Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rutrow424 02-04-06, 12:49 PM	Redgamer and I got on a side discussion regarding gish characters (those that combine fighting and magic) that we agreed would be better continued here. I am specifically curious about a dervish build that he mentioned dealing out huge damage to 7 opponents in 1 round via a dervish dance. Until shown otherwise, I have trouble believing that this would be feasible in a "tradional" gish mindset of roughly equal fighting and spellcasting, especially in LG. At best, it may have been a 1-shot in a million (but I am more than willing to be proven wrong). However, if anyone has any opinions on gish PCs specific to LG, I'd be glad to hear them. I would rather not get into a huge discussion on optimization, the CO boards have dozens of threads for that, but would like to keep it focused on LG experiences/opinions. I think a fighter/wizard type brings a lot to the table in versatility, but would be very nervous if they were playing up and/or were the only arcane caster (unless you also have several clerics/druids). Anyone else?
Mortepierre 02-04-06, 01:42 PM	You've lost me. What is a "gish PC"? I am familiar with the Gith (and their subspecies - none of which are open to players in LG) but "Gish" is new :confused:
rutrow424 02-04-06, 02:24 PM	You've lost me. What is a "gish PC"? I am familiar with the Gith (and their subspecies - none of which are open to players in LG) but "Gish" is new :confused: As stated above, a Gish character is one that combines arcane magic with fighting prowess (spellswords, eldritch knights, etc). It's a term used on the CO boards - I learned it there. As to its actual origin, you got me. Generally a gish should have roughly equal BAB and caster level (or be able to reasonably function as both a fighter and primary caster in a pinch - 1 level sorcerer dips don't count).
redgamer 02-04-06, 02:40 PM	OK Here is the gist of it. Polymorph any Object into something big, all the TWF feats including oversized twf, arcane strike 8th lvl, quicken spell for bonus damage (flame blade, fires of purity, or something like that), boot of speed each hit does weapon damge (5) + PA (15) + Dervish (5) +arcane strike (8d4)+ spell damge (15)+ weapon enhancements (4, 12 if evil) + strength (10) All number are approximate. I forget if you can add a swift spell as well for another d6 per hit. This assumes +4 equivilant weapons and only one long term buff.
Mommy was an Orc 02-04-06, 03:26 PM	It is pretty easy to do outrageous damage if you don't follow the rules. That Dervish damage is clearly wrong. He's got feat issues unless he loses 3 caster levels or enough BAB not to be able to get GTWF. He most certainly is not a Dervish 10... OK Here is the gist of it. Polymorph any Object into something big, all the TWF feats including oversized twf, arcane strike 8th lvl, quicken spell for bonus damage (flame blade, fires of purity, or something like that), boot of speed each hit does weapon damge (5) + PA (15) + Dervish (5) +arcane strike (8d4)+ spell damge (15)+ weapon enhancements (4, 12 if evil) + strength (10) All number are approximate. I forget if you can add a swift spell as well for another d6 per hit. This assumes +4 equivilant weapons and only one long term buff.
rutrow424 02-04-06, 03:35 PM	OK Here is the gist of it. Polymorph any Object into something big, all the TWF feats including oversized twf, arcane strike 8th lvl, quicken spell for bonus damage (flame blade, fires of purity, or something like that), boot of speed each hit does weapon damge (5) + PA (15) + Dervish (5) +arcane strike (8d4)+ spell damge (15)+ weapon enhancements (4, 12 if evil) + strength (10) All number are approximate. I forget if you can add a swift spell as well for another d6 per hit. This assumes +4 equivilant weapons and only one long term buff. This is a build that requires 8th level spells (15th level caster), all the TWF feats, all the dervish pre-reqs, 7 (I think) dervish levels, Quicken Spell, PA, and polymorhing into something that gives a STR boost. I don't see how all that is possible in DnD, let alone LG. Even at level 17+ you either won't have the feats or the spells to pull this off solo, while still having several dervish levels. Even if possible, to have killed 2 encounters worth of foes in 1 round would have required playing over APL and/or extreme luck (several crits for near max). Gish can be very good, and do get stronger once the p-classes kick in. But a fighter 2/wizard 4 is not overall any better than a fighter 6 or wizard 6, and depending on the situation (player, scenario, party composition) may be quite worse. Of course there are sometimes, though rarer, that the gish may be better. By levels 10-12, this evens out, but I still wouldn't want one playing up at my table or play up with one, if at all possible.
