Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Necrochaos 01-23-07, 06:55 PM	So I'm thinking about making a druid. I was thinking about focusing on summoning taking augmented healing and such. I can cast them spontaneously as class. But my question is will he be as good as a wizard that can summon? I know most wizards head towards alienist and can really buff their creatures up. What feats and PrC's should I head towards? Am I looking in the wrong direction? Should I have a secondary focus? I've seen the master of many forms and some other cookie cutter builds, just wondering if this one can even prepare. You help will be greatly appreciated.
Sieylianna 01-23-07, 07:39 PM	You need to know where you want to go before we can help. Druids have a lot of flexibility. Personally, if my 12th level druid is casting a summoning spell, the party is in trouble. I generally buff my companion and cast spells. Ed
kegdrainer 01-23-07, 07:56 PM	First off, leave the healing to the clerics. Buying a wand of cure light wounds for 750gp will be better than spending the feat. With an 18 Wisdom, thats only 4 times a day that you can spontaneously cure. With the wand, if you fall in battle, then you will not be able to heal yourself, but there might be someone in the party that can use it (Cleric, Bard, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue with UMD, etc). If you go with a summoner druid, you will want to speed up the summoning time. Rapid Spell will help but then you are using a 2nd level spell to summon 1st level creatures. However, you can decide to use rapid spell at that time, rather than having to prepare it ahead of time. Take a look at Some handy links for CO work (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=482636) There are ideas for Druids in the handbook section. You will need to be careful as most of the books/feats might not work in LG but it will help give you an idea on building and playing druids.
Bob_the_Theurge 01-23-07, 08:24 PM	If you go with a summoner druid, you will want to speed up the summoning time. Rapid Spell will help but then you are using a 2nd level spell to summon 1st level creatures. However, you can decide to use rapid spell at that time, rather than having to prepare it ahead of time. This bit of advice is incorrect. You can't spontaneously cast a Rapid version of a Summoning spell, as the Special: section of Rapid Spell specifically states that only spells with a casting time greater than 1 round can have this feat applied spontaneously to them. If you're a Druid (or a Sorceror or Favored Soul) who wants to cast a Rapid Summoning spell, you have to memorize it ahead of time.
Necrochaos 01-23-07, 09:56 PM	My original post should have said augment summoning, not healing. I was really interested in focusing on summoning some better creatures and using them to wade into battle. Also I could use my companion to help do the fighting. Last resort, I could wild shape and help out as needed. I would still be a good spell caster. I was just curious to see if a summoning druid would be useful enough, or whether to leave the summoning to the wizard/sorcerors.
kegdrainer 01-23-07, 10:10 PM	oops. I was reading it wrong. However, it is still an option. Prepare it as a Rapid spell of a level lower and if you find that you can use a full round to summon something, you can then burn it to get the normal summoning. If you find that the party is getting clobered in the first round of battle, bring in some friends to even things up, using the rapid version. 1.) Spell Focus (Conj), Augment Summoning, 3.) Craft Wonderous Item 6.) Natural Spell Is a common build for the first 6 levels. Necrochaos, if you have never played a Druid before, I would suggest that you talk with the players in your area that run Druids, before you attempt it.
Necrochaos 01-23-07, 10:14 PM	That is probably a good idea. I've never played a druid. I usually play clerics. I'll have to look into it. Are there any good PrC's for a summoning druid? I saw the comtemplative idea to get access to a domain that gives your summons more time. Interesting idea, but I haven't checked the legality yet.
Crazy Boro 01-23-07, 10:21 PM	My original post should have said augment summoning, not healing. I was really interested in focusing on summoning some better creatures and using them to wade into battle. Also I could use my companion to help do the fighting. Last resort, I could wild shape and help out as needed. I would still be a good spell caster. I was just curious to see if a summoning druid would be useful enough, or whether to leave the summoning to the wizard/sorcerors. I've seen some fairly good summoning druids in use. The fun thing about them is that they get some of the monsters earlier than through summon monster. (ie: hippogriff is SNA 2, but SM 3. They also get the elementals one spell level earlier IIRC.) There's also the handy unicorn as a 4th level summon with its healing abilities and constant magic circle. :) Unfortunately, I'm not that good yet on the summoning bit to give too many pointers though. I've only been working with up to summon monster 3, so I don't know how well the summons will be at higher levels. My only summoner is definately not optimized. Especially not a cleric/alienist. In all, I'd say go for it if you feel like you'll enjoy playing such a character. Druid summoners can be pretty good, but I also think you should enjoy it as well if you're going to make such a character. :)
clannagh 01-23-07, 10:55 PM	do remember that animal growth works on your summons and effects an animal per 2 HD if you are not summoning MMOF/warshaper are popular for wild shape focussed druids and beast master/natural bond if you are companian focussed
Morgen 01-24-07, 12:12 AM	Straight Druids are pretty powerful. Good selection of animal companions on the like. Fire seeds if broken as all heck.
