Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GreatSiron 04-20-06, 11:39 PM	I had another idea at work, and I think I will use it in an intro mod this weekend. It's my first attempt at a wizard build, but I'm not so sure maxing his INT was such a hot idea. His Stats: Race:Grey Elf Class:Wizard Str:6 Dex:16 Con:12 Int:20 Wis:8 Cha:8 As it stands, that gives him 28 skill points (mostly knowledges), 5 HP (no less than any other elven mage) and a light carrying of 20 lbs. (Which is fine for someone who wears no armor and has only a crossbow). Any thing I'm missing? Also, any suggestions on what spells to start him off with?
redgamer 04-20-06, 11:50 PM	It doesn't matter what spells you pick at first level. None of them are very good. You can't keep up damage-wise with a fighter and your buffs and battlefeild control won't change many combats yet. Pick one offensive, one buff, one utility and then fill the rest with spell you think would be fun to cast. If you think spending to get a 20 int is too high it probably is. If you think spending to get a 20 int is just right it probably is. This is one decision that truely is a play style decision. You are missing feats and possibly prestige classes. If you don't know what feat to take take improved init or quicken. If no prestige classes sound fun straight wizard is plenty strong. If a prestige class does sound fun start meeting the prereqs now.
Jay_Ibero_911 04-21-06, 12:17 AM	You might want to go enchanter, take the spell focus's and go Fatespinner. You have maxed out int, so may as well take advantage of those high DC's. At Fatespinner 5, with seal fate, you could be almost guaranteed to steal someone's brain with a charm or dominate. really swing a battle if the main bad guy is suddenly your best friend.
GreatSiron 04-21-06, 12:54 AM	Thanks for the advice, but now I have another question: although a 6 str. would get me by with what little stuff I have, and I plan on getting a horse to carry my other stuff, a friend told me I was as good as shadowbait, and that a lvl 1 ray of enfeeblement could kill me. Should I worry about this and low my INT to 19 (he said I should raise it to 20 at 4th) or would I benefit more from the extra DC and 1st lvl spell?
Lomiat 04-21-06, 02:22 AM	Thanks for the advice, but now I have another question: although a 6 str. would get me by with what little stuff I have, and I plan on getting a horse to carry my other stuff, a friend told me I was as good as shadowbait, and that a lvl 1 ray of enfeeblement could kill me. Should I worry about this and low my INT to 19 (he said I should raise it to 20 at 4th) or would I benefit more from the extra DC and 1st lvl spell? You're shadow-bait only if you bother to put yourself in melee near shadows. Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't kill; it only disables. The 6 STR is a big bummer, but the 20 INT more than pays off for it. If you want to raise your STR, bring it up to 8 and drop some DEX (to 14). The post that said not to worry about battlefield control was a bit misguided as Color Spray and Sleep are HUGE at early levels. The biggest decision you have to make at this time is whether or not to specialize. I'd recommend that you don't, but if you do, it helps clarify some of your feat choices (Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus). Improved Init is also a great feat for dedicated spellcasters.
King Kashue 04-21-06, 03:50 AM	I had another idea at work, and I think I will use it in an intro mod this weekend. It's my first attempt at a wizard build, but I'm not so sure maxing his INT was such a hot idea. His Stats: Race:Grey Elf Class:Wizard Str:6 Dex:16 Con:12 Int:20 Wis:8 Cha:8 This is the classic min/max wizard grey elf wiz build...Dex for targeted spells & AC, Crazy high int for bonus spells and Spell save DC, and no discernable social abilities...
GreatSiron 04-21-06, 10:48 AM	Thanks for the advice. I think I will leave his Int at 20. A 6 strength might not be much, but when all you carry into combat is a light crossbow and a dagger, it's not really a problem. (They weigh a combined 6 lbs with ammo, and my spell pouch is only 2 lbs, so that's 8 lbs). Now the question is, to specialize or not to specialize. If I do specialize, illusion and necromancy are the two schools that will be prohibited. Do I gain anything special by going specialize?
