Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dr.Cornelius 07-24-07, 04:04 AM	Unhijacking another thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=890711&page=2): IMHO the Grapple and Trip mechanics are too strong - i.e. it is too easy for a character that spent a few feats specializing in a "trick" fighting style to dominate a more conventional opponent. Consider a one-on-one gladiator style combat between an optimized Grapple or Trip specialist and an optimized melee character that invested in other efficient feat trees. In my experience the trick fighter has a significant, if not dominant, advantage. Now there are a couple of counter arguments: 1) D&D encounters are considerably more complex and varied than simple gladiator style encounters. True, but the example applies in many encounters. 2) Close Quarters Fighting (feat, CW p.97) is an effective counter* to Grapple. Likewise Prone Attack (feat, CW p.103) counters Trip. In a world where characters predominantly fought other PCs, many characters would invest in CQF. Likewise, as authors see their carefully crafted encounters defeated time and again by this kind of tactic I expect that the mod metagame will evolve counters. To some extent silenced enlarged grapplers, lance-wielding spirited-charging dire bat-riders, enlarged invisible pouncing dire tigers, and other combos are corner cases that exploit unexpected synergies or poorly modeled situations. These present authors a fundamental problem: Encounters tough enough to challenge these highly optimized tactics may overwhelm even well designed iconic characters with conventional tactics. I don't know of a good answer - its basically a Nash Equilibrium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_Equilibrium) - once a significant proportion of players adopt these kinds of exploits then all players must adapt or be defeated by encounters that evolved to beat the exploits. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- *Expect table variation on whether or not Close Quarters Fighting has any benefit against opponents with a reach advantage.
copper_wyrmling 07-24-07, 04:37 AM	Part of your post is the "arms race" fallacy - the assumption that authors will react to a more optimized fringe of PCs by adjusting the general difficulty levels of mods upwards. I don't think that is actually true, based on my experience of LG mods over the last three years. I'm also surprised you classify trip and grapple together. Trip is much harder to boost than grapple is, requires a bigger feat investment and MAD, and has a much less significant effect - a successful trip means the target is prone and at penalties, but a successful grapple often completely neutralizes an opponent. Especially at lower levels, I do think grappling is one of the most powerful options in the game, but trip doesn't seem comparable imo (especially since you can get countertripped if you fail).
Dr.Cornelius 07-24-07, 05:00 AM	Part of your post is the "arms race" fallacy - the assumption that authors will react to a more optimized fringe of PCs by adjusting the general difficulty levels of mods upwards. I don't think that is actually true, based on my experience of LG mods over the last three years.Specials and "End of Cycle" mods being the exception. Pits of Azak-Zil, Dominion over Bright Sands and Heart of Winter (Pale) to name a few. Especially at lower levels, I do think grappling is one of the most powerful options in the game, but trip doesn't seem comparable imo...True. Trip is significantly weaker than Grapple and is less problematic although outside LG I have experienced very challenging encounters that involved a large number of highly specialized low level Trip Monsters that technically did not add much to the EL of the encounter but made it significantly more difficult. As to the relative usefulness of Grapple at low levels - it is my understanding that Grapple scales reasonably well. As the levels progress there are more encounters that cannot be grappled but for the ones that can be the Grappler gets Strength buffs and moves on to Bear Warrior. Grapple support also scales - for example, Ray of Enfeeblement at low levels, Empowered RoE at mid levels and Emp. Split Ray at high levels.
