Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Keldir 05-16-07, 12:47 AM	How can I get duskblade access aside from a special mission?
Dr.Cornelius 05-16-07, 04:42 AM	There have been no reports of Duskblade access aside from a Core Special only run at Gen Con & Gen Con SoCal last year. Even then it was only available to characters that played at APL10+ and therefore is not very useful. Unless you are very tight with a Triad member I don't see you getting access through a special mission. Duskblade is essentially a 20 level prestige class and any other levels are basically wasted. For Duskblade to make any sense you would need to run the SM with a 1st level Fighter and I am not sure any Triad would approve for a 1st level character. It is possible that some region will open up access and when it happens it will be reported on the boards. Note to Triads: Duskblade is better than straight Fighter, but then again what isn't? Compare Duskblade to Cleric, Druid and the stronger PrC and you will find that it is competitive but by no means overpowered.
Simpi 05-16-07, 10:33 AM	Note to Triads: Duskblade is better than straight Fighter, but then again what isn't? Compare Duskblade to Cleric, Druid and the stronger PrC and you will find that it is competitive but by no means overpowered. If it makes one of the PHB core classes even more redundant, isn't that a good reason to limit access to said class? Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
Hariman 05-16-07, 12:04 PM	If it makes one of the PHB core classes even more redundant, isn't that a good reason to limit access to said class? Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad Actually, many of the books that have come out lately have made things better and better for a pure fighter. The only huge mistake was not making the Melee/Ranged Weapon Mastery feats fighter only. On top of that, what doesn't make the fighter more redundant? (Aside from feats and items the fighter can use.) If the fighter is so redundant, then why do people play them? (Feats galore!) Why not give people the option of another class? And doesn't the Knight make the fighter more redundant because of it's class abilities? And what about Beguilers making enchanters/illusionists/sorcerers more redundant? Hariman PS: Just to note, I'm currently on the waiting list for my region's special missions for a duskblade access special mission with a level one Swashbuckler. It might be a while though. I was told that the top of the list had to wait months.
jimmy_dowdall 05-18-07, 04:41 PM	fighters are the most fexible of all classes and featastic, i reckon they hold their own against any other class
Vamroc 05-18-07, 06:26 PM	The class that is most hurt by the Duskblade is the Paladin. No restrictions do to race, class, or alignment, Arcane Channeling at 3rd level. With enough fire power at 5th to potentially kill an 8th level charactor. The option to choose between fighter feats and spellcaster feats is a bonus. The Duskblade abilities are better at first level when compared to a Paladin. While the Paladin says I found evil the Duskblade says I know and thats why I killed it with one hit lets move on. The ultimate nightmare is a Cleric/Duskblade you can deliver cure moderate with a bull whip. Very useful if you can't reach another player to touch him normally.
Hariman 05-18-07, 09:54 PM	The class that is most hurt by the Duskblade is the Paladin. No restrictions do to race, class, or alignment, Arcane Channeling at 3rd level. With enough fire power at 5th to potentially kill an 8th level charactor. The option to choose between fighter feats and spellcaster feats is a bonus. The Duskblade abilities are better at first level when compared to a Paladin. While the Paladin says I found evil the Duskblade says I know and thats why I killed it with one hit lets move on. The ultimate nightmare is a Cleric/Duskblade you can deliver cure moderate with a bull whip. Very useful if you can't reach another player to touch him normally. Keep in mind, at sixth level full BAB classes gain the first iterative attack. A duskblade who channels a spell gives up iterative attacks (Until level 12, or was that 13?) It's the same dilemma with a charger type character. They can't get iterative attacks, so they do more damage on single strikes. And the list of Touch spells that a duskblade gets isn't THAT long. They don't get a huge number of touch spells that they can learn. (So electricity immune enemies are a major problem.) At first level, the duskblade and the paladin should be near equal. Third level is when the duskblade starts to go past the paladin. BUT, if you look at most Gish builds, they're ahead of a pure paladin too. Not to mention that a proper gish is even more powerful than a duskblade thanks to the higher level spells. I'll admit, the Duskblade is powerful. But so are the Gish builds that it is based on.
