Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Necrochaos 09-21-06, 07:47 AM	So I stole this from Mommy was an Orc, but I want to tweek it some. Dwarf Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Deepwarden(RoS) 6/Exotic Weapon Master 1/Pious Templar 4 Str 18, Dex 8, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 6 1: Ranger 1 - Track: Power Attack 2: Fighter 1 - WF: Dwarven Waraxe 3: Fighter 2 - Improved Bullrush, True Believer 4: Ranger 2 - Rapid Shot: Str 19 5: Ranger 3 - Endurance 6: Deepwarden 1 - Shock Trooper 7: Deepwarden 2 8: Exotic Weapon Master 1: Uncanny Blow: Str 20 9: Pious Templar(Gendwar Argrim) 1: Brutal Throw 10: Pious Templar 2 11: Pious Templar 3: WS: Dwarven Waraxe 12: Pious Templar 4: Improved Sunder, Combat Brute: Str 21 13: Deepwarden 3 14: Deepwarden 4 15: Deepwarden 5: ? 16: Deepwarden 6: Str 22 I want to get rid of Pious Templar. I won't be using the spells, just getting it for the saves and mettle. I should probably remove the ranger levels and replace them with barbarian. I need help figuring out how to do a lot of damage and still have decent ac. Push come to shove, I'll get rid of the ac and abuse the high con and just do damage. Any ideas how I should rework this build? I really like the deepwarden in there.
trollbill 09-21-06, 09:49 AM	If you want to get rid of Pious Templer, get rid of Pious Templer. I realize this is one of those classes that almost all fighters dip into to maximize their build, but does it really make sense for the character concept? I've got nothing against min/maxing and build optimizing, I do it all the time myself, but it can really be taken too far. And when I start seeing almost every BDF build with levels in Pious Templer, I have to think that maybe that's the case. LG is a bit deadly, but not so much you have to have a totally optimized character. A basic solid build is all that is necessary. Just take 2 more levels of fighter to get the WS. As far as the AC goes, you are already starting with a deficite with an 8 Dex. Being a dwarf with a low dex means the best way to get AC is with heavy armor. But if you do that, you will lose use of your Rapid Shot from the Ranger class. An animated shield is probably your best bet.
Lomiat 09-21-06, 09:52 AM	If you're going to steal a character build from MWaO, you ought to at least figure out how everything fits together before you tear it apart. Deepwarden solves much of your AC problems, letting you replace CON for DEX in the AC formula. To get Deepwarden, you need some of the stuff the Ranger levels give you.
Necrochaos 09-21-06, 11:06 AM	If you're going to steal a character build from MWaO, you ought to at least figure out how everything fits together before you tear it apart. Deepwarden solves much of your AC problems, letting you replace CON for DEX in the AC formula. To get Deepwarden, you need some of the stuff the Ranger levels give you. I'm not very goot at making a character Lomiat, but flaming me on the boards doesn't help much either. I've tried looking through the classes to find things out on my own, but I'm terrible at it. I apologize if this sounds rude. I tried to dissect this character, but I missed somethings. I apologize for not being on top of this. I'm just looking to see if there is something else other than pious templar that would be better for this character. I'm not taking advantage of this prestiage class as much as I could.
