Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Marooned 02-17-04, 06:42 PM	Ok, so I've gotten ONE of my two events reported. When Orcs Attack still hasn't been reported and I'm thinking that there might be a problem with the event reporting. So I go back and look at my AR. The Judge for the event? His name is eligible and his RPGA #? RPGA # 606607, which as it turns out is NOT a valid RPGA #. This strikes me as rather odd since this is the GM that was given to our table, by the RPGA, as our GM. The guy had no books, no dice, and had never even seen the adventure. Somebody brought this guy from home due to a shortage of GMs apparently. As someone who is still in limbo because of this? Don't do people any favors by dragging a friend to the con to run an event that he has no interest in running. This was by far the WORST gaming experience I had and our entire table nearly dropped our second LG event because of this. If you are going to judge? Show up and show up on time. We waited 30-45 minutes into the event slot (after showing up 30 minutes early) to be given this guy who had no clue what he was doing. Now, this isn't going to change my event status, which I am STILL trying to get cleared up, but maybe it could prevent this same thing from happening a second time.
Steve_MND 02-17-04, 07:33 PM	[delete]
Marooned 04-06-04, 12:11 PM	I STILL haven't gotten my event reported...and the RPGA is no longer responding to my email queries. I scanned and mailed the event sheets, as tehy requested and was told it would be cleared up in a few days. It is now April....
Greyson 04-06-04, 01:38 PM	Hey, Marooned. I am sorry to hear about this terrible issue. Regrettably, there are a few, shall we say, "less-committed" people, "working" in LG and the RPGA. Which Region are you in, anyway? Have you contacted your Regional Triad? Send them an e-mail, detailing who the GM and Event Coordinator was. My advice is to get with at least the Event Coordinator to register that pseudo-GM, get his or her RPGA number, and get this event sanctioned and reported. But, the problem is that there are only eight days after an event to validate it. But, this is an extraordinary situation, and I think the Circle and RPGA must address this for you. Again, contact your local Triad, and solicit their help.
Marooned 04-06-04, 01:56 PM	Well, the event was "When Orc's Attack" at Gen Con SoCal. Originally the event wasn't showing up because of the faux RPGA number of the bogus judge (kindly provided to us from the RPGA Judges pool). I've been dealing with several people directly, but now? Nothing. As for where I'm at? Theocracy of the Pale. The two adventures I played at Gen Con were the first and only LG events I've played. Return to teh Ghost Tower of Inverness certainly helped make up for the horrible experience foisted on us by the RPGA team at Gen Con SoCal with our first event.
Wavester 04-06-04, 03:44 PM	Few things here 1 - The Circle and Triads have nothing to do with what goes on at Gencon, the selection of judges, nor reporting of any events there. While we are all as helpful as we can be there is nothing we can do in this particular situation. HQ is the only ones who can setup and validate events. 2 - Your horrible event was not 'foisted on us by the RPGA team at Gen Con SoCal' - Your horrible event was due to judges not showing up. We can do everything within our power to have prepared and qualified judges ready for the show but when 2 or 3 decide to just not show up we are left in a jam and do the best we can. The choice is either you do not play or you have the judge that you had. Sometimes it is almost better not to play (as it sounded like in your case) but the majority of the time players roll with it and cut the DM a little slack as they realize he is just doing his best to make a cruddy situation better.
