Duplicitousness [Archive] - Wizards Community

Duplicitousness [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MichaelAhlf
08-20-07, 10:10 AM To paraphrase Mark Twain: "There's Lies, <bleep> Lies, and Marketing."

From Vlad:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.p...9&postcount=65

"They keep sating that Forgotten Realms is their most popular
setting, having sold the most whatever. That isn't hard to do
considering the absolute vacuum of Greyhawk product. You can't sell
something that doesn't exist. Then we keep hearing how Greyhawk Ruins
is the measuring stick for us, yet they basically sabotaged it just
as it goes on sale. many people who would have bought it will now
just borrow a copy, so I guarantee sales will be poor. Then Wizards
will use the numbers to justify the end of Greyhawks existance. "See?
Nobody bought this". Maybe if you had more than 6 books based on old
mods in the last 20 years....."
Therein, indeed lies the rub. WotC has barely supported Living
Greyhawk, or even the Greyhawk setting, at all.

When 3.0 launched, Greyhawk was supposed to be main setting... then
they changed it to the "default" setting... then they came up with
that Eberron junk and started pushing it like mad.

Eberron's gotten sourcebook after unwanted sourcebook. Forgotten
Realms got a re-release of all sorts of old, moldy source.

Instead of new Greyhawk material, what did we get? Some odd entries
like "In the Greyhawk setting, use X as the home region for this
creature" in a few books, and a Gazetteer very early on. And when
players asked about another Gazetteer to reflect the ongoing changes
in the campaign (the very reflection of canonical changes to the
world made by the Living campaign that Conforti is now lying to us
claiming they'll do with LFR), we were told flat-out no.

For years, LG had to sit back and be content with "converting" things
like the Green Regent / Mark of Heroes / Xen'drink campaign cards
(when they could be used at all). It was only in the past few months
they finally gave their BIGGEST campaign enough respect to put out
cards with the campaign's face on them.

Heidi had a good comment too:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/.../message/95490
And what about the people like me, who started playing less than a
year ago but zealously bought my $30 PHB, the $30 PHBII, my $45
Dragonomicon (for a prestiege class I thought I'd be playing for years
but now will be in play for slightly more than one and will never
finish the prestige class) and $30 for the Monster Manual for the
adventure that I wrote but now will never publish since regions can
only release six mods next year to wrap up the entire storyline and my
mod was not storyline advancing.

That's $135 for two years by the time the campaign ends and a lot of
frustration. Not to mention all the money I've spent printing out mods
to run for conventions, how much I've paid to ATTEND those conventions
(and the work I've put out as a volunteer for a couple of them), etc.

WotC's bean counters look at FR and say "ooh, we sold a lot more
Forgotten Realms source than we did Greyhawk source." Not a big
surprise, there wasn't anything TO sell.

Now, what do they want? They are deliberately and with malice
aforethought trying to kill the sales of Greyhawk Ruins while at the
same moment claiming it is a "test" of the LG and Greyhawk sales
ability.

I call shenanigans. If a circle member or marketroid wants to answer
this question honestly, I'll be waiting.

Tell us why you think we should trust you. Because right now, I don't
have any reason to at all.

Michael Ahlf
Britt
08-20-07, 03:35 PM As I said on the BK list, do not attack people or I will do my best to make sure you get banned permanently. Argue all you want, but do not insult us.
Eric Anondson
08-20-07, 03:39 PM As I said on the BK list, do not attack people or I will do my best to make sure you get banned permanently. Argue all you want, but do not insult us.It appears he has multiple accounts. Mckalf, MichaelAhlf, likely more.
MichaelAhlf
08-20-07, 03:53 PM It appears he has multiple accounts. Mckalf, MichaelAhlf, likely more.

I don't know who "Mckalf" is, but that's not me. I have, and have only had, one account here: this one.
The_Jester
08-20-07, 04:00 PM As it has very, very frequently been pointed on on the various Greyhawk sites, the Greyhawk game products sold almost as well as the Forgotten Realms'. Almost but still close. I don't think WotC or TSR really decided not to push Greyhawk due to poor sales.
The difference is the novel line which was poor for Greyhawk and never got alot of attention while Forgotten Realms burst-ed with best selling books.

The Realms and Greyhawk really can't exist at the same time. They're both generic fantasy settings set in a medieval period; they both fill the same role and setting niche. In 3E they trimmed all the fat and extra campaign settings, both good and bad, keeping one old: the Realms.

And Eberron launched years after 3E, the two were hardly related. And it's done quite well for itself. Just because some people don't like the products doesn't mean they're unwanted. Xen'drik is doing quite well and its players seem quite happy with the new books.

It's not some vast conspiracy.
There's no scheme to keep Greyhawk down.
They're not going to undercut one of their products, even an Expedition book, to make a point to some vocal minority of Message Board fans.

It comes down to 5 things:
1) Novels. Realms sells more.
2) Fandom. Realms fans have always been more accepting of new editions and changes while Greyhawk fans still to this day viciously and mercilessly attack old 2E products for causing a war or altering a land. Praise "From the Ashes" on CannonFire or the Greyhawk board and see what I mean.
3) Copyrights and ownership. Gygax created Greyhawk while the Realms was created by Greenwood. The former doesn't have the best relationship with WotC anymore so if they turned Greyhawk into a major moneymaking hit lawsuits could have started and resentments sprung up.
4) Size. The Realms is just bigger and has more going on. Greyhawk has some fun tension between the human races and the Scarlet Brotherhood and Iuz but that's nothing compared to the Zhentarim, Red Wizards, church of Bane, etc, etc.
5) Drizzt. Let's face it, he probably swung the vote. Elminister and Mordenkein (and Raistlin) cancel each other out but that dark elf mo-fo really makes the difference.
WizO_Brak
08-20-07, 04:23 PM I'm going to close this now. Attacking others is not allowed. Period.

