Greyhawk Ruins: Multiple Affiliations [Archive] - Wizards Community

Greyhawk Ruins: Multiple Affiliations [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
RtrnofdMax
11-06-07, 12:50 PM So you can be a member of the Nightwatch and the Church of St. Cuthbert or the Church of Norebo and the Thieves guild, but why are those the only dual-affiliations that aren't penalized?

I would imagine you could be a member of the Church of Boccob and the Guild of Wizardry or Cartographers guild and the Church of Fharlanghn or the Church of Zilchus and the Merchant's guild. Any idea why only those two were chosen?
magebeast
11-06-07, 01:06 PM So you can be a member of the Nightwatch and the Church of St. Cuthbert or the Church of Norebo and the Thieves guild, but why are those the only dual-affiliations that aren't penalized?

I would imagine you could be a member of the Church of Boccob and the Guild of Wizardry or Cartographers guild and the Church of Fharlanghn or the Church of Zilchus and the Merchant's guild. Any idea why only those two were chosen?

Probably they are what occured to the writers. Just happenstance.
Samwise
11-07-07, 04:06 AM Probably they are what occured to the writers. Just happenstance.

No, it was not happenstance at all.
It is because those are the only two with an established link in canon of such a high degree as to suggest they be interpreted as meriting their affiliations being linked that way.

While a worshiper of Boccob is likely to be a member of the Guild of Wizardy and vice versa, the Guild does not actively screen its members, and give a strong preference to those who worship Boccob. The Guild of Nightwatchmen does so with followers of Cuthbert, who is recognized as the patron deity of the guild.
Similarly, while the Thieves' Guild does not have a mandatory religious requirement, Norebo is considered the patron of Greyhawk thieves. And while there is a shrine of Kurell in the old guild hall, it was put there by a former Master Thief of the Guild who was "removed" for plotting against the Guildmaster.

So the choice was very deliberate, and based on existing information about the city.
magebeast
11-07-07, 09:02 AM I didn't intend to imply anything negative about the writers, just that they are only human!
cetiken
11-07-07, 01:54 PM Personally I'm curious why there is a -10 penalty at all. It seems to be that a character could have many affiliations they're associated with and that groups who penalize you for being friens with others would be the exception rather than the rule. To cite an example a ranger might be a member of the mercenaries guild, the cartographers guild, and the church of farlanghan. Now its theroetcly possible that an adventure might have some of those organizations in conflict but tough choices are fun.
Samwise
11-07-07, 02:37 PM I didn't intend to imply anything negative about the writers, just that they are only human!

How dare you suggest I am only human?!?!?!?!
:rant:

:P

I did not think you were. I was just offering the answer:
Those links exist because they are part of the canon background on the City of Greyhawk. They were deliberately selected based on that.

Now which groups to make into affiliations, that was just what occurred to me.
Although a few were pretty obvious (Guild of Wizardry and Thieves' Guild), the others, without any actual affiliations or anything similar existing in canon were just the ones I thought, and the rest of the development group agreed, had the most potential to be relevant to adventurers. (I really could not see anyone being eager to get far in the Embalmers' and Gravediggers' Union, or what benefits it could offer. Free burials after each adventure? :yuck: )
Samwise
11-07-07, 02:43 PM Personally I'm curious why there is a -10 penalty at all.

That I can half answer:
Because that is how the affiliations are written in the PHB II.
Those rules have the penalty as standard, so the rule was kept.

You would have to ask the authors of the PHB II why that penalty exists. I can see many equally valid reasons both for and against it, but overall agree with it for balance reasons.
Overall, if you look closely at the groups, if you get 1/2 point per level, you have a "virtual" score with pretty much every group. The penalty only kicks in once you actually choose a side. The other groups do not have to actually hate you, they just close the door on providing you benefits. You can still ally across affiliation lines, and there are examples of such in the rules. An individual adventurer just can not access all benefits from multiple groups that easily.
cetiken
11-08-07, 12:56 PM That I can half answer:
Because that is how the affiliations are written in the PHB II.
Those rules have the penalty as standard, so the rule was kept.

