Greyhawk Ruins- Fudge or no fudge? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Greyhawk Ruins- Fudge or no fudge? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
_metz_
08-15-07, 12:00 AM I bumped into a Kobold player a few days ago who had the following:

A kobold from Greyhawk City who was utilizing the alternate class features. He did not intend to use this character for greyhawk ruins, and expected it to revert to a triad controlled region as soon as it hit level 2. (as stated in the document) Thus i got access to the alternate class features.

My concern was the following:

1. Alternate class features have to be retrained into and cannot be taken at first level. (he already had the alternate stuff at level 1) Greyhawk Ruins bypasses this for characters NOT taking part in the arc...

2. This is a bit of an exploit, as in theory any class features can be taken by taking greyhawk as your region, then switching at level 2 (when you can retrain at the same time and take advantage of the class features)

I am just highlighting this issue if it has not already been resolved, so it can be in the Greyhawk Ruins dispel confusion, as by the wording, it seems like a perfectly legitimate fudge to me, but doesn't seem necessarily in the spirit of the arc...

(perhaps access should be tied to the first AR, rather than region...)

Just some thoughts.
Southernskies
08-15-07, 12:22 AM A Kobold cannot have Greyhawk City as its home region. See Dispel Confusion and the card.
Banor
08-15-07, 12:32 AM A Kobold cannot have Greyhawk City as its home region. See Dispel Confusion and the card.

Kobold card got no restriction to home region as the snow elf one has. They can play with Greyhawk in their home region.
boolean
08-15-07, 01:09 AM 1. Alternate class features have to be retrained into and cannot be taken at first level. (he already had the alternate stuff at level 1)

Are you sure about this? To my knowledge, the only reason most characters cannot take alternate class features etc. is due to access. You can't join a meta-org until after playing an adventure, so you couldn't use access from a meta-org to take an alternate feature at 1st level.

However, a Greyhawk region character, or a character created with the Kobold card, has access to those features during character creation. As far as I'm aware, there is nothing stopping these characters using these features at 1st level.
_metz_
08-15-07, 03:09 AM Well I suppose the alternate class stuff would be fine then, but other than that, isn't this just a fudge for first level alternate class features then?
Timlagor
08-15-07, 06:41 AM It is a fudge and I'm surprised it wasn't covered in the last DC ..maybe the next one. You might try taking it up with the relevant Triad if you are really bothered.
_metz_
08-15-07, 07:25 AM Happy to let it be a fudge, but if its not what was intended, it should probably be fixed.
KShaver
08-15-07, 10:59 AM It is a fudge and I'm surprised it wasn't covered in the last DC ..maybe the next one. You might try taking it up with the relevant Triad if you are really bothered.

I thought Britt had specifically mentioned that a character doing this would have to lose any GR options they used. Of course there is nothing in the DC, so until it is printed it isn't illegal yet, just immoral. As mentioned bring it up with the Triad, they might have an opinion on the matter.
TetsujinOni
08-15-07, 11:26 AM I thought Britt had specifically mentioned that a character doing this would have to lose any GR options they used. Of course there is nothing in the DC, so until it is printed it isn't illegal yet, just immoral. As mentioned bring it up with the Triad, they might have an opinion on the matter.

Does anyone have a working link to or the text of the Greyhawk Ruins Dispel Confusion, SUPPOSEDLY at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/lggr/20070814a, but not?
Mithreinmaethor
08-15-07, 05:20 PM Britt said that the Greyhawk Ruins DC was sent around the same time as the LG DC was sent. It has not been posted yet.
Puggle Halfwine
08-16-07, 02:45 AM Is that DC retroactive?

Disclaimer: I'm the player of said kobold character.
_metz_
08-16-07, 03:24 AM Is that DC retroactive?

Disclaimer: I'm the player of said kobold character.

AFAIK all rules items are retroactive in LG, unless there is a clause stipulating otherwise.