zoinks69 09-21-06, 12:51 PM	Nothing wrong with this build. A couple of tweaks if you want to dish *melee* (emphasis just to be clear that ranged isn't your cup of tea) damage and have high AC. You get the free Ranger specialization, but personally I wouldn't bother using any feats to improve either ranged or TWF. Deep Warden is a great way to get a Will save as well as keep a good AC while dishing damage. You need/want the 3 levels of Ranger -- Endurance for free and lots of skill points with a lousy Int. The fighter levels are for feats. And this build gets you to the "meat" of Deep Warden as quickly as possible. Variations I'd suggest if you want to concentrate on melee damage and AC: First, I'd swap the WF and Power Attack. You're going to cut everything in Intro mods in half with your 1d10, 18 str, 2handed anyway, so any bump to guarantee a hit is a little better (imo). I'd slip in Barbarian 1 for one of the fighter levels (you can also just add it and push the other levels back one) and taking Extra Rage. This allows you to eventually Rage with no penalty to AC (depending on armor) -2 from rage but +2 from new Con (actually you'll end up with an AC bump since your dex is so poor -- this is awesome). Consider Reckless Rage as well. This means either delaying or dropping either Shock Trooper or Combat Brute. I haven't seen Shock Trooper in action. Both seem somewhat limited in application, but either is nice if used properly. The Pious Templar levels aren't there for spell casting -- 10 Wis prevents it (Wis bumps take up neck slot normally and you'll want a Con amulet there). They do give you more Will saves and Mettle, so 2 levels at least, if you can help it :) One nice thing -- if you take a second level of Barbarian for Uncanny Dodge, then level 4 of Deep Warden gives you Improved Uncanny. Level 5 also lets you reroll a blown enchantment save a round later. So I stole this from Mommy was an Orc, but I want to tweek it some. Dwarf Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Deepwarden(RoS) 6/Exotic Weapon Master 1/Pious Templar 4 Str 18, Dex 8, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 6 1: Ranger 1 - Track: Power Attack 2: Fighter 1 - WF: Dwarven Waraxe 3: Fighter 2 - Improved Bullrush, True Believer 4: Ranger 2 - Rapid Shot: Str 19 5: Ranger 3 - Endurance 6: Deepwarden 1 - Shock Trooper 7: Deepwarden 2 8: Exotic Weapon Master 1: Uncanny Blow: Str 20 9: Pious Templar(Gendwar Argrim) 1: Brutal Throw 10: Pious Templar 2 11: Pious Templar 3: WS: Dwarven Waraxe 12: Pious Templar 4: Improved Sunder, Combat Brute: Str 21 13: Deepwarden 3 14: Deepwarden 4 15: Deepwarden 5: ? 16: Deepwarden 6: Str 22
Lomiat 09-21-06, 03:05 PM	I'm not very goot at making a character Lomiat, but flaming me on the boards doesn't help much either. I've tried looking through the classes to find things out on my own, but I'm terrible at it. I apologize if this sounds rude. I tried to dissect this character, but I missed somethings. I apologize for not being on top of this. I'm just looking to see if there is something else other than pious templar that would be better for this character. I'm not taking advantage of this prestiage class as much as I could. I didn't mean it as a flame. I probably should have used the word "take" instead of "steal." At either rate, Mommy posts his character builds to be taken/stolen, so that's no big deal. However, he tends to create some fairly complicated character builds that require a reasonably advanced understanding of how the different abilities from 3 or 4 classes and synergies of 5 or 6 different feats come together by 6th or 8th level to form an optimized character. The builds are, of course, generally quite solid, but not necessarily so much more efficient than a simpler build that you'll be better served by recreating a build you don't wholly understand than by starting with a solid base and adding to it as you go. I know there are many players on these boards who advise you to plan your character builds from levels 1 through 15 before you start choosing attributes, but in LG, these builds often end up being rough maps anyway, as various options open to your characters that you might wish to stray from the original plan. Thus, it's my opinion that you can be just as well served by starting out with something simple and, seeing how it works, decide to complement the build as you go. For example, the simplest way to head toward a high-AC fighter is to plan to take full plate, shield and Combat Expertise. This means you'll need at least a 13 INT by the time you want the feat. It also means that if you take the feat early, you'll open up the whole Combat Expertise feat tree. As you continue to play, you might decide that you want to pursue some of those options (esp. Improved Trip or Improved Disarm). Maybe not. If so, Combat Expertise is still a great feat for a front-line fighter. By contrast, MWaO's builds tend to front-load a lot of feats that aren't so useful early on. They have use, but it's more limited. Improved Bullrush and True Believer are two examples in the build you've put forward for discussion. They're both included primarily to set up later options. If you chose, you could, instead, replace them with better feats, but that would mean that you'd give up Shock Trooper and Pious Templar later on. In the meantime, the simplest ways to get a better will save are: 1) increase your WIS, 2) take the Iron Will feat, and 3) take classes that offer good will saves. There aren't many for straight fighters, but I know Hexblade and Occult Slayer are two good options. That said, if you want a frontliner with a decent will save who can still do damage, I'd recommend that you look into the Fighter/Hexblade/Exotic Weapon Master/Occult Slayer build. It makes good use of Weapon Focus (dwarven waraxe), setting you up for Weapon Specialization, Exotic Weapon Master, and Occult Slayer all with the same feat--a feat which is always useful on its own.
