Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Puggle Halfwine 04-27-07, 09:39 AM	Hey guys, I've been thinking about this today- what about a special mission which was deliberately designed to be adaptable to any character? Such a mod would require a great deal of GM preparation and a lot of information input from the player(s), but basically the mod would be a set of 'anyplots' which would all relate to a handout for the PCs (given out, answered and returned before the game begins), along with a series of potential encounters (of which the GM would be instructed to run two or three during the module). GMs would, of course, be permitted to craft their own anyplots- but these would require triad approval. Anyplots should be short (a paragraph or two) and should not impact on the campaign or region in any significant way (relating only to the characters). What do you guys think?
clik_ml 04-27-07, 09:51 AM	While winding down and drinking some of the pub's finest [insert character's favorite beverage] after your latest adventure... a shady looking character sidles up beside you. "So I hear you're that big shot, [insert character's name], and you've been asking about the secret of [insert whatever goodie the character wants access to]. Too bad. You'll never make it out of this bar alive." [commence bar fight encounter] God, if only every adventure started like that.
redgamer 04-27-07, 09:59 AM	I think this is a good idea depending on how its used. If its used as a writers aid then cool. If its used to produce scores of second rate special mission then bad. I see something like this and think he it helps people write special missions and doesn't take away triad contol. To me its a win win. But I don't really see it being adopted. Basically there are two ways to get a special mission: have a friend write it and give it to the triad/special mission POC or ask the triad/special mission POC to find someone to write it. Each region will prefer one over the other depending on their relative value of lessening work load versus lessening percieved favoratism. At least on region (keoland)is starting to make modular special missions similar to what you suggest however I doubt they will combine gm and author or let you choose the author except as a last resort.
Puggle Halfwine 04-27-07, 10:06 AM	That's basically the idea. The 'module' basically forms the basis for the generic special mission which is primarily constructed by the GM. It basically allows your average GM to craft a module without worrying about encounters, large amounts of boxed text, plot ideas etc.
Dr.Cornelius 05-02-07, 04:56 AM	I have always thought that Special Missions, while well-intentioned, are one of the worst features of LG. The Triad has better things to do with their time. Why should the Triad care about the needs or ambitions of a single PC? The Triad's time is better spent writing mods for everyone, organizing conventions, etc. "Special" smacks of favoritism. However hard they try, the Triads are people too and will tend to favor their friends, girlfriends, etc. What is the criteria for getting a request approved and put into the queue for a mod to be designed? FIFO? Most deserving? And who decides which individual request is most deserving? It seems to me that Special Missions were meant to add flexibility to LG but in practice have fairness issues regarding access to the Triad's limited and valuable time. One of the best aspects of LG is that it is meant to be a level playing field. Lets do away with Special Missions and keep it that way. Here is a fairer and more positive alternative: Players submit requests to the Triad. Typical requests are I want <persistent negative condition> removed from my character I want access to <PrC/Feat/Spell/Item> Triad removes any obviously problematic requests from the list. Requests are randomly sprinkled throughout regional/metaregional mods in development. Discretion can be used in pairing access with thematically appropriate mods, etc. When the mods are released, everyone has a shot, not just special people. There could even be a mechanism for hinting at which mods to play. For example, if your character is interested in the path of <insert NONC PrC> then she should pursue the <insert name> series of regional adventures. This solution would also likely reduce the time required for an interested character to embark on the mission.
gomeztoo 05-02-07, 07:49 AM	I understand the concerns, but that proposal doesn't work. It turns the Special Mission into a 'request for goodies', with the triad telling the player where he can find the goodies. A scenario's goal now risks turning from furthering the regional plotline into providing a means to cough up items/feats/whatever access. It doesn't solve favorism either - in fact, it makes it worse, as now players request goods and get it delivered on a basis that is nearly impossible to scrutinize (while it is easy to determine who gets a SM or not). Finally, while SMs can be used to gain access, they are also a way to have PCs achieve something that is personally significant or unique. Some of this can't easily be done this way. Ofcourse, triads do not have a lot of time, and that means they have to be selective with an SM. I trust though that selection is based on what would fit the region, and on what delivers a good or fun idea. Proposing something workable or interesting goes a long way to get a SM approved. If you wish to minimize the chance of time constraints playing up, try to find someone willing to write a SM scenario beforehand.
