Flurry of blow + Grappling [Archive] - Wizards Community

Flurry of blow + Grappling [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gwumph
11-07-06, 02:32 AM Hey folks

I remember awhile back there was a thread on the subject of using flurry of blows while grappling. I have looked high and low and can't seem to find it.

Can anyone direct me to that thread or just answer is it possible to do while grappling.

P.S. if you are pinning someone, can u use 1.5x str bonus (your squeezing the person with both your arms)
clik_ml
11-07-06, 02:55 AM You certainly can flurry while grappling, as it is not prohibited (TWFing is prohibited however). In fact it's a darned good idea since the attack penalty doesn't matter for a grapple check.

It goes like this, you do a full attack while in a grapple, you are allowed to flurry during a full attack. Grapple checks are allowed to be used in place of normal attacks, thus granting you a flurry of grapples.

You do not get 1.5*Str however.
You never get 1.5*str whilst unarmed or while flurrying.
JamesMaissen
11-07-06, 11:22 AM You certainly can flurry while grappling, as it is not prohibited (TWFing is prohibited however). In fact it's a darned good idea since the attack penalty doesn't matter for a grapple check.

It goes like this, you do a full attack while in a grapple, you are allowed to flurry during a full attack. Grapple checks are allowed to be used in place of normal attacks, thus granting you a flurry of grapples.

I don't believe that this is quite correct.

You can make a flurry of blows while being grappled by the FAQ ruling.

I don't see where you can make a flurry of grapple attacks to start a grapple, nor do I see where you can make a flurry of grapple checks while within a grapple. Grapple is considered a weapon by atleast weapon focus feat and the like while it's not a monk weapon as I know it. I don't think the FAQ ruling allows these, please correct me if I'm wrong.

-James
Japangirl
11-07-06, 12:18 PM The D&D rules are very muddy on this, because once you are in a grapple, it doesn't matter who started it. For example, if a monk grapples a cadaver collecter, by the rules the collecter can use its next standard action to pin the monk on its back.

So if a monk can flurry in a grapple, he can flurry while grappling. It's just different wording for the same thing. It also doesn't matter if he's the one doing the grappling or the one being grappled.

EDIT: Oops, I misread the original question. Umm, I think you can flurry grapple checks to start the grapple (ie flurry the touch attacks) but I'm not sure if you can flurry grapple checks themselves, like to get out of one or to pin someone.
Greyson
11-07-06, 03:33 PM This is one of those questions where the answer is yes and no, depending on who is interpreting grapple, unarmed attack and flurry of blows.

Can a monk make disarm, sunder, and trip attacks during her flurry of blows? What about grapple checks? What about bull rushes, overruns, or other special combat maneuvers?
As long as every attack is made with one of the monk’s special weapons (that is, weapons allowed as part of a flurry), the monk can perform any special attack that takes the place of a normal attack. She’s free to disarm, sunder, trip, and grapple to her heart’s content. She couldn’t bull rush or overrun (since those don’t use special monk weapons), nor could she aid another (which requires a standard action) or feint (which requires a move action).

But, grapple is not a monk weapon. Unarmed strike, however is. Based on the FAQ, you may Flurry of Blows for multiple grapple checks. But, grapple checks are not attacks, they are opposed rolls like an attack. Flurry of Blows is an attack roll, not reconciled to grapple checks which are opposed rolls. It seems like such a circular argument.

I'd say yes, you may use Flurry of Blows to attempt multiple grapple checks to conform with the FAQ. But, it just seems wrong.
solbergb
11-07-06, 03:42 PM From experience, since the FAQ entry said "grapple away" the finer points of this debate have mostly faded from tables. I still check with judges, since some still don't like it but the % went from "almost everyone thinks it can't be done, so I don't even ask anymore" to "it has worked every single time since the FAQ entry, in three regions."

I am prepared to run into judges that don't think it works, since the FAQ entry left a "is grapple a monk weapon" loophole but the spirit of the entry is clearer than the wording, and most judges have embraced it with varying degrees of grace (from "It always should have been that way" to "The FAQ says it is ok, so I'll run it that way even if I don't like it" - just like the mixed opinions on the latest Grease and Evards rulings)
ShinAkuma2
11-08-06, 07:27 PM Fact is, Grapple is not a Monk weapon because it isn't a weapon at all.

The fact that Weapon Focus states that Grapple is a weapon for the purpose of the feat only further cements this. It wouldn't have to be pointed out if it was always a weapon.

