Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Puggle Halfwine 03-05-06, 07:58 PM	Hey guys, I was thinking of the best way to make a good healing cleric. Although the stereotypical healing cleric has the healing domain, as far as I can tell it seems to be highly over-rated (only +1 hp per healing spell, even at high levels). But far as I can see, a lightly armoured elven priest of Ehlenestra with the Celerity domain would be a better choice. With light armour, high dexterity and a medium shield he'd have a base movement of 40ft and a first-level AC of 19... which would allow him to get in and out of combat easier. I've given this a high priority as I've noticed that, huge-crits aside, characters really only die when the cleric clunks along in fullplate and can't get to them when they're hurt. As no deity offers both the Celerity and Healing domains, I decided to stick with Sun instead and go for the Radient Servant of Ehlenestra prestige class. For feats, I'd go with firstly Extra Turning, then Augment Healing, then Sudden Empower (for those give-me-hit-points-now moments). What do you guys think?
zigspatty 03-05-06, 10:39 PM	Although the stereotypical healing cleric has the healing domain, as far as I can tell it seems to be highly over-rated (only +1 hp per healing spell, even at high levels). The healing domain special ability isn't all that powerful especially since casters are still limited on how much they can add for caster level on many of those spells. But it can be used multiple times every adventure, so it's pretty hard to complain about it. That +1 can be mighty useful on occasion - especially at lower levels. But the majority of clerics who consider healer as one of their major roles do not have the healing domain. ...a lightly armoured elven priest of Ehlenestra with the Celerity domain would be a better choice. With light armour, high dexterity and a medium shield he'd have a base movement of 40ft and a first-level AC of 19... which would allow him to get in and out of combat easier. While an AC of 19 is mighty good at first level, it'll require far more gold to keep pace with the ACs achieved by the clunky clerics in platemail. Your lower con will give you fewer hp to handle the damage that seems to get dished out anytime you wade into battle to do some healing (and a slightly decreased chance of success with the concentration check that could be required.) Fortunately, with lighter armor, you won't have as great a need for a high strengths so your wisdom can still be high, and the higher movement could give you more maneuvering room to avoid concentration checks. So it's reasonable, if not ideal. ...I decided to stick with Sun instead and go for the Radient Servant of Ehlenestra prestige class. For feats, I'd go with firstly Extra Turning, then Augment Healing, then Sudden Empower Radiant Servant is a mighty cool prestige class that many folk are willing to take it even without being able to use those cool heal domain abilities. But it seems a trifle foolish to claim you're building a "healing cleric" and then go into a prestige class with special abilities to empower/maximize those heal domain spells and not use them. Far more useful than Sudden Empowering a heal spell once a day, imo. As a warning, Radiant Servants only get a d6 hp, so you'll be compounding your lower elven con hp by taking it. By mid levels, your lightly armored cleric will be getting hit fairly often if he wades into the fray. I wouldn't plan on taking any limited feat before I had access - access has a curious habit of not turning up when you need it (or turning up for the wrong character.) With a higher dex, and your lower HP, you might consider the value of the Reach Spell feat over Sudden Empower. Later, you could Divine metamagic it, so you could heal up your tanks even without wading into combat, or raising the spell level. (Or you could take empower or maximize and Divine Metamagic.) If you really want to be able to Empower those healing spells, follow Pelor and take the heal domain - 30' foot movement is usually sufficient for what clerics need to do anyway. But there are a lot of variations on the healing cleric. They don't all need to be the same...Variety is good... :D Patty
