Post/Author/DateTime	Post
lostpike 11-05-06, 10:45 PM	Is an EL 6 too high for an intro module?
kenobi65 11-05-06, 11:13 PM	That's pretty dang extreme...why do you ask?
_m_ 11-05-06, 11:28 PM	id have a crack at it, but only with a 6 team of folks i already had played with, and who were 2 games in each, and preferably people who werent sitting on late strength characters.
lostpike 11-05-06, 11:29 PM	I played in an intro mod at a convention last month which had this and have seen it run twice since. Every time it has been run that I have seen there have been character deaths or the DM had to softball it. I was shown the mod and the final encounter is an EL 6 which I thought was a little extreme for an introduction module.
_m_ 11-05-06, 11:37 PM	whilst id genuinely rather die than be softballed (it really bugs me when no1 ever dies), if the mod was genuinely to hard to beat, i guess it would be ok. Ideally, the party would just survive the final encounter, after burning off everything they had. however, since you cant account for party composition, a final encounter would need to be challenging for a perfectly constructed party, but still completable by a bard style heavy group. that said, i think 6 would be a bit high to fullfill both these requirements.
Shieldhart91 11-05-06, 11:50 PM	It depends, really. Sure- if they've played two games already, they'll find that encounter easier then a brand new newbie would. I remember one module I had played with my monk: way too many combats. For only have 8 hit points, I did well, though. I love Half-Orc Monks =D
Japangirl 11-06-06, 12:09 AM	Intro mods are supposed to be APL 1, generally speaking. So overall, an EL 6 encounter would break the RPGA rules of EL +4 encounters, though you can make intro mods that are APL 2. Because all your characters are level 1 and thus many are in single digit hitpoints, few have a BAB, and spellcasters are so limited, I'd be really careful with an EL 6 encounter and probably would not put it in.
JohnduBois 11-06-06, 12:30 AM	In an intro mod, you are allowed to have a total of 12 ELs split between two combats. Most use the normal APL+1, APL+2, APL+3 format and get an EL 3, an EL 4, and an EL 5. Would it be possible to go 3/3/6? Sure. But I wouldn't recommend it, and I certainly would be asking that author what he was thinking. That said, I've seen (and written) intro adventures with a CR 6 monster, but the combat was deliberately set up so that the PCs would have an easier time with it. Environment/circumstances can work out for effective EL decreases, if done correctly.
zoinks69 11-06-06, 03:38 AM	A "real" EL 6 sounds unnecessary. I mean, Intro mods are 'supposed' to be written to 'introduce' players to LG. Granted, most of the time and most of the players are starting secondary PCs. While it shouldn't be a 'walk' for those guys, I don't think we need to be making the new guys run away screaming. And for that matter, why punish the others who may be starting 'sub-optimal' PCs for role-play flavor and fun?
Lomiat 11-06-06, 09:41 AM	An EL 6 is totally unnecessary and overkill, for that matter. I don't know what that author was thinking, but if he/she wanted to kill everyone, it's simple enough to kill all the PCs in an intro mod with an EL 4 or 3 encounter. The point, though, isn't to write an intro mod that kills all the PCs that play it. I expect the author had some other ambition in mind, but that's where we get to the question as to what made him/her think an EL 6 encounter was the best way to resolve anything...
MichaelTLH 11-06-06, 09:52 AM	Lostpike (David), You might also want to contact the Triad of the module in question and ask them to double-check the EL calculation. My guess here, being that you're in the region of which I am a Triad, is that you're speaking of a recent premiere for the POU, which does indeed have a higher than average encounter in it, but if run correctly by the GM following the tactics given and being aware of the mitigating circumstances should NOT result in an undefeatable encounter. Feel free to contact me off-list with specific concerns. poutriad @ gmail (dot) com Michael Jones Principality of Ulek Triad
The_Jester 11-06-06, 04:02 PM	EL6? That's just crazy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but mods are written with the assumption of 4 players so they would have to assume there'd be a table of 4 1st level characters and that it could be their first game. It's one thing to have hard encounters, everyone like a challenge. But that's bordering on overpowering. Even a fully rested party would have difficulty with that (and how many mods allow your character to be full-strength and healed before the final encounter?) Character death is acceptable due to poor planning or bad luck but you (writers/DMs) shouldn't set out to kill characters.
