Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shieldhart91 11-05-06, 07:12 PM	Well, my Fighter has a +1 Greatsword. Once my Fighter is L6, I'll have a L4 Bard Cohort following me around with a Wand of Cure Light, playing music to make me more beefy and healing damage. I decided to maximize damage by adding the Vicious enchantment to my longsword with some AR Access I want to use up. +2d6 damage, 1d6 damage to myself (which will be healed by my Bard). I have about 49 hit points, and I'll have 58 when I level up. So I'm not exactly worried about it. Anyways, what's the cost of adding Vicious to a weapon? I'm not good with adding these magical costs up...confuses me. Thanks, Rick
_m_ 11-05-06, 07:23 PM	if you look in the DMG it has a table which lists the costs of enchantments +1 through +5. i imagine vicious is what, a +2 enchantment. so just look at what +2 onto +1 is, and theres your price.
jstorrie 11-05-06, 09:23 PM	Vicious can be pretty troublesome if you don't have Fast Healing. It's +1, so you're looking for the difference between a +1 and +2 weapon if you choose to upgrade. To be honest, I'd forego Vicious and start saving for Holy (or waiting for Sacred.)
DuctShuiTengu 11-05-06, 10:30 PM	Vicious can be pretty troublesome if you don't have Fast Healing. It's +1, so you're looking for the difference between a +1 and +2 weapon if you choose to upgrade. To be honest, I'd forego Vicious and start saving for Holy (or waiting for Sacred.) One option for mitigating the downside of Vicious at least somewhat is to combine it with Merciful, since it's then just a d6 of subdual that you're doing to yourself (which you'll probably heal most of recovering from the damage you took from your opponent). Of course, it also knocks the damage you're doing to your opponents down to subdual as well, so you'll probably want a backup weapon, though I find that for monsters that are vulnerable to subdual, it's not significantly less effective than real damage (and in situations where you want them alive, it's even more effective). In general though, unless it's to help you get past DR, I find that you're better off going with another +1 on two handed weapons. +1 to hit means another 2 damage (for an extra 3 total) that you can safely power-attack for, and whatever your fighting doesn't get to apply a seperate set of resistances to them (I've seen a few too many outsiders and the like negate the extra damage from flaming, frost, shocking, and/or corrosive weapons).
kenobi65 11-05-06, 11:09 PM	It's +1, so you're looking for the difference between a +1 and +2 weapon if you choose to upgrade. Which would be an incremental 6000gp, if you're adding it to a +1 weapon.
Shieldhart91 11-05-06, 11:53 PM	With the rates of Living Greyhawk, I won't be able to afford Holy for quite some time. I'm just going to go with the +1 Vicious Greatsword. After that, I'm going to get a +1 Ghost Touch Longsword: I hate me some incorporeal baddies. Thanks. I just didn't know how the pricing worked or anything like that. Subdual damage is useless in Furyondy =D Too many Undead! That's the only reason I'd even considering purchasing Holy (other then I am a Knight of the Hart).
_m_ 11-06-06, 12:19 AM	question though: are you more likely to get a benefit out of hitting incoropreal creatures, or more likely to get a benefit out of say, an extra d6 on every attack.
JohnduBois 11-06-06, 12:39 AM	Subdual damage is useless in Furyondy =D Too many Undead! I'm sure I don't know what you're talking about... It is absolutely not true that when the Furyondy PoC saw me buying Libris Mortis, he asked if it was so that I could start writing for the region... :angelhide Seriously, though, I recommend holding out for Sacred access. It's bound to come up again sooner or later, and your location makes it very high on the cost-to-usefullness ratio.
Iswald 11-06-06, 11:08 AM	I have seen a player use viscious quite effecively. But, I believe that his PC depended upon having a high AC more than high hps so that he ended up doing more damage to himself than his enemies were.
_m_ 11-06-06, 07:10 PM	just get sum damage reduction and / or fast healing and ul be fine.
