Post/Author/DateTime	Post
control freak 07-25-07, 06:27 PM	what exactly is the greyhawk method and are there any of the other feats that are now opened to new pcs from ruins of greyhawk that are good?
delewobmesid 07-25-07, 06:33 PM	greyhawk method double the spells put into your spellbook each time you would through leveling up; only good for a wizard, but might extend budgets and spellbooks a long way...
LGMoses 07-26-07, 01:18 AM	it is awesome. like he says 4 spells per level in ur spellbook for free, not 2. that doubles a wizards versatility while saving TONS of gold. Then, at every 5th level you may now take as a bonus feat some stuff like: spell focus, greater spell focus, combat cating, magical aptitude, spell penetration, greater spell penetration, etc. I've been eyeing for the past couple of days just salivating over the idea of having it...
Jay_Ibero_911 07-26-07, 01:25 AM	it is awesome. like he says 4 spells per level in ur spellbook for free, not 2. that doubles a wizards versatility while saving TONS of gold. Then, at every 5th level you may now take as a bonus feat some stuff like: spell focus, greater spell focus, combat cating, magical aptitude, spell penetration, greater spell penetration, etc. I've been eyeing for the past couple of days just salivating over the idea of having it... Greyhawk Method is convenient if nothing else...thought the feat benefit only really pays off if you take 10 or 15 wizard levels. Why take Greyhawk Method to be able to take other things as bonus feats when you could just take that feat instead, unless you will get more than one bonus feat out of it...
Lupo 07-26-07, 03:02 AM	Greyhawk Method is convenient if nothing else...thought the feat benefit only really pays off if you take 10 or 15 wizard levels. Why take Greyhawk Method to be able to take other things as bonus feats when you could just take that feat instead, unless you will get more than one bonus feat out of it... and at level 9 of almost any wizard's career, your character will be able to craft his own boccob's blessed book. most wizards take craft wondrous items at level 5 or 6 and have the money to do so around level 7 or 8. so the feat might save half of the gold a wizard spends for some 12 spells up to level THREE or maybe some 16 spells up to level FOUR. in total some 1200 gp or maybe even some 2000 gp. this changes of course, if your wizard gets none or seldom chance of adventuring with other wizards. gets seldom access to plundered spellbooks or is "bound" in RHoD. ciao martin m.
ShinAkuma2 07-27-07, 01:35 PM	Why take Greyhawk Method to be able to take other things as bonus feats when you could just take that feat instead, unless you will get more than one bonus feat out of it... Because now you have that feat AND more spells. :)
rutrow424 07-27-07, 03:19 PM	it is awesome. like he says 4 spells per level in ur spellbook for free, not 2. that doubles a wizards versatility while saving TONS of gold. Then, at every 5th level you may now take as a bonus feat some stuff like: spell focus, greater spell focus, combat cating, magical aptitude, spell penetration, greater spell penetration, etc. I've been eyeing for the past couple of days just salivating over the idea of having it... My gish PC has this feat via a metaorg and will train out of it over the next 2 levels (paying the 2200 in gp saved, of course). With spells only costing 100gp per spell level, a 15th level wizard is only saving 12,800 gp on scribing these spells. As others have noted, unless you have no means of acquiring those spells via meta-orgs, favors, or other wizards, you are not likely saving tons of gold. The convenience of not worrying about it, and the extra bonus feats, are the main attractions.
Timlagor 07-29-07, 05:15 PM	It's even worse than that. Once you have your BBB you can copy your spells in there and your 'level up free spells' in your spellbooks will increase the value enough that you can recoup all the money you spent on copying spells earlier in your career (though not the cost of scrolls if you paid for those to get the spells).
bitznarf 07-29-07, 05:20 PM	So your saying that on average you'll save less money with this feat than you would with your average crafting feat?
Lupo 07-29-07, 06:01 PM	So your saying that on average you'll save less money with this feat than you would with your average crafting feat? definitely - cartloads of gp with Craft Wondrous Item, your headband +6 alone will save you all the money Greyhawk Method will ever yield if you don't buy a BBB :) and with a BBB the gp that come out of the Greyhawk Method are way lower. a straight caster wizard has not so much use for Craft Arms & Armor. but even your lousy Scribe Scroll is more useful - ok, mostly because it comes for free ;) sorry to blast it, but Greyhawk Method is a booby trap :P ciao martin m.