Necrochaos 09-21-06, 09:03 PM	I think I figured out what I wanted. First I apologize to Lomiat. I took your remark the wrong way. I'm terrible at builds. I'm not good at min/maxing, so I look for help from you guys on the boards. I like having a 1-15 build as a guide. If I get access to another prestige class or feat that isn't on the progression, I'll try to fit it in. So I want to get rid of the Pious Templar part of the build. It doesn't work with my character background. His brother (played by a PC) is a cleric of Moradin, Clan Rockhall (in Verbobonc). I can't worship a lesser dwarven god in his eyes. So let's forget Pious Templar, I don't need the saves. I really like the Deepwarden class. I want to stick with that. I want to keep the Ranger, and the Fighter. I think throwing in Barbarian would be a great touch for the character as well. The rage abilities would be awesome. The super high AC I don't really need. He will buff me the first couple rounds away. I just want a decent AC. So how do I retool this build? Just take out the Pious Templar and substitute in the Barbarian? Throw in Extra Rage and Recklace Rage? I also think zoinks69 is right about the Power Attack moving to 2nd level. I'm not too worried about combat brute or shock trooper. Combat Brute might be worth it for Momentum Swing, but I'm not sure. So maybe you guys can help me tweak this to where I want to go. He's a crazy battle loving dwarf. His brother protects him. His cleric is all fleshed out to buff and heal, I just need to figure mine out. Lots of damage, high HP, decent AC with the Mithril Breastplate. I'd love to have some assistance.
JamesMaissen 09-21-06, 11:06 PM	Okay, let's start from the ground up and see what we like about everything. Many times people confuse a PrC's cool sounding name with a cool PrC, etc. I'm not saying this is the case, but let's build everything up slowly. Your last post was great in giving some motivations and goals for the character that you desire. Let's look at your stats: Str 18, Dex 8, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 6 This seems a bit extreme. Paying for an 18 is rough and you loose in dimensionality elsewhere. Perhaps that's perfect, but that depends upon you. Do you see the character as heavily armored or barely armored at all? Deepwarden lends itself more to the later than the former, and it may not fit what many people have in mind for a dwarf tank. It's a great class, but maybe it's not what you are looking for here, or maybe it is. Start telling us some more about what you want this character to look and feel like. What should he be able to deliver to the table and where can he fail at? You might decide to, for example, increase your INT and have alot of skills. Both Ranger and Deepwarden are great along those levels. There's lots to do and a plethora of options which is what makes the game great. Just enumerate your thoughts and see how to achieve them. Lastly I applaud you for atleast trying to plan your character out. It doesn't matter if your plan changes a dozen times in as many levels, this way you won't wind up 8th level or so and have no clue what you can do or where to go from there. -James Maissen
Lomiat 09-22-06, 12:42 AM	Slightly off-topic here, but it's interesting how, despite the fact that the PHB description of dwarves states that they tend to be lawful, 90% of the dwarves I've seen in LG have taken barbarian levels at one point. That aside, if you want to make a high-damage, high-hp character, there's no better first level than barbarian. You get the d12 hit die and 4 + INT skill points. A ranger level would get you an extra 2 x 4 skill points, but you'd lose 4 hps. I would take the barbarian level. The next thing to consider (if we're in accord at this point) is whether or not you want to balance your attributes enough to leave your options open for various feat trees. Will you take an INT high enough for Combat Expertise? Will you take one that's close and that you can later boost to get Combat Expertise? Or just toss it out the window and go sheer brute strength and swing for the fences? If you're inclined to go with the third option and discard Combat Expertise, this means your AC options will come primarily from armor (and, possibly, shield). You're best off using a two-handed weapon to make best use of the strength bonus you're likely to have. And, in the meantime, you might not want to head for Deepwarden. One, you have to wait until 7th level (I think) to get your CON to AC. That's 6 levels of having a -1 DEX modifier to AC. Two, you could discard the ranger levels in favor of more barbarian or fighter levels. Other than the the skill points, the ranger levels won't really offer a straight fighter more than the other levels. You'll lose hps, and someone might expect you to start carrying a happy stick and healing their wounds one d8+1 at a time. Crazy dwarf looking to smash things seems to me like a good character to start at level 1 as a barbarian, perhaps take a second barbarian level at 2 for uncanny dodge, then (or instead of 2nd barb) switch to fighter for the feats, and perhaps stick with fighter until you figure out what you want to do.
