Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Necrochaos 03-18-07, 02:28 PM	I've never created a gish type character before. I was looking to create a more cross classed character. I've seen some spellswords and enlightened fists characters, but I don't understand how to build them. I'm interested in figuring out what they can do and how to make one effective. Where can I look to get some advice on how to build a Gish?
cetiken 03-18-07, 08:21 PM	To anwswer your question check the LG Character's sub-board. There's several LG specific gish builds under discussion at any given time. Or other charcter optimization boards on this website or many others. To ask a question of my own - What the heck is a Gish? I'm assuming that you guys mean fighter/ wizard baised on the content of those threads. But why on oerth are you calling them gish?
Hariman 03-19-07, 03:09 AM	"Gish" is the Githyanki term for a fighter/wizard. It quickly became slang for "melee spellcaster (arcane)". Although there are a few gish types that aren't melee. Mainly Arcane Archers and Ray Specialists. It's a tough type of character to build, but not impossible. The LG character sub-forum has various threads about gishes. Or you could start a new thread, if you'd like. Hariman
Necrochaos 03-19-07, 06:47 AM	Where is the LG character subboard?
Timlagor 03-19-07, 07:13 AM	http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=649 There's a link from the LG board (the one you started this thread on). Basic rules for Gishing: - Don't give up any more spell levels that you absolutely have to to achieve what you want - get as much BAB as youc an - pick up Arcane Strike - Make sure you take plenty of buffing spells (don't even consider Warmage)
Necrochaos 03-21-07, 07:31 AM	Human CG Joramy Str 14, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 8 Lv1 (Fighter) Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Power Attack, Practiced Spell Caster Lv2 Wizard) Lv3(Wizard) CWI Lv4(Wizard) INT 15 Lv5(Wizard) Lv6(Wizard) Arcande Disciple (WAR) Lv7(Spellsword) Lv8(Eldritch Knight) INT 16 Close Quarters Fighting Lv9(Eldritch Knight) Arcane Strike Lv10(Eldritch Knight) Lv11(Eldritch Knight) Lv12(Eldritch Knight) +1 Int Arcane Disciple(Competition) Lv13(Eldritch Knight) Lv14(Eldritch Knight) Lv15(Eldritch Knight) Retributive Spell I've taken some pieces of the builds that I have seen with suggestions from the other boards and combined them into this. Is this a good start for a first gish? What should I be wearing for armor? Bracers, mage armor? Something with spell failure 10 or less? Are gishes meant to be in the front lines fighting? Looking for guidence on how to play them as well. Looks like this will be my ruins character. Also, should I specialize in Evocation and remove two schools (like Necro and Trans?)
Sieylianna 03-21-07, 08:10 AM	Human CG Joramy Str 14, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 8 Lv1 (Fighter) Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Power Attack, Practiced Spell Caster Lv2 Wizard) Lv3(Wizard) CWI Lv4(Wizard) INT 15 Is this a good start for a first gish? What should I be wearing for armor? Bracers, mage armor? Something with spell failure 10 or less? Are gishes meant to be in the front lines fighting? Looking for guidence on how to play them as well. Looks like this will be my ruins character. Also, should I specialize in Evocation and remove two schools (like Necro and Trans?) IIIRC, there is a skill requirement for practiced spellcaster. Can you qualify for this feat at 1st level as a non-spellcaster? (Books are at home). Other than that, it's a fairly standard build. Mithral chain shirt is your friend, once