Puggle, I needed to know if it was legal in a situation where I may be DMing for someone who has done it. I wasn't singling you out or anything, it just jumped out as a fudge to me, and I needed to know where I as a DM stood.

(Not everyone uses fudges for more funny characters, but often to break the intent of the rules or the plot arc)
Mithreinmaethor
08-16-07, 06:06 AM I expected more from you Puggle. Shame shame
Puggle Halfwine
08-16-07, 08:24 AM :'(

Now I am sad.

... honestly, however, I'm of the personal opinion that all these brilliant you-beaut alternate class features should be available for character creation at 1st level. I expect that the current moratorium on them (which can only be circumvented in a few ways- Ruins of Castle Greyhawk and Retraining being the only two I know) will go the way of the Third Level Rule.

Honestly, I don't think it's immoral or illegal. I was surprised that the Greyhawk Ruins sourcebook had addressed this so clearly- if it didn't, I wouldn't have done it. But I'm glad it did.
Iswald
08-16-07, 09:51 AM I bumped into a Kobold player a few days ago who had the following:

A kobold from Greyhawk City who was utilizing the alternate class features. He did not intend to use this character for greyhawk ruins, and expected it to revert to a triad controlled region as soon as it hit level 2. (as stated in the document) Thus i got access to the alternate class features.

My concern was the following:

1. Alternate class features have to be retrained into and cannot be taken at first level. (he already had the alternate stuff at level 1) Greyhawk Ruins bypasses this for characters NOT taking part in the arc...

2. This is a bit of an exploit, as in theory any class features can be taken by taking greyhawk as your region, then switching at level 2 (when you can retrain at the same time and take advantage of the class features)

My understanding is that the PC would have access to the alternate class features at level one. Once they reached level 2 and reverted back to a triad controlled region, they would lose access. It would not affect levels taken already. However, no further access would be provided. For instance, if a barbarian started with rage at level one and didn't follow the Greyhawk Ruins arc, they would not be able to retrain rage to berserker strength at level 3 since they no longer have access. A fighter that leaves the arc before level 6 would not be able to take elusive target because they'd have lost access to it.
Morgen
08-16-07, 11:33 PM I'd be more interested as to why you don't just play the kobold in the Greyhawk Ruins mod myself, but meh.
Puggle Halfwine
08-17-07, 09:51 PM I'd be more interested as to why you don't just play the kobold in the Greyhawk Ruins mod myself, but meh.

I would, but the group I'm playing with needs a divine caster and it's my turn.
Hariman
08-18-07, 06:28 PM I would, but the group I'm playing with needs a divine caster and it's my turn.

Cleric5/Singer of Concordance10. With Craft Wondrous Item at level 3 to craft +2 STR gloves and the +2 Con booster.

A decent CON, Decent Wis, and a bunch of points in STR will get you enough to at least wear mithral chain or a mithral shirt. (Items weigh 1/2 but carrying capacity is three quarters.)

Although, you do end up losing out on turning or skill points. Or you have to stay in light armor and wear a shield all the time.

Also, about changing home regions:

I'm pretty sure Britt stated that you lose Greyhawk Ruins access if you change your home region. So I think you'd have to retrain the alternate class features.
boolean
08-29-07, 03:55 AM From the Greyhawk Ruins DC:
Q: What happens if I forget to play a Greyhawk Ruins adventure before I reach 2nd level?