UMiskatonic 07-24-07, 06:12 AM	Yes, but there are also a number of spell-counters. You can Dim Door out of a grapple, or automatically win with Freedom of Movement. Fly is a good way to avoid being tripped. Both grapplers and trippers are vulnerable to players with more conventional tactics, focusing on arrows or fire magic for example. Or light weapons. Grapple a dervish, you'll see what I mean. Finally, focusing on one of these tactics has an opportunity cost. It means that you are correspondingly worse at something else. "Whaddya mean you don't have cleave?" I think the rules are fine as is, the problem is that many players don't know how to deal with these type of foes. For example, a charging character on a dire bat can be hosed with obscuring mist (1st level spell) or a simple smokestick, since you can't charge what you can't see.
solbergb 07-24-07, 01:15 PM	Just part of the game. I responded on the other thread, but briefly, the d20 swing is a big invisible counter to these tricks. People who play characters like this know what I'm talking about. People who don't, only remember the encounters where the grappler/tripper had the dice go his way and dominated the encounter. Dominating encounters with these feats becomes less common as you level. The tactical feats and maneuvers are useful, but so is just ripping into the enemy, and doing damage is more reliable. It's similar to the "cast save/die spell or do direct damage" decision casters have to make. Except that unlike with casters, failing a trip can leave you on your behind or disarmed, and succeeding at a grapple makes you easy meat for any allies the enemy might have.
solbergb 07-24-07, 01:18 PM	Grapple doesn't scale well as you level. Enemy monsters get +8 to grapple for +1 CR by gaining a size category, most melee monsters gain +3 to grapple for +1 CR by advancing in hitdice and that's not even counting the various spell counters that can make it utterly ineffective. The most effective APL for grappling is APL2, and it's a slow steady slide downhill from there. You do get better, but not as much better as the opposition does. Except for the grapple-vulnerable enemies. You do get better at grabbing them. For the average opponent, he'll gain grapple score faster than you will. Which is why many grapplers get close quarters combat sometime between levels 6-12, so that they can control whether or not they get grappled by the stuff that's become so big and strong that they'll probably lose without an extra +20 or so added to the grapple check. Trip retains its viability longer, because only size increases really boost enemy trip checks by much. You don't have the massive BAB inflation that CR advancement provides. More things fly, but not as many as get grapple-counter-spells. Your ability to enhance your own strength only falls slowly behind the enemy strength growth. Huge creatures are always hard to trip, but not impossible if you're enlarged. Large creatures,even quadrupeds, are trippable even at APL15 with sufficient attempts (to get those attempts you may need quickdraw or prone fighting or combat acrobat or something, and you're giving up significant damage unless you stick it on the first or second hit)
solbergb 07-24-07, 01:23 PM	Heart of winter was deadly? The mod that spanked us in the series was the one before that. I suspect a party/apl band interaction. Neither mod was actually more or less deadly than others in the series with average party at the APL ranges I'm familiar with. But both mods had some encounters that could go bad if the party just blundered in (like we did) or had an awkward mix for the enemy (as we also did because of last minute table switching).
Pint_Glass_Crusader 07-25-07, 08:54 AM	I agree that "trick fighting" specialised fighters can be extremely effective in a number of circumstances, but you forget the times when they are not (like oozes, incorporeal, certain constructs etc.), when their "tricks" don't work it is the time for the more "traditional" fighter builds to shine... it's swings and roundabouts. As a writer, I do not write adventures specifically to penalise characters who have invested heavily in trick styles, in fact I support individualised characters (there is nothing worse than havng a group of 6 "traditional" D&D style adventurers... I swing with my longsword, I magic missile, I heal, I hide in shadows... *yawn*). As a player I normally play a Monk (so trick fighting is my "bread & butter") and I know from bitter experience how annoying it is when I can't use my grapple/trip/stunning fist. So yes, grapple/trip etc. are strong, but also situational... if you run into encounters where they work all the time, then they start to appear overpowered... that is until the time comes when they let you down.
thorinXXX 07-25-07, 11:36 AM	The thing is that these attacks work best on people (and elves if you are from Ket;) ), that means that they remain viable against the PC's throughout thei careers. But they work much less offten againt opponents as the PC increases in level, because of masive strength and size increases which make such tactics less likely to succeed.