Keldir 05-19-07, 12:28 AM	If it makes one of the PHB core classes even more redundant, isn't that a good reason to limit access to said class? No. Look at paladins and rangers. You could accomplish much the same thing with a fighter/cleric or a fighter/druid. I won't make this a class balance discussion, because I doubt that logical debate about the pros and cons of the duskblade is going to sway many minds. What I will say is that you need to complete your LGCS. If you don't want people playing or having access to a class, make it closed. Problem solved. Adding it to an AR that is only accessible by level 10 characters doesn't really count as access. Who in their right mind is going to start taking duskblade at 10th level with their character? It makes no sense. A little bit of intellectual honesty would be nice.
King Kashue 05-19-07, 02:35 AM	What I will say is that you need to complete your LGCS. If you don't want people playing or having access to a class, make it closed. Problem solved. And if that's what they wanted, that's what they would have done. That they didn't is a decent reason to believe they merely wanted to limit access, rather than eliminate it...and since that's also what Sampo actually said (rather than how you reframed it), there's not really the logical disconnect you're accusing them of... Adding it to an AR that is only accessible by level 10 characters doesn't really count as access. Who in their right mind is going to start taking duskblade at 10th level with their character? It makes no sense. A little bit of intellectual honesty would be nice. And if that one AR was the only means of accessing the class, then you'd have an extremely valid point... But it's not, so you don't...
Timlagor 05-19-07, 05:16 AM	Who in their right mind is going to start taking duskblade at 10th level with their character? It makes no sense. Someone who wants to pick up a few spells without losing BAB and get a nice save boost into the bargain. It's not a big population but it's not such a crazy thing to do as you're implying (especially at ~level 10 as opposed to ~14). They may also want the Skill list.
Dr.Cornelius 05-20-07, 06:52 PM	fighters are the most fexible of all classes and featastic, i reckon they hold their own against any other classFighter types are popuar since they are straightforward and fun. No doubt that fighters are stronger now than ever due to better feats. And Book of Nine Swords may be a glimpse of a 4.0 future in which fighters are really competitive. It is also widely acknowledged that fighters are stronger than spellcasters at low levels and significantly weaker than spellcasters at high level. By adding a bit of spellcasting to a melee type, the Duskblade remains strong at mid and high levels.
Dr.Cornelius 05-20-07, 07:01 PM	Look at paladins and rangers. You could accomplish much the same thing with a fighter/cleric or a fighter/druid.Right. Clerics and Druids are arguably the strongest and most versatile classes and the straight Paladin pales in comparison to a carefully built battle cleric with the right domains, feats and PrC. Duskblade is arguably stronger than several standard classes and weaker than optimized, full-progression or near full progression spellcasters. I congratulate the developers for taking note of weak, unpopular classes like the Hexblade and making a more competitive class.
Dr.Cornelius 05-20-07, 07:06 PM	And if that one AR was the only means of accessing the class, then you'd have an extremely valid point... But it's not, so you don't...Other than a Special Mission, is there a concrete, non-theoretical way to access Duskblade? If so please let us know. A Pale Special recently opened up Dragon Shaman access, so there may be Duskblade access floating around at a regional level.
Dr.Cornelius 05-20-07, 07:17 PM	With enough fire power at 5th to potentially kill an 8th level charactor. Yes, the Duskblade can do a lot of damage on a single attack, but so can a Raging Shock Trooper or Raging Wildshaped Druid or even the Druid's buffed Pet. Try playing a Duskblade - there are definietly things that straight melee types do better. I think you will find the Duskblade is a strong but not overbalanced class. The ultimate nightmare is a Cleric/Duskblade you can deliver cure moderate with a bull whip. Very useful if you can't reach another player to touch him normally.Have you ever played a Cleric/Duskblade or observed anyone playing one? Dropping three cleric caster levels to get Arcane Channeling and four 1st level spells is highly suboptimal. Divine Ward (PH2 feat, open access) is a much stronger path to casting touch spells at range.