pedr 11-06-06, 05:22 PM	EL6? That's just crazy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but mods are written with the assumption of 4 players so they would have to assume there'd be a table of 4 1st level characters and that it could be their first game. It's one thing to have hard encounters, everyone like a challenge. But that's bordering on overpowering. Even a fully rested party would have difficulty with that (and how many mods allow your character to be full-strength and healed before the final encounter?) Character death is acceptable due to poor planning or bad luck but you (writers/DMs) shouldn't set out to kill characters.Just to point out that Living Greyhawk modules are written somewhat with the assumption that there are six players. This is particularly true as there isn't an APL 1. All intro mods are APL 2 - i.e. they have up to 12 Encounter Levels. I suppose that an author could put fewer ELs in and reverse-engineer an APL 1, but then you'd receive fewer XP and GP. That said, unless there are mitigating factors, EL=APL+4 is never an amazing idea, less of a good idea at the low APLs, and very much a bad idea in an intro module where you know that no PC is 2nd level.
garyjohnson 11-06-06, 06:57 PM	Just to point out that Living Greyhawk modules are written somewhat with the assumption that there are six players. This is particularly true as there isn't an APL 1. All intro mods are APL 2 - i.e. they have up to 12 Encounter Levels. I suppose that an author could put fewer ELs in and reverse-engineer an APL 1, but then you'd receive fewer XP and GP. There's no rule saying you have to have your 12 ELs in only three encounters - myself, I'd write an Intro using encounters of up to EL 3 (APL +2 for an APL 1 table, APL +1 for an APL 2 table), and thus have at least four encounters instead of three encounters. Given the fragility of 1st level characters and the notional purpose of Intro adventures as a way to recruit new players to LG and possibly to D&D, I don't see much recruitment value in using EL 4 and EL 5 encounters. Cheers, Gary Johnson
Howie23 11-06-06, 07:17 PM	My guess here, being that you're in the region of which I am a Triad, is that you're speaking of a recent premiere for the POU, which does indeed have a higher than average encounter in it, but if run correctly by the GM following the tactics given and being aware of the mitigating circumstances should NOT result in an undefeatable encounter. Don't those circumstances effectively reduce the EL and the related XP reward? I don't know the encounter in question, but if you have critters that calc out to EL6, but then introduce circumstances such that they aren't at their best, that should reduce the EL to 5, 4, or whatever. David
thorinXXX 11-06-06, 07:54 PM	Don't those circumstances effectively reduce the EL and the related XP reward? I don't know the encounter in question, but if you have critters that calc out to EL6, but then introduce circumstances such that they aren't at their best, that should reduce the EL to 5, 4, or whatever. David Unfortunately DM's have a nasty tendancy to miss mitigating circumstances, especially when running the mod cold. I have seen NPC allies who are supposed to help the PC's just fade into the woodwork. I have also seen mitigating circumstances that were not as mitigating as envisioned. e.g. A blind hag. The author didn't notice that the hag had the Blind Fighting feat. Yes, this was in an intro mod. But on the original topic, APL+4 has no place in an intro mod. That is an encounter that almost guarantees at least one character death, and runs a serious risk of a TPK.
budleiser 11-06-06, 11:02 PM	That mod was fun :)
awroe 11-07-06, 01:03 PM	Just to point out that Living Greyhawk modules are written somewhat with the assumption that there are six players. This is particularly true as there isn't an APL 1. All intro mods are APL 2 - i.e. they have up to 12 Encounter Levels. I suppose that an author could put fewer ELs in and reverse-engineer an APL 1, but then you'd receive fewer XP and GP. Surely LG modules should be written with no assumptions about the number of players, merely the APL. If there are six players, the APL is increased by 1 possibly forcing them to select a higher APL than if there were only 4, despite the same average character level. Assuming that there will be six players and that each of them will be at APL (rather than APL - 1) seems strange.
trollbill 11-07-06, 01:29 PM	Unfortunately DM's have a nasty tendancy to miss mitigating circumstances, especially when running the mod cold. I have seen NPC allies who are supposed to help the PC's just fade into the woodwork. I have also seen mitigating circumstances that were not as mitigating as envisioned. e.g. A blind hag. The author didn't notice that the hag had the Blind Fighting feat. Yes, this was in an intro mod. Funny you should mention that since the mod I suspect everyone is talking about is the only LG mod in which I lost a character. I haven't read the mod yet, but I suspected the reason I did die was the exact reasons you mentioned. And oddly because I think the DM was trying to be nice. In the final battle, I think we were supposed to lose to overwhelming force, but instead the DM softened the encounter by having them use rather stupid tactics. The end result was that we won after a very long and drawn out battle that kept everyone so desperately busy that no one could stop to bind my wounds when I got dropped to -3 and I eventully blead to death before the battle was over. Had we actually lost, I suspect my character would still be alive due to the nature of who we lost to. Not that it was really that big a deal. I mean, it was that character's first adventure and I can always run the character again with a different name. And it's unlikely I will ever die that way again since I now have the Second Wind card. But it does point out the importance of studying a module thoroughly before running it. And unfortunately, while that DM has a lot of potential, that DM hasn't realized that importance yet.