zoinks69 09-22-06, 05:48 AM	That aside, if you want to make a high-damage, high-hp character, there's no better first level than barbarian. You get the d12 hit die and 4 + INT skill points. A ranger level would get you an extra 2 x 4 skill points, but you'd lose 4 hps. I would take the barbarian level. Bear in mind that Deep Warden is somewhat heavy on skill requirements - 5 ranks of Climb, Heal, Jump, Dungeoneering, Survival. Climb and Jump are Fighter skills (and just about any melee class, I think), so no rush for those. Survival is a Barbarian skill, so it can be bumped when those levels are taken (depending how many). Heal and Dungeoneering are skills that are cross-class for Barbarian, but class skills for Ranger. It's naturally still possible to get all the skills eventually, though you are pretty much going to eliminate any variation in skill selection until later on in the build. In the end, it's still your PC, Necrochaos :) The rest of us only have our own experiences (and sometimes 'experimental ideas') to go on, so it's going to ultimately be best to do what you feel gives you the most satisfaction. One last idea -- Barbarian 15 is a tough road, but it does get really good at the end (and a quick addendum -- Expertise is nice to crank the AC, just remember you can't use it AND rage at the same time).
Mommy was an Orc 09-22-06, 01:54 PM	I'd do something like this to rework the build: Dwarf Str 16, Dex 8, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 6 1: Barbarian 1 - Power Attack 2: Fighter 1 - WF: Dwarven Waraxe 3: Ranger 1 - Extra Rage 4: Ranger 2 - TWF: Str 19 5: Ranger 3 - Endurance 6: Deepwarden 1 - (feat needed to qualify for additional PrCs) 7: Deepwarden 2 8: Exotic Weapon Master 1: Uncanny Blow: Str 20 9: Fighter 2: Improved Bullrush, Shock Trooper The rest of the build depends on what PrC you want to go for. I think that Occult Slayer has some very problematic text in the rules section for you, even if we just ignore the flavor text.
Drezden 09-22-06, 03:52 PM	I would defintely add Barbarian 2 to this build - Uncanny Dodge is very good. I would also drop the Improved Bullrush and Shock Trooper. IMO, charging for 1 attack is generally not worth the full attack back. Sure, it might have some situational uses - but it is not worth the 2 feats you have to take. I would rather take Cleave, Improved Toughness (More HPs, the better), Heavy Armor Optimization, Quick Draw or anything else that fits into your "vision" of your character. Daren I'd do something like this to rework the build: Dwarf Str 16, Dex 8, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 6 1: Barbarian 1 - Power Attack 2: Fighter 1 - WF: Dwarven Waraxe 3: Ranger 1 - Extra Rage 4: Ranger 2 - TWF: Str 19 5: Ranger 3 - Endurance 6: Deepwarden 1 - (feat needed to qualify for additional PrCs) 7: Deepwarden 2 8: Exotic Weapon Master 1: Uncanny Blow: Str 20 9: Fighter 2: Improved Bullrush, Shock Trooper The rest of the build depends on what PrC you want to go for. I think that Occult Slayer has some very problematic text in the rules section for you, even if we just ignore the flavor text.
