Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Silvertears 03-22-06, 08:55 AM	Can anyone suggest some good 1st level feats for a dwarf fighter (who will be using a dwarven waraxe)? As far as stats go, I'm thinking str18, dex 12, con 16 (inc +2 dwarf), int 10, wis 8, cha 6 (dwarf -2)? Any suggestions on a PrC to work towards...? Thanks, Silver.
Lomiat 03-22-06, 09:24 AM	Can anyone suggest some good 1st level feats for a dwarf fighter (who will be using a dwarven waraxe)? As far as stats go, I'm thinking str18, dex 12, con 16 (inc +2 dwarf), int 10, wis 8, cha 6 (dwarf -2)? Any suggestions on a PrC to work towards...? Thanks, Silver. Exotic Weapon Master comes to mind. Uncanny Blow will let you double your STR bonus when you wield the axe 2-handed (rather than apply the standard 1.5 times your STR). All you need for Exotic Weapon Master is Weapon Focus in an exotic weapon and some skill points. Pious Templar's another powerful class. Gendwar Argrim is a dwarven deity with a favored weapon of dwarven waraxe. He's either LN or LG, and you have to be within one alignment step of your deity to get the class, as you need to be within one alignment step of your deity to take the requisite feat: True Believer. Pious Templar gives you Weapon Specialization, so you won't miss your 4th fighter level much if you take paladin (for the class skills--Knowledge [religion]), or go barbarian or ranger (for the skill points). For Pious Templar, you need Weapon Focus and True Believer, plus some skill points. Pious Templar, meanwhile, offers spellcasting, 2 good saves, mettle, damage reduction, some free feats, and full BAB. You might, however, want to drop your STR to 16, giving you another 6 attribute points, with which you could buy a 12 WIS and 12 INT. 12 WIS will let you cast spells later, and 12 INT will let you (with one attribute bump) upgrade to Combat Expertise if you decide to go that route. 18 STR will pay off more than the balanced attributes for about 5 levels. After that the penalties you incur to your other attributes will start to weigh against the raw strength. Regardless, with 16 or 18 STR and a dwarven waraxe, you ought to consider both Weapon Focus and Power Attack as 1st level feats. Power Attack is bread-and-butter for fighters.
kjenks 03-22-06, 09:58 AM	Don't figure out the feats for a 1st level fighter. Figure out the feat, skill and prestige class progression of a level 15 Living Greyhawk character that matches your character concept and work backward from there. The level 1 feats will fall out of that concept naturally, and they will not necessarily be the optimum feats for being a level 1 fighter. You might find yourself taking Dodge and Mobility at level 1, neither of which will help you very much right now, but those might be needed now for your long-term character development later. Read through all of the Core prestige classes and figure out which ones match your character concept. Read through your regional documentation, paying attention to which meta-orgs require which skill ranks or feats. See if one or more of those meta-orgs interest you and would be appropriate for your dwarf. This can shape your character concept, from which all the rest of it is logically developed. You can also use Fighter bonus feats to "roll your own" prestige class, with no multiclassing or prestige classes at all. But be flexible as your character progresses. You might find that your character's experiences and items will change the direction you started him in, and he ends up taking a different path. That's okay. Make a plan, but be flexible in its execution.
Silvertears 03-22-06, 11:29 AM	Thanks for the advice :) I think I agree about the 16 strength now that I think about it. And also will look into that Dwarven god with the waraxe. Looking through the PrCs, I think exotic weapon master WILL be good...at least for 2 levels - 1 for the 2x str bonus on 2-hander attacks, and 1 for being able to trip with the waraxe. And Pious Templar will also be good maybe a bit later on - taking one or two levels of barbarian for the skill points - or maybe it's better to take barbarian at level 1, then go fighter? Also good advice to plan backwards :) Anyone know if Races of Stone has any good PrCs for a dwarven meleer? Silver.