Lupo 11-07-06, 04:35 PM	sometimes the module just gets muddy because party composition. a certain intro mod sports an powerfull incorporeal undead, draining WIS, as final encounter, one could try to rest before it, but might get caught by a random encounter. the module author was nice enough to have a magic warhammer (medium) lying just in front of the players when they encounter the undead. as the undead has not to many hp it should be no problem, going there, grab the hammer, swing at the undead, roll miss chance, hit, it is gone. for a frontliner build the chances to get are not to bad and after two or three rounds the thing should be down. it was problematic with a party of the following composition: halfling rogue gnome fighter half-orc monk grey-elven wizard human cleric human sorc none was able to use the weapon without a -4 penalty, we barely survived it. another problem are modules where a writer WANTS the DM to use special tactics thatare in favour of the players and the DM just doesn't get it or doesn't want it the way the author has written it. ciao martin m. PS: as a DM i often look at descriptions for encounters and ask myself: HOW WOULD ANY FOE WITH SUCH A F**** TACTIC REACH SECOND LEVEL?????
ezreal2001 11-07-06, 05:48 PM	sometimes the module just gets muddy because party composition. a certain intro mod sports an powerfull incorporeal undead, draining WIS, as final encounter, one could try to rest before it, but might get caught by a random encounter. the module author was nice enough to have a magic warhammer (medium) lying just in front of the players when they encounter the undead. as the undead has not to many hp it should be no problem, going there, grab the hammer, swing at the undead, roll miss chance, hit, it is gone. for a frontliner build the chances to get are not to bad and after two or three rounds the thing should be down. it was problematic with a party of the following composition: halfling rogue gnome fighter half-orc monk grey-elven wizard human cleric human sorc none was able to use the weapon without a -4 penalty, we barely survived it. another problem are modules where a writer WANTS the DM to use special tactics thatare in favour of the players and the DM just doesn't get it or doesn't want it the way the author has written it. ciao martin m. PS: as a DM i often look at descriptions for encounters and ask myself: HOW WOULD ANY FOE WITH SUCH A F**** TACTIC REACH SECOND LEVEL????? As a gm I would have resized the hammer off screen. But seriously, a non corporial versus an APL 1 party? The module writer is on crack. I am so over writters who insist that the high powered opponents are balanced by some weird deus ex machina. Where I come from intros are ment to be just that, introductions. Give the players a feel for the region. Not some demented tour de force intented to cull out the poorer players. Thats what core specials are for:) E PS nothing says badly written like a gm and players picking apart some writter's poorly written box text.
Simpi 11-08-06, 05:08 AM	But seriously, a non corporial versus an APL 1 party? The module writer is on crack. I am so over writters who insist that the high powered opponents are balanced by some weird deus ex machina. Careful, said author is a Circle member these days :D But I say exactly the opposite, the module in question is excellent in my opinion. Very gritty start to adventuring career and all. Poster above fails to mention that PCs actually dont have any equipment whatsoever (this is intended to be their first module) but that they also get one shot spell like abilities during the course of their journey. The abilities of PCs are tested to the limits and many interesting situations can happen, such as a raging half-orc using a wheelbarrow as hideously inaccurate but lethal improvised weapon. Around here we have a saying, real adventurers started out in Calling Mines, rest are just cheap imitations (which means I am an imitation since I was forced to "eat" the module") Too bad it was a Y3 metaregional. We could still use it... I am more annoyed by writers using crazy templates and non-associated class levels with monsters to increase their power but keeping CR low. Using a relatively weak incorporeal undead from monster manual whose special ability can be nullified relatively easily is not ridiculous when PCs have access to magical weapon, one time spells such as Chill Touch/bless/magic stone and so on (and clerics might have gotten holy symbols by now as well). Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
Lupo 11-08-06, 05:42 AM	Careful, said author is a Circle member these days :D But I say exactly the opposite, the module in question is excellent in my opinion. Very gritty start to adventuring career and all. Poster above fails to mention that PCs actually dont have any equipment whatsoever (this is intended to be their first module) but that they also get one shot spell like abilities during the course of their journey. The abilities of PCs are tested to the limits and many interesting situations can happen, such as a raging half-orc using a wheelbarrow as hideously inaccurate but lethal improvised weapon. Around here we have a saying, real adventurers started out in Calling Mines, rest are just cheap imitations (which means I am an imitation since I was forced to "eat" the module") Too bad it was a Y3 metaregional. We could still use it... I am more annoyed by writers using crazy templates and non-associated class levels with monsters to increase their power but keeping CR low. Using a relatively weak incorporeal undead from monster manual whose special ability can be nullified relatively easily is not ridiculous when PCs have access to magical weapon, one time spells such as Chill Touch/bless/magic stone and so on (and clerics might have gotten holy symbols by now as well). Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad ;) ok, the access to some "spellike abilities" for the players was fun, but have you ever tried with a 1st level character - no halfling thrower specialist - to hit an incorporeal with magic stones, while the damned thing was in an melee??? :) and the "spellike abilities" were given out randomly (IF the playeers did the right thing at all). we ended up with all of us standing around the critter, helping one of the sturdier characters for hitting with the hammer and were lucky that the cleric made it out with at least some wisdom left. ok, the wisdom can be restored on the AR and the module in total was fun, but a second magic weapon, like a DAGGER - usable by everyone - would have been a reallly good idea. ciao martin m.