Hariman 07-29-07, 09:07 PM	definitely - cartloads of gp with Craft Wondrous Item, your headband +6 alone will save you all the money Greyhawk Method will ever yield if you don't buy a BBB :) and with a BBB the gp that come out of the Greyhawk Method are way lower. a straight caster wizard has not so much use for Craft Arms & Armor. but even your lousy Scribe Scroll is more useful - ok, mostly because it comes for free ;) sorry to blast it, but Greyhawk Method is a booby trap :P ciao martin m. 16,100 GP at level 10. That's a small amount of gold? You can craft TWO +4 stat boosting items with that gold. Or two Boccob's Blessed Books and an extra smaller item. For the record, that's one half of the cost of the extra spells in your spellbook and the cost of the 18 scrolls that it would normally take to scribe those spells into your spellbook. (Only 6800GP at level 10 if you can scribe without buying scrolls.) But here's the catch. Greyhawk Method is MOST useful at higher levels. I haven't heard of a great deal of higher level (level 5 plus) Spell Compendium spells being tossed around on scrolls and in spellbooks. So using Greyhawk method can net you an extra two non-phb spells for free AND you can use the saved money to scribe the normal spells into your book from a library or captured spellbook. Not to mention still being able to recoup your loss by scribing into a Boccob's Blessed Book and selling your old spellbook. And believe me. Having extra options is a great thing. Especially if you spend a feat on Alacritous Cogitation. Plus, the most often heard complaint I hear about wizards is "Why don't you have that spell?"
Lupo 07-30-07, 03:20 AM	16,100 GP at level 10. That's a small amount of gold? You can craft TWO +4 stat boosting items with that gold. Or two Boccob's Blessed Books and an extra smaller item. For the record, that's one half of the cost of the extra spells in your spellbook and the cost of the 18 scrolls that it would normally take to scribe those spells into your spellbook. (Only 6800GP at level 10 if you can scribe without buying scrolls.) But here's the catch. Greyhawk Method is MOST useful at higher levels. I haven't heard of a great deal of higher level (level 5 plus) Spell Compendium spells being tossed around on scrolls and in spellbooks. So using Greyhawk method can net you an extra two non-phb spells for free AND you can use the saved money to scribe the normal spells into your book from a library or captured spellbook. Not to mention still being able to recoup your loss by scribing into a Boccob's Blessed Book and selling your old spellbook. And believe me. Having extra options is a great thing. Especially if you spend a feat on Alacritous Cogitation. Plus, the most often heard complaint I hear about wizards is "Why don't you have that spell?" highly depends on A) how often your wizard adventures with other wizards and therefore gets the opportunity to copy spells from their spell books ;) B) how often your wizard finds out-of-PHB spells in modules or meta organizations. for my wizard both points have happened and will continue to happen so often that he gets lots of opportunities to scribe out-of-PHB spells in his book - ok, and he is a bright sands wizard as well, so lots of sandstorm spells on top of it. another point is the spells per day a wizard gets to cast - wizards gets the fewest spells/day of all full caster classes (cleric, druid, sorcerer, favored soul): 4 spells in any given spell level is the maximum, add another one spell for high intelligence (ok, two spells for spell levels 1 to 5 for really high intelligence score) this is much more limiting than the absolute number of spells a wizard knows and as nice as some of the OPEN out-of-PHB spells are for a specific situation most of them are variants or variations of PHB spells. the exception are the orb spells, and they are so because a silly flaw spot in the rules: "unbeatable spell resistance". so any wizard who created a golem would have no normal means to destroy it (in the PHB) apart from using a zillion of "Melf's Acid Arrow" and "Acid Splash" etc. ciao martin m.