This is what I get for not actually going out and reading all the books I own. Well played sir, well played.
Vamroc
11-08-07, 02:43 PM I play Heroclix and D&D I act one way with the Heroclix group and another with the RPGA group. Many guilds are secret and don't allow members to disclose who they are. The only problem is when the mod puts you at odds with one of the guilds you belong too. Many groups have ideologies that conflict this is why penalties are needed. Do the Knight's of the Watch really want members of the Greyhawk Assassin Guild or Thieves Guild subverting them to commit robbery and murder. The answer is no so don't tell any of them and as long as you can keep it a secret sit back and enjoy the benefits. :devil:
Samwise
11-09-07, 01:16 AM This is what I get for not actually going out and reading all the books I own. Well played sir, well played.

Heh.
I had to look it up too. :P
But that is what y'all pay me the big bucks for, to keep track of these endless obscure rules and references.
Wait a minute . . .
;)
cetiken
11-09-07, 10:58 AM Heh.
I had to look it up too. :P
But that is what y'all pay me the big bucks for, to keep track of these endless obscure rules and references.
Wait a minute . . .
;)

Honestly I'd have been okay if the rules hosing archers in the City of Greyhawk had stayed lost. :D
Samwise
11-09-07, 01:42 PM Honestly I'd have been okay if the rules hosing archers in the City of Greyhawk had stayed lost. :D

Well, there is the thing.
At a certain point, there has to be canon consistency. Otherwise you wind up with authors contradicting each other to remove or affirm particular elements, and add their own pet preferences. That leads to campaign chaos, and leaves the players unable to learn what to expect from one adventure to the next.
There are a LOT of things in Greyhawk canon I find silly, absurd, or just plain stupid. If at some point WotC would like me to revise the setting and let me change those things, I would be more than happy to do so. The same goes for certain game rules. Until then, what I was asked to as a core reviewer was to check for canon consistency (and rules consistency), and I agreed to do so. Hopefully I am doing reasonably well.