Morgen 07-25-07, 11:48 AM	Ummm, so it's said, Close Quarters Fighting is a very viable feat to use against a lot of things. There are a lot of grapple monsters out there in the game with abilities like Improved Grab and the like. 1 feat can help save you from being ripped apart limb from limb by a raging owlbear, this is good.
control freak 07-25-07, 12:12 PM	Heart of winter was deadly? The mod that spanked us in the series was the one before that. I suspect a party/apl band interaction. Neither mod was actually more or less deadly than others in the series with average party at the APL ranges I'm familiar with. But both mods had some encounters that could go bad if the party just blundered in (like we did) or had an awkward mix for the enemy (as we also did because of last minute table switching). this may be true but dominion, and pits at the wrong levels :rolleyes: had either out right wrong encounters, or broken templates and are hard even for tweaked characters because of mod writers being (i dont know which) curious about new stuff, or blatently trying for kills as for trip/grapple, get to higher APLs and the discussion becomes not if those are broken but if, fly, dim door, freedom of movement, delay death, emp ray of enfeblement, sudden maxed fire balls, conj ice beast/sandstorm version, and quickend 12d6 scorching rays, are the broken things i would be willing to bet that you dont have a 6th or 7th level character unless you dont play a caster because tipicaly at 7th level caster will always ignore grapple/trip with fly and freedom of movement, then use knowlage to see your saves and target your weak save with save or die spells
Pint_Glass_Crusader 07-25-07, 12:33 PM	What people are saying is correct. At lower levels, grapple/trip etc. are very effective, as most of the enemies you will face will be affected. Later, as sizes increase and the number of vulnerable opponents decreases, they become of less and less valuable. It is this reason that a two of [the more specialised] Fighters* in our group, retrained (at about level 6+) for more flexibilty... mostly into "Power Attack" monsters, which at high levels can be scarey! * Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Spiked Chain + Improved Trip + Combat Reflexes (+ Enlarge if you really want!) = low-level fighter brokeness! Grapple/Trip etc. still has it's place, but to rely on it, or become complaicent because you have it, can be suicide! However, I remember the day my [Enlarged] Monk grappled a green dragon... way back in the glory days! ;)
control freak 07-25-07, 12:39 PM	However, I remember the day my [Enlarged] Monk grappled a green dragon... way back in the glory days! reminds me of the old days (like 3-4 weeks lol) when my brothers marshal intimidated a copper shadow dragon :OMG! :nonono: :uh-huh: the dragon was afrade of him apperantly all those ablitys arent that good at higher levels, but things like "i power attack for 2 with 2 hands" turn to "i power attack for 6 with 2 hands, on a bat flying to you with spirited charge for 36 damage, from power attack"
LachlarlanIII 07-25-07, 04:46 PM	Tripping is a great tactic, if you can reliably pull it off. I have a character that can be +34 or higher to trip checks at mid-high level. I can't wait until the first time I trip a huge monster on a natural 1. :D
Pint_Glass_Crusader 07-25-07, 05:12 PM	As long as it ain't a huge ooze!!! :P
LachlarlanIII 07-25-07, 05:13 PM	As long as it ain't a huge ooze!!! :P I think I'd be quite surprised if I ended up tripping any size ooze even on a natural 20! :D
Cardinal Teplin 07-25-07, 06:05 PM	Tripping is a great tactic, if you can reliably pull it off. I have a character that can be +34 or higher to trip checks at mid-high level. I can't wait until the first time I trip a huge monster on a natural 1. :D Really, how?
LachlarlanIII 07-25-07, 06:13 PM	Really, how? Starting Str 14, Cha 15. Bump Cha to 18 by 12th level. Marshal Art of War aura - grants Cha bonus to disarm, trip, bull rush, and sunder attempts. Dragon Disciple 10 for +8 Str, +2 Cha. +6 Str belt, +6 Cha vest/cloak. +8 - Feat of Strength campaign card. +4 Size, +2 Str from size - Enlarge Person. +4 Improved Trip So that's 10 (Str) + 8 (Cha/Art of War) + 4 (Size) + 4 (Improved Trip) + 8 (Feat of Strength) = +34 on trip check before rolling. I'm sure there are more bonuses than that, but those are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head. And on top of all that, I'm a Hexblade, so I get to add my Cha bonus to saves vs. magical effects too. :) I had intended to have a Marshal cohort with the Motivate Strength aura for even more bonuses, but after numerous debates on exactly what "multiple marshal auras don't stack" means, I've given up on that thought.
