Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rogerd 03-13-06, 06:19 PM	My first LG character is not much fun to play. I'm not quite ready to give up on him yet, and I wanted to see if there were any good suggestions in the collective conciousness. First, Vital stats. Wilfrick Oakenheel is a LN Rogue-1/Fighter-1. Str 13, Dex 14, Con 11, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 12. Skill ranks: Bluff-4, Climb 5, Diplomacy 4, Disable Device 2, Gather Information 4, Intimidate 4, Knowledge (Local-VTF) 4, Listen 4, Open Lock 2, Search 4, Sense Motive 4, Spot 4, Use Rope 4. Feats: Investigator, Toughness, Combat Expertise. What was I thinking?!? My stats were designed to maximize total bonus. Then I twiddled Str and Con in order to 1) Allow myself to get Power Attack and 2) Give my statbumps meaning at levels 4 and 8. My original thinking was Rogue-1, Fighter-2 and take Improved Feint and Power Attack at 3rd level. Wilfrick is a LN follower of St. Cuthbert, and is essentially devoted to investigating crimes and apprehending criminals. His skill selection reflects this. He is clearly a social rogue, and has great facility for investigations. He did not bother with stealth or mobility skills. He took minimal open lock/disable device so that he could be a little more useful to the party, plus, what cop can't pick a lock when he needs to? When he took second level, he recalled a situation where he really needed to climb and he inveested his fighter skill points in that. I found the Justiciar class, which pretty well fits his raison-de-etre pretty well. To get there, he'll pretty much need to take on Ranger levels, which I regret not doing at 2nd level. I didn't like the "nature" flavor for this character. Wilfrick is OK at a bunch of things, but not truly wonderful at any one thing. In combat, he is almost completely ineffective. With his whopping +2 bonus with his longsword he is completely ineffective against anything with decent AC. So - any thoughts on how Wilfrick can be transformed into a useful and fun character? Or should I just send him to the triad and see if they want him for an NPC?
Mommy was an Orc 03-13-06, 07:07 PM	First, Vital stats. Wilfrick Oakenheel is a LN Rogue-1/Fighter-1. Str 13, Dex 14, Con 11, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 12. Skill ranks: Bluff-4, Climb 5, Diplomacy 4, Disable Device 2, Gather Information 4, Intimidate 4, Knowledge (Local-VTF) 4, Listen 4, Open Lock 2, Search 4, Sense Motive 4, Spot 4, Use Rope 4. Feats: Investigator, Toughness, Combat Expertise. What was I thinking?!? My stats were designed to maximize total bonus. Then I twiddled Str and Con in order to 1) Allow myself to get Power Attack and 2) Give my statbumps meaning at levels 4 and 8. My original thinking was Rogue-1, Fighter-2 and take Improved Feint and Power Attack at 3rd level. Well, first off, what would have happened if you had taken a 14 Str and 10 Con? You'd have the exact same stats at level 4, but you'd have an extra +1 to hit/damage now. Any time you've got 2 odd stats, both stats should be doing something - having an 11 Con over a 10 gives you very little, but a 14 Str would be making a huge difference. I think the major problem is that you haven't given yourself a role in combat. Rogues tend to be generalists who define their fighting style through their feats and/or stats. Right now, you've taken feats and stats that don't really help each other out. Do you want to be spending a Move Action(Improved Feint) standing next to an Ogre so as to get a 1d6 of Sneak Attack damage? No, because he's likely to kill you due to your low Con and AC(Dex). If I were going to try to save this character, I'd probably turn him into some kind of ranged specialist - Fighter 2 for PBS and Precise Shot, then 2 levels of Ranger for Rapid Shot, followed up by more Rogue levels. That lets you survive your relatively low Con. You'll be a good Rogue for the party, and once you're at level 5, your damage won't be too bad. It won't be easy, though.