Sieylianna 02-04-06, 05:39 PM	Depending on when this happened, he could have used wraith strike before it was restricted. If he had cleave/great cleave, then it could help. I'm not going to say it's impossible, but everytime I've seen someone talking about this sort of thing, they're overlooking something in the rules. Such as dervishes treat scimitars as light weapons for all purposes. And you can't power attack with a light weapon. Ed
Iswald 02-04-06, 05:40 PM	The gishes I've seen in LG haven't been true gishes in the CO sense. Rather, they tend to be mutts with a few caster levels for whatever purpose. However, the dervish that comes to mind in LG, for me, is a dual wielding scimitar character who has vicious on one or both of his scimitars. One of them may also have, erg, can't think of the name, but it changes the crit modifier to x1d4 instead of x2. The character's damage output is high. But, the player also has a great deal of luck with his dice.
GreySector 02-06-06, 04:05 PM	One of them may also have, erg, can't think of the name, but it changes the crit modifier to x1d4 instead of x2. Maiming from the Miniature's Handbook. Changes criticals as follows: x2 = x1d4, x3 = x1d6, x4 = x1d8. It is a +1 equivalent enhancement. -Michael Eshleman
Lomiat 02-07-06, 07:33 PM	It's not really possible to make a Dervish GISH because Dervish offers no spellcasting whatsoever. Also, whoever mentioned Arcane Strike as a good idea for a Two-weapon Fighter overlooked the description of Arcane Strike where it allows you to add a bonus to hit and damage to a single weapon (or something about natural weapons); my two-weapon fighting arcane trickster isn't going to use two traditional weapons for that very reason (one charged hand and one weapon). Personally, if I was making an LG GISH, I'd go for a Spiked-chain wielding Spellsword/Eldritch Knight. The best weapon enhancement a GISH character can get is Spell Storing. That goes a long way toward making any GISH decent.
King Kashue 02-08-06, 01:49 AM	I don't see how all that is possible in DnD, let alone LG. So why are you discussing it on the LG board? Not to be standoffish, it's actually an honest question...If this discussion can never apply to LG, why is it here?
Medicelious-Melharmonac 02-08-06, 02:35 PM	There are characters like this: Getting 7 attacks a round is not that difficult. I believe it can be accomplished at level 11 with haste or boots of speed. What makes the character (or breaks in this case) is his party members. Example: Fighter/Tempest 14 + Cleric 14 + Wizard 14 = +5 Weapon that does 1D6 + STR + 5 + 1D6 + 14 + wounding 2D6 + 19 + STR + wounding Average Damage assuming 20 STR: 30 + 1 pt Con So it's not impossible but in order to get there you need a lot of levels in two casting class. I find it hard to believe the gish can do all that by themselves under the rules as written.
redgamer 02-08-06, 02:56 PM	What spells are the wizard and cleric casting in this case?
rutrow424 02-08-06, 05:34 PM	So why are you discussing it on the LG board? Not to be standoffish, it's actually an honest question...If this discussion can never apply to LG, why is it here? I thought my OP was pretty clear on the concept for the thread - gish characters in LG. My later post you quote was doubting that the build/combo redgamer mentioned was legal in DnD (let alone LG), and quite on topic (and was mentioned in my OP as the underlying reason behind the thread - if/how a dervish gish would be possible).
King Kashue 02-08-06, 09:47 PM	I thought my OP was pretty clear on the concept for the thread - gish characters in LG. My later post you quote was doubting that the build/combo redgamer mentioned was legal in DnD (let alone LG), and quite on topic (and was mentioned in my OP as the underlying reason behind the thread - if/how a dervish gish would be possible). Okay...It seemed the discussion focused heavily on the specific build in question rather than the role of melee/casters in the campaign... As for the build in question, it requires a 15 levels in a spell casting class before even getting to Dervish, which means the second the character adds another class level he's out of the campaign...The question of "is this an LG legal build?" seems to have an obvious answer (i.e., any build that requires 16 or more levels is not currently a viable LG build)...
