Flan, Ancient Flan, Druidic? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Flan, Ancient Flan, Druidic? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
mowaca
10-29-06, 12:51 PM Are Flan, Ancient Flan, & the non-secret parts of Druidic all essentially the same language?

I'm asking this from the standpoint of a Druid: if you know Druidic, which is based on Flan, wouldn't you know Flan too? In that case, taking Flan as a language would be redundant.
Prochytes
10-29-06, 02:49 PM Are Flan, Ancient Flan, & the non-secret parts of Druidic all essentially the same language?

I'm asking this from the standpoint of a Druid: if you know Druidic, which is based on Flan, wouldn't you know Flan too? In that case, taking Flan as a language would be redundant.

I hope that this is right, but someone do jump in if I am misremembering:

1. Flan is Ancient Flan (for mechanical purposes).

2. Neither Ancient Flan nor Flan is the same as Ur-Flan, which you cannot learn without a cert.

3. None of the Flans (so to speak) is comprehensible if you only speak Druidic. Common is "based on" Ancient Baklunish and Old Oeridian, but that does not mean that every PC understands those two languages.

I am sure of 3. 1 and 2 I need to look up.

[edited for a typo]
Arvagor
10-29-06, 03:44 PM I'm asking this from the standpoint of a Druid: if you know Druidic, which is based on Flan, wouldn't you know Flan too? In that case, taking Flan as a language would be redundant.Where is there any source that says Druidic is based on Flan? Sounds like something a region made up...

In any case, the Circle has stated (it's even in the LGCS FAQ), that Flan and Ancient Flan are the same:Q: I’ve seen references to Ancient Flan and Ur-Flan. Are they the same language as Flan?
A: Ancient Flan and Flan are considered to be the same languages (one is a more archaic form, but they are both understood by a character that possesses either). Ur-Flan is considered a separate language from Ancient Flan and Flan.
mowaca
10-29-06, 05:01 PM Where is there any source that says Druidic is based on Flan? Sounds like something a region made up...

The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, page 12. "The druid's tongue of the Flanaess shares roots with Flan, but it specialized and static, focusing only on the natural world and agriculture".

'Shares roots with Flan' sounds to me like someone who knows Druidic can read and mostly understand Flan, similar to how someone fluent in Danish can read and understand other Scandinavian languages. In recent adventures, Flan = Welsh, but I'm not familiar enough with Celtic languages to know how mutually intelligible they are.
_m_
10-29-06, 05:28 PM 'Shares roots with Flan' sounds to me like someone who knows Druidic can read and mostly understand Flan, similar to how someone fluent in Danish can read and understand other Scandinavian languages.

id have to disagree with you. english shares roots with spanish, french and italian... can you speak all of them? 'shares roots' really dosent help in the understanding of languages. if you think about it, a massive proportion of the non-asian languages spoken throughout the world have either latin or ancient greek roots, but it dosent assist in understanding any of the other ones.

also, if you think about it, if a druid could understand flan based on the roots, logically, wouldnt someone who understood flan be able to speak druidic as a result?
clannagh
10-29-06, 05:37 PM My understanding of Ur Flan was if you didnt take it as an original language you needed to justify where you learnt it (being a dead temple language only academics and "Indianna Jones" types can speak it) but that didnt extend as far as needing a specific AR/cert.

The most common way in Perrenland to learn it seems to be from a kondakanen spirit of some ancient deceased ur flan speaker however my understanding is that simply having your GM note on an AR you have met someone in game that can teach it should suffice to invest skill points and take it as a language the next time you level.
_m_
10-29-06, 06:23 PM My understanding of Ur Flan was if you didnt take it as an original language you needed to justify where you learnt it (being a dead temple language only academics and "Indianna Jones" types can speak it) but that didnt extend as far as needing a specific AR/cert.