JohnduBois 05-02-07, 10:07 AM	I have always thought that Special Missions, while well-intentioned, are one of the worst features of LG. The Triad has better things to do with their time. Why should the Triad care about the needs or ambitions of a single PC? The Triad's time is better spent writing mods for everyone, organizing conventions, etc. The Triads don't have to write special missions - many of ours are farmed out to others to write, in particular volunteers who coordinate meta-orgs. Moreover, in many regions, the Triads neither write the majority of the regional mods nor organize conventions. For instance, in Furyondy right now, the only adventures being written by Triad members are ones where the Triad member wanted to be the author of a particular plot element, and the only conventions in our region run by a Triad member were already run by that individual before he became Triad. "Special" smacks of favoritism. However hard they try, the Triads are people too and will tend to favor their friends, girlfriends, etc. What is the criteria for getting a request approved and put into the queue for a mod to be designed? FIFO? Most deserving? And who decides which individual request is most deserving? Any system where the players get to request access could potentially have a problem with favoritism. It seems to me that Special Missions were meant to add flexibility to LG but in practice have fairness issues regarding access to the Triad's limited and valuable time. One of the best aspects of LG is that it is meant to be a level playing field. Lets do away with Special Missions and keep it that way. Any region that has a problem keeping Special Missions a level playing field is going to have problems keeping their region a level playing field as a whole. In fact, the regional system itself encourages an unlevel playing field, as there are some regions and metaregions that hand out far different power levels of access. Here is a fairer and more positive alternative: Players submit requests to the Triad. Typical requests are I want <persistent negative condition> removed from my character I want access to <PrC/Feat/Spell/Item> Triad removes any obviously problematic requests from the list. Requests are randomly sprinkled throughout regional/metaregional mods in development. Discretion can be used in pairing access with thematically appropriate mods, etc. I fail to understand how this is any less favoritistic than Special Missions; you're essentially letting the player base dictate AR access. When the mods are released, everyone has a shot, not just special people. There could even be a mechanism for hinting at which mods to play. For example, if your character is interested in the path of <insert NONC PrC> then she should pursue the <insert name> series of regional adventures. This solution would also likely reduce the time required for an interested character to embark on the mission. I, for one, am dead set against providing that nature of AR spoiler information in a blurb. The players should use the blurb to determing which characters are appropriate thematically and plot-wise for a given adventure or story, NOT to telegraph what might be on an AR. Do I think the Special Mission system is perfect? No. But it requires a player to go through extra effort to get the access they request. The Triads have the ability to limit the missions in the way they see appropriate (for example, in Furyondy almost all special missions are tied to playing a previous adventure or being a member of one or more specific meta-orgs). Much like anything, the system is just as balanced as the people managing the system are.
Britt 05-02-07, 10:42 AM	People bandy about the "favoritism" idea as a disphemism all the time. I've always thought the opposite; favoritism should be the norm. Why shouldn't people that work to help the campaign get beneficial treatment over people that do not? Of course, if you use nepotism or something to determine who gets to help and then use favoritism, that is a problem; but that's a problem with nepotism, not favoritism.
just_be_glad_now 05-02-07, 03:57 PM	If this is truly the attitude of the powers that be, then any discussion of the weaknesses of writers who are "volunteers" necessarily needs to end. Obviously the triads and circle members have no such encouragement, but if it is decided that people are unofficially "compensated" for their efforts as a matter of course then additional accountability is necessary. To me, that seems like more of a hassle than it is worth. YMMV. Brayden Glad PS: A dysphemism for what? Making newcomers feel even less wanted and meaningful than they already do? For special benefits that amount to campaign fraud? Favoritism always seemed to be a euphemism for these very real issues. Britt wrote: People bandy about the "favoritism" idea as a disphemism {sic} all the time. I've always thought the opposite; favoritism should be the norm. Why shouldn't people that work to help the campaign get beneficial treatment over people that do not? Of course, if you use nepotism or something to determine who gets to help and then use favoritism, that is a problem; but that's a problem with nepotism, not favoritism.
Britt 05-02-07, 04:13 PM	I agree that if someone is not doing a good job and others that are better-qualified are willing to step up, they should be replaced. In any case, though, that doesn't affect an opinion that those that help should be granted preference over those that do not. The problems you are citing are more with allowing people to help when they want to. For example, say we have an amount of available time for developing and administrating special missions equal to 2x. Each special mission requires x amount of time. If you have three people that want a special mission, one is constantly complaining and belittling the campaign and volunteers, one is a neutral with no real name recognition in the region, and one is a convention coordinator for one or more major regional conventions, how would you allocate the time? What if you only had 1x amount of time? How would you spend it then? It's great to say that there should be no favoritism, but that can happen in only a system of unlimited resources. If you have limited resources, you have to pick some over others. The question then is who to favor, not whether to favor. IMO, those that work to help support and promote this campaign should be favored over those that do not. Those that do nothing should be favored over those that work to undermine the campaign. If people recognize the favoritism and want to gain the same perks, they will work to help the campaign as well. To make a hopefully helpful analogy, imagine a corporation. Those that work to help the corporation should be favored (promoted), those that do nothing significant either way should keep their current position, and those that harm the corporation should be disfavored (fired). There are only so many management positions in the company, so you give them to those that help the corporation the most. Corporations that promoted randomly or solely on seniority (first come first served) would not survive long. This is all my personal opinion, not some campaign directive.