Sieylianna 03-06-06, 07:24 AM	I agree with Patty. A big part of the advantage of the Radiant Servant prestige class is the ability to empower/maximize to your healing domain spells. There is a reason there are so many radiant servants, which is the class is that good. If you want to follow another deity for variety, that's fine, but don't fool yourself into thinking it's a more optimized choice. If you decide on Ehlenestra, you're giving up a feat at 1st level. If you were a human, you could take empower (or maximize) and the corresponding Divine Metamagic Feat at 6th level. I costs you an extra feat, but you'll be able to use the ability 2-3 times per day. Ed
kjenks 03-06-06, 12:41 PM	A while ago, I made a spreadsheet comparing Favored Soul with Cleric for the number of HP cured/day. At every level, a FS who optimizes his Cha can cast more healing spells than a Cleric who optimizes his Wis. A Cleric can get the Healing domain, which makes them a little better per spell, but just by potential number of HP cured/day, a FS beats a same-level cleric almost every time. Using reasonable assumptions for stats (start Cha or Wis at 17, put level bumps there, buy reasonable Cloak of Cha or Periapt of Wisdom for level, etc.) here are the averages for HP cured/day with the regular Cure spells. Level - Cleric - Favored Soul 1 - 14 - 27 2 - 23 - 38 3 - 50 - 51 4 - 86 - 126 5 - 131 - 152 6 - 171 - 250 7 - 238 - 296 8 - 295 - 434 9 - 324 - 500 10 - 383 - 566 11 - 425 - 608 12 - 459 - 648 13 - 550 - 694 14 - 562 - 710 15 - 574 - 726 For example, at level 1, a Cleric can cast 3x Cure Minor Wounds (1 HP each) and 2x Cure Light Wounds (5.5 HP each) for an average of 14 HP, while a Favored Soul can cast 5x Cure Minor Wounds (1 HP each) and 4x Cure Light Wounds (5.5 HP each) for an average of 27 HP. This comparison assumes every d8 rolls 4.5. It also assumes that the FS has selected all of the Cure spells at spell levels 0-5, which is not a very good assumption. Feats such as Empower Spell can be selected by either class, so I didn't include them in the comparison. Because the FS spell progression lags behind the Cleric, the Cleric gets each new spell level earlier, so a FS will be about tied with the Cleric for HP cured/day at level 3 (50 vs. 51), and at level 11, the Cleric could have two Heal spells (110 HP each), which could bring his daily average up to 645, briefly eclipsing the FS's 608 from Cure spells alone, but the FS wins at every other level. Clerics are much more flexible and probably a better character choice than FS in LG, but if you want a healing machine, Favored Soul is worth a look.
Gyro_LC 03-06-06, 01:47 PM	Wow, favored souls can really pump out healing. The only problem I have with the above post is a practical one: in an adventure my Radiant Servant never uses all of his spells for cures. In fact, I would wager I use less than 20% of my spell slots as cures in the average adventure (not because I dont' cast cure spells, I just need to cast that many). Most of my spell slots are buffs and utilities (water breathing, etc.) which are soley dependent on the particular adventure. In my opinion, there are far too many required spells for a divine caster for a favored soul to be my first choice. Plus pearls of power make up for some of the difference. The Healing domain power is not what makes the RSoP so powerful, it's Augment Healing plus Empower/Maximize Healing. (I don't count Augment Healing + level into the Empower, and I've never been too short on healing.) My favorite thing about being a healing cleric is that you don't have to make a min-maxed character to be great at it. I recommend an item crafting RSoP. It's terribly nice to be able to get pretty much whatever item you want at low costs, which lets you make up for an average build. I went 14, 10, 14, 10, 14, 14 human cleric to RSoP and have had zero complaints. I don't use DMM or DSP, I'd rather have toys. ;) Scribe Scroll- Great at low levels to make up for your lack of 1st level spells. Good at higher levels for having a rarely used spell on hand, i.e., control water or revenance. Craft Wand- Never run out of endure elements, resurgence, lesser restoration, or silence again. Craft Magic Arms & Armor- Lets you keep your AC up so you don't have to worry about healing yourself instead of your party members. Also a good idea to make an extra ghost touch weapon for the fighters just in case. Craft Wondrous Items- Do you really need a list? Periapt of Wisdom +6, vests of resistance, pearls of power, circlet of persuasion (for turn checks), etc.
Nerax 03-08-06, 12:08 AM	Craft Wand- Never run out of endure elements, resurgence, lesser restoration, or silence again. Lesser Restoration in a standard action instead of 3 rounds!