trollbill 11-08-06, 09:46 AM	;) ok, the access to some "spellike abilities" for the players was fun, but have you ever tried with a 1st level character - no halfling thrower specialist - to hit an incorporeal with magic stones, while the damned thing was in an melee??? :) and the "spellike abilities" were given out randomly (IF the playeers did the right thing at all). we ended up with all of us standing around the critter, helping one of the sturdier characters for hitting with the hammer and were lucky that the cleric made it out with at least some wisdom left. ok, the wisdom can be restored on the AR and the module in total was fun, but a second magic weapon, like a DAGGER - usable by everyone - would have been a reallly good idea. ciao martin m. I don't understand why, with both a Wizard and a Sorcerer, you weren't able to blow it away with Magic Missiles.
clik_ml 11-08-06, 10:06 AM	I don't understand why, with both a Wizard and a Sorcerer, you weren't able to blow it away with Magic Missiles. I'm guessing we're talking about an Allip here. They've got 26 HP, and that's likely more than enough to survive whatever magic missiles remain in their arsenal by the end of a mod. Nevermind the 5 temporary HP they get on each successful +3 touch attack they make! And if they did have enough magic missiles to bring an allip down (at 3.5 dmg a pop, that's around 8!), shame on them for making such a colossal waste of their spells. Really the wizard or sorc shouldn't be bothering with magic missile anyway. Spells like color spray and sleep (which granted do help in this instance) or enlarge person and magic weapon should be the mainstays. I recently played with a 4 wizard who prepped all his level 1 spells as magic missile... and was throughly disappointed. If he had prepped just 1 enlarge person, the whole mod would have gone much, much smoother. Magic missile is a trap usually. I'd rather a caster brought in a stinking celestial badger than magic missile, most of the time. I'd only bother prepping it at level 7+ as a last resort spell for when you've run out of everything else.
trollbill 11-08-06, 10:13 AM	I'm guessing we're talking about an Allip here. They've got 26 HP, and that's likely more than enough to survive whatever magic missiles remain in their arsenal by the end of a mod. Nevermind the 5 temporary HP they get on each successful +3 touch attack they make! And if they did have enough magic missiles to bring an allip down (at 3.5 dmg a pop, that's around 8!), shame on them for making such a colossal waste of their spells. Really the wizard or sorc shouldn't be bothering with magic missile anyway. Spells like color spray and sleep (which granted do help in this instance) or enlarge person and magic weapon should be the mainstays. I recently played with a 4 wizard who prepped all his level 1 spells as magic missile... and was throughly disappointed. If he had prepped just 1 enlarge person, the whole mod would have gone much, much smoother. Magic missile is a trap usually. I'd rather a caster brought in a stinking celestial badger than magic missile, most of the time. I'd only bother prepping it at level 7+ as a last resort spell for when you've run out of everything else. Well, my Sorcerer didn't take Magic Missile til he hit 3rd, but he is the only one I have seen that didn't take it at first. When it was mentioned that the creature could be taken out with a few swings from a magic hammer I assumed it did not have very many hit points as a few swings from a first level character against a creature with a 50% miss chance would only likely take it out if it had very few hit points.
clik_ml 11-08-06, 10:34 AM	When it was mentioned that the creature could be taken out with a few swings from a magic hammer I assumed it did not have very many hit points as a few swings from a first level character against a creature with a 50% miss chance would only likely take it out if it had very few hit points. Heh, yeah, I haven't seen the mod either. An allip as an incorporeal undead that drains wisdom and is at CR 3 and thus technically within the bounds of an intro mod sure seems to fit the bill. And an Allip is indeed a sick encounter that could easily TPK a party if the combat starts out even a little bad (a couple misses from the party fighter with the +1 weapon, and a couple hits to boost its temporary HP)... and unless you're really lucky or have a well-built intro party (and one rarely does), then you can expect the encounter to start out a little bad, especially since the Allip is likely to hypnotize the big dumb fighters at the start of the battle. I wouldn't be totally surprised if it was a nerfed/modified Allip (say removed the temp HP gain, maybe peeled off a HD or two, and definitely removed the Babble power) in order to justify its existence in an intro mod. If it was an out of the box Allip then it should destroy most parties if played properly.