Sieylianna 04-21-06, 12:27 PM	Thanks for the advice. I think I will leave his Int at 20. A 6 strength might not be much, but when all you carry into combat is a light crossbow and a dagger, it's not really a problem. (They weigh a combined 6 lbs with ammo, and my spell pouch is only 2 lbs, so that's 8 lbs). Now the question is, to specialize or not to specialize. If I do specialize, illusion and necromancy are the two schools that will be prohibited. Do I gain anything special by going specialize? I don't think a 20 Intelligence is worth it (and I have an 18th level grey elf wizard who started with an 18 and a 6 Strength). A 6 strength is scary. I survived with it due to luck, a good initiative (+7 at 1st level), and anihilating any threat of this type - ignoring everything else. Do not carry a crossbow. Take a longbow since you're an elf. The move action to reload a crossbow should be avoided. (I have PCs who are using a shortbow so they can fire and move in a round). Necromancy as an opposition school is bad because it costs you false life, which is one of the few long duration buffs and you need the hit points. Ed
opa 04-21-06, 01:32 PM	its like looking at my character sheet..lol same stats.. enchanter.. I also chose crossbow... the -2 to damage from a bow wasn't appealing..and I didn't figure on more than a shot or two in combat anyway he's first level and its been good so I don't have advice on higher levels..
Cardinal Teplin 04-21-06, 01:40 PM	A longbow isn't a good idea with a low strength. Take a crossbow. A light crossbow, since the extra time needed to reload a heavy one is a problem unless you're expecting it. As for specialisation.... On the plus side, you gain an extra per day each level. That is a lot. Wizards only ever get a few of their highest level spells each day, no matter what level they are. It also lessens the chance of chosing the wrong spell to memorise that day, since you have more of them. That said, generalists get plenty of spells. Specialists just get more. The problem is that every school has something you might want. Illusion has some interesting illusion spells which you can probably do without, but many people would baulk at not getting mirror image (wiz 2) , one of the better defensive spells out there. Similarly, not getting necromancy means not getting ray of enfeeblement (wiz 1) which is nice, but missable, and not getting false life, which again is a good defensive buff. Dumping any school will lose you spells you may need. As it happens, I play a specialist wizard who casts none of those spells, and I've just hit 5th level, so no choice is the wrong choice. If you're not going to have many defensive spells, then you'll need to rely on the rest of the party to keep you alive. It's a valid tactic, but have a good hard look at the people you're likely to be playing with. If you trust them with your character's life, then fine. If not, or worse still, if you're playing at conventions with people you don't know, then you probably want some defenses, which means mage armour, false life and mirror image. The other thing to watch for is those long duration buff spells. Once they reach mid-level, wizards have an awful lot of low level spells. By this stage, they aren't very powerful compared to the monsters you'll be facing, so they don't make good combat options. You're unlikely to get more than about 15 combat rounds in an adventure, so most of your low level spells end up being cast outside of combat, or not at all. That makes all the general utility spells and long duration spells much more useful than they appear. My character is a grey elf with stats... identical to yours. He's a specialist caster, dumping charm and illusion. I didn't take those because they rely the most on DM interpretation, and I felt that in LG you're not likely to know your DM very well, and thus not know what he'll consider reasonable and what he won't. Whether I was right, time will tell. The most common schools to dump are illusion, necromancy, charm and evocation. But I'd say slightly more than half of the wizards don't specialise at all. It's your call. :-)
Lomiat 04-21-06, 01:49 PM	As a specialist the schools you'd give up depend largely on what you hope to do with the school in which you specialize. That said, despite the fact Necromancy has fewer spells (and a darker nature) and people commonly give it up, it (along with Conjuration and Transmutation) provides some of the most useful spells, scaling up in power as you gain levels. Evocation can be almost entirely replaced by damage spells from Conjuration. Yes, you'd lose Magic Missile and Fireball, but in a party of 4 to 6 PCs, the actions that you take for those spells almost invariably turn into more damage when you buff your entire party. Abjuration provides a few critical spells (many mods provide extreme penalties if you don't have Endure Elements, and many monsters mess with a party that doesn't have Protection from Evil), but if someone else is around to provide those key spells, you can ditch this one without too much regret. Illusion is good if you want to be Invisible and not so much of a target. Also, it's a creative player's chance to try crazy stuff. It's a school you can dump if you're fine with remaining a target, but I would keep it. Enchantment is pretty clear-cut. If you want the spells, you keep it. If you feel you'd rather do other things, dump it. Enchanters make good specialists, but then you have to figure out what to dump. Conjuration is too important to dump. So is Transmutation. Most of what you can do as a wizard will come from these schools, more so as you gain levels and can start casting Evard's Black Tentacles, Haste, Slow, Dimension Door, Teleport, Fly, etc. My favorite specialist idea is the Enchanter 9/Fatespinner 4/Archmage. Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (enchantment), Spell Focus (necromancy), Improved Init, Skill Focus (spellcraft), Craft Wondrous Item. With Enchantment spells targetting Will saves and Necromancy spells targetting Fort saves (and Enervation for those high Will and Fort types), you go a long way toward versatility.