Mortepierre 01-24-07, 04:37 AM	I was just curious to see if a summoning druid would be useful enough, or whether to leave the summoning to the wizard/sorcerors. From level 1 to level 6, a druid summoner will always win over a wizard summoner (assuming both have Augment Summoning), because the druid gets bigger and better creatures earlier (hippogriff with SNA2 and dire wolf with SNA3). Not to mention that he doesn't even have to pray for the spell since he can access it in spontaneous casting. BIG advantage! From level 7, the wizard summoner starts to outshine the competition because of: a) the celestial/fiendish template which his pets receive automatically (they now have enough HD to get DR each and every time) b) the fact that he can summon Angels, Demons, and Devils (yeah, I know, he could already summon a Lemure or a Dretch but those are pretty weak) That doesn't mean that a high-level druid summoner isn't a viable option (anyone capable of summoning a T-Rex isn't someone you want to laugh at); it's just that he focuses on elemental creatures while the wizard deals with the Outer Planes. In general, though, a wizard's creatures will have more "options" (DR, SR, innate abilities) than those of a druid. Not to mention that they'll have a better Int score -> are able to obey more complex orders (assuming the wizard masters their language) Personally, my main is a Wizard (Conj.) specialized in summoning and he works routinely with a druidess summoner. Together, we have turned the tide of battle more often than I can remember (as long as the enemy doesn't have access to Dispel Magic, that is..)
ranagrande 01-24-07, 02:44 PM	I've toyed with the idea of making an Arcane Hierophant summoner. Could that work, or would it lose too much due to caster levels?
bitznarf 01-24-07, 05:48 PM	That is probably a good idea. I've never played a druid. I usually play clerics. I'll have to look into it. Are there any good PrC's for a summoning druid? I saw the comtemplative idea to get access to a domain that gives your summons more time. Interesting idea, but I haven't checked the legality yet. I'm of the opinion that the best PrC for druids is.. druid. There are no other classes that advance both your casting and your wildshape abilities. There are options out there that give you other abilities (and full caster progression), however you give up wildshape flexibility to get those other options.
Necrochaos 01-24-07, 05:53 PM	I came up with a quick druid build. I didn't have any books at work, just hero forge. Human (Suel) Str 10 Dex 10 Con 10 Int 12 Wis 16 Cha 14 Straight Druid 1- Auugment Summoning, Spell Focus (conj) 3- Rapid Spell 6- Natural Spell 9- Extend Spell 12- Lion's Pounce I plan to summon and wild shape if need be up into battle. I love the idea of casting as well. I think it could work out, but are there other feats I should be looking at? Is Extend or Lion's Pounce worth it?
Japangirl 01-24-07, 06:07 PM	Look to Extra Wildshape, you get three or four more per day, lets you be in shapes all day a lot sooner. Also, if you're dropping all physical stats to 10s, might as well go all the way and go to 8s and use the points for more mental stats. Get the 17 Wis and 14 Int (OK, 9 Str since you have one leftover), or get 18 Wis and hope for an inherent bump at some point.
Necrochaos 01-24-07, 06:11 PM	I put the 10's in so I didn't have any negatives. I've read posts on the usefulness of extra wild shape. Is it used that often that would warrant the extra shapes. I guess I love at it like extra rage. It's ok at low levels, but do you need it later? I don't know, that's why I am asking people on this board. I'm new to druids and just curious what is useful. Are there any limited feats I should be looking to get access to? I didn't see much that wasn't core acess that would help much.
jstorrie 01-24-07, 06:13 PM	Lion's Pounce is not all that great unless coupled with Shock Trooper or mounted charges, and you'll likely be spending your early combat actions summoning, not charging, anyway. So I'd drop it. Extend is nice for certain buffs, but not all that important for summoning. Your creatures are already around for nine rounds anyway at CL9. Spontaneous Healer is pretty good? Or you could pick up Empower - expect table variation on this, but you should be able to Empower a SNA if you're going for 1d3 or 1d4+1 less-powerful creatures, which is a lot more cost-effective than twin or quicken in terms of spell slots. If a particular DM doesn't like that, you can always just empower Fire Seeds instead.