clannagh 07-25-07, 07:07 PM	Starting Str 14, Cha 15. Bump Cha to 18 by 12th level. Marshal Art of War aura - grants Cha bonus to disarm, trip, bull rush, and sunder attempts. Dragon Disciple 10 for +8 Str, +2 Cha. +6 Str belt, +6 Cha vest/cloak. +8 - Feat of Strength campaign card. +4 Size, +2 Str from size - Enlarge Person. +4 Improved Trip So that's 10 (Str) + 8 (Cha/Art of War) + 4 (Size) + 4 (Improved Trip) + 8 (Feat of Strength) = +34 on trip check before rolling. I'm sure there are more bonuses than that, but those are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head. And on top of all that, I'm a Hexblade, so I get to add my Cha bonus to saves vs. magical effects too. :) I had intended to have a Marshal cohort with the Motivate Strength aura for even more bonuses, but after numerous debates on exactly what "multiple marshal auras don't stack" means, I've given up on that thought. Bracers of Might would add +2 to that for minimal cost.
LachlarlanIII 07-25-07, 07:28 PM	I know! I even have access! But it's adventure and I won't have the gold in time to afford them!!!!:(
clannagh 07-25-07, 08:04 PM	I know! I even have access! But it's adventure and I won't have the gold in time to afford them!!!!:( you could always play an adaptable :)
LachlarlanIII 07-25-07, 08:09 PM	you could always play an adaptable :) I'd have to play two and hope to get at least 1500 gold from both...:(
Samwise 07-25-07, 11:10 PM	Once you are a 10th level dragon disciple, you won't be able to use enlarge person. Your type will have changed to dragon.
Haro 07-25-07, 11:35 PM	as for trip/grapple, get to higher APLs and the discussion becomes not if those are broken but if, fly, dim door, freedom of movement, delay death, emp ray of enfeblement, sudden maxed fire balls, conj ice beast/sandstorm version, and quickend 12d6 scorching rays, are the broken things i would be willing to bet that you dont have a 6th or 7th level character unless you dont play a caster because tipicaly at 7th level caster will always ignore grapple/trip with fly and freedom of movement, then use knowlage to see your saves and target your weak save with save or die spells Dude, a couple of weeks ago you mentioned you only have 27 ARs of LG experience. Is there any chance you could ease off comments like the above until you actually get to high levels (like 14 or 15)? Criminy, it's like a 14 year old lecturing a 12 year old about life lessons...
solbergb 07-26-07, 12:20 AM	edit - never mind, forgot about doubling up with marshall aura. Interesting. Although using feat of strength is kinda overstaing "routinely' because it isn't part of the build and has issues if you need to trip the guy again or have a second opponent (as your str drops after using it) Also dragon disciple 10 and multiple +6 attribute items is not "mid-high level". For LG you're scraping retirement. And yeah - Haro's right - many, MANY level 7+ spellcasters are grappleable and/or trippable. While counters exist, they don't all have it, they don't all have the spell running if they do have it and they don't always get the counter off if they try to cast it (due to silence, getting interrupted) and even if they do have it, it might get dispelled. Spellcasters remain my best targets for the tactical feats, because they are so utterly hosed if you do stick it that it's worth trying and worth getting some assistance if required to make it happen. This is the difference between "board theory" and actual play. In actual play, the spellcaster does not in fact always have the right counter available, nor does it work all the time even if he does have it.