solbergb 11-08-06, 01:35 PM	Magic missile in the APL1-2 range is one of those things better on a scroll than in your head. When you need it, it's to eliminate an enemy that the fighter mauled but isn't quite dead, and is dangerous enough that you want it ALL THE WAY dead before the fighter spends the next 3 rounds swinging and missing. In APL3-5, a magic missile is often about as reliable a damage dealer as a well designed archer. The archer does more damage but hits half the time, net result is the same. After APL6, MM just goes back into the "finish off a cripple" category. It isn't a trap, but it isn't a primary source of damage. It's a finisher, to take the randomness out of the killing blow. Any incorporeal that gets temp hitpoints out of its usual action is a bad idea in an intro mod, because damage output probably won't keep up with the temp hitpoint gain rate. One that doesn't have a way of healing or growing temp hitpoints isn't so bad (ghosts can work at EL1, if you pick their special abliities right, or they can be utterly lethal if you pick other abilities)
_m_ 11-08-06, 05:23 PM	Magic missile in the APL1-2 range is one of those things better on a scroll than in your head. When you need it, it's to eliminate an enemy that the fighter mauled but isn't quite dead, and is dangerous enough that you want it ALL THE WAY dead before the fighter spends the next 3 rounds swinging and missing. In APL3-5, a magic missile is often about as reliable a damage dealer as a well designed archer. The archer does more damage but hits half the time, net result is the same. After APL6, MM just goes back into the "finish off a cripple" category. It isn't a trap, but it isn't a primary source of damage. It's a finisher, to take the randomness out of the killing blow. Any incorporeal that gets temp hitpoints out of its usual action is a bad idea in an intro mod, because damage output probably won't keep up with the temp hitpoint gain rate. One that doesn't have a way of healing or growing temp hitpoints isn't so bad (ghosts can work at EL1, if you pick their special abliities right, or they can be utterly lethal if you pick other abilities) it isnt always a finisher. there are a decent number of enemies which simply cannot be hurt by other spells. we fought a flying incoporeal undead whisp. the combat classes couldnt reach it, the archer couldnt hit it, if we hadnt had a wizard and sorcerer with magic missile (it was IMMUNE to everything else) we wudnt have killed it. MM comes in handy because it cant miss, and it goes through everything but shield. its the spell you use to get damage when none of your other damage spells work.
solbergb 11-08-06, 09:13 PM	well..#1 the incorporeal wisp was at a high level thing, not a low level thing like this topic for the thread...and at our table the fighters did some damage too, and the sac Ex dusted the minion wisp. (it had to come down into our reach to damage us...will-o-wisps use touch attacks and don't have anything but touch attacks) I've used magic missile a few times in the midlevels as a damage dealer vs elementals with DR/- but it's a losing game once they get huge because they'll kill the party before you get one dead with such a small amount of damage. It also stops being as reliable when SR becomes more of a consideration than touch AC. But in intro mods yeah, it is the fact that it can't miss that matters. Not the damage. Even a L2 fighter takes too many hits to kill with magic missile for baby casters to have enough. But take that L2 fullplate/tower shield fighter to a fraction of his hitpoints by other means and it is good old magic missile that ends the fight.
trollbill 11-09-06, 10:40 AM	Yeah, I would definitely have to disagree with anyone claiming Magic Missile isn't that great a spell. Yes, it is very inefficient if you just try to use it to kill people. But it almost always adds to the attrition and can sometimes be the only means your party has of effectively damaging something. Just in LG I seen it get good use with: 1) Putting enough damage on a AC 24, non-flankable, non-energy damagable creative (in an intro mod, no less) so that when the fighters finally did get lucky enough to hit it, they could put it down. 2) Save the a much higher level character from suffering from Negative Energy levels by two magic missilers downing a wraith in short order. 3) Stop numerous opposing spells from being cast by reserving an action to cast Magic Missile on the first opponent that tries to cast a spell. It's range over the Orb spells is a big benefit there. 4) As a finisher. We fought one battle with a bunch of identicle thugs that had just enough hit points the fighters couldn't take them out in 1 swing. Killed three of them with one Magic Missile spell. 5) To actually do something to a bunch of Monks whose saves and Evasion made them highly resistant to just about anything else I could cast (I hit 6 of them with an AoE energy attack that did nothing). 6) To, on at least 3 different occasions, do most or all of the damage to an incorporeal undead. (The biggest problem with this is that most incorporeal undead are intelligent enough to realize whose hurting them the most and don't have a problem moving past the party blockers, so casting magic missile works as a lightning rod for incorporeal undead.) 7) Just add to the attrition in taking down monsters. 8) At the very least, it's a default spell simply becuase it is nearly garaunteed to do something. If you can't decide what else to throw, you can at least throw Magic Missile and know you are doing something. Of course, we are getting way off topic now.