~Brak

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MichaelAhlf 08-20-07, 10:10 AM	To paraphrase Mark Twain: "There's Lies, <bleep> Lies, and Marketing." From Vlad: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.p...9&postcount=65 "They keep sating that Forgotten Realms is their most popular setting, having sold the most whatever. That isn't hard to do considering the absolute vacuum of Greyhawk product. You can't sell something that doesn't exist. Then we keep hearing how Greyhawk Ruins is the measuring stick for us, yet they basically sabotaged it just as it goes on sale. many people who would have bought it will now just borrow a copy, so I guarantee sales will be poor. Then Wizards will use the numbers to justify the end of Greyhawks existance. "See? Nobody bought this". Maybe if you had more than 6 books based on old mods in the last 20 years....." Therein, indeed lies the rub. WotC has barely supported Living Greyhawk, or even the Greyhawk setting, at all. When 3.0 launched, Greyhawk was supposed to be main setting... then they changed it to the "default" setting... then they came up with that Eberron junk and started pushing it like mad. Eberron's gotten sourcebook after unwanted sourcebook. Forgotten Realms got a re-release of all sorts of old, moldy source. Instead of new Greyhawk material, what did we get? Some odd entries like "In the Greyhawk setting, use X as the home region for this creature" in a few books, and a Gazetteer very early on. And when players asked about another Gazetteer to reflect the ongoing changes in the campaign (the very reflection of canonical changes to the world made by the Living campaign that Conforti is now lying to us claiming they'll do with LFR), we were told flat-out no. For years, LG had to sit back and be content with "converting" things like the Green Regent / Mark of Heroes / Xen'drink campaign cards (when they could be used at all). It was only in the past few months they finally gave their BIGGEST campaign enough respect to put out cards with the campaign's face on them. Heidi had a good comment too: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/.../message/95490 And what about the people like me, who started playing less than a year ago but zealously bought my $30 PHB, the $30 PHBII, my $45 Dragonomicon (for a prestiege class I thought I'd be playing for years but now will be in play for slightly more than one and will never finish the prestige class) and $30 for the Monster Manual for the adventure that I wrote but now will never publish since regions can only release six mods next year to wrap up the entire storyline and my mod was not storyline advancing. That's $135 for two years by the time the campaign ends and a lot of frustration. Not to mention all the money I've spent printing out mods to run for conventions, how much I've paid to ATTEND those conventions (and the work I've put out as a volunteer for a couple of them), etc. WotC's bean counters look at FR and say "ooh, we sold a lot more Forgotten Realms source than we did Greyhawk source." Not a big surprise, there wasn't anything TO sell. Now, what do they want? They are deliberately and with malice aforethought trying to kill the sales of Greyhawk Ruins while at the same moment claiming it is a "test" of the LG and Greyhawk sales ability. I call shenanigans. If a circle member or marketroid wants to answer this question honestly, I'll be waiting. Tell us why you think we should trust you. Because right now, I don't have any reason to at all. Michael Ahlf
Britt 08-20-07, 03:35 PM	As I said on the BK list, do not attack people or I will do my best to make sure you get banned permanently. Argue all you want, but do not insult us.
Eric Anondson 08-20-07, 03:39 PM	As I said on the BK list, do not attack people or I will do my best to make sure you get banned permanently. Argue all you want, but do not insult us.It appears he has multiple accounts. Mckalf, MichaelAhlf, likely more.
MichaelAhlf 08-20-07, 03:53 PM	It appears he has multiple accounts. Mckalf, MichaelAhlf, likely more. I don't know who "Mckalf" is, but that's not me. I have, and have only had, one account here: this one.
The_Jester 08-20-07, 04:00 PM	As it has very, very frequently been pointed on on the various Greyhawk sites, the Greyhawk game products sold almost as well as the Forgotten Realms'. Almost but still close. I don't think WotC or TSR really decided not to push Greyhawk due to poor sales. The difference is the novel line which was poor for Greyhawk and never got alot of attention while Forgotten Realms burst-ed with best selling books. The Realms and Greyhawk really can't exist at the same time. They're both generic fantasy settings set in a medieval period; they both fill the same role and setting niche. In 3E they trimmed all the fat and extra campaign settings, both good and bad, keeping one old: the Realms. And Eberron launched years after 3E, the two were hardly related. And it's done quite well for itself. Just because some people don't like the products doesn't mean they're unwanted. Xen'drik is doing quite well and its players seem quite happy with the new books. It's not some vast conspiracy. There's no scheme to keep Greyhawk down. They're not going to undercut one of their products, even an Expedition book, to make a point to some vocal minority of Message Board fans. It comes down to 5 things: 1) Novels. Realms sells more. 2) Fandom. Realms fans have always been more accepting of new editions and changes while Greyhawk fans still to this day viciously and mercilessly attack old 2E products for causing a war or altering a land. Praise "From the Ashes" on CannonFire or the Greyhawk board and see what I mean. 3) Copyrights and ownership. Gygax created Greyhawk while the Realms was created by Greenwood. The former doesn't have the best relationship with WotC anymore so if they turned Greyhawk into a major moneymaking hit lawsuits could have started and resentments sprung up. 4) Size. The Realms is just bigger and has more going on. Greyhawk has some fun tension between the human races and the Scarlet Brotherhood and Iuz but that's nothing compared to the Zhentarim, Red Wizards, church of Bane, etc, etc. 5) Drizzt. Let's face it, he probably swung the vote. Elminister and Mordenkein (and Raistlin) cancel each other out but that dark elf mo-fo really makes the difference.
WizO_Brak 08-20-07, 04:23 PM	I'm going to close this now. Attacking others is not allowed. Period. ~Brak