LGMoses 07-26-07, 01:02 AM	Ummm, so it's said, Close Quarters Fighting is a very viable feat to use against a lot of things. There are a lot of grapple monsters out there in the game with abilities like Improved Grab and the like. 1 feat can help save you from being ripped apart limb from limb by a raging owlbear, this is good. lol, had a player with a ranger learn last night that you don't need to get within full attack range of an owlbear. :devil:
Pint_Glass_Crusader 07-26-07, 02:57 AM	And yeah - Haro's right - many, MANY level 7+ spellcasters are grappleable and/or trippable. While counters exist, they don't all have it, they don't all have the spell running if they do have it and they don't always get the counter off if they try to cast it (due to silence, getting interrupted) and even if they do have it, it might get dispelled. Spellcasters remain my best targets for the tactical feats, because they are so utterly hosed if you do stick it that it's worth trying and worth getting some assistance if required to make it happen. This is the difference between "board theory" and actual play. In actual play, the spellcaster does not in fact always have the right counter available, nor does it work all the time even if he does have it. As a [primary monk] player, this is normally my job in a group, it might be a bit of meta-game thinking, but most mods don't include tactics for a spellcaster to use "Fly" spell before combat, and even if they do, I just grapple tham anyway. As a Monk I have little choice but to use "tricky combat", but my ability to give hard-to-reach spellcasters a hard time has proved invaluable in the past. Flurry of Blows + Improved Trip + Combat Reflexes = loads of fun!
LachlarlanIII 07-26-07, 09:29 AM	Once you are a 10th level dragon disciple, you won't be able to use enlarge person. Your type will have changed to dragon. This is true, but depending on how the Augmented Humanoid subtype actually functions, it still may work. In any case, I should have said Enlarge Person or other size increasing spell. edit - never mind, forgot about doubling up with marshall aura. Interesting. Although using feat of strength is kinda overstaing "routinely' because it isn't part of the build and has issues if you need to trip the guy again or have a second opponent (as your str drops after using it) At high level, I'll be ~+26 before the card, that's still pretty high. Also dragon disciple 10 and multiple +6 attribute items is not "mid-high level". For LG you're scraping retirement. By 9th level (mid-high) I'll be +22 before the card, and it won't be going up much more until I hit the levels just before retirement.
solbergb 07-26-07, 11:40 AM	There is a world of difference between +22 and +34. at +22, any size large quadruped will still beat you a significant percentage of the time, many of them half the time. You'll dominate the medium sized guys most of the time, but the occasional strong dwarf or whatever can still resist. You'll sometimes be able to trip a size huge enemy, if it isn't especially strong and is bipedal and rarely be able to trip the stronger size huge guys. at +34 you're now in the range of reliably tripping most size large enemies. It's a huge, huge difference. +22 by APL10ish I can easily believe with marshall aura and dragon disciple attribute boosts. My monk was +16ish at that time when enlarged and he doesn't have anything that bumps trip checks except improved trip.
Cardinal Teplin 07-26-07, 06:01 PM	I have a 6th level trip fighter with a reasonably respectable +13 to trip checks. He's only recently got high enough level to put it all together, but it seems to work reasonably well. You can't trip the really big stuff, but then you need to trip _everything_. The most common 'counter' I've seen is simply to stay on the ground and try to kill the tripper.
clannagh 07-26-07, 07:37 PM	I have a 6th level trip fighter with a reasonably respectable +13 to trip checks. He's only recently got high enough level to put it all together, but it seems to work reasonably well. You can't trip the really big stuff, but then you need to trip _everything_. The most common 'counter' I've seen is simply to stay on the ground and try to kill the tripper. My tripper has taken to smacking with his primary becasue it has an OK chance to hit and tripping with his secondary attack becasue at -5 he may as well try for a touch and trip. Which brings up an interesting question. I know its "traditional" to hit with your primaries first .. but does any rule actually specify it has to be in that order ? It would suit my character much better to trip with his secondary first and then use his primaries.
Mommy was an Orc 07-26-07, 08:01 PM	My tripper has taken to smacking with his primary becasue it has an OK chance to hit and tripping with his secondary attack becasue at -5 he may as well try for a touch and trip. Which brings up an interesting question. I know its "traditional" to hit with your primaries first .. but does any rule actually specify it has to be in that order ? It would suit my character much better to trip with his secondary first and then use his primaries. It is in the definition of full attack. Highest bonus to lowest. ----- Special attacks are great when you use them properly, but each has major downsides when they don't work or your party doesn't understand how to take advantage of it. Great when you trip something, but then again, there are going to be times where if you hadn't tried to trip, you would have killed your target. When you're a Grappler with a 14 AC at 6th level, it isn't particularly pleasant to see someone move into full attack range, your party not effectively blocking them off, and you're not the kind of grappler that takes people out rapidly.