Mommy was an Orc 09-22-06, 04:18 PM	I would defintely add Barbarian 2 to this build - Uncanny Dodge is very good. Deepwarden gets it with Deepwarden 4, though Improved Uncanny certainly has its advantages. I would also drop the Improved Bullrush and Shock Trooper. IMO, charging for 1 attack is generally not worth the full attack back. Sure, it might have some situational uses - but it is not worth the 2 feats you have to take. Shock Trooper is very situational, but you're not always charging someone who can full attack you back. And unlike a lot of Barbarian builds, this guy should have a really good AC, even when Raging.
Necrochaos 09-22-06, 07:05 PM	I'd like to do some serious damage. I do love the Deepwarden class and think it coudl be really fun. I was looking at this, I think I can get it all the skills needed: Dwarf Ranger 2/Barbarian 2/Fighter 5/Deepwarden(RoS) 6/Exotic Weapon Master 1 Str 18, Dex 8, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 6 1: Barbarian 1 - WF: Dwarven Waraxe 2: Fighter 1 - Power Attack 3: Ranger 1 - Endurance 4: Ranger 2 - Rapid Shot: Str 19 5: Barbarian 2 - 6: Deepwarden 1 – Extra Rage 7: Deepwarden 2 8: Exotic Weapon Master 1: Uncanny Blow: Str 20 9: Fighter 2: Brutal Throw 10: Fighter 3: 11: Fighter 4: WS: Dwarven Waraxe, Reckless Rage 12: Fighter 5: ??? Str 21 13: Deepwarden 3 14: Deepwarden 4 15: Deepwarden 5: ? 16: Deepwarden 6: Str 22 My AC should be ok, to be backed up with lots of HP from my CON. In reality, I'd like to do a lot of damage and try to abuse my high con as well. If I could work in a PrC that does some other damage that would be great. I don't want any cleric levels or anything like that. I don't have a pure damage characters. I have a Marshall/Paladin (really just a support character, his stats ar every spread out, just an RP character) an Archer, Wizard, Cleric. I want to be a damage beast, but I don't want to be a crazy barbarian with a 13 AC. He's a crazy dwarf with a cleric brother to keep him in line and alive. He's a dwarven fanatic. He'd look at an elf and call him a pansy for using that thin sword. I'm willing to give up the Deepwarden if I can find another alternative. I just saw MWaO's post on this character and really loved the idea. Just wanted to get rage in there as it fits the character quite well. Lastly, I'm not really into the bullrush/shock trooper thing. He will charge the first round to get into battle, then just wades into the defenders, knowing he's tougher than they are.
Namarus 09-22-06, 07:13 PM	I'd like to do some serious damage. I do love the Deepwarden class and think it coudl be really fun. I was looking at this, I think I can get it all the skills needed: Dwarf Ranger 2/Barbarian 2/Fighter 5/Deepwarden(RoS) 6/Exotic Weapon Master 1 Str 18, Dex 8, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 6 1: Barbarian 1 - WF: Dwarven Waraxe 2: Fighter 1 - Power Attack 3: Ranger 1 - Endurance 4: Ranger 2 - Rapid Shot: Str 19 5: Barbarian 2 - 6: Deepwarden 1 – Extra Rage 7: Deepwarden 2 8: Exotic Weapon Master 1: Uncanny Blow: Str 20 9: Fighter 2: Brutal Throw 10: Fighter 3: 11: Fighter 4: WS: Dwarven Waraxe, Reckless Rage 12: Fighter 5: ??? Str 21 13: Deepwarden 3 14: Deepwarden 4 15: Deepwarden 5: ? 16: Deepwarden 6: Str 22 My AC should be ok, to be backed up with lots of HP from my CON. In reality, I'd like to do a lot of damage and try to abuse my high con as well. If I could work in a PrC that does some other damage that would be great. I don't want any cleric levels or anything like that. I don't have a pure damage characters. I have a Marshall/Paladin (really just a support character, his stats ar every spread out, just an RP character) an Archer, Wizard, Cleric. I want to be a damage beast, but I don't want to be a crazy barbarian with a 13 AC. He's a crazy dwarf with a cleric brother to keep him in line and alive. He's a dwarven fanatic. He'd look at an elf and call him a pansy for using that thin sword. I'm willing to give up the Deepwarden if I can find another alternative. I just saw MWaO's post on this character and really loved the idea. Just wanted to get rage in there as it fits the character quite well. Lastly, I'm not really into the bullrush/shock trooper thing. He will charge the first round to get into battle, then just wades into the defenders, knowing he's tougher than they are. It's totally pointless to go to fighter level 5. Drop that and take Ranger 3, get endurance for free, and that will give you an extra feat to play with.