you have access. Before that you can use mage armor. My LG gish tends to rage and charge things in combat. That's not going to be as good of tactic once he gets above APL 4. He's also acquired a wand of grease, so he can contribute when he's out of spells and low on hit points. He is a specialist in Evocation with illusion and enchantment as opposition schools. You do not want transmutation as an opposition school, that costs you buff spells. I'd strongly recommnend against necromancy opposition because you lose false life and vampiric touch. Ed
Timlagor 03-21-07, 08:20 AM	Could use another point of Intelligence. Class Build looks ok: pretty standard. Feats I don't think you qualify for PRacticed Spellcaster at 1st. Arcane Disciple isnt a bad choice but you are investing an awful lot of Wisdom into it. Two of them seems excessive (though I can see why you would want to make that Wis pay) Can you get Arcane Strike earlier? -I thought you could qualify at 6th and you want is asap. CQF is probably not worth it with a greatsword (esp with spells to call on). The lack of Metamagic is a glaring omission. Weapon Focus also seems rather pointless and I'm sure there are Feats that are much better but I can't think of them right now. Most Gishes go for Diviner because they can always use their bonus spells for Arcane Strike. No one should ever ban Transmutation or Conjuration! False Life is too valuable to you imo. Drop Enchantment. Banning transmutation is a really really really bad idea. Combat Role: Yes you should be in the front line. Armour: - Heavy Armour at first level. - Mage Armour 2-6 - Mithral Shirt thereafter. (you really want more Dex)
Necrochaos 03-21-07, 12:38 PM	Human Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 8 Lv1 (Fighter) Weapon Focus (Greatsword) (retrain letter to Metamagic feat), Power Attack, Extend Spell Lv2 Wizard) Lv3(Wizard) Practiced Spell Caster Lv4(Wizard) INT 16 Lv5(Wizard) Lv6(Wizard) Sudden Maximize Lv7(Spellsword) Lv8(Eldritch Knight) INT 17 Cleave Lv9(Eldritch Knight) Arcane Strike Lv10(Eldritch Knight) Lv11(Eldritch Knight) Lv12(Eldritch Knight) Int 18 Sudden Empower Lv13(Eldritch Knight) Lv14(Eldritch Knight) Lv15(Eldritch Knight) Retributive Spell Does this look any better?
Sieylianna 03-21-07, 12:38 PM	Can you get Arcane Strike earlier? -I thought you could qualify at 6th and you want is asap. IIRC, it requires third level spells and has a BAB requirement. I don't think there is anyway to get it prior to 9th since it's not a fighter bonus feat. Ed
Jay_Ibero_911 03-21-07, 01:03 PM	Human Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 8 Lv1 (Fighter) Weapon Focus (Greatsword) (retrain letter to Metamagic feat), Power Attack, Extend Spell Lv2 Wizard) Lv3(Wizard) Practiced Spell Caster Lv4(Wizard) INT 16 Lv5(Wizard) Lv6(Wizard) Sudden Maximize Lv7(Spellsword) Lv8(Eldritch Knight) INT 17 Cleave Lv9(Eldritch Knight) Arcane Strike Lv10(Eldritch Knight) Lv11(Eldritch Knight) Lv12(Eldritch Knight) Int 18 Sudden Empower Lv13(Eldritch Knight) Lv14(Eldritch Knight) Lv15(Eldritch Knight) Retributive Spell Does this look any better? Also, gotta switch first level of spellsword and eldritch knight. Need BAB+4 for spellsword, which is commonly overlooked.
taylorj 03-21-07, 01:10 PM	Human Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 8 Lv1 (Fighter) Weapon Focus (Greatsword) (retrain letter to Metamagic feat), Power Attack, Extend Spell Lv2 Wizard) Lv3(Wizard) Practiced Spell Caster Lv4(Wizard) INT 16 Lv5(Wizard) Lv6(Wizard) Sudden Maximize Does this look any better? IIRC, doesn't Sudden Maximize require another Sudden metamagic feat as a prereq, not just a generic metamagic feat?
