Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gumbymoto 08-02-06, 05:37 PM	I am relatively new to LG and I am planning my build and want to get a handle on what amounts of gold I can expect my character to have at each level so I can guage what magic items would be within his reach. It seems like gold is tight early then onens up more at higher levels, but I have not had a chance to see what the AR's typically provide as they get higher in level. Does any one have a total gold earned by level chart or a chart showing the gold/exp earned by each AR level? Thanks for the help! ;)
Ira_Dei 08-02-06, 07:58 PM	At lower levels (up to around 6), gold is slightly less than xp (about 5% less) due to upkeep expenses, but by level 10, gold is outstripping xp by 70% or more. This is assuming no multiclass xp penalty, and only upkeep expenditure is taken into account. And these percentages are very rough, but it gives you a basic idea. Try not to die, that really sucks up the money!
copper_wyrmling 08-03-06, 12:31 AM	The max XP starts at 450 for APL 2, and increases by 225 with each APL. So the XP earned goes like: APL 2: 450 APL 4: 675 APL 6: 900 APL 8: 1125 APL 10: 1350 APL 12: 1575 APL 14: 1800 APL 16: 2025 The max gold earned isn't quite as easy to calculate. The pattern is: APL 2: 450 APL 4: 650 APL 6: 900 APL 8: 1300 APL 10: 2300 APL 12: 3300 APL 14: 6600 APL 16: 9900 Also, the DMG has an expected wealth by level chart on page 135, which is a decent guideline - some LG characters (especially item crafters, characters with XP penalties, and people who've died repeatedly at high levels) are well above the guidelines, but I've only met a few PCs who are a long way below them. Hope that helps!
clik_ml 08-03-06, 08:35 AM	Try not to die, that really sucks up the money! Except at high levels, where it does the opposite.
trollbill 08-03-06, 09:30 AM	Of course, all of this is relatively pointless since you are extreemly limited in LG in what magic items you can buy. There doesn't seem much point in planning to buy a +1 Flame Tongue at 10th level if you aren't garaunteed of having access to one on an AR. You can make some minimal planning at low levels since you do have a fair selection of low level items available to you as Core, but after that, there is only so much planning you can do.
Mommy was an Orc 08-03-06, 10:46 AM	I am relatively new to LG and I am planning my build and want to get a handle on what amounts of gold I can expect my character to have at each level so I can guage what magic items would be within his reach. It seems like gold is tight early then onens up more at higher levels, but I have not had a chance to see what the AR's typically provide as they get higher in level. Does any one have a total gold earned by level chart or a chart showing the gold/exp earned by each AR level? Thanks for the help! ;) Well, let's take a look at it - suppose the following is true: You don't die At APL you always play APL. Odd APLs you alternate, playing up first You don't craft, do perform checks, or any other means of gaining money You don't play any core specials or other mods with odd experience/gold totals You don't spend any money whatsoever except all your starting money Level 1: 3 mods. Total Gold = 1350 Level 2: 4 mods. Total Gold = 3150 Level 3: 5 mods. Total Gold = 6000 Level 4: 6 mods. Total Gold = 9900 Level 5: 7 mods. Total Gold = 15450 Level 6: 6 mods. Total Gold = 20850 Level 7: 7 mods. Total Gold = 28750 Level 8: 7 mods. Total Gold = 37850 Level 9: 7 mods. Total Gold = 50950 Level 10: 8 mods. Total Gold = 67050 Level 11: 7 mods. Total Gold = 87150 Level 12: 8 mods. Total Gold = 110250 Level 13: 8 mods. Total Gold = 146550 Level 14: 8 mods. Total Gold = 192750 Level 15: 7 mods. Total Gold = 252150 Which is just a hair behind the level totals in DMG. But there are things that will change that: Consumables = less money Replacing Items = less money Dying = less money at the start, more money after about 7th Crafting = more money XP Penalties = more mods = more money Doing Perform-type checks = slightly more money Generally playing up at odd levels = more money after 6th. This happens more often than not because if you have a party of 6, more people have to play up than down usually - as an extreme example, a party of 6 7th level characters have to play APL 8.