Drezden 09-22-06, 11:57 PM	Absolutely take Ranger 3 for free Endurance. Then switch Extra Rage to 3rd level and Reckless Rage to 6th - FYI Reckless Rage is NOT a fighter bonus feat, so you have to move it around in your current build anyway. Also, while I like Reckless Rage - it is not the feat to take if you actually want to maintain some AC - that extra -2 really hurts. One more thing - be careful about "charging into battle ... knowing he is tougher ..." At high APLs this is a recipe for a quick death (at least with some of the melee beasts you encounter). You are almost always better off letting the enemy come to you and trade their 1 attack for your full attack. Finally, the Deepwarden armor trick also make Enlarge Person that much better. Now you only lose 1 AC (size) for Enlarge Person rather than the normal 2, since Dex isn't powering your AC. This is very, very good, since Enarge is so good for melee characters, especially at high APLs where most monsters have reach. Daren
Lomiat 09-23-06, 12:43 AM	It's also worth looking at taking Two-weapon Fighting instead of Rapid Shot. If you find a chance to take Improved Shield Bash, you gain an attack with a shield as your off-hand attack and retain the shield bonus to AC. Also, there's a very nice feat tree for Shield Bash that I've rarely seen used.
Iswald 09-23-06, 03:09 AM	It's totally pointless to go to fighter level 5. Drop that and take Ranger 3, get endurance for free, and that will give you an extra feat to play with. Ranger 3 will give an xp penalty, which could be good or bad depending on your goals.
Drezden 09-23-06, 10:36 AM	Umm, no, it won't. Fighter is favored class, so it doesn't count. Prestige classes don't count. So we are left with Ranger 3 and Barbarian 2; they are within 1 level of each other - no XP penalty. Daren Ranger 3 will give an xp penalty, which could be good or bad depending on your goals.
chesspiece 09-23-06, 10:55 AM	I agree with taking Rgr3 instead of the first Ftr level. Do it after Bbn2 so no XP penalty. That gets you free Endurance but you lose your early Power Attack. I also recommend Extra Rage at 3rd. But I'd pick up Power Attack at 6th and Reckless Rage at 9th. I'm not sure Brutal Throw is worthwile for you - a bow gives you more attacks & better range anyways. I agree that 2WF is better for Rgr2 - but I'm thinking of armor spikes on your mithral breastplate / chain shirt. Or you could do Bbn/Rgr2/Ftr/Rgr if you want to cram more feats into the early levels (xp penalty until you get your next Bbn level ~9th). Another P-Class for your consideration is Dark Hunter (CW). Full BAB with a sneak attack (for fighting down & dirty). Adding the Staggering Strike (CV) feat makes it nasty.
Iswald 09-23-06, 10:50 PM	Umm, no, it won't. My mistake, thought there was only one level of barbarian.
Necrochaos 09-24-06, 09:12 AM	Is Exotic Weapon Master worth it for the Uncanny Blow? What about adding Occult Slayer to the build? Str 16, Dex 8, Con 18, Int 13, Wis 11, Cha 6 1: Barbarian 1 - WF: Dwarven Waraxe 2: Barbarian 2 3: Ranger 1 - Power Attack 4: Ranger 2 - TWF: Str 19 5: Ranger 3 - Endurance 6: Deepwarden 1 – Extra Rage 7: Deepwarden 2 8: Exotic Weapon Master 1: Uncanny Blow: Str 20 9: Fighter 1: Combat Expertise 10: Fighter 2: Cleave 11: Fighter 3: 12: Fighter 4: WS: Dwarven Waraxe, Improved Int 13: Occult Slayer 1 14: Occult Slayer 2 15: Deepwarden 3: ? 16: Deepwarden 4: Str 22
Mommy was an Orc 09-24-06, 02:18 PM	Is Exotic Weapon Master worth it for the Uncanny Blow? What about adding Occult Slayer to the build? Str 16, Dex 8, Con 18, Int 13, Wis 11, Cha 6 Never start out with 2 odd stats unless you have to do it(because you took a 17 in something). Drop Wis 1, get the 14 Int. 9: Fighter 1: Combat Expertise Combat Expertise doesn't work with Rage. I'd also heavily weight moving at least 1 level of Fighter up into the first 5 levels - you don't really need Uncanny Dodge with an 8 Dex. Useful, but you need the feat more.