As such, Grapple should be treated just like Disarm, Trip, and yes, Attack: Not a weapon, but something you do with an attack action.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gwumph 11-07-06, 02:32 AM	Hey folks I remember awhile back there was a thread on the subject of using flurry of blows while grappling. I have looked high and low and can't seem to find it. Can anyone direct me to that thread or just answer is it possible to do while grappling. P.S. if you are pinning someone, can u use 1.5x str bonus (your squeezing the person with both your arms)
clik_ml 11-07-06, 02:55 AM	You certainly can flurry while grappling, as it is not prohibited (TWFing is prohibited however). In fact it's a darned good idea since the attack penalty doesn't matter for a grapple check. It goes like this, you do a full attack while in a grapple, you are allowed to flurry during a full attack. Grapple checks are allowed to be used in place of normal attacks, thus granting you a flurry of grapples. You do not get 1.5Str however. You never get 1.5str whilst unarmed or while flurrying.
JamesMaissen 11-07-06, 11:22 AM	You certainly can flurry while grappling, as it is not prohibited (TWFing is prohibited however). In fact it's a darned good idea since the attack penalty doesn't matter for a grapple check. It goes like this, you do a full attack while in a grapple, you are allowed to flurry during a full attack. Grapple checks are allowed to be used in place of normal attacks, thus granting you a flurry of grapples. I don't believe that this is quite correct. You can make a flurry of blows while being grappled by the FAQ ruling. I don't see where you can make a flurry of grapple attacks to start a grapple, nor do I see where you can make a flurry of grapple checks while within a grapple. Grapple is considered a weapon by atleast weapon focus feat and the like while it's not a monk weapon as I know it. I don't think the FAQ ruling allows these, please correct me if I'm wrong. -James
Japangirl 11-07-06, 12:18 PM	The D&D rules are very muddy on this, because once you are in a grapple, it doesn't matter who started it. For example, if a monk grapples a cadaver collecter, by the rules the collecter can use its next standard action to pin the monk on its back. So if a monk can flurry in a grapple, he can flurry while grappling. It's just different wording for the same thing. It also doesn't matter if he's the one doing the grappling or the one being grappled. EDIT: Oops, I misread the original question. Umm, I think you can flurry grapple checks to start the grapple (ie flurry the touch attacks) but I'm not sure if you can flurry grapple checks themselves, like to get out of one or to pin someone.
Greyson 11-07-06, 03:33 PM	This is one of those questions where the answer is yes and no, depending on who is interpreting grapple, unarmed attack and flurry of blows. Can a monk make disarm, sunder, and trip attacks during her flurry of blows? What about grapple checks? What about bull rushes, overruns, or other special combat maneuvers? As long as every attack is made with one of the monk’s special weapons (that is, weapons allowed as part of a flurry), the monk can perform any special attack that takes the place of a normal attack. She’s free to disarm, sunder, trip, and grapple to her heart’s content. She couldn’t bull rush or overrun (since those don’t use special monk weapons), nor could she aid another (which requires a standard action) or feint (which requires a move action). But, grapple is not a monk weapon. Unarmed strike, however is. Based on the FAQ, you may Flurry of Blows for multiple grapple checks. But, grapple checks are not attacks, they are opposed rolls like an attack. Flurry of Blows is an attack roll, not reconciled to grapple checks which are opposed rolls. It seems like such a circular argument. I'd say yes, you may use Flurry of Blows to attempt multiple grapple checks to conform with the FAQ. But, it just seems wrong.
solbergb 11-07-06, 03:42 PM	From experience, since the FAQ entry said "grapple away" the finer points of this debate have mostly faded from tables. I still check with judges, since some still don't like it but the % went from "almost everyone thinks it can't be done, so I don't even ask anymore" to "it has worked every single time since the FAQ entry, in three regions." I am prepared to run into judges that don't think it works, since the FAQ entry left a "is grapple a monk weapon" loophole but the spirit of the entry is clearer than the wording, and most judges have embraced it with varying degrees of grace (from "It always should have been that way" to "The FAQ says it is ok, so I'll run it that way even if I don't like it" - just like the mixed opinions on the latest Grease and Evards rulings)
ShinAkuma2 11-08-06, 07:27 PM	Fact is, Grapple is not a Monk weapon because it isn't a weapon at all. The fact that Weapon Focus states that Grapple is a weapon for the purpose of the feat only further cements this. It wouldn't have to be pointed out if it was always a weapon. As such, Grapple should be treated just like Disarm, Trip, and yes, Attack: Not a weapon, but something you do with an attack action.