Lomiat 11-06-06, 08:02 PM	Vicious: The math on the Vicious upgrade works like this: IF the extra Vicious damage helps take down your opponent quickly enough that the sum total of the damage your opponent does to you PLUS the damage you deal to yourself is less than it would be if you did not have the Vicious enhancement, THEN it is a good buy. This, however, is a difficult total to measure. It can work for characters who: 1) Have high ACs, rarely get hit, and need a bit of an extra Oompf! to their damage. (The idea, here, is that you're basically trading straight 2d6 for 1d6, assuming you don't get hit much by the baddies.) 2) Have a few, big attacks and ways to avoid taking full-attack repurcusions, such as Spring Attack or Improved Trip. 3) Have high HP totals and high damage outputs, so that the Vicious enhancement puts the damage total over the cap needed to drop the baddie a round earlier than it othewise would be felled, thus sparing the PC an extra round's worth of full-attack nastiness. (Example: A 15th level fighter type with 4 attacks, hasted, Power Attacking for oodles who manages to drop the big baddie in 2 rounds can probably survive the average of 28 HPs from Vicious in order to stave off the likely 200 HPs or so worth of full-attack he/she would have taken otherwise.)
budleiser 11-06-06, 10:57 PM	I seem to remember that you can turn off alot of these abilities with a standard action, so if you find yourself in a mod where said ability might not be useful consider it off until needed. (Merciful rocks!)
kenobi65 11-07-06, 01:12 PM	I seem to remember that you can turn off alot of these abilities with a standard action, so if you find yourself in a mod where said ability might not be useful consider it off until needed. (Merciful rocks!) This is true of some special weapon abilities, but not Vicious -- it's "always-on". Compare: Flaming: Upon command, a flaming weapon is sheathed in fire. The fire does not harm the wielder. The effect remains until another command is given. A flaming weapon deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the fire energy upon their ammunition. Merciful: The weapon deals an extra 1d6 points of damage, and all damage it deals is nonlethal damage. On command, the weapon suppresses this ability until commanded to resume it. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the merciful effect upon their ammunition. Vicious: When a vicious weapon strikes an opponent, it creates a flash of disruptive energy that resonates between the opponent and the wielder. This energy deals an extra 2d6 points of damage to the opponent and 1d6 points of damage to the wielder. Only melee weapons can be vicious.
Iswald 11-07-06, 10:58 PM	This is true of some special weapon abilities, but not Vicious -- it's "always-on". Compare: Unless it says that it is always on, you can turn it off. Nothing in the description for viscious says that it is always on. Consider acidic burst (Sto, pg 129), "Even if the corrosive ability is not active, the weapon still deals its extra acid damage on a critical hit." (Corrosive is like flaming, except it does acid damage instead of fire. Acidic burst is like flaming burst.)
_m_ 11-07-06, 11:17 PM	gut feeling... one would think vicious wouldnt want to be turned off :D
awroe 11-08-06, 05:08 AM	Unless it says that it is always on, you can turn it off. Nothing in the description for viscious says that it is always on. Consider acidic burst (Sto, pg 129), "Even if the corrosive ability is not active, the weapon still deals its extra acid damage on a critical hit." (Corrosive is like flaming, except it does acid damage instead of fire. Acidic burst is like flaming burst.) Do you have a source that states enchantments can generally be turned on and off? Since the corrosive-style abilities all specifically state they can be turned off, the text there is necessary to indicate that the crit damage does not function like that, but that does not imply all abilities are toggleable. Would you say that you can toggle off the +1 on a +1 longsword to leave you with a masterwork weapon? Would be very useful in at least one mod I've played (silly DR/non-magic...)
Iswald 11-08-06, 09:33 AM	Since the corrosive-style abilities all specifically state they can be turned off, the text there is necessary to indicate that the crit damage does not function like that, but that does not imply all abilities are toggleable. You might be onto something. I probably have it backwards.
solbergb 11-08-06, 01:39 PM	Vicious is the cheapest, most reliable way to get extra damage on a weapon, extra damage that works on absolutely everything. You have to be a bit careful on the hitpoint reserve when using it, but getting even one guy all the way dead instead of just wounded tends to more than pay for the hp loss because you aren't getting mauled by his counterattack. Heck the hp damage can even save your life! If you are in single digit hitpoints, you WANT to take enough damage to fall down before the enemy counterattacks. Here is a safe way to apply damage to yourself while also contributing some last gasp damage. I admit though, on my monk, I chose to make my reach weapon vicious, not any weapon I could flurry with. taking 3d6 on a full attack where everything hits instead of 5d6 seemed more reasonable, and it was my "single hit" damage (AOO's, move and hit stuff) that needed help, not my flurry damage. If I'm low on hp, I can use unarmed strike or use the weapon to trip, disarm or whatever...stuff that doesn't set off the vicious.
