Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pint_Glass_Crusader 08-08-07, 04:21 PM	So I'm playing a Paladin for GHR and according to the GHR sourcebook... Spells that are mentally intrusive, like Detect Evil, are frowned upon. Spells that can be used for a variety of illicit puposes, like Invisibilty, are dissaproved of. However, the use of either type of spell is legal. Hmmm... that could be a problem... but then! Use of intrusive spells does not attract a fine, but the caster suffers -2 circumstance penalty to all Diplomacy checks against people who saw him cast the spell (or have been told he did so). What! "Or have been told he did so!" I have to assume this means with some sort of coroborating evidence? Otherwise as a Paladin I'm in soapy-bubble! Does this not mean as a Paladin (and possibly a well known one, what with the guild affiliations and all) I would receive a -2 Diplomacy almost as standard? I could tell everyone: "Fret not fair citizens, for I have never intruded upon your minds nor weighed your decadent morals against my fine and exacting measure, nor used my celestially granted sight that allows me to view the potential darkness and villany lurking beneath your thin veneer of civility. I could... If I really wanted to... at will... but I haven't." Just because they know I am a Paladin would I not be automatically suspected of using my Detect Evil ability... on someone... somewhere... at sometime... If not, do we therefore assume that the citzenry of Greyhawk does not make assumptions or does this mean that the City of Greyhawk goes to "Yellow Alert" when a Paladin enters the city? Or for that matter, does the Guild of Wizardry report [lesser] members for asking for access to the "spells of disapproval"? They [the member] surely do not want to see the offending material for purely "educational purposes"... and even if that washes once, you better have a decent Bluff skill for repeatedly asking to view "naughty spells". Interesting questions all! I can see certain of my Chaotic or Neutral companions (especially those who are at odds with the Lawful Goodness of my Paladin) ending conversations with important NPCs with something like... "...incidentally [Insert Character Name] is a Paladin and we got all that information after he invaded the targets mind with his insidious holy powers. Just though we would mention that..." I believe all fellow Paladins are in trouble... as are certain Mages and Clerics... beware!
Shieldhart91 08-08-07, 07:25 PM	That brings up a good point, but there are quite a few mages and clerics in the city, who can utilize Spellcraft to determine if that Paladin is using the Detect Evil... However, is it not so Lawful Good if you break the law by using Detect Evil? I think that's the security in the law. But again, that's just one view. A paladin with laws only important to himself, and with an outsider view on society could still be Lawful Good. I feel that the description in the PHB is...too plain.
clannagh 08-08-07, 07:49 PM	That brings up a good point, but there are quite a few mages and clerics in the city, who can utilize Spellcraft to determine if that Paladin is using the Detect Evil... However, is it not so Lawful Good if you break the law by using Detect Evil? I think that's the security in the law. But again, that's just one view. A paladin with laws only important to himself, and with an outsider view on society could still be Lawful Good. I feel that the description in the PHB is...too plain. Case in point .. would a Paladin of say Heironeous feel obliged to obey the laws of an oppressive lawful Evil regime ? Paladin .. "I smite thee evil arch lich of Hextor, arch foe of my glorious deity." Hextorite: "Whoa, hang on paladin dude, its against the law here to attack clerics of Hextor in any way." Paladin: " Ok, right you are, my bad ... carry on then."
Timlagor 08-08-07, 08:55 PM	1) Lawful alignement has nothing to do with local laws (unless their code says so) 2) The Paladin's ability is (Su) not (Sp) so the only indication that it's in use si that the Paladin is concentrating ..which could just mean that they are listening to the conversation or thinking deep thoughts ...very unlikely to be noticed out of combat. (also means it doesn't come under the legal heading of 'Spells') 3) Lying is chaotic so if someone says that they haven't used their Paladin Detect Evil ability often enough they must be telling the truth :)
Zanzibax 08-08-07, 09:03 PM	Wait...if the Paladin's ability is (Su), then it isn't a spell. They're above the law!
control freak 08-08-07, 09:06 PM	THEY ARE THE LAW!
jstorrie 08-08-07, 09:14 PM	Detect Evil is socially frowned-upon but not illegal. There is no way for someone to know if a Paladin is using her Detect Evil (Su) short of using magic themselves. You're probably okay Detecting on whoever you want.
bitznarf 08-08-07, 09:55 PM	3) Lying is chaotic so if someone says that they haven't used their Paladin Detect Evil ability often enough they must be telling the truth :) Chaotic actions don't cause a PC to immediately lose paladin-hood. Only Evil ones.
clannagh 08-08-07, 09:57 PM	Chaotic actions don't cause a PC to immediately lose paladin-hood. Only Evil ones. evil chauvinism !!!