opa 04-21-06, 06:10 PM	It also depends alot on the region you play in.. specialization was an easy choice for me..at low levels the extra spells are needed especially since my build, and alot of other peoples apparently doesnt do much else than cast, and because all necromancy spells are illegal in Bissel anyway, so it really only cost me 1 school... enchantment seemed a great choice because with a 20 int his dc for spells will be pretty high and its a school that optimizes that.. although transmuter and conjurer had me looking at them for a while
Nerax 04-21-06, 09:45 PM	You should also consider specializing in Divination as each level has usefull spells that won't go wasted on any adventure. Plus you only lose access to one school instead of two. What school to drop is up to you. I chose Enchantment to drop but for your character with the high DC's of spells you will cast Enchantment might not be as good. You could still do spell focus and greater spell focus (Ench). Abjuration is also really good if you want to go Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. my two bits :D
JamesMaissen 04-24-06, 10:19 AM	I had another idea at work, and I think I will use it in an intro mod this weekend. It's my first attempt at a wizard build, but I'm not so sure maxing his INT was such a hot idea. Any thing I'm missing? Also, any suggestions on what spells to start him off with? There are many different wizard builds out there. This is a fairly common set of stats for a grey elf wizard that people choose. It has its weaknesses and it's strengths. Are these the ones that you wish to have? Many wizards will have a very low strength score, period. Whether its a 6 or an 8 doesn't make that much difference as either will be easy meat for shadows. The 6 stat is just nasty in that a bad roll can get that with just one hit from a low level shadow.. but then so can a similar roll from a greater get the ubiquitous 8 strength wizard. Let alone a pair of them going after you. This and the standard 'grab him' weakness (against grapples) are going to be real weaknesses for you. Take and/or plan to take steps to shore up these weaknesses. Most wizards, for example, will have atleast one way out of a grapple planned. Likewise by going elf you will have poor hps. You are fragile and brittle (ie beyond crunchy) and should understand this. Towards that I would (when considering specializing) not wish to find myself without access to both necromancy and illusion spells for defense. False life and magic jar are great necromantic wizard protections, while illusion simply scales it's protection up as you level. Misdirection is a powerful tool. Now when considering metagaming, you should do so fully.. for example while it can indeed vary by judge, that's not always a weakness as it will also show you how good/bad a judge you have early on. In exchange for these weaknesses you gain a slight dex advantage and an increased INT score. These you must take advantage of lest you pay with weaknesses for no return. The high dex can allow ranged touch spells, etc. But it's the INT that drew you here.. take save or be done spells. Augment these with either metamagics and/or spell focuses. Pick PrCs that mesh with this and augment strengths. Personally I'm not a big fan of specialization for a wizard. The wizard should always have the solution to a given roadblock for the party. His bag of tricks needs to go really deep. Consumables and other means of extending his flexibility are very important. But view specialization as yet another choice of adding weaknesses for gaining strengths. If the strengths are what you want while the weaknesses are in things you don't desire... But ask yourself what weaknesses you are comfortable with as well as what strengths you can fully exploit. Don't buy a lemon. For example, if you are not as impressed with the elven dexterity and decide that you don't care for ranged touch spells while at the same time being very worried about your strength score.. then simply go with a 10-12 strength and take these points from dexterity. However, when you are done 'tweaking' you must then stop and take a good look at the character. First and foremost, is the end result as a whole delivering what I want to deliver? Secondly, could I deliver the same things with another build (say changing races)? Third, will this be a fun character to play? -James
GreatSiron 04-24-06, 10:35 PM	I took my new character to a convention in Verbobonc (I think that's how it's spelled, I can't even say it right), and he did extremely well in the intro mods I put him in. I ended up using Color Spray quite often, and nothing I hit ever made it's save. Combined with charm person and cause fear, and I never once broke the "no lethal damage" rule that the region has. Which is the reason why I left my warmage and cleric home in the Yeomanry, they like to cause damage (and one of them likes to cause riots, and he could have actually done that in one mod). But now a new question: what spells should he learn, and should they be on scrolls or memorized? He is now 2nd lvl and knows 12 spells: Cause Fear Ray of Enfeeblement Grease Protection From Evil Magic Missle Mage Armor Charm Person Color Spray Comprehend Languages Endure Elements Enlarge Person Magic Weapon Any other good 1st lvl spells? What should his first two 2nd lvl's be? I'm thinking False Life and a good DC based spell.