The most common way in Perrenland to learn it seems to be from a kondakanen spirit of some ancient deceased ur flan speaker however my understanding is that simply having your GM note on an AR you have met someone in game that can teach it should suffice to invest skill points and take it as a language the next time you level.

meanwhile, MY understanding of urflan... is flawless :D

of course, comrehend languages is pretty easy to come by. its rare that theres anything particularly vital writen in a language no1 speaks, but on the off chance there is, 1 scroll would do the trick.
Arvagor
10-29-06, 06:40 PM The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, page 12. "The druid's tongue of the Flanaess shares roots with Flan, but it specialized and static, focusing only on the natural world and agriculture".I'm with _m_ ... Just as in the real world, "shares roots with" doesn't necessarily mean "descended from".

One can say that the Romance languages (French, Italian, Spanish, Portugese, and Romanian) are descended from Latin (specifically the Vulgar Latin), which is why a speaker of one of the languages can sometimes understand the gist of what a speaker or writer of another of the languages is saying (because many of the words sound the same, or are spelled the same, and have the same meaning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages#Vocabulary_comparison) ).

Conversely, one could also say that French shares roots with Hindi (one of Indian languages), as both can ultimately trace their origins back to the Proto-Indo-European language, a hypothetical common ancestor of the Indo-European languages (of which Latin is just one).

By its phrasing, it is likely (IMO) that the LGG reference is much more of the second variety ("shares roots") than of the first ("descended from")...

meanwhile, MY understanding of urflan... is flawless :D

of course, comrehend languages is pretty easy to come by. its rare that theres anything particularly vital writen in a language no1 speaks, but on the off chance there is, 1 scroll would do the trick.Until you come across the occasional mod that, for some inexplicable reason, states comprehend languages mysteriously does not work on this particular passage, and Ur-Flan seems to be the most common recipient of this "untranslatability".

I typically ignore those statements, and allow comprehend languages to translate (note that one still has a chance of misinterpreting the text :schemes: )
mowaca
10-29-06, 08:33 PM You all have a point about the vagueness of that passage - I don't know what they meant by 'shares roots with', hence, the question!

Without giving away spoilers, there are many recent core adventures that have lots of Flan in them, and it IS Welsh. The relationship between Welsh and Irish is probably a better example than Romance or Germanic languages, especially since Druids were the priests in ancient Celtic societies. Like the Celtic langauges, I'm guessing that Flan had many different 'branches' at some point but was simplified for Living Greyhawk into a single language.

I actually hoped there was some old Greyhawk accessory or Dragon magazine that discussed this or someone in charge who knows the answer. I'm hoping the the authors of those adventures with lots of Flan in them read this and can give us their opinion.
Samwise
10-30-06, 12:14 PM Without giving away spoilers, there are many recent core adventures that have lots of Flan in them, and it IS Welsh.

That is DIRECTLY related to the primary authors. If they doesn't catch this I'll try to prod some of them into expanding on this.

Like the Celtic langauges, I'm guessing that Flan had many different 'branches' at some point but was simplified for Living Greyhawk into a single language.

Officially, no. Flan is Flan, and the existence of Ur-Flan in LG is a change to what appears in published canon.

Unofficially, that is the conventional wisdom for most of the Greytalk crowd.
The natural question here is, "Well who the heck are they, and why the heck do they matter?"
The answer is: because one is Gary Holian, one of the authors of the LGG, and continuing contributor to Dragon and Dungeon, and another is me, active core reviewer and continued sounding board for Gary and several LG writers.
Given a choice, and indulgence of our whims, all languages in GH would be expanded significantly. For many reasons, that wouldn't work in LG. (People freaked when Knowledge (local) became multiple skills. Now imagine how they would react if Common were purged as a language and they needed to "waste" 2-10 skill points to talk to the locals in every region and core.) So barring some serious indulgence, I would not expect any official change, but if you'd like to discuss unofficial things, wander over to Canonfire! and I'll be glad to yak about it endlessly.
Arvagor
10-30-06, 12:52 PM Given a choice, and indulgence of our whims, all languages in GH would be expanded significantly. For many reasons, that wouldn't work in LG. (People freaked when Knowledge (local) became multiple skills.It seemed a little awkward to me at first, given the way the skill is described in the PHB, but the more I thought about it, the implementation makes sense. I hesitate to use the phrase "is more realistic" on a D&D discussion forum, but consider this -- a person with 10 ranks in Knowledge (Local) theoretically knows a great deal about "legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids" of any region/location on Oerth. But doesn't it make more sense that someone of that scholarly rank is more likely to know a great deal about one particular region/city than they would about the rest of the world? It's like saying an expert at knowing the history, culture, legends, etc. of London, England would know the same amount of information about Hoboken, New Jersey!