Eric Anondson 08-08-07, 10:37 PM	It is the city of Greyhawk. It is practically governed by the Greyhawk Thieves Guild, the lord mayor is an assistant guildmaster of thieves! Meanwhile both the Guild of Thieves and the Guild of Assassins have seats on the Directing Oligarchy! So paladins might have a tough time being enthusiastically paladiny in the city? *yawn* Move along, nothing to see here . . .
Pint_Glass_Crusader 08-09-07, 02:07 AM	I started this thread so as to be a bit light-hearted (as there have been a few pretty serious and heavy discussion threads lately) ;) And thanks to everyone for posting! :) However my point was this: If the citizenry of Greyhawk, know that Paladins cast/use Detect Evil... do they therefore not assume they have used this ability in the past (at least once) and give a -2 Dilpomancy check automatically. Or do we assume that the majority (though not all) of the citizenry are not jaded and cynical, used to being abused by those in positions of authority [the thieves guild are in the mayors office! Wait... that's just like my home town!] and therefore rightly sceptical of those who can probe their intentions at will? Or is it acceptable to say... "I could have probed your alignment just then... I didn't... but I could have... at will... so watch yourself!" Will the [then] citizen simply reply... "I know you are a righteous Paladin, who could easily... and at will... probe my very moral being... though I am glad that on this occasion you have not and therefore harbour no ill will against you." Or do they say... "You can do what?" Narrowing their eyes, forever-now distrustful of all Paladins, regardless of their sponsoring Deity and proported adherance to a moral code. -2 Diplomacy check for you Paladin... Then what happens when they tell their friends... and they tell their friends?
Eric Anondson 08-09-07, 02:50 AM	I started this thread so as to be a bit light-hearted (as there have been a few pretty serious and heavy discussion threads lately) ;) It put a smile on my face as I imagined various Terry Pratchet-esque conversations, I'll admit.
TWG_Prometheus 08-09-07, 10:32 AM	I've been playing a Paladin gish since I started playing Living Greyhawk, and I've seen a few rulings recently, both old and new, that use of Detect Evil is 'frowned upon'. To me, that sort of seems...obvious. I don't know...I had one party that asked me if I was going to use Detect Evil on our employer for the module...in the former Great Kingdom... Nooooo thank you. I use the ability liberally in dungeons and in social situations when questionable matters arise. (sometimes--it varies) My natural expectation though, is that if I just started slinging Detect Evil around in any bar I sat down in or when I wandered across the street that I'd get a face full of weak evil auras. It's that sort of thing that you just don't need to know. The fact that it takes a standard action anyway and a couple rounds to gain any truly useful information makes me reserve it for when it seems needed. Paladins don't have to be and shouldn't always be the Inquisitor personality type.
KShaver 08-09-07, 02:04 PM	If the citizenry of Greyhawk, know that Paladins cast/use Detect Evil... do they therefore not assume they have used this ability in the past (at least once) and give a -2 Dilpomancy check automatically. If this kind of assumption could be made it would reach a much broader audience than just paladins. Nearly every type of spellcaster is capable of casting those naughty 'now I get -2 diplomacy spells'. By your assumptions they would all have social penalties from the start. The wording of it seems to imply that you personally have to have been caught casting inapropriate spells to get the penalty.
bitznarf 08-09-07, 03:16 PM	If this kind of assumption could be made it would reach a much broader audience than just paladins. Nearly every type of spellcaster is capable of casting those naughty 'now I get -2 diplomacy spells'. By your assumptions they would all have social penalties from the start. The wording of it seems to imply that you personally have to have been caught casting inapropriate spells to get the penalty. This makes no sense either in my opinion. Its not like everybody you talk to is both going to know who you are, and know that you've used detect evil. In my opinion its much more likely and reasonable for the general populace to dislike paladins in general for casting detect evilthan it is to assume that everyone you talk to has both heard of you and knows that you've cast detect evil. Note that this doesn't mean that I think that the general populace should dislike people for casting detect evil.
Demoyn 08-09-07, 03:18 PM	I'm going to walk around the city of Greyhawk spreading rumors of people casting detect evil. The whole city will have -2 diplomacy! I love my bluff check!