Paul H 03-21-07, 02:01 PM	IIRC, doesn't Sudden Maximize require another Sudden metamagic feat as a prereq, not just a generic metamagic feat? Hi Not sure if 'Sudden' feats are LG legal, except with documentation. (Warmages get some as class abilities). Otherwise the prereq is any Metamagic feat. (CA Pg 83). Cheers Paul H
TWG_Prometheus 03-21-07, 06:25 PM	Also, gotta switch first level of spellsword and eldritch knight. Need BAB+4 for spellsword, which is commonly overlooked. Switching Eldritch Knight down to 7 would work, but they're probably better off just getting Wizard 6 in there instead. It's a good level for BAB and Saves, with the only real drawback being the d4 HD...and honestly the d6 one for Eldritch Knight isn't much better. You can get a bonus feat out of it or another spell level at a time when the build really wants more spells. Fighter 1/Wizard 6 or Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldrictch Knight 1 are good lead-ins to Spellsword, but Fighter 1/Wizard 5 is illegal.
Necrochaos 03-21-07, 07:54 PM	Human Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 8 Lv1 (Fighter) Weapon Focus (Greatsword) (retrain letter to Metamagic feat), Power Attack, Extend Spell Lv2 Wizard) Lv3(Wizard) Practiced Spell Caster Lv4(Wizard) INT 16 Lv5(Wizard) Lv6(Wizard) CWI LV7(Wizard) Lv8(Spellsword) Lv9(Eldritch Knight) INT 17 Cleave, Arcane Strike Lv10(Eldritch Knight) Lv11(Eldritch Knight) Lv12(Eldritch Knight) Int 18 Empower Spell Lv13(Eldritch Knight) Lv14(Eldritch Knight) Lv15(Eldritch Knight) Retributive Spell Does this look any better? Added 6th level of wizard. This should be legal now. Can craft earlier, can't get Arcane Strike any earlier.
jstorrie 03-21-07, 08:19 PM	I'd pick Retributive Spell much earlier, it's very, very good for a gish - even if the best spell you can find to charge it with is Vampiric Touch. Forget Cleave, it's not worth a precious feat slot. It is not necessary to spend two build points on Wisdom - you have strong Will progression anyway, so ditch it. I highly advise running a 16 Con if you are going to rely on Eldritch Knight and that many Wizard levels. As you're only down two caster levels, and will be using most of your spells to buff or disable, I don't think Practiced Spellcaster is a real priority - how many spells will you really be casting with level-variable effects? You've also forgotten to take your bonuse Wizard feat. You could go 14 14 16 14 8 8 1 Fighter Power Attack, Dodge, Mobility 2 Diviner: Scribe Scroll 3 Diviner: Retributive Spell 4 Diviner 5 Diviner 6 Diviner: Craft Wondrous Item, Improved Toughness 7 Diviner 8 Spellsword 9 Eldritch Knight: Elusive Target, Arcane Strike 10 EK 11 EK 12 EK: Quicken Spell 13 EK 14 EK 15 EK: Smiting Spell Improved Toughness helps compensate for your low HD, since you'll be trying to front-line. Quicken is good; you never know when you'll have to pop off a Mirror Image or the like to save your fragile hit dice. Likewise Elusive Target is very useful, since you can't afford to take Power Attacks. Retributive Spell is, again, very good - it's Quicken with only a +1 level adjustment if you plan properly.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-21-07, 08:57 PM	I'd pick Retributive Spell much earlier, it's very, very good for a gish - even if the best spell you can find to charge it with is Vampiric Touch. Forget Cleave, it's not worth a precious feat slot. It is not necessary to spend two build points on Wisdom - you have strong Will progression anyway, so ditch it. I highly advise running a 16 Con if you are going to rely on Eldritch Knight and that many Wizard levels. As you're only down two caster levels, and will be using most of your spells to buff or disable, I don't think Practiced Spellcaster is a real priority - how many spells will you really be casting with level-variable effects? You've also forgotten to take your bonuse Wizard feat. You could go 14 14 16 14 8 8 1 Fighter Power Attack, Dodge, Mobility 2 Diviner: Scribe Scroll 3 Diviner: Retributive Spell 4 Diviner 5 Diviner 6 Diviner: Craft Wondrous Item, Improved Toughness 7 Diviner 8 Spellsword 9 Eldritch Knight: Elusive Target, Arcane Strike 10 EK 11 EK 12 EK: Quicken Spell 13 EK 14 EK 15 EK: Smiting Spell Improved Toughness helps compensate for your low HD, since you'll be trying to front-line. Quicken is good; you never know when you'll have to pop off a Mirror Image or the like to save your fragile hit dice. Likewise Elusive Target is very useful, since you can't afford to take Power Attacks. Retributive Spell is, again, very good - it's Quicken with only a +1 level adjustment if you plan properly. Can't take both arcane strike and elusive target at 9th because niether is a fighter bonus feat.