Marooned 04-06-04, 04:29 PM	Originally posted by Wavester Few things here 1 - The Circle and Triads have nothing to do with what goes on at Gencon, the selection of judges, nor reporting of any events there. While we are all as helpful as we can be there is nothing we can do in this particular situation. HQ is the only ones who can setup and validate events. 2 - Your horrible event was not 'foisted on us by the RPGA team at Gen Con SoCal' - Your horrible event was due to judges not showing up. We can do everything within our power to have prepared and qualified judges ready for the show but when 2 or 3 decide to just not show up we are left in a jam and do the best we can. The choice is either you do not play or you have the judge that you had. Sometimes it is almost better not to play (as it sounded like in your case) but the majority of the time players roll with it and cut the DM a little slack as they realize he is just doing his best to make a cruddy situation better. Now I'm going to try to be REAL nice here, because you obviously didn't read what I said. The comments about the circles and triads wasn't directed at me, and I know that I have to take the matter to the RPGA...if they'll respond. As to your second point? I didn't say the event, but the experience was foisted upon us...and yes...yes it was. A shortage of judges, that is a problem, sending a "RPGA" judge tot he table who has, no books, no dice, no experience and isn't even an RPGA member? That most certainly foisted a horrible experience on us. Indeed, we had problems from that event that were sorted out by our GM for our second slot (a member of one of the triads, can't remember his name, but he was a great guy). As for cutting the GM slack? We cut him a LOT of slack. We were issued our GM a half hour into the slot (not that there weren't other GM's hanging around mind you, they just refused to run Living Greyhawk), loaned him books and dice. The only thing we figured was that we could trust the RPGA to give us an RPGA judge. I don't think that is too much to ask is it? Nobody told us he WASN'T an RPGA judge, indeed, his forged number shows that he intentionally was keeping people in the dark. Is it too much to ask that the RPGA check the Cards or numbers of judges? Is it too much to ask that judges who have volunteered to run in a slot who don't get to run their first choice in events actually RUN SOMETHING in that timeslot? What I saw at Gen Con SoCal was a group of people smugly standing around refusing to judge an event for a full table of players, even though they weren't doing anything. Our first experience with the RPGA Living Greyhawk was almost enough to turn us off it completely. If it hadn't been for a FANTASTIC judge in teh second game we played? I'd have written the whole LG system off as a good-ol' boys network. The fact that during our second game other RPGA judges (not doing anything) kept stopping by and were quite insistant in asking why we weren't dead yet? Way to make a good impression. I've been a member of the RPGA, off and on, since the 80's. I was pretty disappointed in some of the things I saw at Gen Con, and I saw some really great stuff. But telling a player that maybe he just shouldn't play because the RPGA can't meet its responsibilities? That isn't a good argument, or even a valid one. The RPGA had a HUGE playing area, far larger than was required, and obviously they overbooked based on the number of judges they had. But of course, that is the player's fault.
Sieylianna 04-06-04, 04:46 PM	Originally posted by Marooned As for cutting the GM slack? We cut him a LOT of slack. We were issued our GM a half hour into the slot (not that there weren't other GM's hanging around mind you, they just refused to run Living Greyhawk), And people like you are the reason that a significant number of judges refuse to run living greyhawk. Ed
Marooned 04-06-04, 04:55 PM	Originally posted by Sieylianna And people like you are the reason that a significant number of judges refuse to run living greyhawk. Ed People like me ehh? Would you like to make a characterization with that sweepingly broad statement? You mean people that show up, having paid for their event, and expect there to be someone to run the event for them? You mean people who think that GM's who are getting perks from the RPGA should be doing something to EARN those perks rather than standing around doing nothing? Indeed, had we actually had an RPGA judge, I probably never would have had a problem at all. But instead, several judges thought it more important to stand around and talk to their friends while the RPGA foisted off some yahoo who wasn't even familiar with the system. I should add that at this time several of the other judges, while I was standing there waiting for a judge, were talking about the various games they were going to hop into since they weren't judging.... I think that you are a prime example of what continues to be wrong with the RPGA. Your holier than thou attitude doesn't play here pal.
MichaelTLH 04-06-04, 06:00 PM	I see your bad experience and will raise you one: GenCon Indy... first LotGR mod. The 'judge' sat down and says: "I've got a Pokemon tournament in about an hour. Don't worry we can get through this." Ha ha ha, we all thought but... nope. That's what he did. "You are walking along and there's some hobgoblins beating up a halfling and you kill them and the halfling takes you to his village and tells you about how some people are attacking caravans and so you go to..." blah blah blah We sat dumbfounded for a few minutes before one of the players got up to try and find someone who looked like they were in charge. They basically said, "Sorry. We didn't have enough judges. Sorry." So, because we had already planned out our schedule way ahead of time, we certainly couldn't get our money back or change our plans so we decided to just ignore the judge and role-play... or try to. His response: "If you guys are going to keep talking, we'll never get through the mod." We said "Great! Why don't *you* leave... we'll read the mod and not care." He did, we didn't. The End. :D That said... it's not easy to organize a huge con like that and sometimes you just have to take what you're given and try to make a bad situation tolerable... But then I'm an optimist. :D
Marooned 04-06-04, 06:15 PM	Wow, that is pretty ugly. I think it boils down to the RPGA overbooking. Run fewer pre-reg slots and if you have enough people sign up to GM, open up some onsite registration slots. But when I see judges standing around refusing to run stuff and getting ready to jump into games, I get pretty steamed. After all, if you sign up to run enough RPGA events you get a comped spot in a hotel room, you get entered into drawings for swag, you get into the Con free... then you don't even bother to show up? Hunt these people down, beat them...then beat them again.