Mommy was an Orc 08-03-06, 11:00 AM	Of course, all of this is relatively pointless since you are extreemly limited in LG in what magic items you can buy. There doesn't seem much point in planning to buy a +1 Flame Tongue at 10th level if you aren't garaunteed of having access to one on an AR. You can make some minimal planning at low levels since you do have a fair selection of low level items available to you as Core, but after that, there is only so much planning you can do. That's not really true. You may not be able to get exactly what you want when you want it, but you'll likely get approximately what you want roughly when you want it. A +1 Adamantine sword of shock and frost might not be a +1 holy adamantine sword might not be a +1 sacred flame adamantine sword, but they're roughly in the same ballpark. You just change what consumables you buy to compensate. The most problematic area seems to be wands - there's a lot of useful wands that rarely show up, would be reasonably easy to get made for you in a homebrew game, but not going to happen in LG.
trollbill 08-03-06, 11:22 AM	That's not really true. You may not be able to get exactly what you want when you want it, but you'll likely get approximately what you want roughly when you want it. A +1 Adamantine sword of shock and frost might not be a +1 holy adamantine sword might not be a +1 sacred flame adamantine sword, but they're roughly in the same ballpark. You just change what consumables you buy to compensate. The most problematic area seems to be wands - there's a lot of useful wands that rarely show up, would be reasonably easy to get made for you in a homebrew game, but not going to happen in LG. Weapons was probably a bad choice for an example on my part since the way some ARs work is more versitile. Planning on miscellaneous magic items, rods, wands and staves does seem a lot more problematic than planning on weapons and armor. Certain other items can be planned for via Metaorgs, but there is still quite a limitation.
Gumbymoto 08-03-06, 05:01 PM	Thanks all, this really helps get a gauge on what I will likely be able to buy at which levels! ;)
Gumbymoto 08-03-06, 05:20 PM	Ok, a few other questions allong the same lines..... 1. How advantageous is it be to be able to craft items in LG due to the limited gold available? 2. One option I am considering is to take 3 levels of cleric later in my build starting around 6-8th level with domains of celerity & travel, I would take the craft wounderous items feat and practised spellcaster feats. Would this allow me craft stat items such as strength, dexterity, constitution (health), etc. since I would have all the prerequisits {Caster level 7 (3 base+4 practised spell caster), spells of bull strength/bear endurance/cats grace}? This would defray much of the costs for these items which I feel my build will be relying on heavily. I might even take 2 more cleric levels and then take the craft weapons/armor & shields feat. Thanks in advance for any help on this topic :)
Japangirl 08-03-06, 05:32 PM	Crafting is very advantageous in LG, but depending on what you want to do it's not critical. I have two characters of a level in which in matters, only one of which is a crafter, and the other one is just fine on equipment and such. If you plan on being a cleric or wizard anyway, sure, maybe pick up a crafting feat or two. If not, don't worry about it.
Lomiat 08-03-06, 06:16 PM	It's also worth noting you need to be Caster Level 8 to create the stat boost items. Even with Practiced Caster, this means you need 4 levels of cleric spell progression.
GorTeX 08-03-06, 07:05 PM	don't count on getting max xp/gold in every mod...i've had a mod where I got 0gp and many with less than max in either (or both) xp/gold.
JayParker 08-04-06, 02:13 PM	Weapons was probably a bad choice for an example on my part since the way some ARs work is more versitile. Planning on miscellaneous magic items, rods, wands and staves does seem a lot more problematic than planning on weapons and armor. Certain other items can be planned for via Metaorgs, but there is still quite a limitation. Planning on getting any kind of magic item is rather silly, unless you can find someone to cheat and tell you items found on ARs. Of course, if you do that, well... that's cheating. :P Also, there is no magic items in meta-orgs any more, so if for some reason you can't be "versitile" in your choice of items, you'd be better off as a crafter.
trollbill 08-04-06, 02:47 PM	Planning on getting any kind of magic item is rather silly, unless you can find someone to cheat and tell you items found on ARs. Of course, if you do that, well... that's cheating. :P Also, there is no magic items in meta-orgs any more, so if for some reason you can't be "versitile" in your choice of items, you'd be better off as a crafter. That was rather my point. LG is not like other games where the GM lets you spend your 10,000 GP on any magic item you want so long as the town you are in is big enough. It's one thing to plan out your levels with when you will take certain classes, feats, spells, etc. These are all mostly predictable (unless you try to plan on taking a limited one). But actual magic is another thing. So if you do make a plan, it had better be a flexible one. Of course, I can't recall very many characters I've had that actually stuck to their planned progression over the long haul. Characters always evolve.