Necrochaos 03-21-07, 09:00 PM	I'd pick Retributive Spell much earlier, it's very, very good for a gish - even if the best spell you can find to charge it with is Vampiric Touch. Forget Cleave, it's not worth a precious feat slot. It is not necessary to spend two build points on Wisdom - you have strong Will progression anyway, so ditch it. I highly advise running a 16 Con if you are going to rely on Eldritch Knight and that many Wizard levels. As you're only down two caster levels, and will be using most of your spells to buff or disable, I don't think Practiced Spellcaster is a real priority - how many spells will you really be casting with level-variable effects? You've also forgotten to take your bonuse Wizard feat. You could go 14 14 16 14 8 8 1 Fighter Power Attack, Dodge, Mobility 2 Diviner: Scribe Scroll 3 Diviner: Retributive Spell 4 Diviner 5 Diviner 6 Diviner: Craft Wondrous Item, Improved Toughness 7 Diviner 8 Spellsword 9 Eldritch Knight: Elusive Target, Arcane Strike 10 EK 11 EK 12 EK: Quicken Spell 13 EK 14 EK 15 EK: Smiting Spell Improved Toughness helps compensate for your low HD, since you'll be trying to front-line. Quicken is good; you never know when you'll have to pop off a Mirror Image or the like to save your fragile hit dice. Likewise Elusive Target is very useful, since you can't afford to take Power Attacks. Retributive Spell is, again, very good - it's Quicken with only a +1 level adjustment if you plan properly. I picked practiced spellcaster to help my level for fireballs and scortching rays. I'd still like to be able to blow things up at a decent rate. If I'm going diviner, what schools do I choose to have as prohibited?
Japangirl 03-21-07, 10:23 PM	Diviner only loses one school. Probably I'd say lose enchantment, while it has nice spells overall the other schools are stronger. For a gish, Evocation is of questionable utility as well, so that one could go if you wanted to keep Enchantment.
jstorrie 03-22-07, 12:17 PM	Can't take both arcane strike and elusive target at 9th because niether is a fighter bonus feat. Truth. You'd have to swap the feats around - Quicken Spell at 6, Improved Tougness & Arcane Strike at 9, Elusive Target at 12. A little less optimal since Quicken is a dead feat until ninth level and lack of Improved Toughness makes the 6-8 slog less enjoyable, but you're still back on track at 9th level. You can still blow things up at a decent rate without Practiced Spellcaster. In situations where you'd be lobbing an AOE blast spell, you're generally clearing up multiple weak foes. Your battlefield control spells aren't really level-dependent.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-22-07, 12:56 PM	Truth. You'd have to swap the feats around - Quicken Spell at 6, Improved Tougness & Arcane Strike at 9, Elusive Target at 12. A little less optimal since Quicken is a dead feat until ninth level and lack of Improved Toughness makes the 6-8 slog less enjoyable, but you're still back on track at 9th level. You can still blow things up at a decent rate without Practiced Spellcaster. In situations where you'd be lobbing an AOE blast spell, you're generally clearing up multiple weak foes. Your battlefield control spells aren't really level-dependent. Improved Toughness isn't a fighter bonus feat either. [Edit] Nevermind...Seems the LGCS still uses the Complete Warrior version. The most recent printing is in Libris Mortis, where it is no longer a fighter bonus feat.