Steve_MND 04-06-04, 07:39 PM	After all, if you sign up to run enough RPGA events you get a comped spot in a hotel room, you get entered into drawings for swag, you get into the Con free... then you don't even bother to show up? I think you are assuming more than actually occurs here. If you don't show up, then you don't get these; merely signing up isn't sufficient. All of these benefits are based on the judge showing up for a certain minimum number of slots. I suspect those that are this dedicated (available for something like nine slots for the comped room, IIRC) are comparatively few, and most of the judges are people who want to play a little and judge a little as well. But when I see judges standing around refusing to run stuff and getting ready to jump into games, I get pretty steamed. I take it then you are a frequent volunteer to judge at these sorts of events? After all, some of those times when you yourself are waiting around to play you could also be volunteering to judge for other players. If you haven't volunteered as a judge as often as you are expecting others to do so, you don't have much of a basis for complaints (despite the unfortunately regretable situation you found yourself). You pay for the slots, yes, but if that doesn't go off properly for some reason, your beef is with the convention staff to get your money back. The judges, like virtually everyone in the RPGA, are volunteers, and are doing these sorts of things not for the bennies, but because they want other players to have fun. And, just like any other volunteer organization, there are some very good volunteers and some very poor ones. And yeah, MichaelTLH: that is pretty bad. My condolences. :( I've had a few bad experiences myself with marginal or poor judges, but none that can match that!
Marooned 04-06-04, 08:20 PM	Actually, I looked over my Judge activity just recently as I'm waiting for the Judges rewards program to roll out. I'm currently sitting with over 200 events run. Probably not the highest, but yeah, pretty busy and I've run quite a few events. As for running something while I'm waiting around for a judge though? I was part of a full table waiting for a judge, I suppose I COULD have volunteered to run the event instead of play, but I was on vacation after all. As for judges wanting for other people to have fun? Tell that to the nine (I checked our Gen Con photos) judges who, 30 minutes into the time slot refused to run an adventure and instead were discussing amongst themselves about what games to jump into. That is a HUGE beef of mine. I still think the primary problem is that the RPGA is overbooking events beyond their judge resources. Of course, if the judges would run events there most likely would have been no problem.
WCrawford 04-08-04, 06:22 AM	Marooned, Might I suggest that you stay away from big cons? Over the years I've heard too many stories similar to this and I do the exactly that, stay away. Now I've had the distict pleasure of attending Weekend in the Yeomanry 2 (last summer), and I played in every possible slot (except the first) and the midnight madness slots on both nights. I was unable to play in the first slot due to my having only a low level character and only 2 players available (and no judge). This was resolved by the second slot when many more people were available. I had the time of my life and met a great many good people and judges. I plan on returning this year (note to self: save your money:)). Out of the 8 games I played, only 1 went unreported. My advise, save your vacation time/money for small to mid sized regional cons or even make a trip to Alabama this June and join the friendly Yeomanry residents :). I think you'll have a much better experience. Wayne C.
Steve_MND 04-08-04, 11:42 AM	Actually, I looked over my Judge activity just recently as I'm waiting for the Judges rewards program to roll out. I'm currently sitting with over 200 events run. Probably not the highest, but yeah, pretty busy and I've run quite a few events. Excellent! As for running something while I'm waiting around for a judge though? I was part of a full table waiting for a judge, I suppose I COULD have volunteered to run the event instead of play, but I was on vacation after all. Well, I didn't mean for you to eat the mod so much as I meant that most of the judges at the big cons are also 'on vacation,' as it were, judging some and playing some. if they've been released from the slot they were scheduled to judge, there's no reason why they can't try and get into a table themselves. As for judges wanting for other people to have fun? Tell that to the nine (I checked our Gen Con photos) judges who, 30 minutes into the time slot refused to run an adventure and instead were discussing amongst themselves about what games to jump into. That is a HUGE beef of mine. Actually, there's no reason to be upset with these judge (at least based on what little info I have here). I'm not sure about GenCon SoCal, but at Winter Fantasy and GenCon Indy, I beleive that if they didn't have any more players fifteen minutes after the slot was supposed to start, the marshalls would release any extra judges they still had waiting. Players who were late to their slots were lucky if a judge was available by that point. If they've already been released, then those judges were well within their rights to try and get a game of their own. If they were released before the time limit was up, then the marshall screwed up. Might I suggest that you stay away from big cons? Over the years I've heard too many stories similar to this and I do the exactly that, stay away. Actually, Wayne has a good point. The big cons are not for everybody. Myself, I really only go to them as a player for certain con-only events (why bother rushing about like a chicken with it's head cut off to get a seat at a Core module premier when I can just play it at home with my usual gang of players a month or so later?); otherwise, I'm there as a judge. As a player, I much porefer the local regional cons. I still get to play with people I haven't played with before, but it's generally run and judged by people who are more familiar with the mods and the region, etc., and it is much easier to avoid known problem judges. There will always be a certain number of problem judges and problem players in any Living campaign, and while it's easy to avoid them locally (word gets around, after all), at a big con it's virtually impossible to know who's good and who's not worth your time.