Pint_Glass_Crusader 08-09-07, 03:33 PM	If this kind of assumption could be made it would reach a much broader audience than just paladins. Nearly every type of spellcaster is capable of casting those naughty 'now I get -2 diplomacy spells'. By your assumptions they would all have social penalties from the start. The wording of it seems to imply that you personally have to have been caught casting inapropriate spells to get the penalty. Or someone has to report you for such a thing... Like... Citizen: He's a Paladin... he totallly probed my mind, I saw him! Paladin: What? No I didn't! Citizen: That's exactly what he would say if he did do it! I feel violated! Paladin: This is ridiculous... I wouldn't do that! I'm Lawful Good! Watch-Guy: Well lets look at the evidence... you are are a Paladin right? Paladin: Yes... Watch-Guy: You can detect evil... at will... right? Paladin: Yes... but... Watch-Guy: This citizen [who for all intents and puposes] did nothing, says you probed him with Detect Evil... right? Paladin: Well... Yes... Watch-Guy: And your evidence against this charge is that you say you didn't do it... right! Paladin: I didn't... Watch-Guy: So you can use detect evil, at will. This guy says you probed him, and you say you didn't... Paladin: Well he could be lying! Watch-Guy: Soooo... you're saying he's a liar... an 'evil' liar perhaps? Citizen: He wouldn't know that if he didn't probe me!!! Paladin: Eeep! There's -2 Diplomacy right there! This is just a bit of fun, so don't get all shirty... but the -2 Diplomacy rule is wide open for abuse. In fact I think if I'm asked, my Paladin will have a stock reply... Yes... I probed him good... and he is an evil, black-hearted blaggard and should not be trusted... I'm just saying, at least I am a paladin, you can trust me... but him??? ;)
bitznarf 08-09-07, 03:51 PM	http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0228.html
Istaran 08-09-07, 05:01 PM	How do they know that your paladin (RP role) is a Paladin (class). Class is rather explicitly not a tangible thing within the game world. This is mentioned in the descriptions of a good number of spells. I would imagine a paladin (RP role) could be a Cleric/Fighter for example. Or any number of prestige classes. (Due to Code of Conduct class feature though, a Paladin pretty much has to be a paladin.) However, even if they know that you can use Detect Evil (at will even) that's no reason to assume you have been using it in the city. For that matter they might not think about it. You are right about the potential for false accusations, but honestly you could be accused of a lot worse. And there are much worse fates than a single -2 to diplomacy with only the people that have heard (and believe) the accusation.
Grantor 08-09-07, 06:04 PM	Chaotic actions don't cause a PC to immediately lose paladin-hood. Only Evil ones. Well, Evil ones and those that violate the Paladin Code Code of Conduct A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. Thus, lying is dishonorable and directly doing so could also result in immediate loss of paladin-hood (expect table variation, or course).
KShaver 08-10-07, 08:50 AM	This makes no sense either in my opinion. Its not like everybody you talk to is both going to know who you are, and know that you've used detect evil. In my opinion its much more likely and reasonable for the general populace to dislike paladins in general for casting detect evilthan it is to assume that everyone you talk to has both heard of you and knows that you've cast detect evil. Note that this doesn't mean that I think that the general populace should dislike people for casting detect evil. Thats what I'm saying, you can't give paladins a -2 right off the bat for widespread rumors of what they can do. Pretend the penalty for murdering someone is a -14 on all diplomacy checks. Well nearly every citizen is just as capable of murdering someone as a paladin is of using detect evil, thus we should assume everyone in town is a bloodthirsty murderer (until proven otherwise) and everyone now receives a -14 on all diplomacy checks (except those paladins who get a -16 now, suckers!).
Pint_Glass_Crusader 08-10-07, 01:39 PM	How do they know that your paladin (RP role) is a Paladin (class). Class is rather explicitly not a tangible thing within the game world. This is mentioned in the descriptions of a good number of spells. I would imagine a paladin (RP role) could be a Cleric/Fighter for example. Or any number of prestige classes. (Due to Code of Conduct class feature though, a Paladin pretty much has to be a paladin.) However, even if they know that you can use Detect Evil (at will even) that's no reason to assume you have been using it in the city. For that matter they might not think about it. You are right about the potential for false accusations, but honestly you could be accused of a lot worse. And there are much worse fates than a single -2 to diplomacy with only the people that have heard (and believe) the accusation. Well, lets address the main point... 1) I am sure the citizenry of Greyhawk are widely aware of Paladins and their abilites... (according to the GHR sourcebook... canon I believe) the Church of St. Cuthbert runs the city watch... and there are more than a few Paladins in the service of Mr. St. C! the example... Citizen: Damn-it... another city watchman... bet he's a Paladin and he'll probe me to see if I'm evil. Paladin: Of course I shall not citizen. For until I have a valid reason to suspect that you could be evil. I [as a righteous Paladin] would never violate the sanctity of your personal alignment, even if I [only] suspected you of an act that could be considered evil or at worst neutral. For I am [after all] a righteous Paladin! Citizen: He totally probed me already... 2) See what I mean???