Objulen 03-08-06, 02:37 AM	With a higher dex, and your lower HP, you might consider the value of the Reach Spell feat over Sudden Empower. Later, you could Divine metamagic it, so you could heal up your tanks even without wading into combat, or raising the spell level. (Or you could take empower or maximize and Divine Metamagic.) If you really want to be able to Empower those healing spells, follow Pelor and take the heal domain - 30' foot movement is usually sufficient for what clerics need to do anyway. I would definantly go with DMM:Reach Spell; it would let you keep your healing domain (which let's you keep Empower Healing, Maximize Healing, Supreme Healing) for one, since you can blast friendlies with healing from 30ft away, and with DMM:Reach, which you can do it for free a few times a day (at 3 Turn attempts a pop; with Extra Turning and a CHA of 14, that's 3 times per day -- can you spend Greater Turnings for DMM? if so, that's another 2 uses per day for a 16 CHA cleric, but I don't think you can), you have greater mobility for emergencies. Given that Maximize and Empower doen't apply to Heal, I'd say that this is the way to go. Alternatively, if you want a cleric with a few more offensive options, you can keep the healing mobile cleric with Reach Spell and DMM, but mix in a few inflict and harm spells as needed. The high dex will allow you to hit opponents more easily with those spells.
kjenks 03-08-06, 07:16 AM	Lesser Restoration in a standard action instead of 3 rounds! Not with a wand, you don't. SRD === Activation: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast, however, has a longer casting time than 1 action, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.) === But you can still get Lesser Restoration as a standard action if you put it in a potion.
Nerax 03-08-06, 10:22 AM	Not with a wand, you don't. SRD === Activation: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast, however, has a longer casting time than 1 action, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.) === Dooh! But you can still get Lesser Restoration as a standard action if you put it in a potion. I believe that this is what I was thinking about. There is a player in the area that was talking about the Brew Potion feat and Lesser Restoration. I was confused :embarrass Thanks!
Gyro_LC 03-08-06, 12:13 PM	I believe that this is what I was thinking about. There is a player in the area that was talking about the Brew Potion feat and Lesser Restoration. I was confused :embarrass Thanks! Imagine a potion of lesser restoration with a drinking time of three rounds. Everyone chanting, "Chug! Chug! Chug!" in the middle of a battle.
solbergb 03-08-06, 01:12 PM	One advantage of a favored soul as a healer is lower opportunity cost to cast healing. A cleric burns a useful spell when he heals. A favored soul only burns a spell slot, retaining his full spell potential until his last high level slot is gone. Augment healing is the one feat that probably most helps a medic/support type cleric. Healing is generally a bit behind offensive spell output in power, and the bonus from this feat tends to make up the difference, undoing enemy actions rather than just slowing down the rate of the bleeding.
Paul H 03-08-06, 04:58 PM	Hi My choice for healing Cleric is still the mentioned Radiant Servant Choice of feats: 1) Extra Turning 3) Augment Healing 6) Domain Spontaneity (Healing) So when you need to spontaneous cast a 'Healing' spell, you just use Turn attempt to mak it a 'Domain' spell, so get the Empower ability. Eg. 8th Lvl - spontaneously cast Cure Critical Wnds - Healing Domain 4th Lvl spell, using 1 Turn attempt. Heals 4D8+9 (Caster Lvl, Healing Domain)+8 (Augment Healing), Empowered! (Average 55pts Healing) Even Cure Lt Wnds averages 18 HP healing! Do this as often as you've got Turn attempts/spells to spontaneously cast. Cheers Paul H
Iswald 03-08-06, 09:59 PM	Domain sponteneity doesn't grant you more domain slots to use with the Radiant Servants abilities.
Namarus 03-08-06, 10:01 PM	Hi So when you need to spontaneous cast a 'Healing' spell, you just use Turn attempt to mak it a 'Domain' spell, so get the Empower ability. I beg to differ. In the text of the feat it in no way gives you unlimited domain spells. Just the ability to cast spells from a specific domain's list as a spontanous ability.