JayParker 08-04-06, 04:43 PM	That was rather my point. LG is not like other games where the GM lets you spend your 10,000 GP on any magic item you want so long as the town you are in is big enough. It's one thing to plan out your levels with when you will take certain classes, feats, spells, etc. These are all mostly predictable (unless you try to plan on taking a limited one). But actual magic is another thing. So if you do make a plan, it had better be a flexible one. Of course, I can't recall very many characters I've had that actually stuck to their planned progression over the long haul. Characters always evolve. Oh... I thought your point was 'waah waah waah, LG is "extreemly" limited and won't let me do things like in a home game, waah waah waah.
Paul H 08-04-06, 08:43 PM	Hi Not sure about crafting stat increase items - believe you need access for anything above the basic +2. Crafting pearls of Power is very useful, since they increase the amount of spells you cast per day. (My main char has 2 1st lvl Pearls). Once you've got access, Wands are very useful too. Especially Cure Light Wounds, etc. Cheers Paul H
Necrochaos 08-04-06, 08:53 PM	Wand of Lesser Vigor is another great item to craft
Iswald 08-05-06, 12:14 AM	Not sure about crafting stat increase items - believe you need access for anything above the basic +2. You can craft wondrous items from the DMG once you are two levels above the caster level. This means at CL 10 and up, you can upgrade your stat items to +4 or +6 without having access.
Mommy was an Orc 08-05-06, 09:14 AM	Only if you have Craft Wands and not Craft Wondrous. Lesser Vigor really isn't a combat spell and it should only heal 11 hp a casting. Compare with Pearl of Power healing up 15 hp a casting. If you end up using a Pearl of Power twice per mod over the course of 25 mods, it ends up being 0.66 gold/hp healed. A wand of Lesser Vigor is 0.68 gold/hp healed. And then of course, you still have the Pearl of Power...that's also assuming you used it solely for Lesser Vigor. They can be used for other spells or even by arcane casters - nice when you have a Monk in the party who would like to have a Mage Armor cast on them or you need Endure Elements on the whole party, etc... Wand of Lesser Vigor is another great item to craft
Howie23 08-05-06, 10:54 AM	Once you've got access, Wands are very useful too. Especially Cure Light Wounds, etc. You don't need access to craft wands. You just need the Craft Wand feat and ability to cast the spell. You can craft wands for any 1-4th level spell that you can cast, no access required, no DMG limit. You need access to limited spells you might want a wand for, but I don't think that's what you were referring to. David
paigeoliver 08-07-06, 03:40 PM	I'd only suggest craft arms and armor for a very combat intensive cleric. No one else is ever going to get their feat's worth out of it. Because realistically you are only ever going to craft 4 items with it (1 suit of armor, 1 shield, 1 melee weapon and one ranged weapon). Oh, as a bonus you can also craft a melee enhancement on your shield (a shield can be a magic weapon in its own right)/ Craft wonderous is good for clerics and druids especially and wizards secondary. Sorcerors usually don't have a diverse enough spell selection to pull it off. Brew potion is really only useful if you plan on handing out potions to other characters (a perfectly valid thing to do), otherwise scrolls are cheaper. Craft wands is a pretty good feat, especially for split casters. Forge ring, craft rod, etc, can be ignored, unless you really have your eyes on some really expensive rings/rods that you can make.
solbergb 08-07-06, 03:54 PM	Of course, all of this is relatively pointless since you are extreemly limited in LG in what magic items you can buy. . I have 3 characters level 10+. They all have sufficient access to spend every bit of expected gold on stuff they want until retirement. I have a couple more in the 6-8 range. They have sufficient access to spend every bit of expected gold on stuff they want till roughly level 12. The basic access everybody gets can easily spend all the cash you'll earn till level 5, especially if you have any use for armor or weapons or are any kind of spellcaster. You are not "extremely limited". You can't buy everything under the sun, but you will be able to buy plenty of things your character needs and wants, if not perhaps in the exact order you will prefer. Which is not different from any other campaign, where what you get is what the DM decides to put in the game. (LG has FAR more liberal rules for basic access and is much more generous with crafting favors than any home campaign I've played in nearly 30 years of gaming across all D&D editions this side of chainmail) What is true about LG is that crafters are more restricted in what they can do than in a normal campaign - except that they have downtime "on demand" where my experience with home campaigns is that there is tons of pressure on the party crafter to get the heck out of the lab because everybody is bored and wants to adventure alreday.