Dr.Cornelius 05-20-07, 07:33 PM	Someone who wants to pick up a few spells without losing BAB and get a nice save boost into the bargain. It's not a big population but it's not such a crazy thing to do as you're implying (especially at ~level 10 as opposed to ~14). They may also want the Skill list.Duskblade dip only makes sense for characters with Int 12+ and no better PrC options. I guess you could make it work by taking Practiced Spellcaster (CArc feat, open) and picking up three levels of Duskblade to get Arcane Channeling for +3d6 channeled Shocking Grasp 5x per day. True Strike and Swift Expeditious Retreat come with the package. Duskblade is essentially a 20 level prestige class. Unlike many classes, there is little advantage to starting a Duskblade with a level of Barbarian or other class and unlike many PrC the strong abilities are spread out. As noted earlier, it takes at least a 3-level dip to get a good return. Duskblade adds a lot of flavor and options to the campaign - I hope The Circle will take the time to playtest and consider opening access for 598.
JamesMaissen 05-20-07, 10:29 PM	It is also widely acknowledged that fighters are stronger than spellcasters at low levels and significantly weaker than spellcasters at high level. I would disagree with this. A fighter takes more work to increase in power compared to how a pure caster ramps up by the virtue of their casting ability, but it can be done. -James
Hariman 05-21-07, 12:46 AM	Right. Clerics and Druids are arguably the strongest and most versatile classes and the straight Paladin pales in comparison to a carefully built battle cleric with the right domains, feats and PrC. Duskblade is arguably stronger than several standard classes and weaker than optimized, full-progression or near full progression spellcasters. I congratulate the developers for taking note of weak, unpopular classes like the Hexblade and making a more competitive class. But a Duskblade isn't so good that it is stupid to NOT take the class. As for Duskblade/Hexblade comparisons? I think the Duskblade is the reaction to complaints that the Hexblade was too weak. (Arguably, the Hexblade should have at least been able to take fighter bonus feats with the hexblade bonus feats, among other things.) If you gave a class the Hexblade class abilities and the Duskblade spell progression, I bet nobody would complain about the Huskblade. And if you adjusted the hexblade spell list a little, moved Arcane Channeling back to level 4 and gave the Duskblade the Hexblade's spell progression, nobody would complain about the Dexblade either. Fighter types are popuar since they are straightforward and fun. No doubt that fighters are stronger now than ever due to better feats. And Book of Nine Swords may be a glimpse of a 4.0 future in which fighters are really competitive. It is also widely acknowledged that fighters are stronger than spellcasters at low levels and significantly weaker than spellcasters at high level. By adding a bit of spellcasting to a melee type, the Duskblade remains strong at mid and high levels. 4.0 Damn 4.0 rumors. All I've seen was an april first "announcement" and conjedture. Anyhoo... The Player's Handbook 2 and Complete Warrior do a great deal for the fighter. One flaw the fighter has is that it is NOT easy to choose 14 (In LG) feats or 18 (to level 20) feats and have all of them work together for a stronger, more versatile fighter. Although, admittedly, when you see a good fighter, it is amazing what they can do in a few rounds. I would disagree with this. A fighter takes more work to increase in power compared to how a pure caster ramps up by the virtue of their casting ability, but it can be done. -James No argument here about that. Equipment access (in LG) can play a big factor. Although getting a number of weapons is much easier now that we have the LGCS 597. Hariman PS: The only confirmed methods of getting access to duskblade that I know of are either a Special Mission or a special/interactive that only ran once, an then only at high levels.
Ralis 05-22-07, 11:14 PM	The ultimate nightmare is a Cleric/Duskblade you can deliver cure moderate with a bull whip. Very useful if you can't reach another player to touch him normally. Thats not correct. With the arcane channeling, it specifically says that it can't be used with spells granted by other classes. My feelings are that Duskblades are a pretty weak class at high levels. When you start to look at they're abilities over level 7. Once you can cast in medium armor (And maybe heavy shield if you stick with it) the advantages of this class go down hill fast. I've been looking at duskblade builds, try to decide if I want to request a Special Mission and honestly I'm not seeing it as worth while. In a non-LG campaign where I started playing as a duskblade, I've now switched and am picking up levels of Marshal.
bitznarf 05-22-07, 11:24 PM	I would disagree with this. A fighter takes more work to increase in power compared to how a pure caster ramps up by the virtue of their casting ability, but it can be done. -James Try it sometime. Pit a full source book fighter type up against a Core only wizard at varying levels (not using the LG ruleset) and see what happens. And bear in mind that in my opinion, Wizards are weaker than Clerics and Druids.
