Greyhawk Ruins Sourcebook - errors [Archive] - Wizards Community

Greyhawk Ruins Sourcebook - errors [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
bitznarf
07-23-07, 10:26 PM The first item that popped out at me was this "...More serious crimes, in general, would be evil acts and as such are prohibited in the Living Greyhawk campaign..." It was my understanding that evil acts aren't actually prohibited, just that having an evil alignment was prohibited.
Demoyn
07-24-07, 09:25 AM I haven't read the entire thing, but the passage you posted leads me to believe that the crimes they refer to would be vile enough to turn your character evil after doing it just once. Seriously... using poison once or twice may not be enough to turn your character evil, but certainly walking into an orphanage and slaying one of the kids would pretty much make you evil.
bitznarf
07-24-07, 09:41 AM Doesn't matter if the act could make you evil, you can still do it. And until ones triad decides you are evil (not the sitting DM), then you are not. And yet these PCs don't get the 'Arrested' AR item. Or anything else. Regardless of the results however, the sourcebook is still wrong, evil acts are not prohibited in the Living Greyhawk campaign.
Samwise
07-24-07, 12:35 PM Demoyn has it.
Crimes like that should be alignment switching. The DM should be reporting you to the Triad, not looking up to see if you go to prison for 10 years or 20 years, or pay a fine of 80% of total wealth or 95% of total wealth.
If the Triad and Circle don't remove you, then you beat the rap somehow.

I've passed it on to Creighton for any needed official action.
bitznarf
07-24-07, 12:43 PM I just don't like the statement itself, the one that says that evil acts are prohibited. Thats it. That ones not covered by the 'arrested' AR are likely to get you pulled from the campaign is besides the point.
Shaudius
07-24-07, 12:48 PM Edited wrong information.
KarmaInferno
07-24-07, 12:50 PM Demoyn has it.
Crimes like that should be alignment switching. The DM should be reporting you to the Triad, not looking up to see if you go to prison for 10 years or 20 years, or pay a fine of 80% of total wealth or 95% of total wealth.
If the Triad and Circle don't remove you, then you beat the rap somehow.

I've passed it on to Creighton for any needed official action.

The issue isn't that it would be alignment switching.

The issue is the alignment switch is and should be the "boot to NPC-land" trigger, not the evil act in and of itself.

-karma
Samwise
07-24-07, 12:57 PM I understand.
Again, I've emailed Creighton about it, and he will decide on any changes.
bitznarf
07-24-07, 12:58 PM The problem is that these things go to the triad of the region the character is from right? Not the region the player is from, and not the region of the mod, at least thats how I understand it.

Who is the triad for the Greyhawk Ruins campaign? The Circle. What have they said? That committing those more serious crimes is prohibited.
No, these things go the the player's triad, not the PCs triad.
I understand.
Again, I've emailed Creighton about it, and he will decide on any changes.
Thanks.
Shaudius
07-24-07, 01:02 PM I stand corrected, but you're apparently not entirely right either according to the LGCS.

"As a GM, if you deem that a PC is about to commit an evil
act, warn them as such. If you feel their actions are
significantly evil, either due to severity or quantity, note the
actions on the PC’s AR, along with any surrounding or
extenuating circumstances. Contact your local Triad and
inform them of the event(s); for areas without a region,
contact the Circle. For out of region players, contact both
Triads."

So its the triad of the DM and the player if its not an in-region player. What it doesn't say is who has the ultimate call when multiple triads are involved.

No, these things go the the player's triad, not the PCs triad.

Thanks.
bitznarf
07-24-07, 01:05 PM Huh, how about that. Its yet to actually come up at a table I've been at.
Morgen
07-26-07, 12:05 AM Well why on earth would you make characters that would do evil things to begin with? It's not like there are these huge moral dilemmas in like 90% of these mods.

I've noticed a few spelling and grammatical mistakes, which is bad if I'm finding them. Unfortunately I can't point them out right now.
Iswald
07-26-07, 11:03 AM David Noonan is listed twice in the credits for PHB II.