A: Characters that forget to play a Greyhawk Ruins adventure before reaching 2nd level automatically lose the Domain of Greyhawk as their home region, reverting to the region of residency of the controlling player. (If the player does not live within a triad-controlled region he may pick a region to belong to). Additionally, once the character’s region changes it loses access to all the expanded character generation options outlined in the Greyhawk Ruins Sourcebook. Thus, the controlling player must make the minimum changes necessary to make the character conform to the character generation rules in the latest version of the Living Greyhawk Campaign Sourcebook. In practice, this probably means that the character loses any alternate class features or feats from Dragon Magazine 315 and 319, Cityscape, and Dungeonscape and must swap them out for legal choices.
So, you get to use the alternate feature for 1st level, but you lose it afterwards.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
_metz_ 08-15-07, 12:00 AM	I bumped into a Kobold player a few days ago who had the following: A kobold from Greyhawk City who was utilizing the alternate class features. He did not intend to use this character for greyhawk ruins, and expected it to revert to a triad controlled region as soon as it hit level 2. (as stated in the document) Thus i got access to the alternate class features. My concern was the following: 1. Alternate class features have to be retrained into and cannot be taken at first level. (he already had the alternate stuff at level 1) Greyhawk Ruins bypasses this for characters NOT taking part in the arc... 2. This is a bit of an exploit, as in theory any class features can be taken by taking greyhawk as your region, then switching at level 2 (when you can retrain at the same time and take advantage of the class features) I am just highlighting this issue if it has not already been resolved, so it can be in the Greyhawk Ruins dispel confusion, as by the wording, it seems like a perfectly legitimate fudge to me, but doesn't seem necessarily in the spirit of the arc... (perhaps access should be tied to the first AR, rather than region...) Just some thoughts.
Southernskies 08-15-07, 12:22 AM	A Kobold cannot have Greyhawk City as its home region. See Dispel Confusion and the card.
Banor 08-15-07, 12:32 AM	A Kobold cannot have Greyhawk City as its home region. See Dispel Confusion and the card. Kobold card got no restriction to home region as the snow elf one has. They can play with Greyhawk in their home region.
boolean 08-15-07, 01:09 AM	1. Alternate class features have to be retrained into and cannot be taken at first level. (he already had the alternate stuff at level 1) Are you sure about this? To my knowledge, the only reason most characters cannot take alternate class features etc. is due to access. You can't join a meta-org until after playing an adventure, so you couldn't use access from a meta-org to take an alternate feature at 1st level. However, a Greyhawk region character, or a character created with the Kobold card, has access to those features during character creation. As far as I'm aware, there is nothing stopping these characters using these features at 1st level.
_metz_ 08-15-07, 03:09 AM	Well I suppose the alternate class stuff would be fine then, but other than that, isn't this just a fudge for first level alternate class features then?
Timlagor 08-15-07, 06:41 AM	It is a fudge and I'm surprised it wasn't covered in the last DC ..maybe the next one. You might try taking it up with the relevant Triad if you are really bothered.
_metz_ 08-15-07, 07:25 AM	Happy to let it be a fudge, but if its not what was intended, it should probably be fixed.
KShaver 08-15-07, 10:59 AM	It is a fudge and I'm surprised it wasn't covered in the last DC ..maybe the next one. You might try taking it up with the relevant Triad if you are really bothered. I thought Britt had specifically mentioned that a character doing this would have to lose any GR options they used. Of course there is nothing in the DC, so until it is printed it isn't illegal yet, just immoral. As mentioned bring it up with the Triad, they might have an opinion on the matter.
TetsujinOni 08-15-07, 11:26 AM	I thought Britt had specifically mentioned that a character doing this would have to lose any GR options they used. Of course there is nothing in the DC, so until it is printed it isn't illegal yet, just immoral. As mentioned bring it up with the Triad, they might have an opinion on the matter. Does anyone have a working link to or the text of the Greyhawk Ruins Dispel Confusion, SUPPOSEDLY at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/lggr/20070814a, but not?
Mithreinmaethor 08-15-07, 05:20 PM	Britt said that the Greyhawk Ruins DC was sent around the same time as the LG DC was sent. It has not been posted yet.