Timlagor 03-22-07, 02:31 PM	Truth. You'd have to swap the feats around - Quicken Spell at 6, Improved Tougness & Arcane Strike at 9, Elusive Target at 12. A little less optimal since Quicken is a dead feat until ninth level and lack of Improved Toughness makes the 6-8 slog less enjoyable, but you're still back on track at 9th level. I'd definitely put Elusive at 6th and Quicken at 12th in that situation.
jstorrie 03-22-07, 05:05 PM	It'd be nice if you could, but a gish won't have the BAB for it until 9, and Arcane Strike is more important in my opinion.
Necrochaos 03-22-07, 05:28 PM	14 14 16 14 8 8 1 Fighter Power Attack, Dodge, Mobility 2 Diviner: Scribe Scroll 3 Diviner: Retributive Spell 4 Diviner 5 Diviner 6 Diviner: Craft Wondrous Item, Elusive Target 7 Diviner 8 Spellsword 9 Eldritch Knight: Improved Toughness, Arcane Strike 10 EK 11 EK 12 EK: Quicken Spell 13 EK 14 EK 15 EK: Smiting Spell Ok, I'm alright with this build. Now, what about spell selection. As a front line guy, what type of spells should I have on my spell list?
Jay_Ibero_911 03-22-07, 05:31 PM	14 14 16 14 8 8 1 Fighter Power Attack, Dodge, Mobility 2 Diviner: Scribe Scroll 3 Diviner: Retributive Spell 4 Diviner 5 Diviner 6 Diviner: Craft Wondrous Item, Elusive Target 7 Diviner 8 Spellsword 9 Eldritch Knight: Improved Toughness, Arcane Strike 10 EK 11 EK 12 EK: Quicken Spell 13 EK 14 EK 15 EK: Smiting Spell Ok, I'm alright with this build. Now, what about spell selection. As a front line guy, what type of spells should I have on my spell list? Can't have Elusive Target at 6th. You need +6 BAB.
Necrochaos 03-22-07, 06:24 PM	14 14 16 14 8 8 1 Fighter Power Attack, Dodge, Mobility 2 Diviner: Scribe Scroll 3 Diviner: Retributive Spell 4 Diviner 5 Diviner 6 Diviner: Craft Wondrous Item, Quicken Spell 7 Diviner 8 Spellsword 9 Eldritch Knight: Improved Toughness, Arcane Strike 10 EK 11 EK 12 EK: Elusive Target 13 EK 14 EK 15 EK: Smiting Spell Moved Elusive Target to 12 Ok, I'm alright with this build. Now, what about spell selection. As a front line guy, what type of spells should I have on my spell list?
Eagle Prince 03-22-07, 09:51 PM	enlarge person, expeditious retreat, magic missle, magic weapon, protection from evil, ray of enfeeblement, shield, true strike, bull's strength, command undead, resist energy, glitterdust/see invisibility, fireball, fly, haste, heroism, ray of exhaustion, vampiric touch, wind wall, charm monster, dominate person, enervation, greater invisibility, telekinesis, greater heroism Not really my character, but I wouldn't specialize... if I did, I'd probably drop conjuration and/or illusion. I probably wouldn't waste feats on Dodge/Mobility/Elusive Target, and if I did use them, I'd pick up Spring Attack too. I like Smiting Spell, I'd probably move it up sooner, should work nice with chill touch, shocking grasp, vampiring touch... heck, might even be alright with touch of fatigue. I'd probably use a lower Con too, and drop Improved Toughness. Higher Intelligence would be more valuable than higher Con.
Necrochaos 03-23-07, 06:46 AM	Hmm, that confuses me even more. Does the Dodge Mobility really make sense? Anyone else have any other ideas?