Japangirl 11-09-06, 03:40 PM	Played and DM'ed the allip intro module. It is not a reduced/nerfed allip, and it comes after two other combats with no chance to rest in between them so even if your casters had enough magic missiles to start with, they were probably tapped out. The mod has no magic hammer in it, that was a DM softballing it. It does have some random scrolls that you can get that are useful, but you then have to have someone who can use them. Also, what spell like abilities are you talking about? I don't recall any point in that module that anyone could get anything special like that. The allip was only CR +2 and it nearly TPK'ed both the party I played with and the party I ran it for.
Lupo 11-09-06, 04:07 PM	Played and DM'ed the allip intro module. It is not a reduced/nerfed allip, and it comes after two other combats with no chance to rest in between them so even if your casters had enough magic missiles to start with, they were probably tapped out. The mod has no magic hammer in it, that was a DM softballing it. It does have some random scrolls that you can get that are useful, but you then have to have someone who can use them. Also, what spell like abilities are you talking about? I don't recall any point in that module that anyone could get anything special like that. The allip was only CR +2 and it nearly TPK'ed both the party I played with and the party I ran it for. the players can collect some one shot "spelllike abilities" from the voices of the calling mines IF they are brave enough to get them. the hammer is lying just in front of the allip and is magical "is glowing" and is on the cert as magic warhammer +1, special: glows when grasped. yea, it isn't spelled out in the encounter that it is a magical weapon, but it should be, and when i played it and when i dmed it, it was magical. ciao martin m.
Japangirl 11-09-06, 05:26 PM	Maybe different mods, this was not Calling Mines or whatever but a BK intro mod from year 5 or 6.
Madfox11 11-13-06, 11:12 AM	Definitely different mods... the one Lupo is referencing to differed in two important regards: (a) You could quite easily rest before the encounter with the allip. In fact, you could easily flee (and those hypnotized can be waken up with a slap to the face) and return later with the casters being better prepared. (b) Each PC gets a spell-like ability, and the adventure makes pretty sure that even though randomly determined, at least one or two should be of specific use against the allip. I ran that module several times and the allip was not the one that caused the real difficulties... Allips are not particularly dangerous if the DM keeps in mind that the thing is insane and not a tactical genious (despite its relatively high intelligence). Send in your fully defensive high Dex character to draw the heat and then follow by the cleric whose healing spells do NOT have a miss chance. The only reason it is really painful at low APLs is that the PCs do not have the flexibility yet to be prepared for every eventuallity and really need to be expecting incorporeals to be able to deal with it effectively. Hence it should be used with care. The real benefit is that it is much easier to escape from when ambushed and return later than with some other similar critters. The allip does not even come close to assassin vines... or scrags for that matter (a year 1 core adventure had scrags that the PCs had to face even at APL 2) ;) Mind you, I am very leery of allips in an intro mod, but it is not on my definite no list.
Japangirl 11-13-06, 01:33 PM	Ah. In the intro mod I thought was being discussed, there were no magic weapons and no spell-like abilities and no chance to rest after two other difficult combats (ghouls at APL1 is hard). It was very easy to run away, but the allip's tactics were to chase and try to drain wisdom as it went, hoping to take someone down. You couldn't return, you just had to run away if defeated because the allip had a crazy wizard of high level behind it that was using the allip to toy with the PCs, but if they returned he'd just blast them into bits and the PCs knew that. With a chance to rest, knowing what was coming, an allip isn't too tough, but the way I saw it used was just nasty.
Britt 11-14-06, 02:31 AM	One thing to note about allips: they can't kill you. They do not have create spawn and their wisdom damage does not kill you when you reach 0. That's just something a lot of people overlook, so thought I'd mention it.
_m_ 11-15-06, 05:09 PM	One thing to note about allips: they can't kill you. They do not have create spawn and their wisdom damage does not kill you when you reach 0. That's just something a lot of people overlook, so thought I'd mention it. HI BRITT! (it IS britt right, as in, wrote the mad house britt...?)