Mommy was an Orc 08-07-06, 04:15 PM	Craft wonderous is good for clerics and druids especially and wizards secondary. Sorcerors usually don't have a diverse enough spell selection to pull it off. While it might seem expensive, Sorcerers can use scrolls to do it - the savings if you're using 1st or 2nd level scrolls is still pretty large - 12 scrolls of Eagle's Splendor costs 1800 gold and the cost for upgrading a +2 Cloak to +4 is 14K if you sell the 1st and buy the 2nd. 6200 gold at a cost of 3 TUs and no risk isn't a bad deal, even if we're pretending that the TU structure of LG didn't favor casters already.
trollbill 08-07-06, 04:40 PM	Oh... I thought your point was 'waah waah waah, LG is "extreemly" limited and won't let me do things like in a home game, waah waah waah. I do not, now, nor will I ever, approve of this sort of churlish condescention. Especially when it is innaccurate and speaks volumns for the user's obvious innability to read posts without reading far to much into them. What I said was a statement of fact, LG is more limiting on what magic items you can purchase that other campaigns I am familiar with (at least those using 3E+ rules). That is not a complaint or a whine. It simply a statement. There are advantages and disadvantages to this, but I don't have a problem with either. In fact, I probably prefer the limitation as it adds more flavor to both the campaign and characters. So next time you want to start slamming people for whining you might want to actually ask youself if the person you want to slam actually said what you thought they said. I have 3 characters level 10+. They all have sufficient access to spend every bit of expected gold on stuff they want until retirement. I have a couple more in the 6-8 range. They have sufficient access to spend every bit of expected gold on stuff they want till roughly level 12. The basic access everybody gets can easily spend all the cash you'll earn till level 5, especially if you have any use for armor or weapons or are any kind of spellcaster. You are not "extremely limited". You can't buy everything under the sun, but you will be able to buy plenty of things your character needs and wants, if not perhaps in the exact order you will prefer. Which is not different from any other campaign, where what you get is what the DM decides to put in the game. (LG has FAR more liberal rules for basic access and is much more generous with crafting favors than any home campaign I've played in nearly 30 years of gaming across all D&D editions this side of chainmail) What is true about LG is that crafters are more restricted in what they can do than in a normal campaign - except that they have downtime "on demand" where my experience with home campaigns is that there is tons of pressure on the party crafter to get the heck out of the lab because everybody is bored and wants to adventure alreday. I suppose extremely limited is relative, but you are still missing the point. The original poster asked about gold from ARs so that he could plan what items he might be able to buy later on, in much the same way someone might be able to plan on what classes, feats and skills they will take over the next 10-levels. Since you are limited to purhasing what you find on ARs, and cannot practically predict on what will be found on an AR, there is no real way of doing this effectively. I have heard of people who didn't get that Mithril Shirt they had the money and desire for at 2nd level until they hit 8th because it didn't show up on an AR. Sure, you will be have no problem finding useful things to spend your money on in LG, but that's not the same as planning in advance what level you are going to buy X item at. Once again, this is not a complaint, simply a statement.
paigeoliver 08-07-06, 05:44 PM	Heck, I invite all the whiners out their to join my home game. In my home game magic items generally cannot be purchased at all unless you happen to be in the right place at the right time. The last time magic items WERE available to buy one character ended up in jail for not understanding the difference between the 10 percent deposit he had to put down before entering the auction and the final price of the item. Poor Crossbow Joe, spent a month in prison after the last time their was a magic item auction in the pirate kingdoms (he put down ALL his gold as a deposit and then had NOTHING to pay the balance with) . Apparently he got over excited about "beep tags" (place them on an item and then call out their name to make them BEEP until they are handled. Combined with the brewery kit (this was an OLD Dungeon magazine module), and poor 8 int crossbow joe was quite in the red. Luckily Joe's friend's made enough gold to get him out after a month.
Lupo 08-08-06, 12:23 PM	I'd only suggest craft arms and armor for a very combat intensive cleric. No one else is ever going to get their feat's worth out of it. Because realistically you are only ever going to craft 4 items with it (1 suit of armor, 1 shield, 1 melee weapon and one ranged weapon). Oh, as a bonus you can also craft a melee enhancement on your shield (a shield can be a magic weapon in its own right)/ Craft wonderous is good for clerics and druids especially and wizards secondary. Sorcerors usually don't have a diverse enough spell selection to pull it off. Brew potion is really only useful if you plan on handing out potions to other characters (a perfectly valid thing to do), otherwise scrolls are cheaper. Craft wands is a pretty good feat, especially for split casters. Forge ring, craft rod, etc, can be ignored, unless you really have your eyes on some really expensive rings/rods that you can make. "craft arms&armor" can be very usefull for a cleric with a frontliner cohort, but with the rules for PoP i would almost always take"craft wonderous" in favour of "craft arms&armor" ciao martin m.