Timlagor 03-23-07, 07:29 AM	I would not take Dodge+Mobility. If I did then i would take Elusive target at 9th and drop Imp Toughness (which I wouldn't take anyway) I would take Empower Spell -you'll certainly want it with Smiting Spell. I also recommend wielding a Reach weapon (don't I always?); especially since you can Enlarge yourself. (dont' forget the armour spikes) Spells I would not bother with the Enchatments that EP lists: you simply don't have the DCs for Dominate Monster etc. You do want lots of Buff spells and a few damage spells. I think taking enough Spellsword to get Channel Spell is cool enough to be worth it even if it isn't strictly as powerful as keeping the spell levels (not really sure how it measures up but Channel Spell can contribute a lot of damage) From 9th level, you should also prepare a number of situational spells that will be great if the situation comes up and worthless otherwise: these are your Arcane Strike fodder. Divinations often come into this category. Command Undead is another prime candidate. At low levels it's worth having a few of the save-or-X spells because Save Bonuses tend not to be high anyway: Sleep and Colour Spray primarily Any spell that you can cast on yourself for 1minute/level or more is well worth looking at (you don't want to be spending a lot of combat actions casting self-buffs though): (Greater) Mage Armour Shield Enlarge Person False Life See Invisibility Resist Energy ...and many many more. Then there's the (other) spells that are just top tier for anyone: Grease Glitterdust (+See Invisibility) (Greater) Invisibility (Sphere) (Mass) Fly Damage spells should principally be reserved for 'tricks' that let you deliver them and attack in melee as well (Quickened/Rertibutive/Pre-cast Smiting/Held Charge Touch Spells/Spellsword channeled/Spellstoring weapon) or situations where you can't readily melee (or don't want to).
jstorrie 03-23-07, 07:30 AM	You really do need Elusive Target with your low hit dice, or else Power Attacking enemies are going to brutalize you at the high APLs. Don't lower your Con, either. If you don't go for Elusive Target, I would pick up Improved Buckler Defense, Toughness and Arcane Toughness. Smiting Spell isn't all that useful, in my opinion. Use swift spells instead. Bladeweave, Critical Strike and Swift Fly are all good.
Japangirl 03-23-07, 03:34 PM	Improved Toughness is the equivalent of +2 Con for the cost of a feat slot. If hitpoints are a serious issue, and they are for this build, it's a really great feat.
Timlagor 03-25-07, 01:07 PM	Improved Toughness is the equivalent of +2 Con for the cost of a feat slot. If hitpoints are a serious issue, and they are for this build, it's a really great feat. 1) Empowered False Life 2) Contingent False Life (ok not for a while) 3) (Empowered) Vampiric Touch 4) Half-Price Amulets of Health 5) Damage Avoidance (AC, Miss Chance, Resist Energy, ...) 6) DAMAGE Improved Toughness is certainly nice... but I don't think it's nice enough.
jstorrie 03-25-07, 01:31 PM	You can do all of those things and have Improved Toughness. Why not do both?
Necrochaos 03-25-07, 05:38 PM	14 14 16 14 8 8 1 Fighter Power Attack, Dodge, Mobility 2 Diviner: Scribe Scroll 3 Diviner: Retributive Spell 4 Diviner 5 Diviner 6 Diviner: Craft Wondrous Item, Smiting Spell 7 Diviner 8 Spellsword 9 Eldritch Knight: Improved Toughness, Arcane Strike 10 EK 11 EK 12 EK: Elusive Target 13 EK 14 EK 15 EK: Quicken Spell I can't find a good way to get Elusive target any higher than 12. It's not a fighter feat and I need Arcane Strike as soon as I qualify for it.
jstorrie 03-25-07, 07:04 PM	I'm not sure how useful Smiting Spell is going to be. How often will you want to give up a standard action in combat to put a spell in your weapon? If you took Improved Toughness at 6, you could take something like Improved Buckler Defense at 9.
magebeast 03-26-07, 01:54 AM	I'm not sure how useful Smiting Spell is going to be. How often will you want to give up a standard action in combat to put a spell in your weapon? If you took Improved Toughness at 6, you could take something like Improved Buckler Defense at 9. He qualifies for elusive target then, actually.
jstorrie 03-26-07, 02:42 AM	Right, but Elusive Target is not a fighter bonus feat, and he already wants to spend his ninth-level feat on Arcane Strike, so he can't take it at that point.