Lomiat 03-22-06, 11:35 AM	Races of Stone has the Stonelord (I think that's its name) that gets some cool spell-like abilities. If you're going to take Barbarian, you take it 1st level for the extra skill points and the extra hit points. A second of level of Barbarian can also be quite advantageous: the Uncanny Dodge ability can prevent a lot of sneak attack damage. "Planning backwards" just means that you look at the classes you might want and find which feats and skills are necessary. Then you make certain you plan a path that will allow you to get them. However, I think it's unrealistic to plan through all 16 levels. If you plan through 6 or 9, you'll have more than enough to anticipate through all your months (and years) of low-level gaming. Trying to wait out 4 years for all your build to come together can prove mind-numbing. Make certain that you DON'T pick feats that will only be useful "down the road." Nonetheless, you might pick up one or two things that will prove sub-optimal for a couple levels. The feats for Dwarven Defender might be among those--should you choose to pursue Dwarven Defender.
Arvagor 03-22-06, 11:38 AM	But be flexible as your character progresses. You might find that your character's experiences and items will change the direction you started him in, and he ends up taking a different path. That's okay. Make a plan, but be flexible in its execution. This is the biggest complaint I have about how people go about developing their PCs in Living Greyhawk... They become so enamored of the pursuit of "cool feature X", that they never make allowances for what the events going on around them -- meaning, what happened to the PC in the mods they play, and especially what regional events are happening to them... My main PC is a Rog5/Ftr2/Thf-Acr2... Belongs to the local thieves guild, but never really considered himself a thief, and really has never done anything that could be construed as an evil act. He's worked for the local church hierarchy/theocracy so many times, that I even shifted his alignment from CG (where he started out) to NG to reflect all the "lawfulness" that's rubbing off on him. I always thought I'd finish him out swapping rogue and acrobat levels, but because of recent events in my region (overly harsh crackdown on criminal elements, and those that are not "favored" churches in the region, for example), I am considering having him become a cleric of Trithereon, as he sees that such a role now needs to be filled in his region... He'll suck at it -- he has Wis 10, Cha 10 -- but the powers that be in his region must be kept watch over, and that type of role is one for Trithereonites. It'll make for great role-play, and that's the thing that everybody keeps forgetting we're here to do...
CSHunt68 03-22-06, 02:04 PM	On the contrary, lots of people are here to "roll-play", which is really what the game was mostly about at the very beginning. Nothing wrong with that ...
JohnduBois 03-22-06, 02:46 PM	This is the biggest complaint I have about how people go about developing their PCs in Living Greyhawk... They become so enamored of the pursuit of "cool feature X", that they never make allowances for what the events going on around them -- meaning, what happened to the PC in the mods they play, and especially what regional events are happening to them... My main PC is a Rog5/Ftr2/Thf-Acr2... Belongs to the local thieves guild, but never really considered himself a thief, and really has never done anything that could be construed as an evil act. He's worked for the local church hierarchy/theocracy so many times, that I even shifted his alignment from CG (where he started out) to NG to reflect all the "lawfulness" that's rubbing off on him. I always thought I'd finish him out swapping rogue and acrobat levels, but because of recent events in my region (overly harsh crackdown on criminal elements, and those that are not "favored" churches in the region, for example), I am considering having him become a cleric of Trithereon, as he sees that such a role now needs to be filled in his region... He'll suck at it -- he has Wis 10, Cha 10 -- but the powers that be in his region must be kept watch over, and that type of role is one for Trithereonites. It'll make for great role-play, and that's the thing that everybody keeps forgetting we're here to do... Don't forget that Trithereon accepts all types, as long as they follow the ethos... and I've found that the ethos makes for very good roleplaying interactions in both Veluna and Furyondy. I feel that with your character build, the Summoner would probably encourage your character to continue along his current path, as a character who suddenly starts playing against his abilities is less effective at subverting the tyrrany (yes, that's right, I said tyranny) of Rao...