I'm more concerned with this passage from page 6:

"Those hailing from realms hostile to or at war with the Domain of Greyhawk are barred from the city -- as are humanoids and monsters."

With the other restrictions in places this seems to limit access to the city to those stray domestic animals that happen to wander through one of the gates.
Lupo
07-26-07, 11:53 AM David Noonan is listed twice in the credits for PHB II.

I'm more concerned with this passage from page 6:

"Those hailing from realms hostile to or at war with the Domain of Greyhawk are barred from the city -- as are humanoids and monsters."

With the other restrictions in places this seems to limit access to the city to those stray domestic animals that happen to wander through one of the gates.

so, no kobold characters in greyhawk . . . .

all the fuzz of the last few days in vain . . . .

ciao

martin m.
bitznarf
07-26-07, 12:00 PM To be accurate, according to the text as written, no PCs at all, except perhaps centaurs. Not sure if they count as humanoids or monsters for that excerpt or not. After all they don't count as either for many things (such as enlarge person).
KShaver
07-26-07, 01:06 PM To be accurate, according to the text as written, no PCs at all, except perhaps centaurs. Not sure if they count as humanoids or monsters for that excerpt or not. After all they don't count as either for many things (such as enlarge person).

Also a few players who have enough levels in specific PrCs to have changed thier type.

Of course this doesn't solve the fact that no legal race for starting GR is allowed into the city. Maybe a kobold with dragonwrought, depends on if dragons are considered monsters.
Grantor
07-26-07, 06:02 PM David Noonan is listed twice in the credits for PHB II.

I'm more concerned with this passage from page 6:

"Those hailing from realms hostile to or at war with the Domain of Greyhawk are barred from the city -- as are humanoids and monsters."

With the other restrictions in places this seems to limit access to the city to those stray domestic animals that happen to wander through one of the gates.

That must mean "Monsterous Humanoids", otherwise there would be no Elves, Dwarves or even Humans in Greyhawk.

But, since Kobolds are Humanoid (Reptilian), they are not really any different than the other Humanoids that are obviously in the city.
bitznarf
07-26-07, 06:23 PM That does keep centaur PCs from entering the city however.
CdrcJsn
07-26-07, 08:36 PM They might be using Humanoids per the old 2nd ED terminology.

Back then, the bipedal world was divided into: humans, demi-humans (dwarves, halflings, elves, gnomes) and humanoids (goblins, orcs, gnolls, etc.)
Fakegoatee
07-26-07, 09:58 PM They might be using Humanoids per the old 2nd ED terminology.

Back then, the bipedal world was divided into: humans, demi-humans (dwarves, halflings, elves, gnomes) and humanoids (goblins, orcs, gnolls, etc.)

That makes sense. THE ADVENTURE BEGINS, a 2nd ed. source, is listed on the first page as a resource.
RedKnightofKet
07-26-07, 10:45 PM That must mean "Monsterous Humanoids", otherwise there would be no Elves, Dwarves or even Humans in Greyhawk.

But, since Kobolds are Humanoid (Reptilian), they are not really any different than the other Humanoids that are obviously in the city.

Shouldn't humans be allowed under those restrictions? humanoid implies, by it's definition, something that is similar to, but not, human.

:D
CSHunt68
07-27-07, 09:20 AM Shouldn't humans be allowed under those restrictions? humanoid implies, by it's definition, something that is similar to, but not, human.

:D

No, humans are a subset of humanoids.
Iswald
07-28-07, 12:50 AM No, humans are a subset of humanoids.

