency with the weapon. Trainer must possess the weapon proficiency to train the animal for this purpose. The animal must be capable of wielding the weapon. (no dogs with lances, but an ape with a club would be fine.)
Britt 12-30-06, 02:24 AM	That would be good, but that's not an allowed trick nor is it similar to other tricks. If you wanted to make up a trick (if that were legal), to have it like the trip attack would be more like the "thrust" trick, and the "downward swing" trick, and the "horizontal swing" trick, and the... Using a weapon effectively in combat is far more complicated than any of the tricks available to animals, even the Trip attack. While some animals have been known to use simple tools and maybe a rock or big stick to hit things, that is a far cry from how weapons are used in combat. An ape attempting to use a falchion would not be able to accomplish anything remotely resembling even a -4 to attacks. It would be hitting with the sides or back of the weapon as often as the edge; even when it hit with the edge, it wouldn't be wielding it in such a way as to do full damage. Most likely, it would swing it once or twice and then throw it away to start beating with its fists. Simple weapons, provided somewhat reasonable physiology, are less of an issue, but I still wonder if an animal could really use one properly.
haferka 12-30-06, 10:22 AM	I believe the LG ruleing that "trip attack" of the riding dog requiring 2 trick slots gives a great presedence for further LG "custom tricks". How about this: The manufactured weapon trick allows the animal to wield a specific type of weapon. The animal must be capable of wielding the weapon. (no dogs with lances, but an ape with a club would be fine.) Trainer must possess the weapon proficiency to train the animal for this purpose. You must choose a damage type (Bludgeoning, Slashing or Piercing) as well as a weapon category (Simple, Martial or Exotic). Any weapon that fits more than one of these categories requires a seperate trick for each. This does NOT grant proficiency with a weapon, so normal non-proficiency penalties still apply. This does NOT provide the ability to perform actions other than simple attack actions. Further, this does NOT provide the capability to perform combat manuvers beyond a simple attack. Simple weapon tricks cost 2 trick slots, Martial weapons cost 4 trick slots, and Exotic weapons cost 6 trick slots. This training does NOT "teach" the animal any concept of "Reach" so it might try to wield a reach weapon against adjacent targets. When listing the trick on the animals list of tricks (list the weapons which it is capable of wielding) The Combat manuver trick allows the animal to perform a specific combat tactic, such as trip, sunder, disarm, overrun, bullrush, etc. Each tactic requires 2 trick slots. Example 1: Manufactured Weapon (Simple, Bludgeoning) would allow the creature to wield: Clubs, guantlets, maces, quarterstaff, etc... (2 trick slots) Example 2: Manufactured Weapon (Martial, Piercing) would allow the creature to wield Armor spikes, picks, short sword, etc.. (4 trick slots) Example 3: Manufactured Weapon (Exotic, Slashing) would allow the creature to wield whip, spiked chain, bastard sword, etc... (6 trick slots)
qstor 12-30-06, 12:49 PM	I believe the LG ruleing that "trip attack" of the riding dog requiring 2 trick slots gives a great presedence for further LG "custom tricks". How about this: The manufactured weapon trick allows the animal to wield a specific type of weapon. The animal must be capable of wielding the weapon. (no dogs with lances, but an ape with a club would be fine.) HOW about this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#animalType Proficient with its natural weapons only. A noncombative herbivore uses its natural weapons as a secondary attack. Such attacks are made with a -5 penalty on the creature’s attack rolls, and the animal receives only ½ its Strength modifier as a damage adjustment. Mike
Samwise 12-30-06, 06:13 PM	Weapon proficiency is a feat, not a trick. Unless you can give your critter a feat, it can't use a weapon. It is still bound by the limits of a 2 Intelligence. Even if you could give it a trick to "use" a weapon, it would be just that, a trick, like performing in a circus. It would not have any resemblance to "use a weapon effectively in melee."
haferka 12-30-06, 08:09 PM	Weapon proficiency is a feat, not a trick. Unless you can give your critter a feat, it can't use a weapon. It is still bound by the limits of a 2 Intelligence. Even if you could give it a trick to "use" a weapon, it would be just that, a trick, like performing in a circus. It would not have any resemblance to "use a weapon effectively in melee." Correct, a "trick" to teach an animal to wield a weapon does NOT constitute Proficiency. It simply justifies a creature of LOW intelligence wielding the weapon in the first place. If that creature gains sufficient HD to earn additional feats, it could take Simple, Martial or Exotic weapon proficiency feats to remove the non-proficiency penalties.