It's a tradeoff -- I've seen other living campaigns (notably Arcanis) allow you to specialize in one particular area of a knowledge skill (for example, you could take Knowledge (Nature-plants), and know a lot more about plant biology than animal biology), and the Knowledge (Local) skills are done the same way (and have the most specializations), but it seems like there can be too much specialization then -- our system in LG seems to be a nice balance...

Now imagine how they would react if Common were purged as a language and they needed to "waste" 2-10 skill points to talk to the locals in every region and core.) So barring some serious indulgence, I would not expect any official change, but if you'd like to discuss unofficial things, wander over to Canonfire! and I'll be glad to yak about it endlessly.I've seen two lists: there's Canonfire's Languages of the Flanaess (http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=663&mode=nested&order=0&thold=0), which seems meant to feel more like a scholarly treatise, and there's the Languages of Bastard Greyhawk (http://homepages.ius.edu/rvest/Greyhawk/GHLanguages.html) which states it is based on the Canonfire article, but is simply a list -- 36 languages, to be precise (I haven't taken the time to see how it differs from the Canonfire list).

The only thing I disagree with is Druidic having any connection with Flan, however far in the remote past its roots are. The presumption is that, at the time Druidic began codification, no other culture would have had people who were druids -- the Olman and Touv seem like they would have been just as in touch with the natural world as the Flan, and the elves have been around at least as long as the Flan ;). So why pseudo-Flannish origins?
_m_
10-30-06, 06:14 PM incidentaly... i have a question... if a druid lost its normal languages (there are some mods that do it) and could ONLY speak druidic... and you were a mind bender... would you then be speaking telepathic druidic?

i also agree that we have a good balance. not TOO much specialisation (ive only got so many skill points) so as to make it impossible to ever have the right locals / languages, but also not so standard that every gnome and his frog speaks the local lingo, and knows whats what everywhere they go.
Arvagor
10-30-06, 06:50 PM incidentaly... i have a question... if a druid lost its normal languages (there are some mods that do it) and could ONLY speak druidic... and you were a mind bender... would you then be speaking telepathic druidic?Telepathy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#telepathy) only requires that both (all?) parties have a language, not the same language, which implies IMO, that you simply must be more intelligent than an animal -- compare the (Su) ability with the telepathic bond (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telepathicBond.htm) spell, which states "Int 3 or higher" as a valid target. I have always played that the "regardless of language" clause carries over to the (Su) ability.
clannagh
10-30-06, 07:11 PM As a side comment :)

English "shares roots with" and in fact has words in common with Sanskrit, they are both aryan languages.

I doubt anyone here could understand sanskrit on the basis of having fluent english.
Arvagor
10-30-06, 07:34 PM English "shares roots with" and in fact has words in common with Sanskrit, they are both aryan languages.

I doubt anyone here could understand sanskrit on the basis of having fluent english.Well that's the point I was trying to make ;)

Technically speaking, Sanskrit is part of the Indo-Iranian language group (sometimes called the Aryan group), which is itself a subset of the Indo-European language group. English descends from a different branch of the Indo-European languages, namely the Germanic branch.