Mommy was an Orc 11-08-06, 04:07 PM	In general though, unless it's to help you get past DR, I find that you're better off going with another +1 on two handed weapons. +1 to hit means another 2 damage (for an extra 3 total) that you can safely power-attack for, and whatever your fighting doesn't get to apply a seperate set of resistances to them (I've seen a few too many outsiders and the like negate the extra damage from flaming, frost, shocking, and/or corrosive weapons). Except when GMW is in the picture... A +1 Flaming, Corrosive Sword that has GMW +3 applied to it is the same thing as a +3 Sword...
_m_ 11-08-06, 05:32 PM	Heck the hp damage can even save your life! If you are in single digit hitpoints, you WANT to take enough damage to fall down before the enemy counterattacks. Here is a safe way to apply damage to yourself while also contributing some last gasp damage. you'd wanna be carefull on this one. ive seen enemies look at the fighter who dropped, notice hes not quite dead, and pump an i-hit-you-cuz-ur-prone-but-not-dead attack into him.
DuctShuiTengu 11-08-06, 08:55 PM	Except when GMW is in the picture... A +1 Flaming, Corrosive Sword that has GMW +3 applied to it is the same thing as a +3 Sword... True enough. I guess it's at least partly a matter of how you balance effectiveness without those buffs against being able to take advantage of them. And how much of a difference the enemies you fight create between an extra d6 of elemental damage and an extra 3 damage added to your roll. I've rarely seen GMW and have run into a lot of enemies that had 5 or so resistance to various elements, which leaves a 1 in 6 chance of flaming/frost/shocking/corrosive adding any damage. If you can usually count on getting GMW cast on you, and/or most stuff you fight is going to be vulnerable to the elemental damage, then they provide better returns on damage. If you rarely see GMW and/or most things have elemental resistance/immunity, go with the +2/+3/[insert-number-here]. Of course, the elemental damage becomes more attractive when you move away from two-handed weapons (less return/not able to use Power Attack to make up the difference).
solbergb 11-08-06, 09:16 PM	you'd wanna be carefull on this one. ive seen enemies look at the fighter who dropped, notice hes not quite dead, and pump an i-hit-you-cuz-ur-prone-but-not-dead attack into him. Usually they move on to somebody who is actually dangerous to them. And you are no better off if you are standing next to him with 1 hp. You WILL die for sure. If you are down, he'll usually go find someone more dangerous to hurt. Some chance of survival is better than none. And hey, that extra 2d6 damage per hit might drop him, so he isn't there to smack you at all.
jstorrie 11-10-06, 06:51 PM	So really, you'd want to put vicious on your armor spikes and keep in reserve for that situation?
_m_ 11-12-06, 07:47 AM	Usually they move on to somebody who is actually dangerous to them. And you are no better off if you are standing next to him with 1 hp. You WILL die for sure. If you are down, he'll usually go find someone more dangerous to hurt. Some chance of survival is better than none. And hey, that extra 2d6 damage per hit might drop him, so he isn't there to smack you at all. usually is a great word... but it dosent help explaining why the guy just died from the npc killing him after he dropped himself to the ground. some monsters are smart, vicious, or under orders to kill singles. or heck, they might have enough reach / attacks / movement / special abilities to kill you and still hit others. im sorry, but i just dont think dropping yourself is ever a good idea.