TWG_Prometheus 07-27-07, 02:30 PM	It is in the definition of full attack. Highest bonus to lowest. Do we know if there's a ruling on how this works with natural attacks? I read over the SRD entry, and it said: "If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first." That makes sense just fine to me for the character's normal attack series, but the Dragon Disciple being discussed would have natural attacks, and would be able to make those attacks on a basis different than if 'your base attack bonus is high enough'. Do we know whether a trip-Dragon Disciple open with a Bite/0-2 Claws/Weapon attack series? I'd check the FAQ, but opening ZIP files is hard on the computer I'm at. :weep: My gut instinct says that in such a case the natural weapons are being treated as secondary attacks, which would place them last in the order...but I could be wrong. I have a Dragon Disciple-in-training, and this sort of thing could be very helpful to know.
solbergb 07-27-07, 02:43 PM	if you attack with manufactured weapon (including unarmed strike) all nat weaopns are secondaries and go after the iterative attack sequence. If you are attacking with normal nat weapons, all primaries go first, then all secondaries. I don't think any order is specified if there are multiples.
JamesMaissen 07-27-07, 03:53 PM	if you attack with manufactured weapon (including unarmed strike) all nat weaopns are secondaries and go after the iterative attack sequence. If you are attacking with normal nat weapons, all primaries go first, then all secondaries. I don't think any order is specified if there are multiples. I tend to go with the spirit of natural secondaries being based at BAB-X and insert them into the order of attacks that way. Thus if there are multiple attacks at a given base then they can be in any order, but attacks based on a higher base have to be taken before lower ones. Note this applies to flurries, TWF, rapid shot and haste attacks in my mind. -James
solbergb 07-27-07, 10:26 PM	Yeah, I'm pretty ok with secondaries being treated like bab-5, but I think the troll example in monster manual has them going after all the weapon attacks, so that's how I run and play it. Flurry, rapid shot and haste all go off with the "top" iterative attacks (ie first). TWF the "top" iteratives go offf, then the "-5" iteratives and so on, primary first, then offhand.
JamesMaissen 07-27-07, 11:03 PM	Yeah, I'm pretty ok with secondaries being treated like bab-5, but I think the troll example in monster manual has them going after all the weapon attacks, so that's how I run and play it. I think that's perforce by the unwieldy way you would otherwise have to list out the attacks (i.e. +11 (axe)/+6 (claw)/+6 (bite)/+6 (axe)/+1 (axe)) rather than an implied ordering. -James
Timlagor 07-29-07, 05:40 PM	Yeah, I'm pretty ok with secondaries being treated like bab-5, but I think the troll example in monster manual has them going after all the weapon attacks, so that's how I run and play it. Flurry, rapid shot and haste all go off with the "top" iterative attacks (ie first). TWF the "top" iteratives go offf, then the "-5" iteratives and so on, primary first, then offhand. 1) The secondary weapons also have to go in the "top" category by RAW. It's just arguable that they fit in with 'first iterative' but there's no excuse for putting them with the -10s. More importantly: 2) It's entirely up to the wielder which of their weapons they use first at each 'tier'. (so you're fine doing primary first so long as you don't try to impose it on other people)
solbergb 07-30-07, 03:06 PM	Yes, TWF doesn't say whether primary has to be first vs offhand. I wouldn't enforce it on a player, but it's what I think they intended based on how primary vs secondary natural weapons work.
Timlagor 07-30-07, 09:20 PM	The text in the Combat Chapter of the PHB is absolutely explicit that you can choose which order to take multiple attacks at hte same BAB in.
solbergb 07-30-07, 10:12 PM	"If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first." Yeah, you're right. I just never noticed those last two sentences.