paigeoliver 03-13-06, 07:30 PM	Hmmm. Not completely hopeless. But the ability score assignments are, well, I am not going to say they are poor, but they are not even close to what I would assign for a similar character. You are quite simply spread way too thin in every area, ability scores, feats, and even skills. The character is not hopeless. He is still salvageable. My suggestion is forget rogue. Never take another level of it. You have terrible stats for a rogue. I would take another fighter level for another feat, and then move into Paladin, Ranger, Scout, or Marshall. Being an archer, no matter which one you choose. I'd really lean towards Paladin, as it is one of the few classes that could use stats like you have. Truthfully though, if it were my character I would simply start a second character and move that one into a role as a backup character. Ability score wise you made the mistake of wanting bonuses in everything, even though many of the things are giving you bonuses that you are hardly using. I'd suggest a simple rule about starting stats. Everyone should start with a 15 in something (to get boosted to 16 at level 4), and most characters should have 2 (possibly 3) scores in the 8 and 10 range.
opa 03-13-06, 08:31 PM	Geez.. I wouldn't have chosen any of those feats.. but he doesn't seem too bad as a character goes.. I wouldn't go justicar though I'd do a Moon Knight (marvelcomics character)type.. Rogue 1 -Investigator, Toughness Fighter 1- Combat expertise Fighter 2- (dodge),( mobility) Fighter 3 - Bump Con Fighter 4- (Wep focus scimitar), Rogue 2-evasion, (weapon specialization Scimitar) Dervish 1-dervish dance, movement mastery, slashing blade rogue 3 sneak attack 2d6, trapsense +1 dervish 2 fast move +5 ft,(elusive target) dervish 3 spring attack, dervish dance 2 per day dervish 4 dance of death dervish 5 fast movement + 10 ft, dervish dance 3 per day,(Improved combat expertise) dervish 6 improved reaction dervish 7 elaborate parry, dervish dance 4 per day dervish 8 fast movement +15, (dash) If thats too far off the mark you had for him I would do a scarlet pimpernell type Rogue 1 , (investigator), (toughness) Fighter 1, (Combat expertise) Fighter 2, (dodge), (mobility) Swashbuckler 1,(Weapon Finesse) bump con Swashbuckler 2 grace + 1 Rogue 2,(spring attack), evasion Swashbuckler 3, insightful strike Rogue 3 sneak 2d6, trap sense +1 bump str Fighter 3,(elusive target) Fighter 4,(Weapon Specialization) after 10 levels he'd be BAB+9, so he's only down 1 off straight fighter +12/+7 to hit not counting equiptment, and +6 to damage did it up pretty quick so may be some mistakes, it was an interesting exorcise, I have never built around a combat expertise tree before, It really does scream spring attacker though...
Nerax 03-13-06, 09:13 PM	Your character is by no means worthless. Would I make him a secondary charater maybe. If you are really trying to save him keep ploding away and he will become decent. Or you could make him a secoundary character for all invesigative mods. The below builds are good and the Archer build from Orc is good too. I would suggest with the below builds taking two or three levels in Scout. It will give you Skirmish damage, Battle Fortitude(+1 Init, +1 Fort) Uncanny Dodge, Fast movement 10, +1 to AC and Trackless step(not really an LG ussable feature). The link is to my character build: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8642023&postcount=14 Hope this helps a little! Rogue 1 -Investigator, Toughness Fighter 1- Combat expertise Fighter 2- (dodge),( mobility) Fighter 3 - Bump Con Fighter 4- (Wep focus scimitar), Rogue 2-evasion, (weapon specialization Scimitar) Dervish 1-dervish dance, movement mastery, slashing blade rogue 3 sneak attack 2d6, trapsense +1 dervish 2 fast move +5 ft,(elusive target) dervish 3 spring attack, dervish dance 2 per day dervish 4 dance of death dervish 5 fast movement + 10 ft, dervish dance 3 per day,(Improved combat expertise) dervish 6 improved reaction dervish 7 elaborate parry, dervish dance 4 per day dervish 8 fast movement +15, (dash) Rogue 1 , (investigator), (toughness) Fighter 1, (Combat expertise) Fighter 2, (dodge), (mobility) Swashbuckler 1,(Weapon Finesse) bump con Swashbuckler 2 grace + 1 Rogue 2,(spring attack), evasion Swashbuckler 3, insightful strike Rogue 3 sneak 2d6, trap sense +1 bump str Fighter 3,(elusive target) Fighter 4,(Weapon Specialization) It really does scream spring attacker though... Yes it does!