Even if it means archers and spiked chain fighters hate me forever. ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RtrnofdMax 11-06-07, 12:50 PM	So you can be a member of the Nightwatch and the Church of St. Cuthbert or the Church of Norebo and the Thieves guild, but why are those the only dual-affiliations that aren't penalized? I would imagine you could be a member of the Church of Boccob and the Guild of Wizardry or Cartographers guild and the Church of Fharlanghn or the Church of Zilchus and the Merchant's guild. Any idea why only those two were chosen?
magebeast 11-06-07, 01:06 PM	So you can be a member of the Nightwatch and the Church of St. Cuthbert or the Church of Norebo and the Thieves guild, but why are those the only dual-affiliations that aren't penalized? I would imagine you could be a member of the Church of Boccob and the Guild of Wizardry or Cartographers guild and the Church of Fharlanghn or the Church of Zilchus and the Merchant's guild. Any idea why only those two were chosen? Probably they are what occured to the writers. Just happenstance.
Samwise 11-07-07, 04:06 AM	Probably they are what occured to the writers. Just happenstance. No, it was not happenstance at all. It is because those are the only two with an established link in canon of such a high degree as to suggest they be interpreted as meriting their affiliations being linked that way. While a worshiper of Boccob is likely to be a member of the Guild of Wizardy and vice versa, the Guild does not actively screen its members, and give a strong preference to those who worship Boccob. The Guild of Nightwatchmen does so with followers of Cuthbert, who is recognized as the patron deity of the guild. Similarly, while the Thieves' Guild does not have a mandatory religious requirement, Norebo is considered the patron of Greyhawk thieves. And while there is a shrine of Kurell in the old guild hall, it was put there by a former Master Thief of the Guild who was "removed" for plotting against the Guildmaster. So the choice was very deliberate, and based on existing information about the city.
magebeast 11-07-07, 09:02 AM	I didn't intend to imply anything negative about the writers, just that they are only human!
cetiken 11-07-07, 01:54 PM	Personally I'm curious why there is a -10 penalty at all. It seems to be that a character could have many affiliations they're associated with and that groups who penalize you for being friens with others would be the exception rather than the rule. To cite an example a ranger might be a member of the mercenaries guild, the cartographers guild, and the church of farlanghan. Now its theroetcly possible that an adventure might have some of those organizations in conflict but tough choices are fun.
Samwise 11-07-07, 02:37 PM	I didn't intend to imply anything negative about the writers, just that they are only human! How dare you suggest I am only human?!?!?!?! :rant: :P I did not think you were. I was just offering the answer: Those links exist because they are part of the canon background on the City of Greyhawk. They were deliberately selected based on that. Now which groups to make into affiliations, that was just what occurred to me. Although a few were pretty obvious (Guild of Wizardry and Thieves' Guild), the others, without any actual affiliations or anything similar existing in canon were just the ones I thought, and the rest of the development group agreed, had the most potential to be relevant to adventurers. (I really could not see anyone being eager to get far in the Embalmers' and Gravediggers' Union, or what benefits it could offer. Free burials after each adventure? :yuck: )
Samwise 11-07-07, 02:43 PM	Personally I'm curious why there is a -10 penalty at all. That I can half answer: Because that is how the affiliations are written in the PHB II. Those rules have the penalty as standard, so the rule was kept. You would have to ask the authors of the PHB II why that penalty exists. I can see many equally valid reasons both for and against it, but overall agree with it for balance reasons. Overall, if you look closely at the groups, if you get 1/2 point per level, you have a "virtual" score with pretty much every group. The penalty only kicks in once you actually choose a side. The other groups do not have to actually hate you, they just close the door on providing you benefits. You can still ally across affiliation lines, and there are examples of such in the rules. An individual adventurer just can not access all benefits from multiple groups that easily.
cetiken 11-08-07, 12:56 PM	That I can half answer: Because that is how the affiliations are written in the PHB II. Those rules have the penalty as standard, so the rule was kept. This is what I get for not actually going out and reading all the books I own. Well played sir, well played.
Vamroc 11-08-07, 02:43 PM	I play Heroclix and D&D I act one way with the Heroclix group and another with the RPGA group. Many guilds are secret and don't allow members to disclose who they are. The only problem is when the mod puts you at odds with one of the guilds you belong too. Many groups have ideologies that conflict this is why penalties are needed. Do the Knight's of the Watch really want members of the Greyhawk Assassin Guild or Thieves Guild subverting them to commit robbery and murder. The answer is no so don't tell any of them and as long as you can keep it a secret sit back and enjoy the benefits. :devil:
Samwise 11-09-07, 01:16 AM	This is what I get for not actually going out and reading all the books I own. Well played sir, well played. Heh. I had to look it up too. :P But that is what y'all pay me the big bucks for, to keep track of these endless obscure rules and references. Wait a minute . . . ;)
cetiken 11-09-07, 10:58 AM	Heh. I had to look it up too. :P But that is what y'all pay me the big bucks for, to keep track of these endless obscure rules and references. Wait a minute . . . ;) Honestly I'd have been okay if the rules hosing archers in the City of Greyhawk had stayed lost. :D
Samwise 11-09-07, 01:42 PM	Honestly I'd have been okay if the rules hosing archers in the City of Greyhawk had stayed lost. :D Well, there is the thing. At a certain point, there has to be canon consistency. Otherwise you wind up with authors contradicting each other to remove or affirm particular elements, and add their own pet preferences. That leads to campaign chaos, and leaves the players unable to learn what to expect from one adventure to the next. There are a LOT of things in Greyhawk canon I find silly, absurd, or just plain stupid. If at some point WotC would like me to revise the setting and let me change those things, I would be more than happy to do so. The same goes for certain game rules. Until then, what I was asked to as a core reviewer was to check for canon consistency (and rules consistency), and I agreed to do so. Hopefully I am doing reasonably well. Even if it means archers and spiked chain fighters hate me forever. ;)