solbergb 03-22-06, 02:48 PM	I don't see the conflict between having a character that fits your vision and roleplay. I'm actually not as much of a fan of the "plan at 15 and work backward" approach, rather I'm more of a "visualize what would make you happy if your character could do it and see how to translate that into game mechanics." I do tend to have plans, but I tend to start with level 1 and see if I can get it to grow in a way that makes IC sense. I try to have my chars have a similar "feel" from level 1-16, although sometimes it isn't possible or even desirable. (my monk has been an acrobatic terror to spellcasters from level 1, and still will be at 16, but the mix of grappling to tripping to flurrying changes as he levels, due to both increased competence in different areas and changing opponents. My favored soul starts out as an AC tank, but later in life relies a lot more on healing and spells to protect himself than on AC). Generally if you can describe your char in a few words, make sure that still fits you at every level, and take abilities/feats/PRCs/classes that continue to make it so. Example: for my sorceress it is "telekenetic arcanist" mechanically and "risk-taking independent rhenee who secretly carries a lot of conservative rhenee ideas with her and craves their approval even as she rebels". The Rhenee backround has heavily influenced her skill mix, but her spell mix is very much a rebellion against the typical "charm/divination" stuff expected from the steriotypical "wise woman" of her race. Her aptitude for physical magic and ineptness at other magic may well just be pure stubbornness on her part. Example: for my favored soul it is "durable healing machine" mechanically and "gnome who is grumpy about being singled out by a god and whose life was ruined by it" from a roleplay standpoint. The tension between him and his god actually defines many of his spell choices (he gets to choose about half, Procan gets to choose about half, and they don't really agree very well..) Exampe: For my monk, it's "strong, mobile tactical fighter with good saves, decent flurry damage and low AC" from a mechanical standpoint and "half-orc raised by orcs who accepted Pholtus and who is trying to prove the path of Discipline is superior to the path of Rage that most orcs follow". One thing that drives him is to be better than a barbarian at many things barbarians do. He's got to be faster, he wants to fight more effectively without resorting to massive weapons, he wants to exploit all the skills they can't use while raging. While he can't be more durable in melee or hit as hard in a single blow, he can be "durable enough" in melee and much more durable to spells, and he can make it just as hazardous to suck up a full attack from him as it would be from a barb. (dead is dead, overkill doesn't matter). Typically though he takes barbs out of their game, forcing them to fight on his terms (his victories vs barbarians tend to involve tripping and grappling, or sometimes trading single attacks by them for full attacks from him). A character like this would be very delighted with a class ability like the kensai "focus" thing which gives rage-like strength without actually having to rage, and remains utterly uninterested in all the wisdom-powered usual monk-stuff. Generally the simple mechanical concept will suggest some "optimal" builds, and then the roleplay considerations will cause unique variations, some of which have synergy (the favored soul would have zip for offense if it wasn't for Procan) some of which don't but do add some unique flexibility (my sorceress will end up with almost as many ways of moving things as warmages have for blasting things, and is way ahead of the curve in that respect at every level, starting with level 1). What I do insist on, for all my chars, is that adventuring is actually something they'd be *good* at, and that they'd have a reason to accept most any adventure hook. Should I screw up the mechanical part of the build and they prove seriously inept, or should I screw up the social part of the build and find the character not interested in the adventure hook more than once in a blue moon, I'd likely retire the character, since he clearly just isn't cut out for or interested in this line of work.
Arvagor 03-22-06, 02:51 PM	... tyrrany (yes, that's right, I said tyranny) of Rao...Amen, brother! (I am, in fact, from the Veluna region, so I know what you're talking about, esp. after our most recent interactive this weekend)
JohnduBois 03-22-06, 02:58 PM	Yeah, my Trithereon-worshipping warchanter (whose choice to go warchanter instead of Sublime Chord or straight bard was guided by a curse encouraging him to take the fight to Iuz) went to Veluna for BashCon and wasn't very impressed with what he saw... If it hadn't been for all the vampires he fought in the cross-regional interactive and the really nice signature item he found in a VTF metaregional, he would have considered the entire trip an exercise in failure, as the "rule of order" Veluna promotes really doesn't work in his experience.