But that's a long, scholarly discussion that, while tangentially related to languages in Greyhawk, is probably too detailed for this forum. :teach:
_m_
10-30-06, 07:35 PM Telepathy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#telepathy) only requires that both (all?) parties have a language, not the same language, which implies IMO, that you simply must be more intelligent than an animal -- compare the (Su) ability with the telepathic bond (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telepathicBond.htm) spell, which states "Int 3 or higher" as a valid target. I have always played that the "regardless of language" clause carries over to the (Su) ability.

do animals not have a language? if not, how on earth do they comunicate?
do dolphins have higher int than normal animals? surely you could comunicate with animals, even if its just generic feelings and such. else charm monster / suggestion would be kind of lame... you wouldt be able to tell your charmed dire wolverine what to do.
Arvagor
10-30-06, 07:53 PM do animals not have a language? if not, how on earth do they comunicate?Technically speaking, no; they communicate through facial gestures, body language, aggressive/non-aggressive behavior (snarling, biting, tail-wagging, etc.). Look at any text, or Natl Geo/Animal Planet program, and you see clear examples of how other animals can express emotive content (which is what animal expression really is) without need of language.

do dolphins have higher int than normal animals?By the RAW, no. They would pretty much get lumped in with the porpoise stat block, which is "Int 2".

surely you could comunicate with animals, even if its just generic feelings and such. else charm monster / suggestion would be kind of lame...Communication doesn't necessarily require a language -- using the Handle Animal skill is a form of communication with an animal, but language doesn't have to be a component of that (it can be hand gestures, for example). Charm person doesn't require a creature to share a language with you, any more than charm animal or charm monster does -- the affected creature will simply "regard you as its trusted friend and ally", which does not require you to share a language. FTR, suggestion requires the target to understand the caster (it has the [Language-Dependent] descriptor).

you wouldt be able to tell your charmed dire wolverine what to do.A charmed dire wolverine now regards you as a friend and ally. IMO, that means it would be receptive to commands via the Handle Animal skill.
_m_
10-30-06, 08:32 PM so, as a mind bender, you could still us suggestion to comunicate with said dire wolverine a course of action. would it still be subject to handle animal?

actually now it comes to it, id best move tis to a new thread, hold on. Charm, in rules form.
garyjohnson
10-31-06, 10:25 PM My understanding of Ur Flan was if you didnt take it as an original language you needed to justify where you learnt it (being a dead temple language only academics and "Indianna Jones" types can speak it) but that didnt extend as far as needing a specific AR/cert.

The most common way in Perrenland to learn it seems to be from a kondakanen spirit of some ancient deceased ur flan speaker however my understanding is that simply having your GM note on an AR you have met someone in game that can teach it should suffice to invest skill points and take it as a language the next time you level.

http://perrenland.rpga-apac.com/gazetteer/languages.php#metagame - "All characters created with Perrenland as their home region have access to Ur Flannae as a bonus language."

Cheers,

Gary Johnson
Maesto
11-01-06, 08:37 PM Hmm... If I multiclass into druid, do I need to put points into speak language (druidic)?
pedr
11-01-06, 08:51 PM I believe so, yes. If you want to be able to speak it, that is.
Arvagor
11-01-06, 09:05 PM Hmm... If I multiclass into druid, do I need to put points into speak language (druidic)?No. Per the PHB:A druid also knows Druidic, a secret language known only to druids, which she learns upon becoming a 1st-level druid. Druidic is a free language for a druid; that is, she knows it in addition to her regular allotment of languages and it doesn’t take up a language slot. Druids are forbidden to teach this language to nondruids.
pedr
11-01-06, 09:20 PM That'll teach me to post when I should be writing my PhD thesis :looloo: - and watching the hockey.
_m_
11-01-06, 10:22 PM so, since it expressly says druids are forbidden to tech this language to any non druids... can anyone think of a way to get them to teach it to a non druid?

and what abot blighters? do they loose it, and are they alowed to teach it.
Maesto
11-02-06, 02:20 AM I was more thinking along the lines of if I multiclass into a druid, then I die and lose my druid level, do I retain the language? Because then I'm not a druid anymore, and could teach it to other people =)
_m_
11-02-06, 05:19 PM maybe speakin druid is more like an inate ability than a knowledge. kind of like, if you loose a wizard level, you still have your spellbook full of spells, but if you loose a sorcerer level, you cant just say: well neaturally, i retain all of my mystical arcane knowledge.