KarmaInferno 08-10-07, 01:48 PM	Well, Evil ones and those that violate the Paladin Code Code of Conduct A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. Thus, lying is dishonorable and directly doing so could also result in immediate loss of paladin-hood (expect table variation, or course). This is why Church Inquisitors are sometimes better. =) -karma
Istaran 08-10-07, 02:18 PM	Well, lets address the main point... 1) I am sure the citizenry of Greyhawk are widely aware of Paladins and their abilites... (according to the GHR sourcebook... canon I believe) the Church of St. Cuthbert runs the city watch... and there are more than a few Paladins in the service of Mr. St. C! the example... 2) See what I mean??? 1) That doesn't mean they recognize a Paladin PC as being the same thing, though if the PC is blatantly open about it enough they might. 2) It sounds kind of like seeing a cop driving behind you and assuming they're sending in your licence plate number to see if your car is stolen. Seems a bit unusually paranoid. While there could certainly be characters with such an outlook, I would expect them to be the exception and not the rule. Some characters might assume the 'worst' of you and all other Paladins, while others will probably not even think to wonder if you've been going around probing people's alignments unless someone brings it up.
Pint_Glass_Crusader 08-10-07, 02:31 PM	This is why Church Inquisitors are sometimes better. There are other types of "Inquisitors"? ;)
Norg 08-11-07, 08:12 AM	2) The Paladin's ability is (Su) not (Sp) so the only indication that it's in use si that the Paladin is concentrating ..which could just mean that they are listening to the conversation or thinking deep thoughts ...very unlikely to be noticed out of combat. (also means it doesn't come under the legal heading of 'Spells') The OGL has it listed as Detect Evil (sp). Most of the other abilities of the Paladin are listed as (su). ---> Larry <---
Eric Anondson 08-11-07, 11:17 AM	The OGL has it listed as Detect Evil (sp).You mean the SRD (System Reference Document) lists it as such. The OGL (Open Game License) is the license that gives publishers the right to use the SRD, it fits on a single page.
Madfox11 08-13-07, 04:12 AM	the Church of St. Cuthbert runs the city watch... Is the Night Watch actually the official city watch? I thought it was a semi-official vigilante organization the city government tolerates because it is rather useful when some stupid wizard or cultist botches their demon summoning once again? I mean, better let a couple of powerful hypocritical do-gooders die then an honest hard working city watch, right? ;)
TWG_Prometheus 08-13-07, 11:25 AM	Unless you're in an evil-aligned region or the setting description specifically notes otherwise, I operate under the assumption that the populace will trust a known Paladin until the Paladin gives them a reason to think otherwise. It's in the nature of what they do. A Paladin is the #1 guy that you can trust to fight for you just because you need help, and I think the populace at large respects that...unless the Paladin abuses their powers or goes all Inquisitor on them.
jtrain9801 08-13-07, 06:42 PM	Does a paladin ping off someone with Fiendish Heritage feat? I would say for Roleplaying flavor it would ping faintly and the more Fiendish Heritage feats you take the more stronger you ping or the darker your aura might be. Your alignment doesn't have to be evil ,just non-good to take Fiendish Heritage. In the PHB pg. 218 it says that that Detect Evil goes off HD and caster level or class level ,well what about feats?
clannagh 08-13-07, 07:49 PM	My Paladin is going to get a little sign .. "Warning, this character may detect evil at will. The information obtained by this means is for general guidance on matters of interest only. The application and impact of information obtained by these means can vary widely based on the specific facts involved. Given the changing nature of laws, rules and regulations, and the inherent hazards of interpreting spell like abilities, there may be delays, omissions or inaccuracies in information obtained from the ability. While we have made every attempt to ensure that the information obtained from this ability has been confirmed as reliable, the Church of Velnius is not responsible for any errors or omissions, or for any undesirable results up to and including the death of individuals resulting from the use of this information. In no event will the Church of Velnius, its related partnerships or corporations, or the partners, agents or employees thereof be liable to you or anyone else for any decision made or action taken in reliance on the information obtained from this ability or for any consequential, special or similar damages, even if advised of the possibility of such damages. " Yep .. that should cover it.