Mommy was an Orc 03-13-06, 09:45 PM	It really does scream spring attacker though... The problem with taking Dodge/Mobility is that doesn't really solve his problem - namely he doesn't function well in combat - he still can't afford to move up to things, because they'll kill him with his 13 Str/14 Dex/11 Con. The advantage of Fighter 2 and taking PBS/Precise Shot is that he can contribute as soon as he hits level 3. Then he can go back to focusing on being the guy who finds traps and happens to be an okay archer.
opa 03-13-06, 10:52 PM	My main character is a skill monkey archer and I love playing one, so I kinda agree with you on the point blank precise shot, but having said that ...just not for the character with feats and stuff he already has, it almosts wastes the first two levels of his career and if thats the case why not start a new character.. My builds were attempts to optimize his character His 13 str 14 dex and 11 con don't mean he'll get killed in combat by any means with chain mail and shield he is at AC 19(20 with dodge) not at all bad for a 2nd level character( don't bother posting about armor check penalties most of his skills wouldn't be affected so why not heavierarmor for now), his next three levels would be fighter classes adding more than enough hit points to make him a secondary fighter.(32 hpw/con bump at 4)and his strength problems can be overcome by weapon finesse (allowing him to use his higher dex and flanking)to hit and insightful strike and weapon specialization for damage (adding +4 to damage) don't forget he gets the 1d6 sneak damage while flanking, and his high ac including dodge mobility and eventually tumble help him get to flank, dealing significant damage himself and aiding the tank alot He won't be the primary tank for quite a while, but dodge and mobility will allow him to be the flanker for the tank , adding quite a bit to combat even if not the primary tank, taking swashbuckler optimizes his putting points in intel by adding int bonus to damage, getting 5 ranks of tumble quick, fighting defensively or total defense and combat expertise can get him up to over a 30 ac by 5th level if he has to cork . getting him up to spring attack will finally make him a offensive melee player and optimizes his choice of combat expertise as a choice. Both of the builds I suggested do the best with what is presented, and make him a very viable character by mid levels. and certainly playable until then although damage dealing will be his sore spot for a few levels, but he will have a ton of skills the ability to pump his ac to near 30
Namarus 03-13-06, 11:36 PM	My first LG character is not much fun to play. I'm not quite ready to give up on him yet, and I wanted to see if there were any good suggestions in the collective conciousness. First, Vital stats. Wilfrick Oakenheel is a LN Rogue-1/Fighter-1. Str 13, Dex 14, Con 11, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 12. Skill ranks: Bluff-4, Climb 5, Diplomacy 4, Disable Device 2, Gather Information 4, Intimidate 4, Knowledge (Local-VTF) 4, Listen 4, Open Lock 2, Search 4, Sense Motive 4, Spot 4, Use Rope 4. Feats: Investigator, Toughness, Combat Expertise. What was I thinking?!? My stats were designed to maximize total bonus. Then I twiddled Str and Con in order to 1) Allow myself to get Power Attack and 2) Give my statbumps meaning at levels 4 and 8. My original thinking was Rogue-1, Fighter-2 and take Improved Feint and Power Attack at 3rd level. Wilfrick is a LN follower of St. Cuthbert, and is essentially devoted to investigating crimes and apprehending criminals. His skill selection reflects this. He is clearly a social rogue, and has great facility for investigations. He did not bother with stealth or mobility skills. He took minimal open lock/disable device so that he could be a little more useful to the party, plus, what cop can't pick a lock when he needs to? When he took second level, he recalled a situation where he really needed to climb and he inveested his fighter skill points in that. I found the Justiciar class, which pretty well fits his raison-de-etre pretty well. To get there, he'll pretty much need to take on Ranger levels, which I regret not doing at 2nd level. I didn't like the "nature" flavor for this character. Wilfrick is OK at a bunch of things, but not truly wonderful at any one thing. In combat, he is almost completely ineffective. With his whopping +2 bonus with his longsword he is completely ineffective against anything with decent AC. So - any thoughts on how Wilfrick can be transformed into a useful and fun character? Or should I just send him to the triad and see if they want him for an NPC? Well, if region is Verbobonc you could try and qualify for the Shadowbane Inquisitor, which is avialable via the St Cuthbertern Meta-org.