Timlagor 07-30-07, 07:29 AM	I haven't felt a particular shortage of Spell Access up to 11th level. Since the non-GM Wizard has recouped all his spell-scribing costs before 10th level anyway, there is no gold saving at that point. The extra access is nice but it simply isn't worth a Feat even to the people who don't get to meet many other Wizards. (Golems that are Blind and Prone from Glitterdust and Grease tend to fall fast ime)
Hariman 07-30-07, 09:04 AM	highly depends on A) how often your wizard adventures with other wizards and therefore gets the opportunity to copy spells from their spell books ;) B) how often your wizard finds out-of-PHB spells in modules or meta organizations. for my wizard both points have happened and will continue to happen so often that he gets lots of opportunities to scribe out-of-PHB spells in his book - ok, and he is a bright sands wizard as well, so lots of sandstorm spells on top of it. another point is the spells per day a wizard gets to cast - wizards gets the fewest spells/day of all full caster classes (cleric, druid, sorcerer, favored soul): 4 spells in any given spell level is the maximum, add another one spell for high intelligence (ok, two spells for spell levels 1 to 5 for really high intelligence score) this is much more limiting than the absolute number of spells a wizard knows and as nice as some of the OPEN out-of-PHB spells are for a specific situation most of them are variants or variations of PHB spells. the exception are the orb spells, and they are so because a silly flaw spot in the rules: "unbeatable spell resistance". so any wizard who created a golem would have no normal means to destroy it (in the PHB) apart from using a zillion of "Melf's Acid Arrow" and "Acid Splash" etc. ciao martin m. Ah, there's the problem. My wizard hasn't been able to copy a spectacular number of spells, and he took multiple "major gold hits" over his career. (Multiple deaths and the worst AR item ever, which takes all of your gold and equipment.) He's gotten a couple chances to plunder spellbooks, but his behind the curve gold total makes it hard for him to scribe spells or buy a spellbook. I had to sell my character's purchased spellbook and Haversack to survive a recent mod. You really need to dedicate yourself to making Greyhawk Method useful to make it useful. Oh, and I prefer specialist wizards. Hariman PS: Core only wizards are shafted by acid absorbing clay golems. And I'd say summoning is one way to bypass SR.
Maesto 07-30-07, 11:19 AM	Mmm... I've got a 14th level wizard at the moment who has every open 7th level spell and lower, spread across multiple spellbooks. I have all bar a handful of 8th and 9th level spells also. Open your eyes; there are plenty of ways to get more spells in your spellbook than through using this feat.
Hariman 07-30-07, 12:16 PM	Mmm... I've got a 14th level wizard at the moment who has every open 7th level spell and lower, spread across multiple spellbooks. I have all bar a handful of 8th and 9th level spells also. Open your eyes; there are plenty of ways to get more spells in your spellbook than through using this feat. Mage of the Arcane Order, right? No, wait. I roll to disbelieve. What did you do? Sign up for metaorgs and spend all of your money on buying new spells? I find it hard to believe that you have EVERY open spell out there. Even at level 14. Except, perhaps, via multiple Boccob's Blessed books and multiple opportunities to copy from other spellbooks. Unless I'm mistaken, that's not financially possible, considering the number of spells out there. Really now. I have seen spell access here and there. My sorcerer will eventually get Wall of Sand, among other spells. But it's not that often. And success isn't guaranteed. And like I said before, having the money to buy the spellbook or the option to keep it isn't guaranteed either.
Maesto 07-30-07, 11:07 PM	No, I'm serious. Multiple Boccobs are required. And yes, I have spent an inordinate amount of gold getting all of the spells. I tell a lie actually, I don't have all of the necromancy ones, as they're forbidden for me. Step 1) All free level up spells are taken from non-PHB sources. Step 2) All 1st and 2nd level scrolls from the DMG were purchased to put into the spellbooks. A bunch of 3rd, 4th, and when access came up, 5th and 6th level spells were acquired in this manner. Step 3) Every time a spellbook comes up on an AR, you're allowed to copy all of the CORE spells out of it without purchasing it. There have been a few spellbooks around; Iuz metaregional games had some (Lost But Not Forgotten was a good example, as was Walking in His Shoes and Experimentation). Step 4) Every time a friendly NPC wizard is in a module with a statted spellbook or you plunder an unfriendly NPC wizard's spellbook, even if it doesn't appear on the AR, you can copy CORE spells from them after that adventure. One recent module I played had a wizard with a huge number of spells in his spellbook. Step 5) Copy spells from other wizards. If you play with them regularly, coordinate this. I coordinated with one other wizard. Play a wizard in an interactive - mucho spello copyingo. Step 6) A few favours have come up on ARs which let you copy two spells for scribing price. Shedding Scales was one of them. Step 7) Find a metaorg that has a library. Metaorgs are allowed to have libraries :) Ratik's arcane academy has a limited library (all open spells up to 4th level, PHB spells up to 6th level), and Perrenland's wizard's guild has a library that includes all open 8th level spells, provided you meet the prereqs to get into that tier (which I don't). You can get there. Trust me. Sure, I know I'll never use most of the spells. But I've got Pokemon syndrome...