Hariman 05-23-07, 01:48 AM	Try it sometime. Pit a full source book fighter type up against a Core only wizard at varying levels (not using the LG ruleset) and see what happens. And bear in mind that in my opinion, Wizards are weaker than Clerics and Druids. You do realize that PC class VS PC class combat is probably the worst way to judge strength/weakness. Once you reach higher levels it most often comes down to who wins initiative. I'm not arguing that the fighter isn't weaker than a wizard in direct combat, but there are many monsters and situations where the fighter will excel while the wizard runs and hides. The duskblade merely provides the opportunity to play what is normally a multiclass/prestige class build over 20 levels.
JamesMaissen 05-23-07, 01:52 AM	Try it sometime. Pit a full source book fighter type up against a Core only wizard at varying levels (not using the LG ruleset) and see what happens. And bear in mind that in my opinion, Wizards are weaker than Clerics and Druids. Huh? Try what? Fighters can dominate and define combats. It takes a great effort to build one, while for a pure caster one doesn't have to work as hard in the design. -James
bitznarf 05-23-07, 01:58 AM	Huh? Try what? Fighters can dominate and define combats. It takes a great effort to build one, while for a pure caster one doesn't have to work as hard in the design. -James A fighter cannot match a caster in overall power at higher levels with some serious luck, thats what I'm saying, as is Dr.C if I am reading him right. You appeared to be saying that they can, it just takes more work on the build. Try it. See what happens, put a splatbook fighter up against a Core wizard and see what happens at various levels and various starting setups for the fights.
Dr.Cornelius 05-23-07, 04:30 AM	My feelings are that Duskblades are a pretty weak class at high levels. When you start to look at they're abilities over level 7. Once you can cast in medium armor (And maybe heavy shield if you stick with it) the advantages of this class go down hill fast. I've been looking at duskblade builds, try to decide if I want to request a Special Mission and honestly I'm not seeing it as worth while. In a non-LG campaign where I started playing as a duskblade, I've now switched and am picking up levels of Marshal.Stick with Duskblade until at least 9th level when you can pick up Vampiric Touch.
Simpi 05-23-07, 09:58 AM	I think you will find the Duskblade is a strong but not overbalanced class. Actually whenever people say that, warning bells should probably start going off. That's what was said about Marshall as well and on first glance it is not that powerful and I agreed it had place in the campaign. However, what happened was that it became one dip front-loaded class for character optimization. These days I am in "Marshall's should be removed entirely" camp. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
KShaver 05-23-07, 11:03 AM	Actually whenever people say that, warning bells should probably start going off. That's what was said about Marshall as well and on first glance it is not that powerful and I agreed it had place in the campaign. However, what happened was that it became one dip front-loaded class for character optimization. These days I am in "Marshall's should be removed entirely" camp. Agreed, it is a warning sign. Also if you've played XE CoS missions you'll notice that with open access to duckblades that there are 1-3 at any given table. The difference between marshall and duskblade is that the duskblade isn't a 1 dip class. Its not even something most people want to leave for a PrC. Marshall on the other hand is. Of course marshall was printed quite some time ago, where as duskblade is a relatively recent addition. Marshall is something I would have liked to have seen rewritten at some point to make it a little less front loaded (like they did when revising paladins and rangers from 3.0-3.5). Then again I think those dipping marshall for only 1 level are missing out on what the class can really do.
Timlagor 05-23-07, 11:14 AM	I think the prevalence you observe in XE is more due the fact that it's a new and interesting option that is only available in that Faction than to any particular power issue.
JamesMaissen 05-23-07, 02:55 PM	A fighter cannot match a caster in overall power at higher levels with some serious luck, thats what I'm saying, as is Dr.C if I am reading him right. You appeared to be saying that they can, it just takes more work on the build. Try it. See what happens, put a splatbook fighter up against a Core wizard and see what happens at various levels and various starting setups for the fights. I've made fighters and they seem to be able to more than hold their own. As far as 'put one up against' is the part I just don't follow. What do you mean? -James
KShaver 05-23-07, 04:09 PM	I think the prevalence you observe in XE is more due the fact that it's a new and interesting option that is only available in that Faction than to any particular power issue. If that were true then there would be just as many dragon shamans, knights, and beguilers in their respective factions, and, in my experience, this is not the case. In the end I don't care if its overpowered or not. I care if its open or closed. Base classes should be open or closed, not NONC.