Lomiat 03-14-06, 12:08 AM	My advice? Not every LG character is about combat effectiveness. Get past that tendency in a hurry, and you'll have more fun with this character. The Justicar interests you? Then go for it. You can turn this character into a Gather Information monster. That can be your schtick. I recommend Rogue at 3rd level. Take skill focus: Gather Information. Get the synergy bonuses to Diplomacy and start building the skills you're going to focus on as a Justicar: Gather Information, Search, Spot, Listen, Open Lock. At 4th level, go Ranger, get the ranks you need in Survival. You'll never be a premium tracker, but so what. Bump your STR so you feel more useful in combat, but play it safe. Use your Combat Expertise and team tactics. There's no shame in fighting defensively to aid another's attack or AC. Heck, those players will love you. By 7th level, you'll have the BAB, feat, and skill requirements for Justicar. A good combination of classes would be Rgr2/Rog3/Ftr2 for feats or Rgr2/Rog4/Ftr1 for Uncanny Dodge. I recommend going for the Uncanny Dodge and skill points. Buy a longspear. Then you have better options. Fight look really tough? Fight it 10 ft back, fighting defensively to add to Joe the Half-orc nutter's attack. Get your free two-weapon fighting with Rgr and start fighting with a sword and spiked shield. I don't remember if it's Core or Limited, but you could take Goad and then go full defensive. If the NPCs waste their full attacks on you every round, and you're pumping your AC up to crazy level, then your teammates get to beat on the bad guys without retribution. Clerics will be happy to heal you if you're that kind of a team player. This character's not a waste buy any means; he's just not the guy who's going to astonish everyone with his beat-stick combat utility. His combat utility will be about group tactics and wits. That, to me, sounds like a fun challenge. Goad (from Complete Adventurer): Prereqs: Cha 13, BAB +1. As a move action, you can goad an opponent that threatens you, has line of sight to you, can hear you, and has an Intelligence of 3 or higher. (The goad is a mind-affecting ability.) When the goaded opponent starts its next turn, if it threatens you and has line of sight to you, it must make a Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your Cha modifier). If the opponent fails its save, you are the only creature it can make melee attacks against this turn... etc.... Later on, Staggering Strike (also from CV) might be very good.
Mommy was an Orc 03-14-06, 11:26 AM	His 13 str 14 dex and 11 con don't mean he'll get killed in combat by any means with chain mail and shield he is at AC 19(20 with dodge) not at all bad for a 2nd level character I'm speaking more metaphorically than literally, but let's make a comparison... Str 15, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 10 Rogue 1/Fighter 2 Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Quickdraw, and Power Attack Wears Full Plate and Buckler and wields a Guisarme and Flail(s), eventually Masterwork Manacles. I don't think many people would call this guy particularly optimized or pointy. But this guy kills the original character in combat while being able to do what he does out of combat - he hits more often, he does more damage, he has a better AC, and best of all, he has options that protect the party. But here's where he really kills the Spring Attack builds that are being proposed - he's able to do what the original poster wants to do out of combat and in the direction he wants to go. Here would be a build that does this: Human Str 15, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 10 1: Rogue 1: Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise(wields Longspear) 2: Fighter 1: Improved Trip 3: Fighter 2: Quickdraw, Power Attack 4: Rogue 2: Strength 16 5: Rogue 3 6: Ranger 1: Track, Skill Focus(Gather Information) 7: Rogue 4 8: Justiciar 1: Strength 17 9: Justiciar 2: Improved Grapple, Staggering Strike(CAdv) 10: Justiciar 3: EWP: Manacles 11: Justiciar 4 12: Justiciar 5: Strength 18, ? 13: Justiciar 6 14: Justiciar 7 15: Justiciar 8: ? He ends up being a good, tough, smart near full BAB fighter while hewing to the original concept - Dervish is far, far, far away from that. Now obviously, the problem is that the original poster is already 2nd level - but if you like the roleplaying concept a lot, I'd probably retire him for a full time job as a cop and say his younger, tougher, but not quite so wise/charming 1st level brother appeared. He almost does what the older brother does out of combat, but he's effective enough in combat to enjoy all aspects of adventuring. The advantage of starting with Strength 15 is that you'll end up on an even number at levels 4 and 12. It affects all your combat manuevers, particularly Trips and Grapples. Just a thought...