Hariman 07-30-07, 11:42 PM	No, I'm serious. Multiple Boccobs are required. And yes, I have spent an inordinate amount of gold getting all of the spells. I tell a lie actually, I don't have all of the necromancy ones, as they're forbidden for me. Step 1) All free level up spells are taken from non-PHB sources. Step 2) All 1st and 2nd level scrolls from the DMG were purchased to put into the spellbooks. A bunch of 3rd, 4th, and when access came up, 5th and 6th level spells were acquired in this manner. Step 3) Every time a spellbook comes up on an AR, you're allowed to copy all of the CORE spells out of it without purchasing it. There have been a few spellbooks around; Iuz metaregional games had some (Lost But Not Forgotten was a good example, as was Walking in His Shoes and Experimentation). Step 4) Every time a friendly NPC wizard is in a module with a statted spellbook or you plunder an unfriendly NPC wizard's spellbook, even if it doesn't appear on the AR, you can copy CORE spells from them after that adventure. One recent module I played had a wizard with a huge number of spells in his spellbook. Step 5) Copy spells from other wizards. If you play with them regularly, coordinate this. I coordinated with one other wizard. Play a wizard in an interactive - mucho spello copyingo. Step 6) A few favours have come up on ARs which let you copy two spells for scribing price. Shedding Scales was one of them. Step 7) Find a metaorg that has a library. Metaorgs are allowed to have libraries :) Ratik's arcane academy has a limited library (all open spells up to 4th level, PHB spells up to 6th level), and Perrenland's wizard's guild has a library that includes all open 8th level spells, provided you meet the prereqs to get into that tier (which I don't). You can get there. Trust me. Sure, I know I'll never use most of the spells. But I've got Pokemon syndrome... So, I'm guessing that after all of this scribing, you're going to take Alacritous Cogitation so you can USE any one of those spells, exactly when it's needed. And I'm willing to bet that you have very few other items beyond scrolls (Scribed with Scribe Scroll) and a Headband.
Potato Weasel 07-31-07, 08:22 AM	aren't you limited to copying a number of spells equal to your caster level?
Timlagor 07-31-07, 08:24 AM	aren't you limited to copying a number of spells equal to your caster level? You are but that soon adds up once you get out of the 'baby levels'.
Maesto 07-31-07, 01:01 PM	So, I'm guessing that after all of this scribing, you're going to take Alacritous Cogitation so you can USE any one of those spells, exactly when it's needed. And I'm willing to bet that you have very few other items beyond scrolls (Scribed with Scribe Scroll) and a Headband. What does Alacritous Cogitation do? I've actually got quite a bit of stuff, most of which has been crafted. +6 headband, orange prism ioun stone, tome of intellect +1, luckstone, rods of lesser maximise, chain, and extend*3, vest of resistance +4, a whole golfbag of pearls of power, and a whole truckload of other items that I can't remember off the top of my head... Plenty of cash to go around.
GreatSiron 07-31-07, 04:01 PM	It allows you to leave a spell slot open to sponteously cast one spell of that spell slot or lower per day.
Hariman 07-31-07, 06:03 PM	It allows you to leave a spell slot open to sponteously cast one spell of that spell slot or lower per day. I believe it has to be your highest level of spells (I could be wrong) but you can spontaneously cast ANY spell your character knows as a full round action. It's from Complete Mage.
bitznarf 07-31-07, 06:24 PM	You can leave as many slots open as you want, same as always. What this feat allows you to do is to spontaneously cast a spell out of an open slot as a full round action once per day. So, no, it doesn't need to be from your highest level.
Ancillary 08-01-07, 11:10 PM	I do not understand why Boccob's is so great. It does take 25% off the cost of scribing spells, which means if full you will have saved 12.5K which is great. But at that point you will have spent 87.5K in gold on spells. That is a lot for any character. And since you don't need to scribe spells from AR spellbooks, and you will have a decent number of spells by the time you can afford it, and you get 2 free ones per level, I don't see it more than barely paying for itself. You have to scribe 500 spell levels just to break even (250 if crafting the book). This goal is reachable easily for higher level characters, but you have to buy the book and get started on it at a level when 12.5 (6.25)K is a real power trade-off. Plus you have to aquire secret page, which you most likely would not have spent money on otherwise. Alacritious Cogitation does make collecting tons of spells better but short of that I do not see it as especially worth it. You simply do not need the amount of spells it takes to make the investment worth it.