Japangirl 01-24-07, 06:18 PM	It isn't that useful at higher levels, but it helps you survive to higher levels. And I know you chose the 10s so you wouldn't have negatives, but I think that if you truly want to min/max (and you certainly don't have to) they could be spent better elsewhere, since in an animal form they are effectively wasted points. Another option is 10 Con, 9 Str, 8 Dex to bump Wis to 17 so at 12 you get a base of 20, but you haven't lost nearly as much to do it. Limited feats wise, Natural Bond is pretty cool (+3 effective druid level, can't exceed HD) to get a better animal companion. But overall, I don't know limited druid feats very well either.
Necrochaos 01-24-07, 06:21 PM	It isn't that useful at higher levels, but it helps you survive to higher levels. And I know you chose the 10s so you wouldn't have negatives, but I think that if you truly want to min/max (and you certainly don't have to) they could be spent better elsewhere, since in an animal form they are effectively wasted points. Another option is 10 Con, 9 Str, 8 Dex to bump Wis to 17 so at 12 you get a base of 20, but you haven't lost nearly as much to do it. Limited feats wise, Natural Bond is pretty cool (+3 effective druid level, can't exceed HD) to get a better animal companion. But overall, I don't know limited druid feats very well either. I have a feeling that this build will be tough at lower levels as I will be fragile and not much help in battle other than entangle and my summons
mowaca 01-24-07, 08:29 PM	My main LG character is a 8th level Human Druid, with Spell focus conj, augment summoning, rapid spell and natural spell. I often find a few wolves or a hippogriff now is worth a direwolf 1 round later, and using a slot for it isn't that bad (remember, you can always spontaneously turn your rapid spell SNA into a regular SNA). The only regret I have is not starting with 18 wisdom. Also, most tables will expect you to be organized with your animal companion and summons and know ahead of time what they can do, so be prepared. Arcane Hierophant is a good PrC but just remember you don't get there until 8th level so you'll have a year or two of sucking beforehand... In any case, plain old straight Druids have a lot of options compared with other classes, and are pretty good at just about everything. You also tend to have a lot of money because you don't need any equipment, and a lot of good spells for creating items with CWI.
Nerax 01-24-07, 10:30 PM	Druids are great! I really enjoy playing mine. There are only three good PrC's for a Druid in my opinion: Beastmaster, Arcane Heirophant and Stormlord. For a Summoning Druid the only one I would consider would be Beastmaster but it is going to take a feat (S/F Handle Animal) to get it and you will loose a caster level. Getting a bigger and better A/C could be worth it though. I would also consider dropping your Cha to 12 and bump your Con up to 12. Even though you might plan on taking extra wilshape you still cannot pick that up until 6th level. This puts back Natural Spell until 9th...
Periac 01-28-07, 05:18 PM	I was thinking of a summoning druid too, but like the idea of a halfling. But - it gives some problems with the feat selection: 1.+3. the summoning feats, then natural spell, CWI, rapid spell, fast wildshape. Is this a good build? Or better forget the summoning feats and add mobility spell casting later and imp. init. to be a 'faster caster' to get rapid spell by 9th level?
Rerednaw 02-02-07, 12:12 PM	I was thinking of a summoning druid too, but like the idea of a halfling. But - it gives some problems with the feat selection: 1.+3. the summoning feats, then natural spell, CWI, rapid spell, fast wildshape. Is this a good build? Or better forget the summoning feats and add mobility spell casting later and imp. init. to be a 'faster caster' to get rapid spell by 9th level? I always run into that 'extra' feat wall when I make a summoner. Feats tend to help earlier, as opposed to later in the game. Now with the new books of course this has changed a bit. But your feat chains are pretty much locked in at creation. Don't drop the summoning feats if you are building a summoner. Improved Initiative is nice, but you don't have room in your build for it until later. I probably would stick with the same selection (as recommended by others) for levels 1-6 (9 if non-human). At 9th and higher you will have a solid feel to your character and may branch out a bit. Human Druid (summoner) L1 SF: Conj, Augment Summoning L3: Rapid Spell L6: Natural Spell L9: Extra wild shape or Empower Spell or item crafting feat. L12: ? L15: ? If non-human: L1: SF: Conj. L3: Augment Summon L6: Natural Spell L9: Rapid spell. L12: as level 9 human. L15: ? Bottom line you cannot focus on multiple functions and expect to be as good as someone who specialized in one.