opa 04-24-06, 11:44 PM	alter self-- go trog and hello +6 natural armor and goodbye strength penalty glitterdust- seen it used very effectively scare and false life if you can use necromancy.. scorching ray for direct damage web and invisibility for escape if you get in too deep you should probably add sleep to your repetoire cuz you have such good dc's and unseen servant can be used in so many cheesy situations its a must
redgamer 04-25-06, 12:43 AM	Alter self is not a good spell until higher levels. If you use all you level 2 slots on defense you have the pitiful offense. At higher level when your offense is 3th and 4th level spells and alter self lasts over an hour it is good. If you are a fighter mage it is always good and often great. Alter self explicitly does not change your ability scores. If you want an in combat defensive spell look to the illusion school. There aren't enough times 30 minutes is long enough to prebuff but 3 minutes isn't. I'd still cast glitterdust everyday if it where third level. The other spells will be more or less useful depending on your party. For me, invisibility is the spell most often left uncast at the end of the day. I still think it should be in everyone's spellbook
Lomiat 04-25-06, 01:30 AM	Glitterdust and False Life are the best 2 choices. Once you can start casting additional 2nd level spells, consider Scorching Ray (if you want to do damage), and See Invisibility (so you know where to aim your Glitterdust). A few other spells that will be good to learn in time are Invisibility, Mirror Image, Shatter, and Blindness/Deafness.
Namarus 04-25-06, 11:09 AM	I took my new character to a convention in Verbobonc (I think that's how it's spelled, I can't even say it right), and he did extremely well in the intro mods I put him in. I ended up using Color Spray quite often, and nothing I hit ever made it's save. Combined with charm person and cause fear, and I never once broke the "no lethal damage" rule that the region has. Which is the reason why I left my warmage and cleric home in the Yeomanry, they like to cause damage (and one of them likes to cause riots, and he could have actually done that in one mod). But now a new question: what spells should he learn, and should they be on scrolls or memorized? He is now 2nd lvl and knows 12 spells: Cause Fear Ray of Enfeeblement Grease Protection From Evil Magic Missle Mage Armor Charm Person Color Spray Comprehend Languages Endure Elements Enlarge Person Magic Weapon Any other good 1st lvl spells? What should his first two 2nd lvl's be? I'm thinking False Life and a good DC based spell. You can kill enemies in Verbobonc, you just have to not get caught :)
GreatSiron 04-25-06, 09:42 PM	Thanks for your suggestions. But what about learning spells past 4th lvl, when you can no longer buy scrolls to learn them? Am I stuck just learning two spells per lvl, or is there another option?
kenobi65 04-25-06, 10:08 PM	You can kill enemies in Verbobonc, you just have to not get caught :) I was gonna ask, "we've got a 'no lethal damage rule' here in Verbobonc?" News to me. Well, not exactly. Unleashing big-boom spells in Verbobonc City is frowned on, as is killing human-types (esp. those who work for the nobles). But, run into some orcs in the Gnarley Forest, I don't think anyone's going to mind you wiping them out.
kenobi65 04-25-06, 10:11 PM	But what about learning spells past 4th lvl, when you can no longer buy scrolls to learn them? Am I stuck just learning two spells per lvl, or is there another option? That's what captured spellbooks on the AR are for.