Marooned 04-08-04, 12:18 PM	Originally posted by Steve_MND Excellent! Well yeah, if I wasn't running RPGA events I'd not really have grounds to complain. Well, I didn't mean for you to eat the mod so much as I meant that most of the judges at the big cons are also 'on vacation,' as it were, judging some and playing some. if they've been released from the slot they were scheduled to judge, there's no reason why they can't try and get into a table themselves. Actually, there's no reason to be upset with these judge (at least based on what little info I have here). I'm not sure about GenCon SoCal, but at Winter Fantasy and GenCon Indy, I beleive that if they didn't have any more players fifteen minutes after the slot was supposed to start, the marshalls would release any extra judges they still had waiting. Players who were late to their slots were lucky if a judge was available by that point. If they've already been released, then those judges were well within their rights to try and get a game of their own. If they were released before the time limit was up, then the marshall screwed up. Ok, I can understand that. However the event was at 8 am, we arrived 15 minutes early and had a complete table waiting from 8am on... I can understand wanting to get into a table, but shouldn't there be judges as the tables awaiting GMs first? I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm sure they were on vacation too, but as volunteers shouldn't they discharge that responsibility first? Actually, Wayne has a good point. The big cons are not for everybody. Myself, I really only go to them as a player for certain con-only events (why bother rushing about like a chicken with it's head cut off to get a seat at a Core module premier when I can just play it at home with my usual gang of players a month or so later?); otherwise, I'm there as a judge. I think Wayne might have a point as well. While I'm not going to avoid the large cons, I think I might avoid the RPGA at large cons. Don't get me wrong, this didn't spoil Gen Con SoCal for us, it just left a real rotten taste from the RPGA. We played in two RPGA events...nearly dropping the second after the horrible experience we had witht he first. Of course, the second adventure was a feature and was fantastic. But we could easily have played in some of the other games being run. Indeed, the ONLY bad experience we had at Gen Con SoCal was that RPGA event. I think that is what frustrates me so much. I've been a member of the RPGA for what seems like forever (back in the day of the RPGA Open tournament "Gypsy") and now that I'm married I've gotten my wife into gaming. I got her to join the RPGA and was looking forward to the caliber of adventure and play that I remembered from years ago. It was embarrassing, hugely so. The other stunner though? Somebody brought this guy in. Think about this, he wasn't an RPGA volunteer judge, he wasn't even a member of the RPGA, yet he showed up wearing a RPGA judge shirt and walked in to run an event. This gets back to why I think Event staff should be checking RPGA cards ehh?