Lomiat 03-14-06, 11:47 AM	Of course, a Rogue in full-plate loses Evasion, so that kind of stinks. I think, more to the point, the question is how to make the existing character valuable (if not powerful) in combat and to take advantage of the balanced attributes (bonus to WIS and CHA, for example). A level of a divine spellcasting class might take good advantage of the 12 WIS. Perhaps the character could go for a level or two of Pious Templar along the way to Justicar (or afterward). The 12 CHA suggests this character might not be the primary "face" when there's a more dedicated face available, but the CHA, along with Investigator and the requisite Skill Focus (Gather Info) means that this guy will learn whatever there is to learn from the locals. The WIS also provides a subtle boost to Spot and Listen. But, to reiterate my original point, the fun in this character is not whether or not he's going to be more beastly than an optimized character (the answer is "No"), but rather is the player going to be able to find a niche in most parties that this guy can help fill. If the player works this character toward his strengths, the answer is a definite yes.
Mommy was an Orc 03-14-06, 01:24 PM	But, to reiterate my original point, the fun in this character is not whether or not he's going to be more beastly than an optimized character (the answer is "No"), but rather is the player going to be able to find a niche in most parties that this guy can help fill. If the player works this character toward his strengths, the answer is a definite yes. He's got a 12 Charisma. He should not be spending all his feats on things that rely on Charisma unless he's planning on levelling it - and as he has 2 odd scores that are not Charisma, that's really not a great option for him... If he were to follow your advice, he would have 3 feats that rely solely on Charisma to work effectively. That's more feats than my Bard/Marshal has...
solbergb 03-14-06, 01:40 PM	I've been told that I could make any character work well, but I've got to say, this one is probably on the edge. You've got basically two options here. 1. Go fullBAB, try to turn power attack into something useful. Maybe even get barbarian levels to get some real strength and shore up the constitution. I hate this option, because it kills your character concept. 2. Be a pure skillmonkey, who scrapes and scrounges to contribute in combat, using alchemicals in the low levels, UMD in the higher levels and maybe archery as was suggested earlier. Your highest attribute is dex, and your con and expected AC is too low for a front line fighter after APL4. This at least hews to the concept, although the second fighter level is going to be a black hole for your skill points in the short run. I don't know how much fun it's going to be in combat though, you have to be quite creative to contribute meaningfully when your character is so far behind the PHB iconics in raw capability. It *can* contribute - but never very well, at least not for a long while. Should you go this route, I recommend bringing him along only when the blurb indicates his skills will be useful (social or investigative adventures). Frankly I like the revised 15 str/Justicar build posted above, as it hews closely to the original concept while being able to fight meaningfully right out of the box. I suspect at level 1, that char will contribute more than your current one does even though he's level 2.