Iswald 02-09-06, 09:29 AM	As for the build in question, it requires a 15 levels in a spell casting class before even getting to Dervish, which means the second the character adds another class level he's out of the campaign...The question of "is this an LG legal build?" seems to have an obvious answer (i.e., any build that requires 16 or more levels is not currently a viable LG build)... You don't need 15 levels in a spell casting class. The original post was looking at builds with about 50% casting levels and the other 50% melee classes. If you read the character optimization board, the goal of most gish builds is to have at least 8th level spells, hopefully 9th. The use of 'gish' in the topic is a bit misleading. However, you could have a something like swashbuckler 3/wizard 5/dervish 7. You wouldn't have a lot of spells, but you'd be able to use arcane strike.
rutrow424 02-09-06, 03:58 PM	Okay...It seemed the discussion focused heavily on the specific build in question rather than the role of melee/casters in the campaign... As for the build in question, it requires a 15 levels in a spell casting class before even getting to Dervish, which means the second the character adds another class level he's out of the campaign...The question of "is this an LG legal build?" seems to have an obvious answer (i.e., any build that requires 16 or more levels is not currently a viable LG build)... This thread started as an offshoot from the LGCS discussion. In a thread about Craft Magic Arms & Armor, I theorized that the +2 level rule in effect for wondrous items, rods, and rings should be used for CMA&A, and that the only significant potential imbalance/benefactors would be gish builds. I was ok with that possibility, as at least until the mid levels (10 or so) a gish build is often behind the power curve. Redgamer offered that he'd seen some pretty strong gish builds, including the dervish build that has dominated this discussion. We agreed to move the gish discussion here, and no one else has really taken it beyond the dervish talk (of course it wasn't legal for LG, but I was giving benefit of the doubt as I certainly am not an expert). Iswald (and some others) have tried to add constructive talk on both gishes and dervishes - I'll try to add some too. Although on the whole DnD rewards specialization, I am a big fan in the LG/RPGA environment of having versatility. In a home game, the DM/players can cater to the individuals' desires and such. In LG, if you play at Cons or gamedays where you have no idea who else may be joining you, having the basics covered is very difficult. The mods are not tailored for any specific group, and thus having someone who can fill multiple roles increases in value. This is where the gish steps in. Depending on the build (F2/W4, P2/S4, etc), a well-made and well-played gish can reasonably function as both a primary arcane caster, and as a primary combatant. I at present play a F1/W5 (necromancy specialist) dwarf that has historically been a better fighter than caster. IME, I seem to find a lack of arcane casters when I play, so I went with a slightly more arcane focus than I originally intended. At level 15 he will likely be a 13th level caster and have a BAB of +12. With the MIC rules as they are, taking CWI can help overcome the need for several strong ability scores and save GP for scrolls, potions, etc (more tricks). I would strongly recommend playing down when an option (moreso when at the low and odd levels - a F2/W3 or F1/W4 at APL 6 may be in trouble). Not having much LG experience at the higher levels, if anyone has any insights at how things may differ once you are at level 10 or 12, I think it would be very interesting to hear.