deusxmachina 03-23-06, 01:35 AM	I also don't care much for making a final, high-level build and simply going backwards because that can make the mid-levels not very fun to play. I'll gladly sacrifice top-end power for mid-level fun. It's good to plan ahead as much as possible with any character, though. You really need to plan the full build and see how you would like the character at all levels. A main thing I'd say for a fighter is decide from the start if you will want to take any of the feats requiring a 13 intelligence. This can be a huge decision and will put the character down a certain path. A sword-and-board fighter I tend to have certain concepts in mind, and for a 2-hander I tend to have other concepts in mind. For example, I think Karmic Strike is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but only for fighters who hit very hard. (generally 2-handers with power attack.) Hitting only pretty hard would make me think twice about the feat. In general, 13 INT fighters seem more fun, but may not do as much pure damage. I'll take the fun. Fighters are thought of as being easy to play, but to make a good one they can be very complicated to play, mainly due to knowing what feats and stats and everything synergize with each other. If you go 2-handed, which it doesn't sound like you are, Power Attack is the #1 feat to have, no if's, and's, or but's. Other than that, it depends on what you want the character to do. You can make a fighter into a master of just about any form of combat, and that's what makes them so interesting to play. Kinda funny... 3.5 has made fighters more interesting than ever before. Too bad Mark of Heroes banned my changeling/fighter/warshaper 25'-reach-when-enlarged spiked chain guy. Couldn't make a will save to save his life, but stuff like that sure makes fighters fun to play. I currently have a ranger1/fighter4/dervishX which is fun with Elusive Target. A dwarf's movement speed doesn't cater to derivsh, though. This rambling point goes back to paragraph one, to plan your build ahead of time. There's plenty of prestige classes to take, and I'm sure you'll take one, so plan accordingly. You mentioned Races of Stone. I don't know if LG allows it, but if it does, maybe consider Goliath instead of dwarf. They are just so cool. Love the standing long jumps.
Lupo 03-23-06, 07:59 AM	Can anyone suggest some good 1st level feats for a dwarf fighter (who will be using a dwarven waraxe)? As far as stats go, I'm thinking str18, dex 12, con 16 (inc +2 dwarf), int 10, wis 8, cha 6 (dwarf -2)? Any suggestions on a PrC to work towards...? Thanks, Silver. the question is, whether you are accepting to take any BAB losses on your path to devasting damage dealer ;-) anyway with your proposed stat distribution you are not qualifying for any (prestige)class or feats with dex, int, wis or cha requirements easyly you will be even in trouble with prestige classes that need some skill requirements. so just mix fighter and barbarian levels, maybe one or two levels of exotic weapon master for the uncanny blow and exotic trip. consider starting with str 17 and distributing the points for getting into combat expertise (or at least close to it). ciao martin m.
paigeoliver 03-23-06, 08:25 AM	Dropping the STR to 17 actually gives him the 13 int right there.
Namarus 03-23-06, 12:20 PM	Deep Warden is a must. Just 2 levels are required, however the class is pretty good all the way up. d12 HD primary bab primary fort+will Excellent skill points, and an unbeaten skill list. Hands down the best dwarven PrC for a Melee character. Also your Dexterity can be a dump stat for Deep Warden, since at level 2 Con is applied to AC instead of Dex.
Lomiat 03-23-06, 01:18 PM	If you're willing to sacrifice BAB somewhere down the road, then you can do all sorts of things with your fighter types. My fighter sacrificed one point of BAB to gain the Rogue's Evasion; combined with Mettle and the Occult Slayer's immunity to Mind Affecting effects as well as a number of bonuses to saves vs. magic, he'll be fairly solid once everything starts getting into massive "save or die" situations (or save vs. massive area effect damage spells, etc.). Of course, if you plan to be a full plate, high AC fighter, you probably won't aim for Evasion at any point. And my character's build sacrifices a lot of HP, too.
Silvertears 03-23-06, 04:21 PM	Well, first let me say THANK YOU for all the responses. This is actually the first time I'm playing a meleer AND the first time I'm playing a dwarf.... I think this is what I've decided to go for: Mtn Dwarf, str 16, dex 12, con 16, int 13, wis 11, cha 6. I think this gives me enough str and con to melee effectively, still gives me the 13 int for feats (which I didn't even think about), and a wis high enough to at least cast 1st level spells if I go that route. And I can always add 1 to that from leveling if I really decide I want to... Barb 1/Ftr 4/Stonelord 1/EWM 2 in that order. After that we'll see what happens. Dwarven defender is definitely way up there on my list, but I"m not really into the whole lawful thing ;) ATM I'm thinking stonelord all the way up after that, but who knows. Occult slayer sounds interesting, but we'll see. No idea what deep warden is...what book is it from? Maybe add some of those levels at some point after 8th also.... :) Jeff.