GreatSiron 04-25-06, 10:58 PM	Well, now that I know where I can obtain spells, now I have yet another question (I seem to have a lot of them). Which two item creation feats are the best? I was thinking Craft Wonderous Item and Craft Wand, but I'd like to hear what others have to say first.
kenobi65 04-25-06, 11:40 PM	I haven't played an arcanist yet, but given that (a) you need access to buy any wand at all, but (b) you can craft a wand of any spell you know, I have to think that Craft Wand would be very useful.
Lomiat 04-26-06, 12:49 AM	Thanks for your suggestions. But what about learning spells past 4th lvl, when you can no longer buy scrolls to learn them? Am I stuck just learning two spells per lvl, or is there another option? In addition to captured spellbooks, other sources for spells higher than 4th level include: a) Other casters at your table (especially effective during interactives) b) Favors - save these. Don't blow them on spells below 5th level. c) Some metaorgs.
Sieylianna 04-26-06, 07:45 AM	Well, now that I know where I can obtain spells, now I have yet another question (I seem to have a lot of them). Which two item creation feats are the best? I was thinking Craft Wonderous Item and Craft Wand, but I'd like to hear what others have to say first. Craft Wonderous item is definitely one to take. Unless you're planing on dual wand wielder or arcane disciple, I don't know that you'll get that much use out of craft wand. My wizard retired at 18th purchasing the wands she needed - detect secret doors, detect magic, shield, mage armor, magic missile, cure light wounds and a couple more. You can always scribe scrolls for this which are used infrequently. Ed
chitzk0i 04-26-06, 09:39 AM	Craft Wondrous Item is a good idea. You can craft any item that appears on any of your ARs, so access: adventure is much less of a restriction for you.
PaulH 04-26-06, 10:08 AM	Glitterdust and False Life are the best 2 choices. Once you can start casting additional 2nd level spells, consider Scorching Ray (if you want to do damage), and See Invisibility (so you know where to aim your Glitterdust). A few other spells that will be good to learn in time are Invisibility, Mirror Image, Shatter, and Blindness/Deafness. And Lssr Acid Orb..... ;) Cheers Paul H
GreatSiron 04-26-06, 11:59 AM	Craft Wonderous item is definitely one to take. Unless you're planing on dual wand wielder or arcane disciple, I don't know that you'll get that much use out of craft wand. My wizard retired at 18th purchasing the wands she needed - detect secret doors, detect magic, shield, mage armor, magic missile, cure light wounds and a couple more. You can always scribe scrolls for this which are used infrequently. Ed I do not plan on taking either of those. What craft feat should I take instead, or is Craft Wonderous all I really need?
Namarus 04-26-06, 12:19 PM	Craft Wonderous Item is about all you ever need. Craft wands is nice but not really needed. Your two most important items from craft wonderous will be: Boccab's Blessed Book Pearl Of Powers I strongly suggest that by level 7 (if you have AR access) or level 9 (if you don't) to have the money ready to make the Boccab's Blessed Book. In the meanwhile I would suggest being very fugual with regards to adding spells to your spellbook. The 100gp per page really adds up. Buying spellbooks off ARs can be a cheap alternative, but you will need to spend TUs mastering the spellbook before you can use it. Often those spellbooks will be much cheaper than the 100gp scribing costs. If you do take craft wands, examine closely the spells that you will be making wands for. Generally you will want spells which aren't limited much by the caster level. Utility spells as has been suggested above are particularly useful, this allows you to stock up on your bread and butter spells that can be modified by your CL.
GreatSiron 04-26-06, 04:52 PM	What do I do with Boccob's Blessed Book? It just says that I can ignore the 25 gp materials cost, but in LG the cost is 100 gp. How much would it let me ignore, the 100 or just the 25?