Timlagor 03-26-07, 09:09 AM	MObility at 9th and Empower at 1st :)
Necrochaos 03-26-07, 09:22 PM	Right, but Elusive Target is not a fighter bonus feat, and he already wants to spend his ninth-level feat on Arcane Strike, so he can't take it at that point. I had never looked at Arcane sight until this board pointed me to it. It seems like the feat that all gishes should take, so I have it.
Timlagor 03-27-07, 05:02 AM	Arcane Sight?
Necrochaos 03-27-07, 07:35 AM	Strike, arcane strike, my fauth
Necrochaos 03-31-07, 09:06 AM	14 14 16 14 8 8 1 Fighter Power Attack, Dodge, Mobility 2 Diviner: Scribe Scroll 3 Diviner: Retributive Spell 4 Diviner 5 Diviner 6 Diviner: Craft Wondrous Item, Smiting Spell 7 Diviner 8 Spellsword 9 Eldritch Knight: Improved Toughness, Arcane Strike 10 EK 11 EK 12 EK: Elusive Target 13 EK 14 EK 15 EK: Quicken Spell I can't find a good way to get Elusive target any higher than 12. It's not a fighter feat and I need Arcane Strike as soon as I qualify for it. Still looking for a better third level feat. Also should I switch elusive target and arcane strike? Should I remove smiting spell as well? What about improved toughnes to 6? What would I take at 9?
TWG_Prometheus 03-31-07, 09:41 AM	The answer to your questions depends on how much you want to engage in melee with this character. Personally, I find the Dodge/Mobility/Elusive Target feat chain to be an overinvestment for a Gish build that is feat hungry. If you have any interest in melee, do not move Arcane Strike. Outside of some cheesemonkey build that I'm not aware of, 9th level is the soonest you can possibly obtain Arcane Strike, and you'll hate yourself if you don't take it then. Also, if your Gish experience is anything like mine has been (Sorcerer 4/Paladin 2/Spellsword 1 currently) hitting things is a primary concern and problem. I can't see willfully dropping Weapon Focus as being a good idea. Many would balk at this, but Power Attack is dramatically less important than Weapon Focus. Your attack rolls aren't going to be good and you won't be power attacking in the majority of fights anyway. You may want to keep Power Attack in there (and it is a good feat) but I'd drop something at 1st level for Weapon Focus. It will pay off. Consider a Longsword as your main weapon instead of a Greatsword. (or other weapon. I can't remember how this started out) A Longsword is usable with a shield and usable as a two-handed weapon. You drop 2.5 average damage per swing, but gain a lot of versatility. As soon as I get some Magic Arms and Armor crafting downtime (after Red Hand of Doom) I'll be switching my focus from a Greatsword to a Longsword myself. Probably for use with a Mithril Buckler. Not having to waste a round casting Shield when you're surprised is priceless. If you do have time to precast the Shield spell, you can just stow your shield and fight two-handed without penalty. In my opinion this would work better: 14 14 16 14 8 8 1 Fighter Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Improved Toughness 2 Diviner: Scribe Scroll 3 Diviner: Retributive Spell 4 Diviner 5 Diviner 6 Diviner: Craft Wondrous Item, Smiting Spell 7 Diviner 8 Spellsword 9 Eldritch Knight: Improved Initiative, Arcane Strike 10 EK 11 EK 12 EK: Minor Shapeshift A 16 Con and Improved Toughness and False Life and Minor Shapeshift and Vampiric Touch combined should give you enough hit points to survive without Elusive Target and then some. (Qualification: Don't do something stupid.) Suggestion for Pre-Spellsword period: If you're on the attack (knowing you'll have encounters in the next hour) stow the chain shirt away and use Mage Armor/Greater Mage Armor instead. I wish I could have pulled off a similar trick with my Spellsword, but didn't have the spell selection to get Mage Armor.