whist technically a language, i would say its mopre a supernaturalish trait of being a druid, and that no druid = no more language.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mowaca 10-29-06, 12:51 PM	Are Flan, Ancient Flan, & the non-secret parts of Druidic all essentially the same language? I'm asking this from the standpoint of a Druid: if you know Druidic, which is based on Flan, wouldn't you know Flan too? In that case, taking Flan as a language would be redundant.
Prochytes 10-29-06, 02:49 PM	Are Flan, Ancient Flan, & the non-secret parts of Druidic all essentially the same language? I'm asking this from the standpoint of a Druid: if you know Druidic, which is based on Flan, wouldn't you know Flan too? In that case, taking Flan as a language would be redundant. I hope that this is right, but someone do jump in if I am misremembering: 1. Flan is Ancient Flan (for mechanical purposes). 2. Neither Ancient Flan nor Flan is the same as Ur-Flan, which you cannot learn without a cert. 3. None of the Flans (so to speak) is comprehensible if you only speak Druidic. Common is "based on" Ancient Baklunish and Old Oeridian, but that does not mean that every PC understands those two languages. I am sure of 3. 1 and 2 I need to look up. [edited for a typo]
Arvagor 10-29-06, 03:44 PM	I'm asking this from the standpoint of a Druid: if you know Druidic, which is based on Flan, wouldn't you know Flan too? In that case, taking Flan as a language would be redundant.Where is there any source that says Druidic is based on Flan? Sounds like something a region made up... In any case, the Circle has stated (it's even in the LGCS FAQ), that Flan and Ancient Flan are the same:Q: I’ve seen references to Ancient Flan and Ur-Flan. Are they the same language as Flan? A: Ancient Flan and Flan are considered to be the same languages (one is a more archaic form, but they are both understood by a character that possesses either). Ur-Flan is considered a separate language from Ancient Flan and Flan.
mowaca 10-29-06, 05:01 PM	Where is there any source that says Druidic is based on Flan? Sounds like something a region made up... The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, page 12. "The druid's tongue of the Flanaess shares roots with Flan, but it specialized and static, focusing only on the natural world and agriculture". 'Shares roots with Flan' sounds to me like someone who knows Druidic can read and mostly understand Flan, similar to how someone fluent in Danish can read and understand other Scandinavian languages. In recent adventures, Flan = Welsh, but I'm not familiar enough with Celtic languages to know how mutually intelligible they are.
_m_ 10-29-06, 05:28 PM	'Shares roots with Flan' sounds to me like someone who knows Druidic can read and mostly understand Flan, similar to how someone fluent in Danish can read and understand other Scandinavian languages. id have to disagree with you. english shares roots with spanish, french and italian... can you speak all of them? 'shares roots' really dosent help in the understanding of languages. if you think about it, a massive proportion of the non-asian languages spoken throughout the world have either latin or ancient greek roots, but it dosent assist in understanding any of the other ones. also, if you think about it, if a druid could understand flan based on the roots, logically, wouldnt someone who understood flan be able to speak druidic as a result?
clannagh 10-29-06, 05:37 PM	My understanding of Ur Flan was if you didnt take it as an original language you needed to justify where you learnt it (being a dead temple language only academics and "Indianna Jones" types can speak it) but that didnt extend as far as needing a specific AR/cert. The most common way in Perrenland to learn it seems to be from a kondakanen spirit of some ancient deceased ur flan speaker however my understanding is that simply having your GM note on an AR you have met someone in game that can teach it should suffice to invest skill points and take it as a language the next time you level.
_m_ 10-29-06, 06:23 PM	My understanding of Ur Flan was if you didnt take it as an original language you needed to justify where you learnt it (being a dead temple language only academics and "Indianna Jones" types can speak it) but that didnt extend as far as needing a specific AR/cert. The most common way in Perrenland to learn it seems to be from a kondakanen spirit of some ancient deceased ur flan speaker however my understanding is that simply having your GM note on an AR you have met someone in game that can teach it should suffice to invest skill points and take it as a language the next time you level. meanwhile, MY understanding of urflan... is flawless :D of course, comrehend languages is pretty easy to come by. its rare that theres anything particularly vital writen in a language no1 speaks, but on the off chance there is, 1 scroll would do the trick.