ThaiGQ 05-23-07, 06:16 PM	Actually whenever people say that, warning bells should probably start going off. That's what was said about Marshall as well and on first glance it is not that powerful and I agreed it had place in the campaign. However, what happened was that it became one dip front-loaded class for character optimization. These days I am in "Marshall's should be removed entirely" camp. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad Actually, I rather like the flavor of the Marshall class. I agree, it is a bit front-loaded, but the idea of being able to act like sergeant or other "commanding" field officer on the battlefield is a cool idea...especially for characters that belong to a military meta-orga. :D
Timlagor 05-23-07, 08:17 PM	Well ok.. but anyone playing a Duskblade in XE because they think it's powerful really isn't very effective as a power gamer.
Hariman 05-24-07, 12:07 AM	Well ok.. but anyone playing a Duskblade in XE because they think it's powerful really isn't very effective as a power gamer. Unless they powergame to MAKE it effective. James: "Put one up against" is meant in the Player VS Player sense. IE: Pit Fighter Vs Wizard, Pit Duskblade Vs Fighter, etc. It's a bad judge of which class is better because of how much the build you use can determine the power level of a class. Also, at higher levels the main deciding factor is often who wins initiative. Plus, PCs are intended to be used against a variety of encounters, not just against each other.
Keldir 05-24-07, 12:21 AM	I fail to see what offhand comments regarding the marshall have to do with the duskblade class. Duskblades can do a lot of damage. So can a greatsword wielding power attacking barbarian. Barbarians have more skills, and suffer less from multiple attribute deficiency. He can power attack as much as he wants, while I'm limited with spells per day as a duskblade. My bladesinger type character spent time provoking attacks of opportunity and burning images off his mirror image spell while an occult slayer and a barbarian 2h power attacked a huge elemental to death in one of the recent adventures I played in. Duskblade spells, for the most part, don't provide a lot of utility. The arcane channeling only affects touch spells, of which there are only like 4 in the whole spell list. I don't understand why something isn't either open, or closed. If it is too powerful to be in the regular campaign, by all means, please close it. If it isn't too powerful, and actually fits in the campaign somewhere as duskblade does, add it in. This non-open non-closed thing is stupid and just makes for a bad experience. The players ask for special missions, and the circle argues about whether or not to allow stuff in. The LGCS is there for a reason, make it open or make it closed already.
Hariman 05-25-07, 01:16 AM	This non-open non-closed thing is stupid and just makes for a bad experience. The players ask for special missions, and the circle argues about whether or not to allow stuff in. The LGCS is there for a reason, make it open or make it closed already. But it's not always that easy. Some options, like the duskblade, divide circle/triad/player opinions to both extremes. (Open or closed, broken or balanced.) Options like these are sometimes impossible to immediately put into a power level category. Controversial options are also often judged on player/DM reaction in play. Other options, I have heard, are chosen as open or closed based on player demand. IE: Enough requests for special missions will open a class because of player demand. Duskblade is controversial. It can easily be argued as balanced or broken, and both arguments have merit. It's good enough to be able to do compare to stronger classes, but not so good that everybody will take it. Compare the Duskblade to the Abjurant Champion. The Duskblade is good, no doubt. It's got it's strong points and it's weak points. The Abjurant Champion is BEYOND good. It offers so much for so little, that ALL casters would take levels in it, simply for the increased HP, saves, and class abilities. Even non-casters would be fool to pass the Abjurant Champion up, because the benefits of the AJ are far greater than the cost. And nobody can dispute that. NONC also allows the Circle/Triads to spend more time on running LG over time spent poring over rulebooks and ruling on the many thousands of spells, feats, PrCs, Skill Tricks, etc. But yeah, I wanted to start my duskblade off at first level too. It sucks that my duskblade, if he survives his special mission for access, will have a level of swashbuckler. But it'll be cool to have a weapon finessing Duskblade.