Steve_MND 04-08-04, 12:48 PM	Ok, I can understand that. However the event was at 8 am, we arrived 15 minutes early and had a complete table waiting from 8am on... I can understand wanting to get into a table, but shouldn't there be judges as the tables awaiting GMs first? I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm sure they were on vacation too, but as volunteers shouldn't they discharge that responsibility first? Well, without knowing exactly what was going on with the marshalls, etc., I can't really say. Should you have had a judge? Of course, especially if you were there early. That said, this past genCon SoCal was the first ever, IIRC, so there was bound to be problems (which there obviously was). Doesn't justify the unfortunate experience you had, but it does explain it somewhat, perhaps. I think Wayne might have a point as well. While I'm not going to avoid the large cons, I think I might avoid the RPGA at large cons. Don't get me wrong, this didn't spoil Gen Con SoCal for us, it just left a real rotten taste from the RPGA. We played in two RPGA events...nearly dropping the second after the horrible experience we had witht he first. Of course, the second adventure was a feature and was fantastic. But we could easily have played in some of the other games being run. Indeed, the ONLY bad experience we had at Gen Con SoCal was that RPGA event. Just about everybody has a horrible event like that. My first RPGA event ever was an LC event back at GenCon a couple of years ago. The event was so horrible for me, I almost decided never to bother with the RPGA as well. Luckily, I decided to try LG instead, and ended up having an absolutely great time here in Geoff. I'm glad I didn't write the whole thing thing off after the fiurst bad experience, and while I've had a handful of unfortunate events since, I also understand that in any volunteer group, there will be the entire range of volunteers -- some great, some absolutely horrible. Most of them, luckily, fall in the midrange, and at the big cons, it's basically luck of the draw. As I mentioned, locally, you can pick and choose a little bit more (there are only two people I have ever gamed with in LG that I would literally get up and walk away from the table should they ever sit down at my table, whether or not I was playing or judge, or whether or not they were playing or judging). I think that is what frustrates me so much. I've been a member of the RPGA for what seems like forever (back in the day of the RPGA Open tournament "Gypsy") and now that I'm married I've gotten my wife into gaming. I got her to join the RPGA and was looking forward to the caliber of adventure and play that I remembered from years ago. It was embarrassing, hugely so. Well, that was your first mistake (although certainly an understandable one). The RPGA is not, and hasn't been for some years, the same organization it used to be. Ever since 3.0, it's essentially a marketing arm of Wizards. Which I'm fine with, as long as people are aware of that fact. Coming in under the assumption that it was the same it used to be ten, fifteen years ago, yeah, I can see where that was a major surprise. The other stunner though? Somebody brought this guy in. Think about this, he wasn't an RPGA volunteer judge, he wasn't even a member of the RPGA, yet he showed up wearing a RPGA judge shirt and walked in to run an event. This gets back to why I think Event staff should be checking RPGA cards ehh? Well, although this probably won't make you feel any better, but things would not have been any different even if he was a member. Any slob, literally, can be a member, and any member, literally, can be a judge. Ergo, any slob can be a judge. That's needed, to a certain degree, because there are hundreds of more people who want to play than there are people willing to judge.
Denise 04-08-04, 12:54 PM	The thing that hasn't been brought up here is that each slot runs a variety of Living Campaigns. Living Greyhawk, Living Force, Legacy of the Green Regent, Living Spycraft, Living Death, etc etc. So most likely if there were judges standing around, it was because they were scheduled to judge some other game system and they're not familiar with LG. Now while it would have been better to have them run than perhaps the guy who had no judging experience whatsoever, judges from other module systems don't get any extra "comp" for eating a module and judging it. Personally I play 3 of the campaigns listed above and I only slot 0'd the LF so that I could judge that. I ended up running a slot of LotGR cold so that people could play after playing it the previous night, but that's not everyone's cup of tea. Generally if you judge a particular campaign a lot you'd rather have someone who's not familiar with the system that you can help than having someone who's familiar with the system have to eat a module. Gencon Socal was a little bumpy in the mustering area, but from all reports it went better at WF. As for Living Greyhawk, it's a hard campaign. You tend to die a lot in normal modules and specials tend to be 3x as hard as normal modules, which would be the reason why people were wandering by asking if you'd died yet. Generally specials have a 30-40% kill rate per table. Denise
Marooned 04-08-04, 01:00 PM	Originally posted by Steve_MND Well, although this probably won't make you feel any better, but things would not have been any different even if he was a member. Any slob, literally, can be a member, and any member, literally, can be a judge. Ergo, any slob can be a judge. That's needed, to a certain degree, because there are hundreds of more people who want to play than there are people willing to judge. Actually, while the event still would have been horrible, at least it would have been reported. As it stands, all these months later, I'm still trying to get credit for the event. I've jumped through every hoop the RPGA has asked me to, they simply have stopped responding to my mails.
Marooned 04-08-04, 01:03 PM	Originally posted by Denise As for Living Greyhawk, it's a hard campaign. You tend to die a lot in normal modules and specials tend to be 3x as hard as normal modules, which would be the reason why people were wandering by asking if you'd died yet. Generally specials have a 30-40% kill rate per table. Denise I dunno, our table of first level characters (without a caster...ugh) survived both adventures, including Return to the Ghost Tower. It was rough, and we also did a fair amount of running.... Of course if something is so casualty heavy, maybe the adventures need to be looked at again. It seems to me indicative of the old GM vs the Players mentality that was so rampant among my gaming group 20-some years ago.