Arvagor 10-29-06, 06:40 PM	The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, page 12. "The druid's tongue of the Flanaess shares roots with Flan, but it specialized and static, focusing only on the natural world and agriculture".I'm with _m_ ... Just as in the real world, "shares roots with" doesn't necessarily mean "descended from". One can say that the Romance languages (French, Italian, Spanish, Portugese, and Romanian) are descended from Latin (specifically the Vulgar Latin), which is why a speaker of one of the languages can sometimes understand the gist of what a speaker or writer of another of the languages is saying (because many of the words sound the same, or are spelled the same, and have the same meaning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages#Vocabulary_comparison) ). Conversely, one could also say that French shares roots with Hindi (one of Indian languages), as both can ultimately trace their origins back to the Proto-Indo-European language, a hypothetical common ancestor of the Indo-European languages (of which Latin is just one). By its phrasing, it is likely (IMO) that the LGG reference is much more of the second variety ("shares roots") than of the first ("descended from")... meanwhile, MY understanding of urflan... is flawless :D of course, comrehend languages is pretty easy to come by. its rare that theres anything particularly vital writen in a language no1 speaks, but on the off chance there is, 1 scroll would do the trick.Until you come across the occasional mod that, for some inexplicable reason, states comprehend languages mysteriously does not work on this particular passage, and Ur-Flan seems to be the most common recipient of this "untranslatability". I typically ignore those statements, and allow comprehend languages to translate (note that one still has a chance of misinterpreting the text :schemes: )
mowaca 10-29-06, 08:33 PM	You all have a point about the vagueness of that passage - I don't know what they meant by 'shares roots with', hence, the question! Without giving away spoilers, there are many recent core adventures that have lots of Flan in them, and it IS Welsh. The relationship between Welsh and Irish is probably a better example than Romance or Germanic languages, especially since Druids were the priests in ancient Celtic societies. Like the Celtic langauges, I'm guessing that Flan had many different 'branches' at some point but was simplified for Living Greyhawk into a single language. I actually hoped there was some old Greyhawk accessory or Dragon magazine that discussed this or someone in charge who knows the answer. I'm hoping the the authors of those adventures with lots of Flan in them read this and can give us their opinion.
Samwise 10-30-06, 12:14 PM	Without giving away spoilers, there are many recent core adventures that have lots of Flan in them, and it IS Welsh. That is DIRECTLY related to the primary authors. If they doesn't catch this I'll try to prod some of them into expanding on this. Like the Celtic langauges, I'm guessing that Flan had many different 'branches' at some point but was simplified for Living Greyhawk into a single language. Officially, no. Flan is Flan, and the existence of Ur-Flan in LG is a change to what appears in published canon. Unofficially, that is the conventional wisdom for most of the Greytalk crowd. The natural question here is, "Well who the heck are they, and why the heck do they matter?" The answer is: because one is Gary Holian, one of the authors of the LGG, and continuing contributor to Dragon and Dungeon, and another is me, active core reviewer and continued sounding board for Gary and several LG writers. Given a choice, and indulgence of our whims, all languages in GH would be expanded significantly. For many reasons, that wouldn't work in LG. (People freaked when Knowledge (local) became multiple skills. Now imagine how they would react if Common were purged as a language and they needed to "waste" 2-10 skill points to talk to the locals in every region and core.) So barring some serious indulgence, I would not expect any official change, but if you'd like to discuss unofficial things, wander over to Canonfire! and I'll be glad to yak about it endlessly.