Puggle Halfwine 08-16-07, 02:45 AM	Is that DC retroactive? Disclaimer: I'm the player of said kobold character.
_metz_ 08-16-07, 03:24 AM	Is that DC retroactive? Disclaimer: I'm the player of said kobold character. AFAIK all rules items are retroactive in LG, unless there is a clause stipulating otherwise. Puggle, I needed to know if it was legal in a situation where I may be DMing for someone who has done it. I wasn't singling you out or anything, it just jumped out as a fudge to me, and I needed to know where I as a DM stood. (Not everyone uses fudges for more funny characters, but often to break the intent of the rules or the plot arc)
Mithreinmaethor 08-16-07, 06:06 AM	I expected more from you Puggle. Shame shame
Puggle Halfwine 08-16-07, 08:24 AM	:'( Now I am sad. ... honestly, however, I'm of the personal opinion that all these brilliant you-beaut alternate class features should be available for character creation at 1st level. I expect that the current moratorium on them (which can only be circumvented in a few ways- Ruins of Castle Greyhawk and Retraining being the only two I know) will go the way of the Third Level Rule. Honestly, I don't think it's immoral or illegal. I was surprised that the Greyhawk Ruins sourcebook had addressed this so clearly- if it didn't, I wouldn't have done it. But I'm glad it did.
Iswald 08-16-07, 09:51 AM	I bumped into a Kobold player a few days ago who had the following: A kobold from Greyhawk City who was utilizing the alternate class features. He did not intend to use this character for greyhawk ruins, and expected it to revert to a triad controlled region as soon as it hit level 2. (as stated in the document) Thus i got access to the alternate class features. My concern was the following: 1. Alternate class features have to be retrained into and cannot be taken at first level. (he already had the alternate stuff at level 1) Greyhawk Ruins bypasses this for characters NOT taking part in the arc... 2. This is a bit of an exploit, as in theory any class features can be taken by taking greyhawk as your region, then switching at level 2 (when you can retrain at the same time and take advantage of the class features) My understanding is that the PC would have access to the alternate class features at level one. Once they reached level 2 and reverted back to a triad controlled region, they would lose access. It would not affect levels taken already. However, no further access would be provided. For instance, if a barbarian started with rage at level one and didn't follow the Greyhawk Ruins arc, they would not be able to retrain rage to berserker strength at level 3 since they no longer have access. A fighter that leaves the arc before level 6 would not be able to take elusive target because they'd have lost access to it.
Morgen 08-16-07, 11:33 PM	I'd be more interested as to why you don't just play the kobold in the Greyhawk Ruins mod myself, but meh.
Puggle Halfwine 08-17-07, 09:51 PM	I'd be more interested as to why you don't just play the kobold in the Greyhawk Ruins mod myself, but meh. I would, but the group I'm playing with needs a divine caster and it's my turn.
Hariman 08-18-07, 06:28 PM	I would, but the group I'm playing with needs a divine caster and it's my turn. Cleric5/Singer of Concordance10. With Craft Wondrous Item at level 3 to craft +2 STR gloves and the +2 Con booster. A decent CON, Decent Wis, and a bunch of points in STR will get you enough to at least wear mithral chain or a mithral shirt. (Items weigh 1/2 but carrying capacity is three quarters.) Although, you do end up losing out on turning or skill points. Or you have to stay in light armor and wear a shield all the time. Also, about changing home regions: I'm pretty sure Britt stated that you lose Greyhawk Ruins access if you change your home region. So I think you'd have to retrain the alternate class features.
boolean 08-29-07, 03:55 AM	From the Greyhawk Ruins DC: Q: What happens if I forget to play a Greyhawk Ruins adventure before I reach 2nd level? A: Characters that forget to play a Greyhawk Ruins adventure before reaching 2nd level automatically lose the Domain of Greyhawk as their home region, reverting to the region of residency of the controlling player. (If the player does not live within a triad-controlled region he may pick a region to belong to). Additionally, once the character’s region changes it loses access to all the expanded character generation options outlined in the Greyhawk Ruins Sourcebook. Thus, the controlling player must make the minimum changes necessary to make the character conform to the character generation rules in the latest version of the Living Greyhawk Campaign Sourcebook. In practice, this probably means that the character loses any alternate class features or feats from Dragon Magazine 315 and 319, Cityscape, and Dungeonscape and must swap them out for legal choices. So, you get to use the alternate feature for 1st level, but you lose it afterwards.