solbergb 08-08-06, 06:35 PM	I suppose extremely limited is relative, but you are still missing the point. The original poster asked about gold from ARs so that he could plan what items he might be able to buy later on, in much the same way someone might be able to plan on what classes, feats and skills they will take over the next 10-levels. Since you are limited to purhasing what you find on ARs, and cannot practically predict on what will be found on an AR, there is no real way of doing this effectively. I have heard of people who didn't get that Mithril Shirt they had the money and desire for at 2nd level until they hit 8th because it didn't show up on an AR.. I'm not missing your point. I'm trying to clarify it. Yes, it is true that you can't predict the purchase of anything but +2 attribute items +1 armor/weapons/ring/cloak, cold iron/silver weapons and potions/scrolls of 700gp or less. But just those items will get you to level 6, easily and run you out of cash. By level 6 you will have a stack of AR's with more access and favors. They will keep you busy until level 10ish, by which time you'll have an even bigger stack of access and favors, which by then will get you to level 15 even without all the 11-15 favors. While it is true you can't plan on a SPECIFIC item, you can plan. Here is a couple examples from real play. Heavily armored dwarf warchanter character - primary role is as a blocker, is a "hitter" in level 2, medeocre hitter + support in APL4-6, becomes strong support+decent hitter in APL8+. I need armor class for this concept, plus I'm not super strong and no power attack till level 9, so I also value special material axes. Original plan: L1-2: get the first masterwork weapon and the usual set of potions/alchemicals that all fighters get L2-3: save up for spiked fullplate L3-4: fullplate+tower shield to +1 each L4-5: magic weapon and +1 ring L5-6: +2 attribute item (probably con) and +1 cloak resistance L6-7: another +2 attribute item and second magic weapon L7-8: upgrade armor/shield to +2 or cloak to +2 depending on access around this time consider potion of fly and/or scroll dimension door L9-10: use weapon upgrade favors, finish the +2 upgrades L10-11: +4 attribute item,+3 cloak L11-12: +4 attribute item, +2 ring L12-15: look for +6 items, armor/shield/ring upgrades higher than +2, resistance item upgrades, boots of speed or flying. and so on. This is just a rough idea, based on what might be available, but lets you know "Gee, I'm not getting that belt of strength till at least level 10, even if I get access. Maybe I should just buy the gaunts of ogre power. Now actual play changes things a bit. This guy got a charisma bump, chose goad as a feat, fought a lot of vampires and got a cheap mithril favor. His first 6 levels are "actuals" his next 6 are assuming only access he already has. L1-2: MW cold iron weapon and the usual set of potions/alchemicals L2-3: spiked fullplate L3-4: +1 silvered weapon L4-5: +1 armor, +1 shield, weapon capsule retainers+capsules L5-6: +1 ring, heward haversack L6-7: triple weapon capsule retainers, cloak charisma+2 L7-8: amulet health+2, tower shield+2 around this time consider potion of fly and/or scroll dimension door L9-10: mithril fullplate+2, gloves dex+2 L10-11: add merciful to the silvered weapon Also will buy vest of resistance +1, vest+2 or adamantine weapon at any point where he gets access, disrupting any other plans to get them. So you see, he's got much the same loadout as his plan, but his AC is a bit better and his saves are a bit worse, he found a haversack, decided he wanted a charisma boost and put off a weapon upgrade for a level (but has capsule retainers for emergencies). Here is someone who got a bit more disrupted, my arcane archer: L1-2: potions, alchemicals, ci/silver arrows, save up for mw composite str bow L2-3: make the bow magic L3-4: +1 armor, +1 ring L4-5: gloves dex+2 L5-6: amulet health+2, cloak prot+1 L6-7: cloak+2 and some wizards stuff (whatever I find) L7-8: bow upgrade +1d6, more wizard stuff or upgrade to mithril armor L9-10: bow upgrade +2d6 or boots of speed L10-11: attribute +4 item L11-12: attribute+4 item +2 ring protection Keep an eye out for adamantine access, nonlethal options, mithril, thistledown, quiver ehlonna, handy haversack The last four items shuffled around as access is provided Here is the actual (he's level 8) L1-2: potions, alchemicals, ci/silver arrows, sleep arrows L2-3: mw strength bow, mw buckler, size large bow (don't ask) L3-4: mithril chain shirt+1, wand of clw L4-5: bow+1, eyes of the eagle, L5-6: amulet health+2, wand of enlarge person L6-7: many other unusual arrow types, elvencraft bow, wand of command undead (15cg), two pearl of power 1 L7-8: adamantine ammunition, cloak resistance+1, heward haversack (note the lack of a dex+2 item - it turned out