Namarus 03-08-06, 10:07 PM	I prefer the feat 'Magic Of The Land' over 'Augment Healing'. It allows you to use buff spells for healing, as well as normal healing spells getting an extra boost from them.
solbergb 03-08-06, 10:16 PM	Magic of the land (Races of Wild) is nice when it works, but it has two rather significant drawbacks 1. It only works in natural settings. 2. You need to make a "Kn Nature" check of the same difficulty as a "Cast defensively" check or your spell fails. For your average cleric or favored soul, you're not making that check without some Divine Insight help. For a Knowledge domain (or any other domain that grants Kn Nature as a class skill) cleric, it isn't as bad, and there are a few PRC's that help eventually (stormlord, loremaster to name two, there are probably others). Even if it is a class skill, clerics aren't exactly dripping with skill points for another skill that needs maxing. My favored soul/medic support type *might* take the feat at level 12, when he has enough stormlord levels and skill ranks to make the roll fairly reliably, but it will never be as reliable as the augment healing feat. Its ability to add healing to a buff spell is pretty cool, especially when you think about healing lorecall and removing nasty states from folks when you heal them...but it won't work in any but the most untouched underground settings, it won't work in buildings or cities and might not work in places like cultivated fields or parks, depending on how the DM interprets the feat. And it can cause your entire spell to fail if you can't make a pretty darn high Kn Nature check on a "take 1"
Sieylianna 03-09-06, 07:27 AM	Magic of the land (Races of Wild) is nice when it works, but it has two rather significant drawbacks I think it's a better feat for bards and wizards than divine casters. As mentioned, only druids and a handful of clerics have knowledge - nature as a class skill. Ed
Mommy was an Orc 03-09-06, 09:17 AM	Well, it depends on what healing angle you're going for - Animal Domain has both the knowledge skill and one pretty nice healing option in Summon Nature's Ally IV(Unicorn for 5d8+25 and Neutralize Poison). Ehlonna has it as a Domain and access to RSoE. Elves(i.e. Gray Elves) can legitimately worship her and a 16 Int and 9th level means a minimum of 16 on the knowledge check. The disadvantage of Magic of the Land is that you won't always be able to use its effects in combat and the knowledge nature skill has to be pretty high. But at 9th level, the Grey Elf I'm thinking about won't be missing it often if at all. And in many mods, the advantages of waiting until after combat to do your healing are significant - at which point you might be able to duck out into a non constructed area or community. On the other hand, if you're going RSoX, I think Craft Wondrous Items and a Turning feat have to be in levels 6 and 3 slots respectively. No one is using 6+ Turning attempts per day - Divine Spell Power can be used to boost healing, too and be used for offensive firepower. I think it's a better feat for bards and wizards than divine casters. As mentioned, only druids and a handful of clerics have knowledge - nature as a class skill. Ed
Reylance 03-09-06, 10:06 AM	Remember that metamagic feats applied to a channeled healing spell increase the casting time to a full round. So you can't run up to the gravely injured fighter and throw a sudden empowered Cure Critical Wounds. That's another reason to have the healing domain; the restrictions won't apply to the memorized spell. The Celerity domain is nice, but I'd recommend an eventual focus on mithral full plate + 16 Dexterity, for a decent AC while still moving 30 feet a round.
MorgaGrimshaw 03-13-06, 11:35 AM	Get +1 mithril chainshirts, and +1 shields (more pluses advised) light armor, defences and great for all classes. Then take the little pluses for upgrades +1 ring of protection, +1 amulate of natural armor. and fight defencively. Go Favored Soal. More healing all around. Take Augment Healing. This feat allows you to add your charisma to healing. Then get the cloak of charisma. Heal like never before. aswell take quicken and maxamise metamagic feats for healing purposes. With that slight build, you could heal and heal and heal for lots of good HP. Also do not spend all of your money on weapons. with other combatents in the party. Protecting you is high priority. Thus combat is not too much of a problem. Remember to not go "HEALER!!! SHOOT AT ME!!! KILL ME FIRST IF YOU WANT TO WIN!!!" I have seen lots of people die like that. However dieties are important and show their symbal, but do not walk around in charics vestments with a flag of your diety like some fools I know. *caugh* Ian *caugh*
Sieylianna 03-13-06, 12:24 PM	Get +1 mithril chainshirts, and +1 shields (more pluses advised) light armor, defences and great for all classes. Then take the little pluses for upgrades +1 ring of protection, +1 amulate of natural armor. and fight defencively. The only one of my PCs who doesn't have (or want) a mithral chain shirt is my druidess (and her animal companion wears one). It's just that good. Ed
solbergb 03-13-06, 02:30 PM	Get +1 mithril chainshirts, and +1 shields (more pluses advised) light armor, defences and great for all classes. Then take the little pluses for upgrades +1 ring of protection, +1 amulate of natural armor. and fight defencively. * Fighting defensively = not being a healing cleric. (you have to attack, if you are attacking, you're not casting heals/buffs) As for the +1 ring/+1 amulet - if you can afford them you could instead have your periapt of wisdom already and be a better spellcaster. I like those items only on a very heavily AC oriented build - and even then, your neck slot is usually better with either con or, for clerics, druids and monks, wisdom booster.