JamesMaissen 05-25-07, 01:53 AM	NONC also allows the Circle/Triads to spend more time on running LG over time spent poring over rulebooks and ruling on the many thousands of spells, feats, PrCs, Skill Tricks, etc. NONC is a horrid place to put things that MIGHT be broken. This is because access WILL get out. But not ubiquitous enough to make a splash that the Circle will see and need to act upon. It would be better that these items either be Closed 'pending review' or simply Open. The former would be safe and make sure that an item doesn't get in during any crunch time period or the like under the radar. The later would be safer than NONC because if it truely is broken then with the whole campaign focusing upon it then it won't have a place to hide and will become clear to one and all. However if access is small, sporadic and not all that visible then it will persist for quite some time before its clear that it is broken and time before it merits removal. -James
King Kashue 05-25-07, 02:00 AM	NONC is a horrid place to put things that MIGHT be broken. This is because access WILL get out. But not ubiquitous enough to make a splash that the Circle will see and need to act upon. How's it going to "get out"? It can only be given out on ARs...ARs for adventures that are approved by circle reps for each region. It's not like the triads are conducting a black market for NONC items :D
KShaver 05-25-07, 08:18 AM	It's not like the triads are conducting a black market for NONC items. So thats what they're calling special missions nowadays.
Hariman 05-25-07, 08:59 PM	So thats what they're calling special missions nowadays. I asked one of the two people in charge of special missions here in Keoland what was available via special mission. Part of his response was: You cannot get item access via special mission. I will not write special missions for item access.
thorinXXX 05-28-07, 12:23 PM	If it makes one of the PHB core classes even more redundant, isn't that a good reason to limit access to said class? Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad It is a very good reason. Unfortunately it did not stop the circle from allowing Beguiler.
bitznarf 05-28-07, 12:53 PM	If it makes one of the PHB core classes even more redundant, isn't that a good reason to limit access to said class? Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad It is a very good reason. Unfortunately it did not stop the circle from allowing Beguiler. Just because something is in the PHB doesn't give it any more right to be in the campaign than something from a splat book in my opinion. There may be reasons to limit access, but in my opinion 'making a PHB base class more redundant' is not one of them. Some classes just aren't very good, that's just the way things go. I still have no idea why the Beguiler has trapfinding though.
JamesMaissen 05-28-07, 07:09 PM	How's it going to "get out"? It can only be given out on ARs...ARs for adventures that are approved by circle reps for each region. By the rules you can't have a potion of a personal spell. How many potions have you seen on ARs that violate this? I've seen plenty from various regions. Note that in the LGCS they mention a potion of shield, which isn't legal, as it needed to be banned from the campaign. How many errors have you seen on ARs? The AR makes a horrible line of defense in this regard. The chaos and pressure as the deadline for the premiere date are not conducive to avoiding such errors. Do the circle even have a list of what's been given access to in the campaign over all the years? I'm doubting it even exists as a cohesive list. Limited/NONC is a horrible place for the catch all category for un-vetted material. -James
King Kashue 05-29-07, 01:08 AM	By the rules you can't have a potion of a personal spell. How many potions have you seen on ARs that violate this? I've seen plenty from various regions. Note that in the LGCS they mention a potion of shield, which isn't legal, as it needed to be banned from the campaign. How many errors have you seen on ARs? The AR makes a horrible line of defense in this regard. The chaos and pressure as the deadline for the premiere date are not conducive to avoiding such errors. That's not a valid analogy. The no potions of personal spells issue is a rules issue and a matter of fact checking and editing, and whether a particular person knows that rule and catches the error. It happens because someone doesn't know that rule and/or they don't realize that the spell has a range of personal. Access to Duskblade is not a matter of such an error, it would require a favor granting access, and it's not as if the favor is going to slip through with the Circle rep thinking that the favor is actually granting access to some other PrC. The access would be in the favor section, and it would be explicit. The only way it would get through is if it was let through...it's not going to "slip through"...