clannagh 05-02-07, 07:38 PM	In my considered opinion, approval of special missions should be a triad issue with no questions asked and no need for triad to explain themselves. If triad choose to prioritise allocation of special missions on a "first in first served" basis or "importance of mission to the PC basis" or even a "which missions would our writers prefer to write up" basis that should be the triads call. If you allow people to question who gets special missions and who does not you will open up a very complex and messy can of worms. As for the original suggestion. From a personal point of view I have considered applying for special missions a few times (small paladin special mount instead of the stupid riding dog being one) but in all cases I eventually decided my need for the mission was not enough to justify putting someone else to the hastle of writing a special mission. I don't personally see my characters as overly important in the bigger scheme of things. A more generic special mission would make me more inclined to ask for one.
_metz_ 05-02-07, 07:44 PM	If you know some module wirters, that helps, ask Triad for go ahead, - module writer knocks it up, triad checks it, all good. Thats essentially what I went through while requesting a mission, one doesn't always need triad to write it, just to approve the access.
bitznarf 05-02-07, 07:45 PM	As for the original suggestion. From a personal point of view I have considered applying for special missions a few times (small paladin special mount instead of the stupid riding dog being one) but in all cases I eventually decided my need for the mission was not enough to justify putting someone else to the hastle of writing a special mission. I don't personally see my characters as overly important in the bigger scheme of things. A more generic special mission would make me more inclined to ask for one. You might want to consider joining someone else's special mission, and asking for your special mount as your reward from it.
Dr.Cornelius 05-03-07, 03:50 AM	It turns the Special Mission into a 'request for goodies', with the triad telling the player where he can find the goodies.What do you mean turns a Special Mission? By definition a Special Mission is a request for a benefit not available on a genaral availability AR. By definition the benefit is known up front and is awarded for successful completion. We seem to have very different understandings of the purpose and execution of Special Missions.
Dr.Cornelius 05-03-07, 04:01 AM	I, for one, am dead set against providing that nature of AR spoiler information in a blurb. The players should use the blurb to determing which characters are appropriate thematically and plot-wise for a given adventure or story, NOT to telegraph what might be on an AR.Why do you oppose telegraphing AR access but approve of Special Missions? It is my understanding that a Special Mission 1) allows the requestor to specify the benefit, and 2) the benefit is pre-known. Why is this OK for a SM but not for a regular mod? I think your argument makes a strong case against Special Missions.
Dr.Cornelius 05-03-07, 04:23 AM	It is clear that Special Missions have an entrenched constituency, but I do hope that a coherent critique can influence to powers-that-be to consider reforms. Here is a repositioning of my suggestions in an earlier post: Why not turn completed Special Missions into Regional Mods? The first run of a SM would essentially be a slot zero and afterwards any party that can find a willing GM can play the Mod. This mitigates a number of the issues: 1) The mod author's time is better spent writing for many parties rather than one. 2) Less favoritism (or nepotism, or incestuous clique, or whatever you want to call it). Everyone has equal access to the benefit. Here is the problem that I see - Bob wants to play a Ruthar (or other NONC PrC, feat, spell, etc) and requests a SM. Bob plays the SM and gains unique access. Now Bill comes along and says "I want to play a Ruthar too!" Bill requests a SM... Rinse and Repeat. Do Bob and Bill have to play different SMs? Why not have both play the same one at different times? What about SM's for more unique rewards - like removing a Curse or other persistent negative condition, or recovering a lost corpse or valuable magic item? This can be solved by having the party complete a primary task, which then triggers the reward as a secondary effect. For example, the party does a service for a powerful NPC and the NPC arranges to recover the magic item, corpse, etc as a reciprocal favor. In this way the SM can be reused for other parties with similar requests. Comments welcome - I like to think that I am open to be persuaded. How is the current "exclusive" SM system superior to the proposed "open" SM system?