Namarus 03-13-06, 02:50 PM	Take Augment Healing. This feat allows you to add your charisma to healing. No it doesn't.
Nerax 03-13-06, 07:09 PM	The only one of my PCs who doesn't have (or want) a mithral chain shirt is my druidess (and her animal companion wears one). It's just that good. Ed I went to a Border con and played 3 mods of it with my Druid and recieved more access to Mithril than any of my other characters has combined! :rolleyes: So yes, my animal companion will have mithril chain shirt barding soon.
RanielK 03-13-06, 10:43 PM	Take Augment Healing. This feat allows you to add your charisma to healing. No, it doesn't. Augment Healing allows you to add the level of the Conjuration (Healing) spell you cast *2 to the amount of HP cured by the spell. Not bad at all (my RSoP took it at 3rd) since it can add significantly to the higher level spells you cast (to include the vigor spells and mass cure spells). Another good choice is anything with the healing domain for the +1 to caster level for Healing spells.
Namarus 03-13-06, 11:32 PM	I went to a Border con and played 3 mods of it with my Druid and recieved more access to Mithril than any of my other characters has combined! :rolleyes: So yes, my animal companion will have mithril chain shirt barding soon. You know it's really annoying to hear that, it's getting close to two years now with my Arcane Heirophant, and I still have yet to find any sort of Mithril Barding access. :(
Sieylianna 03-14-06, 07:31 AM	You know it's really annoying to hear that, it's getting close to two years now with my Arcane Heirophant, and I still have yet to find any sort of Mithril Barding access.( My druid (57 AR's) has access to mithral from dozens of them, but had to join a meta-org to get access to Dragonhide. And she still hasn't seen access to any pearls of power. (She is planning to stock up on wands of lesser vigor and I'm debating the purchase of a ring of evasion from recent AR's). Ed
Lupo 03-14-06, 08:18 AM	My druid (57 AR's) has access to mithral from dozens of them, but had to join a meta-org to get access to Dragonhide. And she still hasn't seen access to any pearls of power. (She is planning to stock up on wands of lesser vigor and I'm debating the purchase of a ring of evasion from recent AR's). Ed when you are level 5 you can craft pearls of power first level, without access (as they only cost 1000 gp), and with level 9, those of second level.
Namarus 03-14-06, 09:53 AM	My druid (57 AR's) has access to mithral from dozens of them, but had to join a meta-org to get access to Dragonhide. And she still hasn't seen access to any pearls of power. (She is planning to stock up on wands of lesser vigor and I'm debating the purchase of a ring of evasion from recent AR's). Ed I've had mithril for myself, but not the access needed for barding :( Another thing that I've found is quite rare in my region at least is getting a darkwood shield. I've been waiting for something decent to start enchanting up for a while. I'm still using a Kaorti Resin Suit from a Y4 mod, my 3rd AR. Pearls of power though, yeah I've been lucky to get access to 1 and 2, every time I've got access to them I've spent all my cash to buy as many as possible. Those items are just too good, if and when you get access. Has anyone ever seen access to the Natural Bond feat btw?
ranagrande 03-14-06, 01:33 PM	There's a metaorg in Geoff that gives access to Natural Bond.
MorgaGrimshaw 03-20-06, 12:50 PM	Isn't it halarious how enemies have a bunch of stuff we do not have? including more stats. as for healing, good luck. It can depend a lot on your taste. but cross classing is not a good thing. you get better healing spells faster without cross classing. Good luck