Sieylianna 02-09-06, 06:31 PM	Not having much LG experience at the higher levels, if anyone has any insights at how things may differ once you are at level 10 or 12, I think it would be very interesting to hear. I don't think I've ever seen a successful gish in LG. I'll take that back, I've seen one and it was a 15th level cohort (I think it was the special cohort from Red Tide ?, so it wasn't really representative of cohorts, and it had a bunch of equipment which belonged to the PC). However, it took a couple rounds of buff spells before he came into his own, so he was only a factor in one combat of an APL 16, two-round metaregional (the wizards, mostly, and the archers handled the others). The PC I created for Bright Sands is going the gish route. He started as a barbarian and has added two levels of wizard. Eldritch Knight and Arcane Strike are in his future. I went barbarian instead of fighter for hit points, skill points, fast movement and rage. Either spellsword 1 or rage mage 2 will allow casting in a mithral chain shirt, but both cost me a feat (IIRC, heavy armor proficiency or combat casting). Or I may just put up with the 10% ASF and hope for twilight enhancement (my straight wizard found access). If I had gone fighter, then I would have a bonus feat and wouldn't need the feat for spellsword. Time will tell if this was a good decision, but the greataxe wielding wizard who charges into melee is fun to play, if startling to the other PCs. Unfortunately, the loss of wraith strike will cut down on his power attacking fun. Ed
redgamer 02-10-06, 12:20 AM	I played a Gish character up to level 7. At low level he played like a barbarian. I'm sure the lower BAB and strength hurt but I never noticed it. Low levels characters rely on good rolls more than good stats. When I had time to buff I cast enlarge person and frankly any melee combatant is exceptional with enlarge person at APL 2 and often 4. Later I realized how good Fist of Stone is and used it to have a higher strength than the Half-Orc. Since hitting lvl 7 I've rarely gotten a chance to play APL 8 so I never been able to compare myself directly with someone who has iteritive attacks, but Alter Self, False Life and often sheild and Fist of Stone let me be both a tank and a significant damage dealer. (AC 26 + combat experties and 24 strength with effectively an iterative attack from FoS) I made sure to craft enough pearls that I can usual cast two 1st level spell whenever I expect danger. I don't doubt that other builds are stronger but frankly the only time I've been afraid for my character's life was a combination of wrong place wrong time, bad luck, poor party tactics, and my own forgetfulness (At the time I autostabalized due to a curse but I forgot so I keep getting healed then dropped again). Level 4 spells do pack a punch but are more likely to fail or not be useful compared to a sword and a straight meleeist usually can do either tanking or damage dealing, I can switch between the two and have better skills.
Medicelious-Melharmonac 02-13-06, 02:49 PM	What spells are the wizard and cleric casting in this case? Cleric Casts Greater Magic Weapon Wizard Casts Fires of Purity If the Cleric casts, Recitation Righteous Wrath of the Faithful its another +6 to hit and Damage for each attack.
solbergb 02-13-06, 03:01 PM	The gishes I've seen in LG haven't been true gishes in the CO sense. Rather, they tend to be mutts with a few caster levels for whatever purpose. . Our region has a mildly well known Gish who just retired. Pretty much an eldritch knight build, but he did pretty impressive things with his wounding glaive, his whirling blade spell, his arcane strike with level 7 spell slots, his aability to pop up defensive spells while attacking, etc. Then he authored a mod with an NPC boss-type that had similar abilities and most parties who played it seemed to have significant trouble dealing with the character. They exist in LG, but they aren't common.
rutrow424 02-14-06, 03:58 PM	the greataxe wielding wizard who charges into melee is fun to play, if startling to the other PCs. I couldn't agree more, though my dwarf prefers a waraxe. My fighter1/wizard 5 can tank a bit (especially if he can get shield cast and/or vs. giants), but is more light infantry or tank destroyer than tank - a well timed full PA after a true strike can do wonders. When arcane strike comes into play (and the base BAB gets more consistent) it just gets better. One general problem that I think affects gish more than most (fighting clerics too) - I feel that at best a PC has 1 round to get ready to fight. That means if there is no prep time for an encounter you will likely get only 1 buff, which can be tough when you'd like 2 or 3. If you are the only caster/relied upon as artillery, it's even worse. A lot of the CO board-type builds count on a perfect world where every buff can be cast (when I have shield, bull's strength, righteous might, and divine power up I can take anything!!!) and that's generally unrealistic. A good gish has to be tactically sound and adapt well to situations and (in LG) different party configurations.