chesspiece 11-12-06, 02:25 PM	usually is a great word... but it dosent help explaining why the guy just died from the npc killing him after he dropped himself to the ground. some monsters are smart, vicious, or under orders to kill singles. or heck, they might have enough reach / attacks / movement / special abilities to kill you and still hit others. im sorry, but i just dont think dropping yourself is ever a good idea. To me, this sounds like the "Team Badguy" DMing philosophy. Sure, Thug#5 could CDG you while you're down. Or he could charge one of the other PCs that is threatening to hurt him & his friends. Killing a KO'd PC generally is good for Team Badguy / not optimal for Team Thug / bad for Team PCs. By using those actions to try to win the fight instead makes more sense for the Team Thug. If he already knows he can't win, he'd probably be better off to use the unconcious PC to bargain an escape / more favourable surrender. Yes, there are exceptions. Some NPCs are hungry, spiteful, evil (fiends), or have an overdeveloped sense of vengeance. In those cases it could make sense for them to kill a downed enemy and suffer the likely defeat and vengeance. Or if they've seen the PCs' capabilities and know they'd rather make sure a primary threat doesn't get healed. In any of the cases above, the Player probably knows what might happen. In general - it is best for Judges / DMs to attempt to get inside the NPCs' heads and have them act in a way that makes sense. As Players, if you find a Judge is playing for Team Badguy instead of Team Thug - and they show an unwillingness to change - you might want to avoid their tables. As an example - there's an Author that Judged a friend of mine for an online playtest. During the module, he set his sights on killing my friend's cohort. 3 cohort kills in one module. After my friend Judged the module, he said the kills didn't make sense for the NPCs as written and that in one case, shouldn't have been possible at all. Now, it could have been worse and this could be a case of post-playtest rewrites. But given some other things I've heard about this individual, I wouldn't like to play at his table.
Kelios_Lyonsmane 11-27-06, 11:53 AM	just get sum damage reduction and / or fast healing and ul be fine. too bad this is not FR Priest of Ilmater with montrous regen and blood ( or is it pact) of the martyr (dont have the books at work ) with a viscious/merciful/ mace of impact :cool: my DM wanted to kill me :hides: Monstrous Regen : all damage taken execpt from fire and acid are subdual '' '' of the Martyr : imune to subdual add energy protection acid and Fire and ... say ... shield others and well you get a character that is VERY hard to kill :D
_m_ 11-27-06, 04:59 PM	too bad this is not FR Priest of Ilmater with montrous regen and blood ( or is it pact) of the martyr (dont have the books at work ) with a viscious/merciful/ mace of impact :cool: my DM wanted to kill me :hides: Monstrous Regen : all damage taken execpt from fire and acid are subdual '' '' of the Martyr : imune to subdual add energy protection acid and Fire and ... say ... shield others and well you get a character that is VERY hard to kill :D until someone just casts unluck and phantasmal killer.
Japangirl 11-27-06, 08:00 PM	Or a fatespinner spins up the DC, spins down your save, and casts Baleful Polymorph or Flesh to Stone or (as mentioned above) Phantasmal Killer or Implosion at really high levels.
_m_ 11-27-06, 09:16 PM	Or a fatespinner spins up the DC, spins down your save, and casts Baleful Polymorph or Flesh to Stone or (as mentioned above) Phantasmal Killer or Implosion at really high levels. mmm. its a goodn. fatespinner dc, + unluck, + spin down the save, + phantasmal killer. you can do it at like, level 7 to 9 ish, and its HARDcore.
solbergb 11-28-06, 10:50 AM	If you can stick unluck, why not just stick hold monster and be done with it. The save is harder (especially if you spin up THAT save DC). Anything you can phantasmal killer you can probably hold.
Japangirl 11-28-06, 03:54 PM	True. And a held creature is helpless, thus coup de'grace-able.
Kelios_Lyonsmane 11-30-06, 02:16 PM	until someone just casts unluck and phantasmal killer. or a simple power word kill and yes thats how i died ( with a natural 1 )'' You cant kill me stupid archmage , as long as my god is with me i cannot die ! '' Prouved me wrong ...
solbergb 11-30-06, 07:31 PM	power word kill has no save. It's based on your hitpoint total. I think you are mixing it up with finger of death.
_m_ 12-06-06, 07:04 PM	indeed. hence unluck phantasmal killer, because it has a chance to kill anything, hp regardless, unlike pw:k which is -100 max.