Britt 11-15-06, 05:29 PM	HI BRITT! (it IS britt right, as in, wrote the mad house britt...?) Da, that's me. Sorry for any emotional trauma I inflicted :)
_m_ 11-15-06, 05:52 PM	Da, that's me. Sorry for any emotional trauma I inflicted :) nar, it was a GREAT game... ok so you having my down to 3 con from silly half orc girl hit hard me... (wow, good sentence structure) kinda hurt... most fun in that 1 was the whole party trying to work out what to do with the lizard, when i had dispel charged and knew full well what had happened. 10 minutes of pricelessness :D
JohnduBois 11-15-06, 06:42 PM	Da, that's me. Sorry for any emotional trauma I inflicted :) Britt, I hate to say this (because I know that it will, at worst, inspire you and Bruce Paris to collaborate), but that mod was so fun that there's two PCs my wizard will never play at a table with again without some kind of assurance that they won't try to kill me. Also, I regret that I will not be able to (sadistically) DM it at a local con due to it running at the same time as the adventure I authored.
Britt 11-15-06, 07:41 PM	Oh, I almost forgot; I need to email Bruce about something ;)
paigeoliver 11-17-06, 07:38 PM	The Dyvers intro mods can be pretty bad. I have seen multiple TPKs in those. One pits a first level party against 4 second level characters, which is an EL 6, but it lists the encounter as an EL 5. Another never tops and EL 5, but it is all NPCs, a lot of which are warriors and the fights are one right after another. It is really brutal. A third never actually tops an EL4, but it seems to rip up a lot of parties with rather low CR vermin. One GM friend on mine has TPK'd 3 different parties with it. You know, I have spotted plenty of encounters where the CR was miscalculated and should actually be HIGHER, but I can't ever say I have seen one where the inverse was true. And I won't even get into the issue of adding levels of NPC classes to characters and monsters, or advancing 4 INT chokers by character level and making them spellcasters that can cast twice per round.
Madfox11 11-18-06, 03:36 AM	One pits a first level party against 4 second level characters, which is an EL 6, but it lists the encounter as an EL 5. It actually is an EL 5 or 6 and it is up to author/Triad to decide which. Just look at table 3-1 in the DMG. Circumstances and equipment make the difference here... And I won't even get into the issue of adding levels of NPC classes to characters and monsters, or advancing 4 INT chokers by character level and making them spellcasters that can cast twice per round. Int 3 or higher can have class levels...
paigeoliver 11-18-06, 04:44 AM	Ok, I will give you that, I have always calculated EL levels using automated tools, and everyone of those makes 4 CR 2 creatures a six. The charts have those numbers but I can find nothing in the text that defines how you calculate EL that actually supports using those alternate ELs listed on the chart. You got me on the other one too. Still seems wrong somehow. It actually is an EL 5 or 6 and it is up to author/Triad to decide which. Just look at table 3-1 in the DMG. Circumstances and equipment make the difference here... Int 3 or higher can have class levels...
DuctShuiTengu 11-18-06, 10:39 AM	And I won't even get into the issue of adding levels of NPC classes to characters and monsters, or advancing 4 INT chokers by character level and making them spellcasters that can cast twice per round. Aah yes, gotta love tricks like that. Adding a level of warrior to the 2 hit die monster to get it 50% more hit points and another feat doesn't increase the CR my :censored: Don't even get me started on Cleric not being an associated class for Giants. "No really, the Hill Giant 12th level cleric who casts Divine Power and Righteous Might just before the combat starts is just CR 13" :rant:
Britt 11-18-06, 10:55 AM	That's why CRing and ELing is an art, not a science. Those calculation tables and formulae are just suggestions, not the be all and end all of EL and CR.
Mithreinmaethor 11-18-06, 11:30 AM	Associated Class Levels Class levels that increase a monster’s existing strengths are known as associated class levels. Each associated class level a monster has increases its CR by 1. Barbarian, fighter, paladin, and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on its fighting ability. Rogue and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on stealth to surprise its foes, or on skill use to give itself an advantage. A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability. Nonassociated Class Levels If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by 1/2 per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1. Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated. so even nonassociated class levels increase the CR of the monster. which will bump the EL
Mommy was an Orc 11-18-06, 03:27 PM	It actually is an EL 5 or 6 and it is up to author/Triad to decide which. Just look at table 3-1 in the DMG. Circumstances and equipment make the difference here... In one mod, people from Dyvers gave a supposedly APL 4, CR 3 opponent tweaked point buy and NPC level 7 equipment. Circumstances and equipment obviously doesn't raise CR by their standards, it shouldn't lower it either. Int 3 or higher can have class levels... Sure they can - but the non-associated levels gets used very badly on occasion. I'm sure none of us consider an Elder Arrowhawk Wizard 15 a CR 15 encounter. But it could be...