Reylance 02-14-06, 06:45 PM	I played a fighter that took 1 level of wizard for the 3.0 shield spell, then went ftr8/Wiz4, and eventually converted into a final build of Ftr4/Wiz3/Spellsword7/Eldritch Knight4. That's more of a fighter focus, with spells no higher than 5th level, but able to cast spells in mithral full plate without arcane spell failure. Various divination spells normally power Arcane Strike. S24 D16 C20 I20 W10 C11; AC 32 (10+9 full plate+4 shield spell+6 troglodyte+3 Dex); To Hit +28 (16 BAB+7 Str+1 WF+3 Enh+1 Heroes' Feast); Dmg 1d8+15 (10 Str+3 Enh+2 WS). I'm building a paladin-sorcerer towards similar ends. Some advice for playing such builds: Necessary feats: Power Attack, Practiced Spellcaster, Arcane Strike, Craft Wondrous Item. Remember that you are not the heavy damage dealer, like that half-orc barbarian. You won't hit as often or as hard. However, you won't be hit as often or as hard. Use your spells for defense. At low level, shield gives you +4 AC and lets you wield a 2-handed weapon. Then, Alter Self gives you a +6 to your AC. You can have an AC vs. incorporeal undead. Your flexibility is important. You can use magic missiles against incorporeal undead, area of effect spells on large groups of creatures, and the like. Your spells won't be as powerful, but the ones you do cast will do the same damage. Magic missile, scorching ray, fireball, and the orb spells are often the right choice, even if you can cast higher level spells. Both the Wiz10 and the Ftr2/Wiz4/Spe1/Eld3 drop 10d6 fireballs. Remember that by crafting, you will save 36,000 gp on your belt +6 and your amulet +6, compared to the barbarian. When positioned to take a full attack, use Arcane Strike.
redgamer 02-15-06, 12:43 AM	I couldn't agree more, though my dwarf prefers a waraxe. My fighter1/wizard 5 can tank a bit (especially if he can get shield cast and/or vs. giants), but is more light infantry or tank destroyer than tank - a well timed full PA after a true strike can do wonders. When arcane strike comes into play (and the base BAB gets more consistent) it just gets better. One general problem that I think affects gish more than most (fighting clerics too) - I feel that at best a PC has 1 round to get ready to fight. That means if there is no prep time for an encounter you will likely get only 1 buff, which can be tough when you'd like 2 or 3. If you are the only caster/relied upon as artillery, it's even worse. A lot of the CO board-type builds count on a perfect world where every buff can be cast (when I have shield, bull's strength, righteous might, and divine power up I can take anything!!!) and that's generally unrealistic. A good gish has to be tactically sound and adapt well to situations and (in LG) different party configurations. Do people really find true strike to be worth it? You give up at least one attack to cast it. Do you really do enough extra damage to justify delaying damage 1 round and giving up an attack? Seems like you would have to do at least double damage for the tactic to be worth it. If you are casting it because you need 20s to hit will one hit every other round drop the monster with insane DC? With rare exceptions if a meleeist needs 20s to hit he is playing too far up or the monster is vunerable to something else and as a gish you are the character most likely to be flexible enough to deal with unbalanced enemies.
Sieylianna 02-15-06, 07:21 AM	Do people really find true strike to be worth it? You give up at least one attack to cast it. Do you really do enough extra damage to justify delaying damage 1 round and giving up an attack? Seems like you would have to do at least double damage for the tactic to be worth it. If you are casting it because you need 20s to hit will one hit every other round drop the monster with insane DC? With rare exceptions if a meleeist needs 20s to hit he is playing too far up or the monster is vunerable to something else and as a gish you are the character most likely to be flexible enough to deal with unbalanced enemies. I see far too many fighters charge in for a single attack and then suffer through a full attack from their target. Unless there is an enemy caster, I'd just as soon cast true strike and wait for the opponent to come to me. It also saves me the -2 to my AC for charging and -2 for raging until I'm ready to attack. (That said, I don't think my PC has been in a position to use true strike so far in his career). Ed
Reylance 02-15-06, 10:04 AM	Do people really find true strike to be worth it? You give up at least one attack to cast it. Do you really do enough extra damage to justify delaying damage 1 round and giving up an attack? Seems like you would have to do at least double damage for the tactic to be worth it. If you are casting it because you need 20s to hit will one hit every other round drop the monster with insane DC? With rare exceptions if a meleeist needs 20s to hit he is playing too far up or the monster is vunerable to something else and as a gish you are the character most likely to be flexible enough to deal with unbalanced enemies. I rarely used true strike. It's still a good spell to have around, and normally was my bonus divination spell at 1st level. If you're in a combat, and you either can't get to an enemy this round or would prefer to have the enemy come to you, you can move half way and cast true strike, then full power attack the next round. Note that at higher levels, true strike isn't as good, since you will have multiple attacks. Sure, you'll hit with a full power attack on your true strike blow, but then you'll miss with all your other attacks. On the other hand, if you're using a scythe with bless weapon and roll a 20 after true striking, you're golden.