Humanoid is defined in the back of the Monster Manual. Humans, elves, dwarves and so forth all seem to qualify. They cannot pass through the gates into the city. Other methods may be allowed...
Timlagor
07-29-07, 05:13 PM ...perhaps that's why they open the gates every morning so people can pass between them instead ;)

Shaudius: The "ultimate call" comes from the Circle regardless of how many Triads are involved; Triads can't declare a PC evil without Circle approval (I got that from a Circle member iirc -it may not be in the LGCS... but most of the rules governing Triads aren't)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bitznarf 07-23-07, 10:26 PM	The first item that popped out at me was this "...More serious crimes, in general, would be evil acts and as such are prohibited in the Living Greyhawk campaign..." It was my understanding that evil acts aren't actually prohibited, just that having an evil alignment was prohibited.
Demoyn 07-24-07, 09:25 AM	I haven't read the entire thing, but the passage you posted leads me to believe that the crimes they refer to would be vile enough to turn your character evil after doing it just once. Seriously... using poison once or twice may not be enough to turn your character evil, but certainly walking into an orphanage and slaying one of the kids would pretty much make you evil.
bitznarf 07-24-07, 09:41 AM	Doesn't matter if the act could make you evil, you can still do it. And until ones triad decides you are evil (not the sitting DM), then you are not. And yet these PCs don't get the 'Arrested' AR item. Or anything else. Regardless of the results however, the sourcebook is still wrong, evil acts are not prohibited in the Living Greyhawk campaign.
Samwise 07-24-07, 12:35 PM	Demoyn has it. Crimes like that should be alignment switching. The DM should be reporting you to the Triad, not looking up to see if you go to prison for 10 years or 20 years, or pay a fine of 80% of total wealth or 95% of total wealth. If the Triad and Circle don't remove you, then you beat the rap somehow. I've passed it on to Creighton for any needed official action.
bitznarf 07-24-07, 12:43 PM	I just don't like the statement itself, the one that says that evil acts are prohibited. Thats it. That ones not covered by the 'arrested' AR are likely to get you pulled from the campaign is besides the point.
Shaudius 07-24-07, 12:48 PM	Edited wrong information.
KarmaInferno 07-24-07, 12:50 PM	Demoyn has it. Crimes like that should be alignment switching. The DM should be reporting you to the Triad, not looking up to see if you go to prison for 10 years or 20 years, or pay a fine of 80% of total wealth or 95% of total wealth. If the Triad and Circle don't remove you, then you beat the rap somehow. I've passed it on to Creighton for any needed official action. The issue isn't that it would be alignment switching. The issue is the alignment switch is and should be the "boot to NPC-land" trigger, not the evil act in and of itself. -karma
Samwise 07-24-07, 12:57 PM	I understand. Again, I've emailed Creighton about it, and he will decide on any changes.
bitznarf 07-24-07, 12:58 PM	The problem is that these things go to the triad of the region the character is from right? Not the region the player is from, and not the region of the mod, at least thats how I understand it. Who is the triad for the Greyhawk Ruins campaign? The Circle. What have they said? That committing those more serious crimes is prohibited. No, these things go the the player's triad, not the PCs triad. I understand. Again, I've emailed Creighton about it, and he will decide on any changes. Thanks.
Shaudius 07-24-07, 01:02 PM	I stand corrected, but you're apparently not entirely right either according to the LGCS. "As a GM, if you deem that a PC is about to commit an evil act, warn them as such. If you feel their actions are significantly evil, either due to severity or quantity, note the actions on the PC’s AR, along with any surrounding or extenuating circumstances. Contact your local Triad and inform them of the event(s); for areas without a region, contact the Circle. For out of region players, contact both Triads." So its the triad of the DM and the player if its not an in-region player. What it doesn't say is who has the ultimate call when multiple triads are involved. No, these things go the the player's triad, not the PCs triad. Thanks.
bitznarf 07-24-07, 01:05 PM	Huh, how about that. Its yet to actually come up at a table I've been at.