I hit things just fine. Note the lack of a bow upgrade. In levels 6-8 I was doing good damage, but in APL10 I'm going to actually need the upgrade I put off) Now based on access I have: L8-9: bow upgrade merciful, second haversack (my wife has quiver of Ehlonna that she bought for me, this is for her character...) L9-10: boots of speed L10-11: bow upgrade (different bow) holy L11-12: Con+4 item. death ward upgrade on armor L12-13: con+6 item. second +1 enhancement on mercy bow (I have several possibilities, might be elemental, might be "aquatic", might be a bane weapon) L13-14: eager and fortunate on the "staff" ends of my holy elvencraft bow somewhere in there I'll upgrade the cloak of resistance, maybe find a mithril buckler to enchant and possibly get a ring of protection. I also have a spell storing ring access I might use, and some metamagic rod access if I return to different regions that will suck a few thousand gp away. Somewhere in there I'll finally get around to getting the +2 dex gloves, probably after an adventure where I miss a lot of shots. ======================================== ========= Your budget in APL2 is roughly 500gp for a "cheap permanent item" and 1500 for an expensive one. Cheap items are bought in 2-3 adventures, expensive can take the whole level to get there. at APL4 it is 1000gp for cheap and 4000gp for expensive at APL6 it is 2000 and 6000 at APL8 it is 4000 and 12000 at APL10, 6000 and 16000 at APL12, 8000 and 24000 I don't have a feel yet for the higher APL's. mostly though just add up the gold you earn for the xp you earn, see how much you can spend in theory then knock 10% off or so for consumables, metaorg expenses or failures to get full gold. The cash you earn, especially in the APL10+ game is higher if you mostly play up, and lower if you mostly play down.
paigeoliver 08-09-06, 07:25 AM	I agree with solbergb you are going to have more access than you ever know what to do with. You'll probably have more access by 7th level than you could afford for the rest of your career. You MIGHT never find that EXACT item you want, but you will almost certainly find more than enough to keep you busy. If it is specific weapon and armor upgrades you want then I would just suggest playing things with the word "Special" or "interactive" in the title. My halfling axeman is like barely 4th level and already has access to around 40 or 50 weapon/armor upgrades because I played too many "specials" and "interactives" with him. It is already more than I would ever need. I made a "Master access sheet" for my 7th level halfling archer which lists everything she has longterm access to (Any, core, regional, metaregion, or favors), that she could ever possibly use. There are 110 items on that list. And some of THOSE items are actually things like "Anything from tables 4:5-4:9 in Races of Fear and Flame", so the REAL number is a lot higher. I could never get anything else on another AR ever and still never run out of stuff to buy. The one thing I never ever understood is why authors (or the circle, or whoever does it), keep sticking "adventure access" items in at APL 2 and 4 that could not possibly be purchased by anyone playing at those APLs. I guess there is that teeny tiny off chance that they might someday combine that adventure access with a future favor of some kind and get the item. Of course I guess they could craft it later (which is probably why they are on there in the first place). You are only ever going to have access issues if you base your whole character around some obscure item like a folding boat or some funky armor enhancement. I'd suggest not doing that. With my halfling axe thrower I had two plans, one prestige class if I got access to the returning enhancement, or another if I didn't. I ended up with the returning access VERY early on, but I still would have been fine without it since I had an alternate plan.
trollbill 08-09-06, 10:15 AM	I'm not missing your point. I'm trying to clarify it. Okay, I get your point. And agree with it for the most part, with one caveat. I haven't played as much as you have, but over half of the AR access I have gotten so far has been "Adventure Access", which means you can't really save it for higher levels. If you can't pay for it in the next 3 adventures, its gone. I agree with solbergb you are going to have more access than you ever know what to do with. You'll probably have more access by 7th level than you could afford for the rest of your career. You MIGHT never find that EXACT item you want, but you will almost certainly find more than enough to keep you busy. Oh, I agree. You will never likely have a problem finding items you want to buy. I usually find myself having to save up to buy items I have access for (usually before I lose access). But that's not the same as long term planning for items.