rutrow424 02-15-06, 02:11 PM	Do people really find true strike to be worth it? You give up at least one attack to cast it. Do you really do enough extra damage to justify delaying damage 1 round and giving up an attack? Seems like you would have to do at least double damage for the tactic to be worth it. If you are casting it because you need 20s to hit will one hit every other round drop the monster with insane DC? With rare exceptions if a meleeist needs 20s to hit he is playing too far up or the monster is vunerable to something else and as a gish you are the character most likely to be flexible enough to deal with unbalanced enemies. Ed's exactly right - you cast it in the first round (or in a later round where you can't/don't want to reach the foe) and make the opponent come to you. Avoiding the full attack from the ogre/giant/troll/other BBEG is often the best tactic instead of a first strike. I have usually been able to set this up at least once a mod, though I have not always done so - the gish has to weigh the situation. The party may well prefer a scorching ray or fireball, or the gish may prefer to cast shield or another buff. Now if one could get access to the limited p-class Havoc Mage, with its ability to cast 1 spell and attack in the same round, the True Strike tactic becomes very viable.
redgamer 02-15-06, 03:54 PM	For me power attacking for full means only +10 damage. This is less than a magic missle. Its about the same as hitting once with the extra attack given by fist of stone. Its less on average than the attack(s) that miss me due to casting sheild. Its far less damage over the course of most battles than enlarge person. The real problem is that you have to choose 4-6 level one spells per day. MM, Mage Armor, Fist of Stone, Enlarge Person, Pro Evil, Sheild, Blades of Flame, and Critical Strike are all worth taking. With enough Pearls of Power you can cast Enlarge Person whenever battle is possible, Mage Armor all day, and Blades of Flame and Critical strike once each battle. Yes I know I haven't factored in misses. It complicates the math more than I care to do. If I fight something with a high AC I rage and trip it or boost my AC and let the straight casters take it out will I tank.
Paul H 02-17-06, 03:58 PM	Hi I normally play spellcasters. 'Gish' to me means a spellcaster using a different weapon, with superior BAB. Ranger/Warmage is good - you can use any Martial Wpn, use your Favoured Enemy bonus to 'attack' spells (Spells you make attack roll), & can use Wand of Cure Lt Wnds. The choices are: 1) Go Eldritch Knight, swap 1 lvl spellcaster for feat, but BAB as Fighter. 2) Stay Warmage - gain Warmage abilities - no Arcane failure in medium armour, gain 'Sudden' feats, etc. But have BAB as Wizard. Both have D6 HP. I favour the 2nd. Ring of Blades spell doing D6+lvl damage, no SR, but DR counts as from Magical Silvered Slashing weapon - good armour against light infantry! Also Fire Shield is 3rd lvl spell for Warmages. You can see where this leads.... I still do good damage, without entering melee, use primarily ranged touch attack spells (Lssr Orbs), with Int 16, & Favoured NME Human, that means 5D8+5 Dam as 7th lvl caster! (Crit x 2 on 20). Can even take Improved Favoured NME at 9th! (+8 Dam vs Humans) More with Point Blank Shot, or Wpn Specialisation Ranged Spell. But Tank or Buffer I ain't.............. Cheers Paul H