Japangirl 11-18-06, 07:32 PM	OK, when an 11th level human caster is a HIGHER EL than an 11th level grell caster, something is terribly horribly wrong with the non-associated class levels. If at any time the CR of a monster is lower than its class levels, something is messed up. And yes, I have seen a caster grell that would have been illegal had it been a human caster because its CR would have been too high, but because of non associated levels it was only EL +3 or EL +4.
clik_ml 11-19-06, 01:58 AM	That's why CRing and ELing is an art, not a science. Those calculation tables and formulae are just suggestions, not the be all and end all of EL and CR. It sounds like quite a few authors and editors are collaborating to become catastrophically awful artists then (regarding the aforementioned cleric hill giant, grell caster, doubled toughness warrior critters, and we know there's more than just those out there). That said, I do like scrags as an encounter for an intro. They're slow, and don't regenerate if they come after the PCs. Shouldn't be too much trouble if nobody does anything silly. Circumstances could still make it a ridiculously deadly encounter, like if you're trapped in a small room with them for instance, that's a TPK.
Madfox11 11-20-06, 04:36 AM	OK, when an 11th level human caster is a HIGHER EL than an 11th level grell caster, something is terribly horribly wrong with the non-associated class levels. If at any time the CR of a monster is lower than its class levels, something is messed up. The real problem is that an 11th level human caster is *CR* 11 (note that EL and CR are distinctively different), in practice that is just not true for the higher level NPCs. Or at least, with perhaps a couple of monsters excepted, a CR 11 monster is always more dangerous than a 11th-level human NPC. You should also realize that ordinary monster advancement and CR increasement is equally risky, especially when size increasements get into the picture. For +1 CR an outsider gets 2 HD with fighter BAB, better skills, better saves and an increase in most of its special abilities. The only thing it lacks compared to fighter levels is 1 Feat, but on the long run that is more than compensated for by the extra HD. Still, you should realize that the Circle does not check Intro Mods. Complaints about them are best directed at the Triad responsible for them. My advice is to read the adventure before doing so, since I have had my fair share of complaints about situations that arrised due to DM's error or because the players misjudged the situation. If you have any critizism make it real clear what you consider to be the problem and why, be polite, and be willing to accept that the Triads might have had a very good reason for the choices that were made. Sometimes the intent of an encounter is for them to be highly lethal.
Japangirl 11-23-06, 05:30 PM	The grells were in a Core Special, which I believe is Circle-moderated. I could be wrong however, I don't know the politics of how Core mods and specials are done.
Madfox11 11-24-06, 09:26 AM	Core Specials are not designed for 1st level characters, but for APL 2. They also designed as dungeon crawls, preferably with a sick thing or two in them. They should not be compared to ordinary Intro Mods or even to standard core scenarios. Pieter Sleijpen RPGA Living Greyhawk Circle Member The Splintered Suns
clik_ml 11-24-06, 05:47 PM	Core Specials are not designed for 1st level characters, but for APL 2. They also designed as dungeon crawls, preferably with a sick thing or two in them. They should not be compared to ordinary Intro Mods or even to standard core scenarios. Pieter Sleijpen RPGA Living Greyhawk Circle Member The Splintered Suns I don't think there's any connection being attempted between the core special and the intros. The way the specials got dragged into the ELs in intro mods topic was roughly as follows: 1) Intros with crazy encounter levels. 2) Crazy encounter levels in other mods. 3) Crazy encounter levels in core special mod. 4) Intro mods are triad oversight, whereas core special mod has circle oversight. So I think the mentioning of core special stuff is more of an outgrowth of the discussion of improperly CR'd/EL'd encounters It's all well and good that the specials in particular should have their crazy-tough encounters, but they still should be recognized as such, rather than considering something like a 12th level caster grell as something equally or less difficult than a 12th level caster with an ECL zero race. Still, I can't say that those grells were out of line for a core special. Like Pieter says, core specials are expected to have some sick encounters. It's why I play them anyway. Back onto the topic of crazy encounters in general... I've played a meta-regional mod with two advanced apes (don't know how advanced, but they had about double HP or more) with some template that let them have spell like abilities at APL 6 who had quickened benign transposition as a spell-like ability along with another buff that added something like 1d10+10 damage to their unarmed attacks. I'm sure their CR/ELs on paper were acceptable somehow (though the terrain should have added at least a +1 which was probably ignored) but everything added up to make that an encounter that would reduce many APL 8 parties to a fine paste. When we receive 4 attacks (as one charges and then swaps places with its buddy who gets a full attack... with bonuses that *are* going to hit) in the first round of combat at an average of 30 damage apiece followed by 6 attacks the next round (as they swap places again between full attacks). 300 damage is a lot to soak in 2 rounds at APL 6... especially when the buggers are in a 10' tunnel and we can't even surround them or even gang up on one of em since they change places. Anywho I wanted to bring up that mod since I am very proud of the triads/metaregional coordinators and such for our metaregion, since that mod was wisely pulled for re-editing. I'm betting in that in play-testing the table(s) got lucky with a caster who simply made that encounter not happen, so I can understand how it snuck past into the wild.