bitznarf 08-13-07, 08:11 PM	Would still get you a -2 with everyone in Greyhawk. :rolleyes:
Timlagor 08-14-07, 08:23 AM	Chaotic actions don't cause a PC to immediately lose paladin-hood. Only Evil ones. And that is precisely why I used the phrase "often enough" -you do lose your powers if your alignment shifts to NG and all those little chaotic lies will add up ;). Lying is explicitly a breach in the Code of Conduct too but that has not obvious immediate effect. Detect Evil looks like a classic case of "only those with something to hide" syndrome without the usual side-effects that the innocent actually are adversely affected which you usually see in the real world. Most people shouldn't object to Detect Evil at all (being neutral or even good) ..but if we're talking about the people who choose to live in the city of Greyhawk...
KarmaInferno 08-14-07, 01:00 PM	Here's a fun observation. You know why so many paladins end up being cynical, uptight, and bitter? Because they literally can only see the evil in people. :D -karma
Pint_Glass_Crusader 08-14-07, 01:21 PM	Most people shouldn't object to Detect Evil at all (being neutral or even good) ..but if we're talking about the people who choose to live in the city of Greyhawk... You're right of course... however they may object to my Paladin and his allied mage pal standing on the street corner with "Detect Evil" running full pelt (...at will!) and my Wiz-Buddy pinging the passersby that "sound the alarm" with his wand of "Arcane Mark"... just so we can identify them later. If I'm going to get a -2 Diplomacy, I might as well earn it! and pass it along to my arcane accomplice... he's rubbish at diplomacy anyway! ;)
sethwms 08-14-07, 01:44 PM	A Paladin is the #1 guy that you can trust to fight for you just because you need help, and I think the populace at large respects that...unless the Paladin abuses their powers or goes all Inquisitor on them. Here in the BK, paladins are the number one source of total party kills, mostly because they tend to fight for people just coz they need help. The populous at large typicly avoids paladins b/c they know Iuz is about to smite some holy buns if the moron opens his mouth. I don't think lying is going to get you kicked out of paladinlyness, after all, sometimes it's for the better. If you're trying to convince the watch of your good intentions and they dont want to help you coz "You violated my civil rights" with your "holy mind probiness" then I'm fairly certain you should lie and pretend to be a cleric. "WHAT? I can't do that. Those are the silly paladins. I'm just a priest." It's for the greater good, after all. (So's the occaisional paralytic poison)
solbergb 08-14-07, 02:03 PM	So I'm playing a Paladin for GHR and according to the GHR sourcebook... Just because they know I am a Paladin would I not be automatically suspected of using my Detect Evil ability... on someone... somewhere... at sometime... I intend to just suck up the -2 social penalty. My Paladin of Ehlenestra likes most animals better than people anyway :) and yes, he'll use his detect evil, and blissfully ignore the negative reactions heh. On the other hand, until he gets his mount and heavy armor he will probably be confused with a ranger or druid anyway, because of how he acts. So he's likely good for the intro-mod GH adventures anyway.
Istaran 08-14-07, 04:52 PM	I don't think lying is going to get you kicked out of paladinlyness, after all, sometimes it's for the better. If you're trying to convince the watch of your good intentions and they dont want to help you coz "You violated my civil rights" with your "holy mind probiness" then I'm fairly certain you should lie and pretend to be a cleric. "WHAT? I can't do that. Those are the silly paladins. I'm just a priest." It's for the greater good, after all. (So's the occaisional paralytic poison) That might work for a Grey Guard (though note they still lose their paladininess, they just have an easier time getting it back repeatedly). It also works for the not-LG-legal Paladin of Freedom (CG Paladin variant) whose source I can't recall. It does not however work for Paladins with their decidedly strict code of conduct. Paladins are -not- ends-justify-the-means greater-good types. They are exemplars of honor and virtue to an often suicidal fault. Keeping their mouth shut and letting obviously wrong assumptions by others save their lives is okay, but would probably leave a bad taste in their mouths. Outright lying is a clear (and, as posted earlier, explicitly listed) violation of their CoC. On the other hand, if you don't use your Detect Evil in cities and such, people who know your class well should therefore be able to take your word on it as well.
solbergb 08-14-07, 08:11 PM	"Did you use detect evil?" "Yes" "Do you intend to use it indiscriminately in the future?" "Yes". "You are aware it isn't socially accepted here?" "Yes. And your point is?" It's not even against the local laws. Why should my Paladin care what silly humans think of him, especially as he doesn't think much of the local citizens of Greyhawk either. He has a low opinion of what they consider socially acceptable too. Fair's fair. If they really cared, they'd pass actual laws and he'd probably obey, just as he'll abide by the weapon restrictions.