JohnduBois 03-23-06, 06:35 PM	Stonelord 2 is pretty good, since you get to pick the ability. My stonelord (who starts out with a 20 CON) is going for the 1/day hold person in combination with the Death Blow feat.
Jedi_Alec_Swann 03-23-06, 07:11 PM	Amen, brother! (I am, in fact, from the Veluna region, so I know what you're talking about, esp. after our most recent interactive this weekend) Excuse me, Sir? I am Sergeant Kurn of the Mitrik Temple Guard. Are you spreading Subversiness in the Archiclericy of Veluna? I am Afraid I will have to take you in for questioning by a church inquistitor. OOC- in defense of the region, many players were complaining about the church not being active enough seeing it was supposed to be the Government. Hence the 5 year arc of something the church let be buried came back and almost destroy the country. So the Church is reacting to the demand of the people. Get Evil out of Veluna. the people who were arrested had crimes already against them or wanted for questioning. People are reacting that the Veluna church has gone Raoianist or something.
paigeoliver 03-23-06, 07:12 PM	I'd suggest swapping the INT to 14 and having the wisdom be a 10. You can always buy a +2 wisdom amulet if you decide you want a couple of cleric levels. I'd spend my actual level boosts on either STR or CON. Although if it were actually me then I'd dump wisdom to an 8. Boost the Con to a 17 and the Int to a 14. It usually isn't best to have more than one odd numbered stat.
Arvagor 03-23-06, 07:51 PM	Excuse me, Sir? I am Sergeant Kurn of the Mitrik Temple Guard. Are you spreading Subversiness in the Archiclericy of Veluna? I am Afraid I will have to take you in for questioning by a church inquistitor.:pbbbtt: Hmmph! Typical arrogance of the Guard... I have a feeling the Church may be just as interested in your recent activities in the Ekbir region -- have you made a full report to the Inquisitors yet??? :schemes:
JohnduBois 03-23-06, 07:58 PM	:pbbbtt: Hmmph! Typical arrogance of the Guard... I have a feeling the Church may be just as interested in your recent activities in the Ekbir region -- have you made a full report to the Inquisitors yet??? :schemes: Man, that guy's as bad of the Knights of the Hart, ain't he? Good thing us Furyondians got our troops back from Veluna... who knows what kind of crazy inquisitive stuff we'd have picked up from your land. Heironeous is bad enough without picking up Rao as well... the only thing worse than a restrictive lawful deity is a restrictive pacifist lawful deity...
Jedi_Alec_Swann 03-23-06, 08:03 PM	:shifty: :pbbbtt: Hmmph! Typical arrogance of the Guard... I have a feeling the Church may be just as interested in your recent activities in the Ekbir region -- have you made a full report to the Inquisitors yet??? :schemes: well Atleast I was not prostrating the whole module like the Cleric was... the night after the end of the module was :cloud9: As to the arrogance. well I was one of the tables that completed the Reaping run by the module author... so yeah Eustance has a ego now. and I think the church will let the Ekbir thing slide. Helps to be part of the system and not organizing protests.. yes Tritherions I am looking in your direction.
JohnduBois 03-23-06, 08:17 PM	:shifty: well Atleast I was not prostrating the whole module like the Cleric was... the night after the end of the module was :cloud9: As to the arrogance. well I was one of the tables that completed the Reaping run by the module author... so yeah Eustance has a ego now. and I think the church will let the Ekbir thing slide. Helps to be part of the system and not organizing protests.. yes Tritherions I am looking in your direction. Organized protest is a valuable part of a well-run society, as it allows the people an opportunity to show their displeasure with the establishment with little fear of reprecussion. In fact, had the Trithereonites in Furyondy been more willing to protest our king's unwise acts, the once-fair city of Chendl would not be in the dark and beseiged by the undead hordes of the Dark Ex-Prince. The blindness of the "system" you speak of allowed the Heretic Herion to gain power, and serves as perfect example why the Church of the Summoner must exist - for if none watch the "system", no eye remains open to perceive its flaws. Sergeant Kurn, we thank you for providing your own nation as an example of what not to do, and our Church will gladly offer such council to King Belvor when the opportunity presents itself. -Corporal Stoneface Brechtsen, Furyondy Military -Ermos Num, Favored Soul of Trithereon