Hariman 05-29-07, 09:36 PM	Just because something is in the PHB doesn't give it any more right to be in the campaign than something from a splat book in my opinion. There may be reasons to limit access, but in my opinion 'making a PHB base class more redundant' is not one of them. Some classes just aren't very good, that's just the way things go. I still have no idea why the Beguiler has trapfinding though. Beguilers have trapfinding partly because the character archetype of "Enchanter or Illusionist/Arcane Trickster" would have it. Also, a Beguiler is horribly likely to replace the rogue of a party, thus trapfinding is necessary for survival. AND it fits the party "Skillmonkey/Caster" role that the Beguiler is made for. On the other side of thing? Because the Lurk is intended for combat more than the skillmonkey position. I pretty much agree on the redundancy issue. Every splat book makes core more redundant as it provides now ways of doing damage and getting good skill check results. Knights make paladins more redundant. Scouts make rogues and rangers a little more redundant. Radiant Servant of "x" makes a pure cleric more redundant. I just wish that Duskblades weren't NONC. They're best off played from level one to 20 (Or 15, for LG).
bitznarf 05-29-07, 09:45 PM	Beguilers have trapfinding partly because the character archetype of "Enchanter or Illusionist/Arcane Trickster" would have it. Also, a Beguiler is horribly likely to replace the rogue of a party, thus trapfinding is necessary for survival. AND it fits the party "Skillmonkey/Caster" role that the Beguiler is made for. I see it as working the other way around: Beguilers are horribly likely to replace the rouge *because* they have trapfinding and the relevant skills. Having trapfinding is the cause of this, not the effect. Take out the trappfinding skills (search, open lock, disable device) and you are left with most of the bard skill list (if I recall correctly). Even the type of spells that a Beguiler can cast are similar to those of a Bard. For the 'Radiant Servant' issue you seem to have; have you ever looked at a sorcerer? If you believe that Radiant Servant makes straight Cleric redundant (a point I would argue against) then virtually every arcane PrC available to a sorcerer (Fatespinner most notably) make straight sorcerer redundant. You may believe that Knight makes Paladin redundant, I look at them as complementary classes rather than competing ones; at least when designing a lawful good character, the two classes dovetail very nicely. Scout vs. Rogue.. each have their own benefits and their own drawbacks, I don't think either one is clearly superior. In some builds Scout is better (most Dervish builds) and in others (TWF builds) Rogue will generally do better.
Evanta 05-29-07, 10:05 PM	I see it as working the other way around: Beguilers are horribly likely to replace the rouge *because* they have trapfinding and the relevant skills. Having trapfinding is the cause of this, not the effect. Take out the trappfinding skills (search, open lock, disable device) and you are left with most of the bard skill list (if I recall correctly). Even the type of spells that a Beguiler can cast are similar to those of a Bard. I dun see it as replacing the rogue, rather it gives people more options for playing a skill monkey.
bitznarf 05-29-07, 10:22 PM	Well, that too Evanta, really the two classes overlap only in their skill lists and trapfinding.
Hariman 05-31-07, 12:16 PM	I see it as working the other way around: Beguilers are horribly likely to replace the rouge *because* they have trapfinding and the relevant skills. Having trapfinding is the cause of this, not the effect. Take out the trappfinding skills (search, open lock, disable device) and you are left with most of the bard skill list (if I recall correctly). Even the type of spells that a Beguiler can cast are similar to those of a Bard. For the 'Radiant Servant' issue you seem to have; have you ever looked at a sorcerer? If you believe that Radiant Servant makes straight Cleric redundant (a point I would argue against) then virtually every arcane PrC available to a sorcerer (Fatespinner most notably) make straight sorcerer redundant. You may believe that Knight makes Paladin redundant, I look at them as complementary classes rather than competing ones; at least when designing a lawful good character, the two classes dovetail very nicely. Scout vs. Rogue.. each have their own benefits and their own drawbacks, I don't think either one is clearly superior. In some builds Scout is better (most Dervish builds) and in others (TWF builds) Rogue will generally do better. Beguilers/trapfinding is a chicken or egg argument. We'd have to ask the designers to know why they gave them trapfinding. As for Knight/Paladin, Scout/Rogue and Sorcerers/all casting PRCs? I really don't believe that new classes make older ones redundant. (Except Unseen Seer making Arcane Trickster partially redundant. Unless you two level dip into US to get into AT faster. Then it makes AT more relevant.) New classes provide new options for play. They don't negate the old options. Duskblade provides a simpler, level one to level twenty option that can be chosen over the regular prestige class gish builds. But people still play fighters because they want a feat heavy character.