paigeoliver 08-09-06, 01:15 PM	What you will find is that every 5th or 6th module you play will be loaded down with longterm access of various items. If you haven't played all that much yet then it is very possible that you simply haven't come across any adventure records like that yet. Very few of the items I have purchased to date have been adventure access items, and the ones I HAVE bought have all been ones that were pretty darn cheap (2000 GP or less). When I did the longterm access list for my level 6 archer it would be like this, Nothing, nothing, nothing, 2 things, nothing, nothing, 17 things, nothing, nothing, 5 things, nothing, nothing, 11 things, nothing, 2 things, nothing, 1 thing, nothing, 9 things, etc.
solbergb 08-09-06, 01:42 PM	Most access is adventure access. But the longterm access adds up into more than you can ever spend. Which is why you see planning like I had above "if I see adamantine item or vest of restistance I'll buy it" You plan with longterm access. You note stuff that is so good for your char that if you see it you'll disrupt your plans, maybe even sell something off (lose even more money) to get it if you see adventure access. Then when it comes up on adventure access, it is like winning the lottery instead of feeling like a missed opportunity. When I first started playing I was somewhat skeptical of the access rules. After 3 years of seeing it in action, it works pretty well (from about year 4 onward, the balance of favors for character-specific custom items plus sprinklings of core/metaregional/regional and "any" access on the AR hit critical mass). The expensive adventure access stuff that nobody can buy is there because it was used against the PC's in the adventure. It is also there because it is access for crafter-types. I've also had a couple favors in my time that converted prior adventure or regional access to "any" on a onetime basis. Getting a favor like that causes an immediate audit of all your old AR's looking for "good stuff" or something new to add to your long term plan.
trollbill 08-09-06, 04:34 PM	Heh, well so far my planning with my current character, a Sorcerer 3, hasn't worked out. I had planned on buying a small arsenal of scrolls and then saving up until I could get a +2 Cloak of Charisma as early as 3rd level. But after having been given Adventure Access to a Dragonfang Spear (my character couldn't have gotten a more appropriate AR item if he tried), a Wand of Cure Light Wounds and a Heward's Handy Haversack. Well, let's just say that plan has been delayed for a bit. I suspect such delays are going to be common due to the nature of Adventure Access.
Lightblade 08-10-06, 10:30 AM	Heh, well so far my planning with my current character, a Sorcerer 3, hasn't worked out. I had planned on buying a small arsenal of scrolls and then saving up until I could get a +2 Cloak of Charisma as early as 3rd level. But after having been given Adventure Access to a Dragonfang Spear (my character couldn't have gotten a more appropriate AR item if he tried), a Wand of Cure Light Wounds and a Heward's Handy Haversack. Well, let's just say that plan has been delayed for a bit. I suspect such delays are going to be common due to the nature of Adventure Access. Just as a heads up: access to Wands of CLW are fairly common, while the other two items are much more rare. (I've seen the spear and the sack on one AR each of my 50+ ars, but the wand of CLW is probably on 10% of them).
trollbill 08-10-06, 10:44 AM	Just as a heads up: access to Wands of CLW are fairly common, while the other two items are much more rare. (I've seen the spear and the sack on one AR each of my 50+ ars, but the wand of CLW is probably on 10% of them). Yeah, I've heard that too. But the Cleric on a Stick is a life saver. In fact, the very next adventure I played in after I bought it, our party consisted of Sorcerer 3, Fighter 2, Fighter 1, Fighter 1, Monk 2 and Ranger 2. If it wasn't for the Ranger plus my Wand, we would have all been chugging down a fortune in 50 GP Potions instead of burning 15 GP charges.
Iswald 08-10-06, 12:45 PM	Just as a heads up: access to Wands of CLW are fairly common, while the other two items are much more rare. (I've seen the spear and the sack on one AR each of my 50+ ars, but the wand of CLW is probably on 10% of them). What you'll find depends upon your region. Haversacks (and Quivers of Ehlonna) seem pretty common when going through my ARs. Bags of holding on the other hand... I've only seen a couple and they were the smaller types.