Denise 04-08-04, 01:41 PM	No, it's just indicative that LG is supposed to be a gritty hard campaign. LF is a cinematic action campaign. LotGR is somewhere in between. It's flavor mostly. You guys didn't die because you did the smart thing and ran when you knew you couldn't handle it. Most LG players don't play that way. The other reason that SoCal events haven't been reported is that they had a database crash after each day of reporting for Socal. I still only have half of my playing and judging reported as well. I would guess that the web monkeys are just really behind. Denise
Steve_MND 04-08-04, 01:58 PM	Gencon Socal was a little bumpy in the mustering area, but from all reports it went better at WF. Are you talking about this past January's WF, or the year before? This year's WF went very smoothly in mustering (almost astonishingly so). In fact, a lot of people said it mustered better this year that most of the local cons they've been too. Of course, the cardinal rule for all con mustering, small and large, still holds true: self-mustering makes things go _so_ much smoother. If you already have gotten a well-balanced table of six ready and able to sit down immediately when the marshal comes around, it goes far more smoothly. Mind you, it of course takes some planning to do that (and virtually requires you get there early to talk to people), but it's so worth it. Of course if something is so casualty heavy, maybe the adventures need to be looked at again. It seems to me indicative of the old GM vs the Players mentality that was so rampant among my gaming group 20-some years ago. Well, the LG specials are explicitly designed to much much harder than the normal adventures, but the rewards tend to be commensurate as well. As to the rest of LG, I honestly don't think it's as dangerous as most people make it out to be. Yes, it is a little more dangerous, but again, that's by design. There's no shame in saying "You know, I think we're over our head here, and should pull out." I strongly suspect that the majority of people that are struck by the lethality of the modules are exagerating it a bit -- a lot of people complain about how they almost died to X, and it was clearly too difficult for that APL, but then again -- they survived, didn't they? If the module is such that you were on the edge of your seat, and managed to win by a narrow margin, then I think that's about right. At least one time per game, each player should be truly concerned that their character may well die/fail. If not, then it's not really challenging. Not to say that all points of a module should be white-knuckle horror all the way through, mind you. Just that there has to be a real element of possible failure involved, or else there's no thrill to being victorious. That said, the older LG modules in the library (early year 3 mods, mostly) were written under an earlier set of authoring guidelines that pretty much forced significant combat into every mod, and lots and lots of it. The more combat you put in a module (as opposed to social or diplomatic situations), the deadlier the game is going to be simply because there are more opportunities to be brutally killed. Luckily, the more recent modules are showing a tendency to be a little more 'balanced' in terms of encounters and moving somewhat away from the 'all combat, all the time' mentality of the Y2 modules and such. of course, LG has gone through so many changes in 'tone' and 'flavor' during the four years it's been around, it's almost laughable sometimes. :) As to the old "GM vs the Players mentality" you were talking about, Marooned, that's going to be found to some degree in every gaming group, every campaign, and every con. It's been around as long as gaming has been, and I don't see it disappearing any time soon (more's the pity). The better judges realize that you're there for the players, not aginst the players, and your goal is not to kill them, but to provide them with a challenging, fair and above all, entertaining session... not to put more notches in their DMG. Again, those kind of judges that like to brag about their PC 'kill numbers' are those that you learn to avoid, both in home campaigns and in Living campaigns.
Marooned 04-08-04, 03:47 PM	Originally posted by Steve_MND As to the old "GM vs the Players mentality" you were talking about, Marooned, that's going to be found to some degree in every gaming group, every campaign, and every con. It's been around as long as gaming has been, and I don't see it disappearing any time soon (more's the pity). The better judges realize that you're there for the players, not aginst the players, and your goal is not to kill them, but to provide them with a challenging, fair and above all, entertaining session... not to put more notches in their DMG. Again, those kind of judges that like to brag about their PC 'kill numbers' are those that you learn to avoid, both in home campaigns and in Living campaigns. [/B] If only more people understood that. On another note, I finally heard back from the RPGA again and it seems that the problem has now been passed on to Ian Richards though I've also been told that I may never get credit for the adventure.