awroe 05-03-07, 04:41 AM	Why not turn completed Special Missions into Regional Mods? Special missions are both about giving access and about controlling access. Just because the triad has decided there should be one Drunken Master, doesn't mean they feel there should be 300. So you would have to turn the special missions into special regional mods that can only be run with permission, which are basically what Special Missions are anyway. I like the idea of reusable special missions - certainly our triad has confirmed that special missions are the last item for writers to concentrate on, making the chance of getting one without knowing a writer virtually non-existent. Reuseable ones would mean that at least the effort used to create the mission was more useful. In reality, I think it would be a lot better if the triad could give away the special mission rewards without having to do the mission at all, have it take place in character but off camera at the standard mission TU costs. Then granting special missions would not be dependent on writing throughput. Or perhaps regional / core adventures that give away Favours could be generic favours that could be traded for triad-specified special mission rewards.
Dr.Cornelius 05-03-07, 05:02 AM	awroe - you are making my argument for me. I think both our perspectives are shaped by our perceptions of LG and what we want it to be. Perhaps the salient question is not appropriateness or format of Special Missions, but what is the nature of LG. Is LG an open, level playing field for people who do not necessarily know each other to get together and play D&D using portable, persistent characters made using well defined rules and constraints? A place where newcomers are welcome and appreciated. Or is LG a private sandbox for a clique of well-connected insiders?
gomeztoo 05-03-07, 06:34 AM	What do you mean turns a Special Mission? By definition a Special Mission is a request for a benefit not available on a genaral availability AR. By definition the benefit is known up front and is awarded for successful completion. I was reacting on the suggestion to abandon special missions and instead arrange these requests through regionals. That turns a request for a special mission into a request to adapt regionals so they give the goodies you want. Which means it impacts how regionals (rather than separate one off scenarios) are written, and I think that is a bad idea. And, as I wrote earlier: it does not lessen favorism, it increases it. Gomez
JohnduBois 05-03-07, 09:45 AM	It is clear that Special Missions have an entrenched constituency, but I do hope that a coherent critique can influence to powers-that-be to consider reforms. Here is a repositioning of my suggestions in an earlier post: Why not turn completed Special Missions into Regional Mods? Keep in mind that I'm only speaking from my own experience, and I've only personally written three special missions, all from the same region. 1. Special missions are given an up/down vote based on the individual circumstances of the PC and the region. In the four months I've been Triad, we've handed out one special mission that will never be repeated for plot reasons, one special mission that I do not expect to be repeated because it was tailored to a PC's individual experience over the course of multiple unconnected adventures, and are considering a special mission that would likely only be run once because it requires the PC to be a member of multiple time-intensive and heavily pre-requisited meta-orgs. 2. Special missions do take less time to run and write than regional adventures. I wrote three this past week, and two of those three are replayable special missions covering APLs 2-14. I expect two of the three missions to run in less than one hour. Also, the highest page count between these missions is 12, and I struggle to keep my regional mods below 50 pages. 3. Special missions are above and beyond the 9 regional mods that well-behaved regions get to release each year. If the "requested" benefits were to begin showing up on regional ARs, benefits that the authors want to hand out for plot reasons have to go. Special missions allow regions to hand out flavorful, appropriate access without changing the general regional plotline or breaking the fourth wall in plot-related adventures more than the campaign already does. 4. Items requested in special missions frequently are inapplicable to or undesirable by the vast majority of the player base. One player in our region is currently undergoing a special mission to remove a curse that the majority of the PCs did not receive. Another player in our region wanted a special mission to rescue a particular NPC from captivity. These are valid requests, but do not fit into the plotline for standard regional adventures at this time. Rather than making the player wait two years for the opportunity to MAYBE present itself, a special mission allows the player's request to be fulfilled. 5. Special missions frequently do not fit the format of a standard regional adventure. Of the three special missions I just wrote, two literally could not be a regular regional module - one because it is a one-on-one mission due to the secrecy requested by the initiating organizations, and another because it is a single combat tying up a loose end created by a mechanic in a specific regional adventure. 6. (This one's really the kicker for me - if a mission isn't flavorful, we don't allow it) Special missions, from a flavor perspective, allow the PCs to take actions that are thematically appropriate for their characters, yet inappropriate for a full regional adventure. This actually breaks down some of the constraints of the Living Campaign system and allows for PCs to adventure for their own benefit regardless of what the regional plotline is. For a PC to spend extra time discovering a way to remove a curse, help out a guild of wizards looking for a foothold in the region in exchange for membership in the guild, or spend extra time researching a spell or training for a new ability is reasonable behavior for an adventurer in the World of Greyhawk, but the RPGA adventure system does not typically allow this to happen with the flexibility that it would were we dealing with real people in a real world. I think the disconnect in our perspectives is that I perceive Special Missions to be fulfilling needs that cannot be met in regular play due to the natural limitations of the campaign (9 mods a year, certain EL per mod guidelines, number of players at a legal table, uniqueness of request, etc.) I do agree that some special mission requests can be fulfilled in normal regional adventures, and we did turn down a special mission for that very reason this year. However, just as allowing a special mission for *every* special request creates problems, so too does eliminating special missions entirely and requiring that the special requests be addressed in standard play. I don't perceive your suggestion to be a solution to a problem, merely the replacement of minor problems (because, let's be honest, the neopotism/favoritism angle, as well as "private sandbox" issues, exist only depending on the feelings and attitudes of individual Triads - I assure you that in Furyondy, we seriously consider every special mission request regardless of who it comes from) with a problem of unknown severity.