Sieylianna 04-26-06, 05:30 PM	What do I do with Boccob's Blessed Book? It just says that I can ignore the 25 gp materials cost, but in LG the cost is 100 gp. How much would it let me ignore, the 100 or just the 25? You ignore the 100 gp per level per page cost to add spells to your BBB. In one two-round metaregional last year, I added 34 spells of levels 6 through 9th to my BBB. At no cost beyond the initial purchase of a BBB. Ed
GreatSiron 04-26-06, 10:12 PM	Well that's definatly worth the cost, seeing as it will only cost me 6250 gp to make, which is probably a fourth of what I'd pay to scribe all the spells I want to scribe (which is all of them I can get access too). But now to a different question, what other wonderous items should I look into making? (I have plans on a Heward's Handy Haversack and several of the stat boosting items). Pearls of Power are also high on my list.
Namarus 04-26-06, 10:40 PM	This is my normal list. 1 TU - Stat Item +2, PoP L1 1 TU - PoP L2, PoP L1 3 TU - Blessed Book 1 TU - Cloak or Vest Of Resistance +2, PoP L1 1 TU - Handy Haversack, PoP L1 x3 1 TU - Phylactery of Faithfulness, PoP L2 (This is a great item for avoiding evil stuff, or picking up bad stuff from deities even if your not a cleric.) 1 TU - 2x Scarab Of Golem Bane (Tanks will love you when you hand these out, plus it's a good way to work out if there is a golem nearby and you don't have to waste spells on it.) I'm sure you get the idea. Remember you can make five items whose total value from the DMG = 5,000gp, or you can make one item whose value exceeds 5,000gp. Also you may upgrade your items, but you can only upgrade one item at a time.
JamesMaissen 04-28-06, 10:26 AM	Well that's definatly worth the cost, seeing as it will only cost me 6250 gp to make, which is probably a fourth of what I'd pay to scribe all the spells I want to scribe (which is all of them I can get access too). But now to a different question, what other wonderous items should I look into making? (I have plans on a Heward's Handy Haversack and several of the stat boosting items). Pearls of Power are also high on my list. There are too many things that you will want to craft is the short answer. Certainly a Boccob's, a Heward's, CON/INT boosters and Pearls. But also you always want to have a top level vest of resistance (if you can find access at one point or another). I say vest, because you will need to decide upon one of the many cloaks out there while there are very few (if any) vests to interest you. Towards the cloak list here are some to consider: Cape of the Mountebank, Cloak of Arachnia, Wings of Flying, and Cloak of Displacement. Then there are boots, ioun stones, random gloves, etc. I would do two things: First go through the DMG list (as well as items you've found access to in modules) and make lists based on slot what you would want at one time or another. Secondly consider crafting items for other PCs to wear.. crafting makes things so much cheaper and there are things that will augment most parties that a wizard could bring to the table even if it's not optimal for him to directly use. Just save some cash to purchase the occasional metamagic rod when it shows up and your only trouble will be deciding what of all the things you desire you should craft first, James
GreatSiron 04-28-06, 10:56 AM	Thanks for all the responses everyone. All I have to do now is figure out which two metamagic feats would help me the most. I'm actually thinking highten spell to boost the DC' of certain spells and empower spell to boost my ray spells and fireball. (Which also plays off my higher DC's) Are these decent feats, or are there better ones?
Sieylianna 04-28-06, 05:23 PM	Thanks for all the responses everyone. All I have to do now is figure out which two metamagic feats would help me the most. I'm actually thinking highten spell to boost the DC' of certain spells and empower spell to boost my ray spells and fireball. (Which also plays off my higher DC's) Are these decent feats, or are there better ones? I wouldn't take either of these. My preference, if you have access, is extend spell and sudden maximize. Empower costs two levels and lesser rods of empower are common. Lesser extend is also relatively common, but the one level hit isn't bad since regular extend wands are rare. Lots of people like sculpt spell, but I never thought it was worth the cost. Ed
TallGuy 04-29-06, 04:35 PM	My Wizard (just got to level 12) has Extend Spell (for those great all day long buffs, like (greater) mage armor, Detect Scrying every other day, Anticipate Teleportation every other day, etc...), Energy Substitution (Acid) to get the best damage type available, and Rapid Spell at level 12 for that standard action Dominate Person :D It'll be great throwing around Dominate Persons around, as well as faster Summon Monster spells.