Arvagor 10-30-06, 12:52 PM	Given a choice, and indulgence of our whims, all languages in GH would be expanded significantly. For many reasons, that wouldn't work in LG. (People freaked when Knowledge (local) became multiple skills.It seemed a little awkward to me at first, given the way the skill is described in the PHB, but the more I thought about it, the implementation makes sense. I hesitate to use the phrase "is more realistic" on a D&D discussion forum, but consider this -- a person with 10 ranks in Knowledge (Local) theoretically knows a great deal about "legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids" of any region/location on Oerth. But doesn't it make more sense that someone of that scholarly rank is more likely to know a great deal about one particular region/city than they would about the rest of the world? It's like saying an expert at knowing the history, culture, legends, etc. of London, England would know the same amount of information about Hoboken, New Jersey! It's a tradeoff -- I've seen other living campaigns (notably Arcanis) allow you to specialize in one particular area of a knowledge skill (for example, you could take Knowledge (Nature-plants), and know a lot more about plant biology than animal biology), and the Knowledge (Local) skills are done the same way (and have the most specializations), but it seems like there can be too much specialization then -- our system in LG seems to be a nice balance... Now imagine how they would react if Common were purged as a language and they needed to "waste" 2-10 skill points to talk to the locals in every region and core.) So barring some serious indulgence, I would not expect any official change, but if you'd like to discuss unofficial things, wander over to Canonfire! and I'll be glad to yak about it endlessly.I've seen two lists: there's Canonfire's Languages of the Flanaess (http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=663&mode=nested&order=0&thold=0), which seems meant to feel more like a scholarly treatise, and there's the Languages of Bastard Greyhawk (http://homepages.ius.edu/rvest/Greyhawk/GHLanguages.html) which states it is based on the Canonfire article, but is simply a list -- 36 languages, to be precise (I haven't taken the time to see how it differs from the Canonfire list). The only thing I disagree with is Druidic having any connection with Flan, however far in the remote past its roots are. The presumption is that, at the time Druidic began codification, no other culture would have had people who were druids -- the Olman and Touv seem like they would have been just as in touch with the natural world as the Flan, and the elves have been around at least as long as the Flan ;). So why pseudo-Flannish origins?
_m_ 10-30-06, 06:14 PM	incidentaly... i have a question... if a druid lost its normal languages (there are some mods that do it) and could ONLY speak druidic... and you were a mind bender... would you then be speaking telepathic druidic? i also agree that we have a good balance. not TOO much specialisation (ive only got so many skill points) so as to make it impossible to ever have the right locals / languages, but also not so standard that every gnome and his frog speaks the local lingo, and knows whats what everywhere they go.
Arvagor 10-30-06, 06:50 PM	incidentaly... i have a question... if a druid lost its normal languages (there are some mods that do it) and could ONLY speak druidic... and you were a mind bender... would you then be speaking telepathic druidic?Telepathy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#telepathy) only requires that both (all?) parties have a language, not the same language, which implies IMO, that you simply must be more intelligent than an animal -- compare the (Su) ability with the telepathic bond (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telepathicBond.htm) spell, which states "Int 3 or higher" as a valid target. I have always played that the "regardless of language" clause carries over to the (Su) ability.
clannagh 10-30-06, 07:11 PM	As a side comment :) English "shares roots with" and in fact has words in common with Sanskrit, they are both aryan languages. I doubt anyone here could understand sanskrit on the basis of having fluent english.
Arvagor 10-30-06, 07:34 PM	English "shares roots with" and in fact has words in common with Sanskrit, they are both aryan languages. I doubt anyone here could understand sanskrit on the basis of having fluent english.Well that's the point I was trying to make ;) Technically speaking, Sanskrit is part of the Indo-Iranian language group (sometimes called the Aryan group), which is itself a subset of the Indo-European language group. English descends from a different branch of the Indo-European languages, namely the Germanic branch. But that's a long, scholarly discussion that, while tangentially related to languages in Greyhawk, is probably too detailed for this forum. :teach:
_m_ 10-30-06, 07:35 PM	Telepathy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#telepathy) only requires that both (all?) parties have a language, not the same language, which implies IMO, that you simply must be more intelligent than an animal -- compare the (Su) ability with the telepathic bond (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telepathicBond.htm) spell, which states "Int 3 or higher" as a valid target. I have always played that the "regardless of language" clause carries over to the (Su) ability. do animals not have a language? if not, how on earth do they comunicate? do dolphins have higher int than normal animals? surely you could comunicate with animals, even if its just generic feelings and such. else charm monster / suggestion would be kind of lame... you wouldt be able to tell your charmed dire wolverine what to do.
Arvagor 10-30-06, 07:53 PM	do animals not have a language? if not, how on earth do they comunicate?Technically speaking, no; they communicate through facial gestures, body language, aggressive/non-aggressive behavior (snarling, biting, tail-wagging, etc.). Look at any text, or Natl Geo/Animal Planet program, and you see clear examples of how other animals can express emotive content (which is what animal expression really is) without need of language. do dolphins have higher int than normal animals?By the RAW, no. They would pretty much get lumped in with the porpoise stat block, which is "Int 2". surely you could comunicate with animals, even if its just generic feelings and such. else charm monster / suggestion would be kind of lame...Communication doesn't necessarily require a language -- using the Handle Animal skill is a form of communication with an animal, but language doesn't have to be a component of that (it can be hand gestures, for example). Charm person doesn't require a creature to share a language with you, any more than charm animal or charm monster does -- the affected creature will simply "regard you as its trusted friend and ally", which does not require you to share a language. FTR, suggestion requires the target to understand the caster (it has the [Language-Dependent] descriptor). you wouldt be able to tell your charmed dire wolverine what to do.A charmed dire wolverine now regards you as a friend and ally. IMO, that means it would be receptive to commands via the Handle Animal skill.
_m_ 10-30-06, 08:32 PM	so, as a mind bender, you could still us suggestion to comunicate with said dire wolverine a course of action. would it still be subject to handle animal? actually now it comes to it, id best move tis to a new thread, hold on. Charm, in rules form.
garyjohnson 10-31-06, 10:25 PM	My understanding of Ur Flan was if you didnt take it as an original language you needed to justify where you learnt it (being a dead temple language only academics and "Indianna Jones" types can speak it) but that didnt extend as far as needing a specific AR/cert. The most common way in Perrenland to learn it seems to be from a kondakanen spirit of some ancient deceased ur flan speaker however my understanding is that simply having your GM note on an AR you have met someone in game that can teach it should suffice to invest skill points and take it as a language the next time you level. http://perrenland.rpga-apac.com/gazetteer/languages.php#metagame - "All characters created with Perrenland as their home region have access to Ur Flannae as a bonus language." Cheers, Gary Johnson
Maesto 11-01-06, 08:37 PM	Hmm... If I multiclass into druid, do I need to put points into speak language (druidic)?
pedr 11-01-06, 08:51 PM	I believe so, yes. If you want to be able to speak it, that is.
Arvagor 11-01-06, 09:05 PM	Hmm... If I multiclass into druid, do I need to put points into speak language (druidic)?No. Per the PHB:A druid also knows Druidic, a secret language known only to druids, which she learns upon becoming a 1st-level druid. Druidic is a free language for a druid; that is, she knows it in addition to her regular allotment of languages and it doesn’t take up a language slot. Druids are forbidden to teach this language to nondruids.
pedr 11-01-06, 09:20 PM	That'll teach me to post when I should be writing my PhD thesis :looloo: - and watching the hockey.
_m_ 11-01-06, 10:22 PM	so, since it expressly says druids are forbidden to tech this language to any non druids... can anyone think of a way to get them to teach it to a non druid? and what abot blighters? do they loose it, and are they alowed to teach it.
Maesto 11-02-06, 02:20 AM	I was more thinking along the lines of if I multiclass into a druid, then I die and lose my druid level, do I retain the language? Because then I'm not a druid anymore, and could teach it to other people =)
_m_ 11-02-06, 05:19 PM	maybe speakin druid is more like an inate ability than a knowledge. kind of like, if you loose a wizard level, you still have your spellbook full of spells, but if you loose a sorcerer level, you cant just say: well neaturally, i retain all of my mystical arcane knowledge. whist technically a language, i would say its mopre a supernaturalish trait of being a druid, and that no druid = no more language.