Morgen 07-26-07, 12:05 AM	Well why on earth would you make characters that would do evil things to begin with? It's not like there are these huge moral dilemmas in like 90% of these mods. I've noticed a few spelling and grammatical mistakes, which is bad if I'm finding them. Unfortunately I can't point them out right now.
Iswald 07-26-07, 11:03 AM	David Noonan is listed twice in the credits for PHB II. I'm more concerned with this passage from page 6: "Those hailing from realms hostile to or at war with the Domain of Greyhawk are barred from the city -- as are humanoids and monsters." With the other restrictions in places this seems to limit access to the city to those stray domestic animals that happen to wander through one of the gates.
Lupo 07-26-07, 11:53 AM	David Noonan is listed twice in the credits for PHB II. I'm more concerned with this passage from page 6: "Those hailing from realms hostile to or at war with the Domain of Greyhawk are barred from the city -- as are humanoids and monsters." With the other restrictions in places this seems to limit access to the city to those stray domestic animals that happen to wander through one of the gates. so, no kobold characters in greyhawk . . . . all the fuzz of the last few days in vain . . . . ciao martin m.
bitznarf 07-26-07, 12:00 PM	To be accurate, according to the text as written, no PCs at all, except perhaps centaurs. Not sure if they count as humanoids or monsters for that excerpt or not. After all they don't count as either for many things (such as enlarge person).
KShaver 07-26-07, 01:06 PM	To be accurate, according to the text as written, no PCs at all, except perhaps centaurs. Not sure if they count as humanoids or monsters for that excerpt or not. After all they don't count as either for many things (such as enlarge person). Also a few players who have enough levels in specific PrCs to have changed thier type. Of course this doesn't solve the fact that no legal race for starting GR is allowed into the city. Maybe a kobold with dragonwrought, depends on if dragons are considered monsters.
Grantor 07-26-07, 06:02 PM	David Noonan is listed twice in the credits for PHB II. I'm more concerned with this passage from page 6: "Those hailing from realms hostile to or at war with the Domain of Greyhawk are barred from the city -- as are humanoids and monsters." With the other restrictions in places this seems to limit access to the city to those stray domestic animals that happen to wander through one of the gates. That must mean "Monsterous Humanoids", otherwise there would be no Elves, Dwarves or even Humans in Greyhawk. But, since Kobolds are Humanoid (Reptilian), they are not really any different than the other Humanoids that are obviously in the city.
bitznarf 07-26-07, 06:23 PM	That does keep centaur PCs from entering the city however.
CdrcJsn 07-26-07, 08:36 PM	They might be using Humanoids per the old 2nd ED terminology. Back then, the bipedal world was divided into: humans, demi-humans (dwarves, halflings, elves, gnomes) and humanoids (goblins, orcs, gnolls, etc.)
Fakegoatee 07-26-07, 09:58 PM	They might be using Humanoids per the old 2nd ED terminology. Back then, the bipedal world was divided into: humans, demi-humans (dwarves, halflings, elves, gnomes) and humanoids (goblins, orcs, gnolls, etc.) That makes sense. THE ADVENTURE BEGINS, a 2nd ed. source, is listed on the first page as a resource.
RedKnightofKet 07-26-07, 10:45 PM	That must mean "Monsterous Humanoids", otherwise there would be no Elves, Dwarves or even Humans in Greyhawk. But, since Kobolds are Humanoid (Reptilian), they are not really any different than the other Humanoids that are obviously in the city. Shouldn't humans be allowed under those restrictions? humanoid implies, by it's definition, something that is similar to, but not, human. :D
CSHunt68 07-27-07, 09:20 AM	Shouldn't humans be allowed under those restrictions? humanoid implies, by it's definition, something that is similar to, but not, human. :D No, humans are a subset of humanoids.
Iswald 07-28-07, 12:50 AM	No, humans are a subset of humanoids. Humanoid is defined in the back of the Monster Manual. Humans, elves, dwarves and so forth all seem to qualify. They cannot pass through the gates into the city. Other methods may be allowed...
Timlagor 07-29-07, 05:13 PM	...perhaps that's why they open the gates every morning so people can pass between them instead ;) Shaudius: The "ultimate call" comes from the Circle regardless of how many Triads are involved; Triads can't declare a PC evil without Circle approval (I got that from a Circle member iirc -it may not be in the LGCS... but most of the rules governing Triads aren't)