Necrochaos 09-24-06, 02:45 PM	Won't putting off the barbarain level cause me an XP penalty? I know that Combat Expertise won't work with Rage, but I figure at higher levels I'll have to have the ability to raise my AC at times. I would have the choice of being a frenzied damage guy or the reserved AC/shield/combat expertise guy. I just haven't found the right way to make this character work. Maybe I get rid of the barbarian levels until after my first two levels of Deepwarden. I want to remove the Pious Templar from the original build for something else
Mommy was an Orc 09-24-06, 03:11 PM	I want to remove the Pious Templar from the original build for something else That's great, but you need to decide what that is first. Probably from a role-playing point of view moreso than a game mechanics point of view. You don't have to enter Deepwarden at 6th level, you could do it at 7th or even 8th instead.
Timlagor 09-26-06, 01:55 PM	What I don't get about this build is why EWM is in there -strength isn't high enough to make the 2xStr bonus worth it. ....unless you're going for the 'ultra-cheese interpretation'* in which case you need to be aware that it very often won't work (and may antagonise some DMs). * 2:1 PA while wielding 1 handed.
thorinXXX 09-26-06, 03:08 PM	Looks similar to a build that I am using. Dwarf St 16 Dx 12 Cn 18 In 10 Wi 10 Ch 6 1) Rang1: WF (waraxe), Fav enemy: human (Track) 2) Rang2: (TWF) 3) Barb1: Rage, Fast move, Extra Rage 4) Barb2: Uncanny Dodge 5) Rang3: (Endurance) 6) DW1: Power Attack 7) DW2: 8) EWM1: Uncanny Blow 9) ???: Oversized TWF After that I do not know if I will go ranger for more TWF fun or Horizon Walker for immunity to fatigue and more darkvision.
Mommy was an Orc 09-26-06, 05:01 PM	What I don't get about this build is why EWM is in there -strength isn't high enough to make the 2xStr bonus worth it. EWM is worth it if you're: Taking WF in a weapon anyway. Check. Have Exotic for free. Check. Have at least an 20 Str - 1d10+10=15.5 vs 2d6+7=14. In other words, it is worth it unless you're taking something better, as it basically amounts to the value of Weapon Specialization at 20-22 Str. Each 2 Str after that gives an additional +1 hp of damage.
JamesMaissen 09-26-06, 05:24 PM	....unless you're going for the 'ultra-cheese interpretation'* in which case you need to be aware that it very often won't work (and may antagonise some DMs). * 2:1 PA while wielding 1 handed. I'd be one of those people who read the stunt with the, as you put it, 'ultra-cheese interpretation' and would rather you perhaps refer to it in a less antagonistic fashion. -James Maissen
Necrochaos 09-26-06, 09:26 PM	Looks similar to a build that I am using. Dwarf St 16 Dx 12 Cn 18 In 10 Wi 10 Ch 6 1) Rang1: WF (waraxe), Fav enemy: human (Track) 2) Rang2: (TWF) 3) Barb1: Rage, Fast move, Extra Rage 4) Barb2: Uncanny Dodge 5) Rang3: (Endurance) 6) DW1: Power Attack 7) DW2: 8) EWM1: Uncanny Blow 9) ???: Oversized TWF After that I do not know if I will go ranger for more TWF fun or Horizon Walker for immunity to fatigue and more darkvision. I like this build. It looks interesting. I never thought TWF could be very good, maybe I'm wrong though. I'd like to see where this goes.