CdrcJsn 08-02-07, 02:19 AM	I do not understand why Boccob's is so great. It does take 25% off the cost of scribing spells, which means if full you will have saved 12.5K which is great. Scribing spells into a Boccob's is free. Check the FAQ. http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a
Ancillary 08-02-07, 10:12 PM	That is awesome. My wizard is now getting secret page!
Banor 08-03-07, 10:55 AM	While in a normal LG setting, loosing XP is a good thing as it push you up the gold curve, would a PC for GHR, who is going to play with the same crew, be better with Greyhawk Method over CWI ?
TWG_Prometheus 08-03-07, 11:28 AM	While in a normal LG setting, loosing XP is a good thing as it push you up the gold curve, would a PC for GHR, who is going to play with the same crew, be better with Greyhawk Method over CWI ? I don't think it's an either/or situation. You'd get Craft Wondrous Items no matter what I'd assume.
TetsujinOni 08-03-07, 11:31 AM	While in a normal LG setting, loosing XP is a good thing as it push you up the gold curve, would a PC for GHR, who is going to play with the same crew, be better with Greyhawk Method over CWI ? Neh, CWI lets you discount-buy things to hand to other characters. Armbands of Might, say.
RanielK 08-03-07, 12:39 PM	I do not understand why Boccob's is so great. It does take 25% off the cost of scribing spells, which means if full you will have saved 12.5K which is great. But at that point you will have spent 87.5K in gold on spells. That is a lot for any character. And since you don't need to scribe spells from AR spellbooks, and you will have a decent number of spells by the time you can afford it, and you get 2 free ones per level, I don't see it more than barely paying for itself. You have to scribe 500 spell levels just to break even (250 if crafting the book). This goal is reachable easily for higher level characters, but you have to buy the book and get started on it at a level when 12.5 (6.25)K is a real power trade-off. Plus you have to aquire secret page, which you most likely would not have spent money on otherwise. Alacritious Cogitation does make collecting tons of spells better but short of that I do not see it as especially worth it. You simply do not need the amount of spells it takes to make the investment worth it. As CdrcJsn stated, the cost to scribe in a Boccob's is free. Once you've copied over all of the spells you have so far, and I do mean ALL, you sell off all of your other spellbooks (at 50gp per page with a spell on it)* and you've recouped most if not all of the cost of the BBB right there. Now that you're filling up the BBB for free, all that is left is to plunder every spellbook you find and pick the brain of every wizard who sits at the table with you (to the max of 1 spell per Wizard level of course). *The cost for selling spellbooks is in PHB p179, so no half of half or ((X-Y)Z)/2="what you get" type stuff. It tells you exactly how much you get for selling a spellbook in the rules.
Samwise 08-03-07, 01:28 PM	Now that you're filling up the BBB for free, all that is left is to plunder every spellbook you find and pick the brain of every wizard who sits at the table with you (to the max of 1 spell per Wizard level of course). Heh. That is the big limit I am finding. Every time I start working on copying spells from my old books into my BBB, I find new spells to add to it in spellbooks or from other PCs. I figure it will be another level or so before I finish "emptying" my old spell books, particularly with all those cantrips.
Timlagor 08-03-07, 05:34 PM	Don't forget that you can't sell your spellbooks for more than you paid for them (though you can generally recoup the full cost due to the 'level up spells')
Hariman 08-03-07, 07:36 PM	Neh, CWI lets you discount-buy things to hand to other characters. Armbands of Might, say. Heward's Fortifying Bedroll. Heward's Handy Haversack. ANY of the stat boosters. Vests of resistance. Boccob's Blessed Book. Pearls of Power or Memento Magicka. ESPECIALLY PEARLS OR MEMENTOS, as both will make casters and healers last longer. All of those nifty low cost items you see on ARs. Some of the better items are also available via crafting much sooner. AND I think CWI lets you craft those Ioun Stones too! Well, even though my rogue/wizard can't take Greyhawk Method, I think he'll get Craft Wondrous Item. Especially since he's behind the normal gold curve already.