Samwise 12-30-06, 08:30 PM	Correct, a "trick" to teach an animal to wield a weapon does NOT constitute Proficiency. It simply justifies a creature of LOW intelligence wielding the weapon in the first place. If that creature gains sufficient HD to earn additional feats, it could take Simple, Martial or Exotic weapon proficiency feats to remove the non-proficiency penalties. Many half-orcs are creatures of low intelligence. An animal with a score of 1 or 2 is a creature of animal intelligence, and a trick shouldn't justify anything more than managing circus trick level "use."
haferka 12-30-06, 11:14 PM	Lets agree to DISAGREE, there are plenty of cases where creatures of "animal" intelligence, have used complex tools. (with or without training). - I have seen birds that create paints & brushes to decorate elaborate structures that put most homes to shame.. - I know that apes have been known to use "clubs" to pummel their prey. - just do a google search.. you will find TONS of examples where "animals" exhibilt behavior FAR superior to what people expect them to be capable of, you think an animal (1-2 int) is stupid and incapable of doing anything complex, but humaniods are capable of "normal" behavior with an intelligence 1 point higher? but... this is a FANTASY campaign, so those "real world" examples should viewed "tip of the iceberg" for what CAN exist in a fantasy world.
Samwise 12-30-06, 11:48 PM	How about lets agree to not try to change the rules of the game? That what you want to base the change on is not accepted science is secondary and irrelevant to the rules of the game, not to mention being thoroughly off-topic.
haferka 12-31-06, 10:07 PM	How about lets agree to not try to change the rules of the game? That what you want to base the change on is not accepted science is secondary and irrelevant to the rules of the game, not to mention being thoroughly off-topic. ... I was suggesting a compromise between the players that want to have animal companions wielding weapons, and the DMs that don't like it. Adding the "tricks" to permit wielding weapons costs valuable tricks, and but provides justification to those DMs who are hesitant to allow animals to wield weapons. How is justifying my position with Real world examples off topic. (don't bother answering).
Samwise 01-01-07, 12:36 AM	... I was suggesting a compromise between the players that want to have animal companions wielding weapons, and the DMs that don't like it. A compromise on the rules? Then they aren't rules.
thorinXXX 01-09-07, 04:11 PM	I don't see very many judges allowing normal critters to use weapons, but that was not the original question. An ape is physically capable of wielding the weapon. Can someone who is proficient with a weapon use one while widshaped/polymorphed into ape form use a weapon?
haferka 01-09-07, 05:29 PM	Yes. a druid wild shaped into an ape CAN use a weapon, they will need to pick up the weapon after they wild shape, otherwise it will be molded into their ape form.
KShaver 01-10-07, 07:45 AM	Yes. a druid wild shaped into an ape CAN use a weapon, they will need to pick up the weapon after they wild shape, otherwise it will be molded into their ape form. Incorrect. See my earlier posts in this same thread about equipment melding. LG does not use the same rules for wild shape as home 3.5.
LachlarlanIII 01-10-07, 03:00 PM	Hey! If monkeys can't use manufactured weapons, why is there a Monkey Grip feat?! Huh? Huh?! :P The above was in jest and shouldn't be taken seriously.
thorinXXX 01-10-07, 03:37 PM	Incorrect. See my earlier posts in this same thread about equipment melding. LG does not use the same rules for wild shape as home 3.5. Interesting non answer. What would your ruling be in the following situation: Doug the druid wildshapes into a dire ape. Because he wants the damage for a large weapon he picks up a handy tree branch to use as a club. Is he allowed to attack with that club?
MatteBlack 01-10-07, 03:51 PM	I am of the opinion that druids shaped into forms with hands can pick up and wield humanoid hand items. It would seem to be follow the associated rules of wielding weapons with nothing that seems to argue against it in the rules. It is easy to imagine that a druid smart monkey would be able to do it. The only real argument against it I see is a question of taste. Many find weapon wielding primates a bit outside of their idea of "good" fantasy content. If your character is doing the goofiest crap at the table, it may be time to reconsider how you play. Lee
KShaver 01-11-07, 10:47 AM	Interesting non answer. What would your ruling be in the following situation: Doug the druid wildshapes into a dire ape. Because he wants the damage for a large weapon he picks up a handy tree branch to use as a club. Is he allowed to attack with that club? A tree branch does not a club make. Were it large enough, I would allow the druid to use it as an improvised weapon. He might be able to make it into a club in its own right with some weaponsmithing work, but the amount of time needed would likely have table variation (as a free item it breaks the normal craft rules). Also note that his ability to even purchase, pick up, or make a club of that size is also up to table variation, as w/o AR access he is normally not allowed. The best solution if the character absolutely must turn into a giant monkey and wield a large weapon is that he get AR access to it, buy it, and drag it around with him, even if he can' wield it most of the time (assuming large great club, as he could wield a large club in two hands), unless of course he has monkey grip :P. Then of course he'll want to wield a huge weapon as a large monkey, but I have yet to see huge weapon access on an AR.
Paul H 01-12-07, 10:29 PM	Hi Instead of using a larger weapon, why not just cast Shillelagh & your Club now does 3D6 base? (It would also count as a light weapon) Cheers Paul H