bitznarf 05-03-07, 10:27 AM	John, just so you know, I can't acutally see your sig. I've found these formus to be somewhat random on when they use the sig and when they don't. For example, 'show your sig' is always on for me, but often I don't see my signature. Just a FYI here.
haferka 05-03-07, 02:55 PM	It turns the Special Mission into a 'request for goodies', with the triad telling the player where he can find the goodies. What do you mean turns a Special Mission? By definition a Special Mission is a request for a benefit not available on a genaral availability AR. By definition the benefit is known up front and is awarded for successful completion. We seem to have very different understandings of the purpose and execution of Special Missions. I have requested... MANY MANY Special missions.. and I say from experience... requesting a SM for "goodies" will generally get turned down. If you can't justify an in character reason for gaining access to something.. dont expect the Triad to approve (or create) a mission that does it for you. I have recieved only 1 SM. and it was GREAT... (no "goodies" were requested.. it was pure role playing.. and rather simple premise.. which allowed the triad to "go nuts"... I got several rather cool things on the AR, but all of them fit the story).
RanielK 05-03-07, 03:17 PM	awroe - you are making my argument for me. I think both our perspectives are shaped by our perceptions of LG and what we want it to be. Perhaps the salient question is not appropriateness or format of Special Missions, but what is the nature of LG. Is LG an open, level playing field for people who do not necessarily know each other to get together and play D&D using portable, persistent characters made using well defined rules and constraints? A place where newcomers are welcome and appreciated. Or is LG a private sandbox for a clique of well-connected insiders? In the one and only SM I've had, I gained access to Wild Mage . . . in the Pale. I'm not well connected to the Pale's Triad. I have helped the campaign as a whole (mostly through volunteering at cons and bringing in new folks through game days), but I'm not some well connected fellow. My request for a Special Mission came in only my second year of the campaign. Though it didn't fit regional flavor per say, it did fit the character to a T (after all you can only get washed in chaotic energy so many times before your poor CN fellow changes). After submitting my request, the Triad's response was "You're right, you should be a wild mage. Are you sure you want to be one in the Pale? CN is as intolerable here as NE. Yes? Okay, here ya go!" Short story long (my specialty), I got an SM without being a well-connected insider. It fit my character's backstory perfectly IC, versus a generic cookie cutter for 1000 players who OOC want the thing for the Wild Magic SA. Sure it made him unique, but hell that's just gettin' a PRC to show on paper OOC what was already true IC. Has it hurt anyone else's play experience? I can't say. I only played a few tables with him before he "retired" and that retirement fit IC also (meh, easy come, easy go).
Hariman 05-03-07, 03:51 PM	I think this is a good idea depending on how its used. If its used as a writers aid then cool. If its used to produce scores of second rate special mission then bad. I see something like this and think he it helps people write special missions and doesn't take away triad contol. To me its a win win. But I don't really see it being adopted. Basically there are two ways to get a special mission: have a friend write it and give it to the triad/special mission POC or ask the triad/special mission POC to find someone to write it. Each region will prefer one over the other depending on their relative value of lessening work load versus lessening percieved favoratism. At least on region (keoland)is starting to make modular special missions similar to what you suggest however I doubt they will combine gm and author or let you choose the author except as a last resort. Actually, the modular system we have in Keoland accomplishes two major things: One: It allows all of the players at the table to try for their request. It used to be that ONE character would get the benefit, and the rest would "sit around and pick their noses". Two: Special missions are easier to put together. Each request is handled in a different section of the adventure. Each part of the adventure can be swapped out or plugged in easily, making it easier to write/run the special mission/missions. These little facts were told to me by one of Keoland's special mission coordinators. I can't say it's a bad thing, this new modular system. Now I'm going back to waiting to see if my requested mission gets approved. Hariman