Fsi-Dib 08-15-07, 05:53 AM	"Did you use detect evil?" "Yes" "Do you intend to use it indiscriminately in the future?" "Yes". "You are aware it isn't socially accepted here?" "Yes. And your point is?" That so sounds like a Gray Guard. :P
Samwise 08-15-07, 06:49 AM	It's not even against the local laws. Why should my Paladin care what silly humans think of him, especially as he doesn't think much of the local citizens of Greyhawk either. He has a low opinion of what they consider socially acceptable too. Fair's fair. If they really cared, they'd pass actual laws and he'd probably obey, just as he'll abide by the weapon restrictions. Just to note: It may not be directly evil to use it, but it is inadmissable in court. If you hack up some bad guy and claim you know he was the one you were chasing because he detected as evil, you would be in a lot of trouble. The use of divination magics in legal proceedings is directly against the law of Greyhawk, and simply will not be acknowledged as cause. Silly Chaotic Neutral deities of randomness making laws while still human . . .
Pint_Glass_Crusader 08-15-07, 07:51 AM	I don't think lying is going to get you kicked out of paladinlyness, after all, sometimes it's for the better. Actually I believe "lying" is specifically mentioned in the Paladin's morale code. However, as any politician will demonstrate, "lying" and "truth" can be very similar things. We could go into a long-winded description about the difference between "lies", "truth" and "fact", but I don't want to write it and [I assume] you don't want to read it. Anyway... Observe... the Paladin being "economical with the truth": Paladin: [[using "Detect Evil" to scan an assembled crowd]] Bzzzz... bzzzz... not evil... not evil... [Grotty Greyhawk] Commoner: Hey you're that Paladin who's affiliated with "The Nightwatch"... I can tell this as I am a citizen of Greyhawk and you are wearing the Nightwatch Tabard indicated as part of that affiliation in the Greyhawk Ruins sourcebook. I have passed a DC10 check with my "Knowledge - Local" skill and you have an affiliation score high enough to make you a "Sergeant" in rank... therefore you are a reasonably well known figure in that organisation, and your distinguishing abilities [over those of the common Nightwatchman] have made you stand out. Have you been probing me with your ability to "Detect Evil?" Paladin: "No I can say with 100% certainty that I was not probing you with my ability, and as that is the truth [from my perspective] I will gladly submit myself to a 'zone of truth' spell or some other means to demonstrate my truthfulness [short of torture] to prove it!" Commoner: "Very well then... as you have replied in the negative with such conviciton, and offered to back your claims with an irrefutable means of assessment [to which I currently have no access]. I have no choice but to accept your word and thereby refrain from imposing a -2 to diplomacy checks made against me. But you are still a Paladin... and I will continue to ask if you have probed me at random intervals, just to make sure you have not! As a Paladin, I know, you are prevented from lying to me directly, and I [as a mere commoner] have never considered the fact that you could be withholding vital facts which would have led me to a different conclusion, I bid you good day." Paladin: "*snigger*... Carry on about you business [neutral or good aligned] citizen." If only LG conversations went like this... :) Anyway, suffice it to say that Paladins don't need to lie, it's why they have Diplomacy (even if they will get -2)!
solbergb 08-15-07, 09:58 AM	Just to note: It may not be directly evil to use it, but it is inadmissable in court. If you hack up some bad guy and claim you know he was the one you were chasing because he detected as evil, you would be in a lot of trouble. The use of divination magics in legal proceedings is directly against the law of Greyhawk, and simply will not be acknowledged as cause. Silly Chaotic Neutral deities of randomness making laws while still human . . . My paladin does not subscribe to the notion that it is illegal to be evil, although he takes careful note of anyone with more than a faint aura, since he is either priest of evil god, blackguard or some kind of disguised fiend in all probability. He does it to make sure the party has adequate information to go on, and to pick smite targets should this person revert to nature and betray us. It's just information, no different from making a spot or listen check to him. He doesn't use violence unless actions happen that require it, any more than he would kill a poisonous snake just because it exists. As for greyhawk courts, he has little faith in them. He'd be honestly surprised if anyone with any pull was ever convicted of anything. He certainly wouldn't attempt to bring "he's evil" into a Greyhawk courtroom, since probably half the people in the room would also fail that test :)