Prochytes 08-10-06, 01:46 PM	What you'll find depends upon your region. Haversacks (and Quivers of Ehlonna) seem pretty common when going through my ARs. Bags of holding on the other hand... I've only seen a couple and they were the smaller types. Iswald's emphasis on Regional access is exactly right. There is a great deal of fluctuation between areas, and things which are relatively common in some parts of the world are gold-dust elsewhere. I think that I have seen quivers of Ehlonna twice (although one of them was Palish and therefore dubbed a quiver of Pholtus instead). Only one of my characters has gained access to a bag of holding so far. She acquired it at 14th level, and needs other people to carry it for her. Its constant weight is quite considerable for a woman with a STR of 8. One of the same PC's friends has a Heward's handy haversack, but that is one of only two she has ever seen, and both were in the possesssion of other PCs.
solbergb 08-10-06, 04:27 PM	One thing that experience should teach you. Expecting to save up for two levels to get one item is not very realistic - adventure access will mess up your plans. 4k items are really the provenance of level 5+ characters (and the L5 saved up all through L4 to get it) unless the player has amazing discipline (and is willing to have crappy equipment for two levels to get it) Cheap is "I can get this in adventure access time periods even if I'm broke after I'm done buying stuff on the current AR. Ie, 3 adventures or less. Expensive is "I can get this in 6-9 adventures or at most saving up for a whole level" Expecting to save 10+ adventures for something is not very realistic. You are bound to run into adventure access stuff while flush with cash, or feel pressured to buy a useful cheaper item because it would have really helped in one or more of those adventures.
Iswald 08-11-06, 09:26 AM	4k items are really the provenance of level 5+ characters (and the L5 saved up all through L4 to get it) unless the player has amazing discipline (and is willing to have crappy equipment for two levels to get it) Unless you run into a string of mods that provide access to a lot of things your other characters would love, but nothing for the one that played the mods.
paigeoliver 08-11-06, 10:17 AM	Oddly enough most of my characters have actually bought a stat bump item as one of their first purchases. Probably because I am never QUITE satisfied with the ability score layouts I can get with the 28 point buy and usually figure in at least one stat bump item at 4th level.
Lomiat 08-11-06, 11:45 AM	This whole mess gets much, much messier when you play a caster with multiple crafting feats (Craft Wondrous and Craft Magical Arms and Armor). My wizard's wish list demands that I consider not only GP, but XP and TUs. And there are still things I want to get from Favors that my wizard won't be able (or wouldn't find advantageous) to craft himself. Someday... the +1 Holy Undead Bane Ghost Touch Longbow... But first the Belt of Dwarvenkind. *sigh*
Gyro_LC 08-11-06, 02:08 PM	This whole mess gets much, much messier when you play a caster with multiple crafting feats (Craft Wondrous and Craft Magical Arms and Armor). My wizard's wish list demands that I consider not only GP, but XP and TUs. And there are still things I want to get from Favors that my wizard won't be able (or wouldn't find advantageous) to craft himself. Someday... the +1 Holy Undead Bane Ghost Touch Longbow... But first the Belt of Dwarvenkind. *sigh* I'm the same way with my cleric. He has Scribe Scrolls, Craft Wand, Craft Wonderous Items, and Craft Magic Arms & Armor. I have a stack of premade MICs that I want to make. Once I find adamantine access I'll have a +1 holy undead bane ghost touch adamantine heavy mace for all of those liches with stoneskin. However I really want to find access to the Animated shield enhancement so I can make a +3 animated heavy shield for the two-handed weapon fighters I adventure with.
clik_ml 08-12-06, 01:37 AM	so I can make a +3 animated heavy shield for the two-handed weapon fighters I adventure with. Something to consider... Pearl of Power level 3: Price 9k GP Difference between +1 Animated Shield and +3 Animated Shield: 16k GP So it's a fair bit cheaper to just use a pearl of power to get that +3 enhancement bonus via magic vestment, and more useful too, since it can be used for other things if need be (especially if there's no takers for the shield). You might not be caster level 12 yet (to get the +3 bonus), but Animated Shields require caster level 12, so it seems quite the fair comparison. - Erik
Gyro_LC 08-12-06, 02:33 AM	Something to consider... Pearl of Power level 3: Price 9k GP Difference between +1 Animated Shield and +3 Animated Shield: 16k GP So it's a fair bit cheaper to just use a pearl of power to get that +3 enhancement bonus via magic vestment, and more useful too, since it can be used for other things if need be (especially if there's no takers for the shield). You might not be caster level 12 yet (to get the +3 bonus), but Animated Shields require caster level 12, so it seems quite the fair comparison. - Erik That idea has a lot of potential, but there are too many 3rd level spells I want to carry so I never have an extra 3rd level slot open for Magic Vestments. I'm caster level 13, so I can make all kinds of neat stuff and have plenty of cash to do it with (I have Craft Wonderous and Arms & Armor). +3 animated shield (crafting cost = 12500 gp) isn't that much more than a PoP(3rd) + +1 animated shield (crafting cost = 9000 gp) and it doesn't take up a spell slot.