rogerd 03-14-06, 02:25 PM	Thanks to all who have replied. This is in fact my secondary character, and I learned a lot from him. He does suffer from poor choices in stats (I didn't want to dump anything), and feats (Toughness!), and his biggest problem is in fact finding a role in combat. He doesn't excel at any one thing, but out of combat he does have some utility to a party. I'm hoping to find ways to make him excel at a few things and make sure he has a role in a fight. I am considering the archer route. Archer actually does make sense for this character based on prior history, and I probably should have reflected that in his feats. Maybe its not too late to get back to that idea. I'm not sure how that meshes with the Justiciar idea though. The Scout and Swashbuckler ideas raised by Nerax and Opa are interesting. I'm concerned about a BAB hit with the Scout though - I'd be more inclined to continue rogue and dip into Ranger for outdoor skills. Swashbuckler gives weapon finesse, but is that worth it when I'm one stat bump away from a tied Dex and Str? Insightful strike makes some sense, but it'll take three levels to get there, and I have to ask what other levels I could take? Shadowbane Inquisitor and Paladin are both unavailable without an alignment change, so I don't think I'm likely to go that way. Lomiat's advice is the closest to what I was thinking about. I wasn't absolutely sure what skills I would end up emphasizing, but that looks like a reasonable set. I'll actually get 7 total skills per level once I start taking Justiciar, so there are two more skill points per level to play with than Lomiat was suggesting. I suppose I could throw in an extra rogue level every so often to keep Disable Device caught up as well (not a Justiciar skill). Mommy's build was interesting, but a bit close to my main character (Rask, the half-orc chainfighter that serves as my avatar). I'm not sure I'd want to build him too close to that, but combat expertise for both makes it a little too close for comfort maybe. I had thought of putting him in plate armor. He could indeed get a large AC with Combat Expertise + Tower Shield + Full Plate + magic enhancements. Only the climb skill is affected by armor. That does beg the question of whether to take Ranger 2 though - the combat style is only useful in light or no armor. Maybe the role is to march around to the enemy's rear (not tumble, just take the AOOs) to provide flanks and then either assist or sneak attack defensively, hoping mainly not to get hit. With a Ranseur he could do a reach disarm with a +6. Locking gauntlets could prevent him from losing the weapon. Have to use the buckler with this idea. 5 ranks of tumble would boost AC while fighting defensively. As a higher level Justiciar, the main goal would be to hog-tie, which means being a grappler. Aside from Strength and Improved Grapple, does that lead to any notions about where to go from here?
Mommy was an Orc 03-14-06, 03:00 PM	As a higher level Justiciar, the main goal would be to hog-tie, which means being a grappler. Aside from Strength and Improved Grapple, does that lead to any notions about where to go from here? I would not go Justiciar with this current character as the benefits of Justiciar just aren't worth losing the skill points of Rogue. I'd probably go Rogue 11/Fighter 2/Ranger 2 - gives you an additional 2 feats and keeps you out of melee. Though it isn't as generally useful, you can switch Improved Trip to Improved Disarm and the Guisarme to Ranseur in my build if that helps avoid the dissonance...that's the only change that needs to be made.
Sieylianna 03-14-06, 05:29 PM	I am considering the archer route. Archer actually does make sense for this character based on prior history, and I probably should have reflected that in his feats. Maybe its not too late to get back to that idea. I'm not sure how that meshes with the Justiciar idea though. Purchase the Merciful enchantment when you get access and hog-tie your prisoners when they are unconscious. I have 4 or 5 socially oriented rogues in various home and living campaigns at this point. None of them has a 13 Strength or Power Attack (or toughness). As people have pointed out, your character suffers from a lack of focus. Fortunately, you are still low level, so you can make adjustments. With your Constitution you don't want to get in melee, so archer works well for you. The fighter 2/ranger 2 / rogue x looks like a reasonable approach. Ed
DeimosGandymede 03-16-06, 08:12 PM	You could also go two weapon fighting and stick with Warrior class, allowing your 1st Level Rogue abilities to give you that extra sneak attack damage. Not to mention you have a 14 INT, so Combat Expertise is your best friend. Ever. I mean, jacking up your AC by up to your base attack bonus (max 5) is really good. Then, once you get a 6 BAB, you can get Imp. Combat Expertise, with no upper limit. Combo with Rogue sneakiness seems pretty decent. /shrug -MW-