JamesMaissen 09-26-06, 09:36 PM	I like this build. It looks interesting. I never thought TWF could be very good, maybe I'm wrong though. I'd like to see where this goes. I suggest that you replace WF: Dwf War Axe with the urgosh and the Exotic Weapon Master Stunt with Flurry of Strikes. I think you will get more milliage out of it and have room for feats like Reckless Rage and the like, James
Necrochaos 09-26-06, 09:44 PM	I think I'll stick to the waraxe and not go TWF, it's a little more complicated than I want it to be. I just want to see down at the table, roll some dice and do some decent damage. All my other characters are very RP intensive. Lots of skills. This character won't be quite that way. I'll only be playing him at a table with my friend (his character is my brother). So I'd like to have a character that has less stuff to remember. So I think I'll stay with the ranger, barbarian fighter mix.
Necrochaos 09-27-06, 12:49 PM	I'd do something like this to rework the build: Dwarf Str 16, Dex 8, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 6 1: Barbarian 1 - Power Attack 2: Fighter 1 - WF: Dwarven Waraxe 3: Ranger 1 - Extra Rage 4: Ranger 2 - TWF: Str 19 5: Ranger 3 - Endurance 6: Deepwarden 1 - (feat needed to qualify for additional PrCs) 7: Deepwarden 2 8: Exotic Weapon Master 1: Uncanny Blow: Str 20 9: Fighter 2: Improved Bullrush, Shock Trooper The rest of the build depends on what PrC you want to go for. I think that Occult Slayer has some very problematic text in the rules section for you, even if we just ignore the flavor text. I'm going to go with this, but I don't really want the Bullrush or Shock Trooper. any other suggestions? Maybe Cleave or Improved Critical? My other question, why the 14 Wisdom instead of in Int for the skills?
Timlagor 09-27-06, 02:03 PM	Reckless Rage is an obvious good option for 9th Most people don't think much of Cleave in LG -we see very few true 'mooks' More Deepwarden isn't bad. Even with that Dex I'd be tempted to take Rapid Shot instead of TWF: you do have full BAB after all.
Lomiat 09-27-06, 04:32 PM	Reckless Rage is an obvious good option for 9th Most people don't think much of Cleave in LG -we see very few true 'mooks' More Deepwarden isn't bad. Even with that Dex I'd be tempted to take Rapid Shot instead of TWF: you do have full BAB after all. I saw no MOOKs my first year of LG and counseled my friend to use his Year 5 rebuild to switch from Cleave to Improved Bullrush (to lead into Shock Trooper). Then Year 5 seemed to offer nothing but MOOKs, and Cleave kept looking better and better. Cleave is hit or miss.
SgtHulka 09-27-06, 04:40 PM	Yes, years 5 and 6 I've seen Cleave work really well in Core mods. Even in situations where there aren't a lot of mooks, it isn't completely worthless, because every once in a while you can set yourself up for the "killing blow" on one opponent and cleave ino the next opponent, giving yourself an extra attack. It may get tougher to use, though, as more players start taking it again. One of the reasons I've seen it work lately is Judges absolutely don't expect you to have it, so they don't worry too much about "spreading" the enemies. When my buddy drops someone and I yell "Cleave!" it's always a fun surprise for the table. :D
JamesMaissen 09-28-06, 01:48 AM	Most people don't think much of Cleave in LG -we see very few true 'mooks' Cleave can be a great feat as is anything that can give a real damage dealer another attack. I have a thug that routinely is able to get milliage out of great cleave.. the key is just to hit hard enough and have alot of reach. -James
Iswald 10-01-06, 10:29 AM	My other question, why the 14 Wisdom instead of in Int for the skills? Wisdom will increase the character's will saves and it had enough skill points that the 10 int was enough to meet the prereq skill ranks. It could also have been an oversight since the pious templar version could use wisdom for spells.
Necrochaos 10-01-06, 10:53 AM	When I power attack 2H I'm doing less damage because of the odd modifier. I'd be doing more with the +4 instead of the +3. Str damage would be +6 damage instead of +4 (4.5 rounded down).