Hide Shield [Archive] - Wizards Community

Hide Shield [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Koradril
05-15-07, 03:09 AM I've just recently noticed that the hide shield from Sandstorm is open access. I'm curious as to what type of shield this is, as it is not specified. Is it considered a medium, heavy, tower, or exotic shield? Can my cleric use it without any special feats?
JJeff
05-15-07, 05:49 AM I believe it is considered a Tower Shield since it keeps getting compared to one in the text
Ramacass
05-15-07, 08:15 AM It seems to me that it could be used by any character who was proficient "with all shields (except tower shields)" as it is not specified otherwise and there is no hide shield proficiency- unlike extreme sheilds etc.
kjenks
05-15-07, 09:13 AM Ramacass is correct. Your cleric can use one. (Mine does.)

This is a really nice shield. It's kinda like a tower shield, only better in several ways. The hide shield penalty is only -1 on attacks, not the -2 penalty from a tower shield. Since it's just a regular old shield, no extra feat is required for proficiency. You can take full cover with a hide shield, presumably using the FAQ rules for tower shields.

My fighter/druid bought one from AR access. It significantly changed the first round of two combats in his next adventure, completely negating attacks that could have been quite painful.
kjenks
05-15-07, 09:15 AM Hide shield. Sandstorm, page 99. No special proficiency required. Cost 50 gp. Shield bonus +3. Maximum dex bonus +4. Armor Check penalty -3. Arcane Spell Failure 30%. Weight 30 lb. Provides "cover as a tower shield does. By giving up your attacks for the round, you gain total cover. The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can target the shield. Since it is made of lighter material than a tower shield, you only take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while wielding a hide shield in combat. You cannot bash with a hide shield, nor can you use your shield hand for anything else."
JJeff
05-15-07, 12:49 PM Ok, I assume I'm wrong then. Does that mean characters that are proficient in only light shields like a warmage can use this? Can a Warmage ignore ASF while using this shield?
Koradril
05-15-07, 01:02 PM Alright, that sounds fair enough. I guess my second question about what type of shield it counts as still holds. Can I gain the benefit of using shield specialization using this shield? I'd really like to pick up the shield ward feat at some point, but don't want to waste the shield specialization.
Swiftbrook
05-15-07, 01:13 PM (broken rules idea here)

So how about a mithral hide shield? All I need is mithral access right? I don't have the book in front of me, but does the description specify hide.
:rofl:

-Swiftbrook
Jesse Heinig
05-15-07, 01:15 PM The text of shield specialization says "Choose one type of shield from the following list: buckler, heavy, or light." Since the hide shield is none of these, by RAW you cannot use shield specialization with it.

Alright, that sounds fair enough. I guess my second question about what type of shield it counts as still holds. Can I gain the benefit of using shield specialization using this shield? I'd really like to pick up the shield ward feat at some point, but don't want to waste the shield specialization.
Lightblade
05-15-07, 02:10 PM No, a hide shield is not a light shield, so a warmage couldn't ignore ASF.

No, you couldn't make a hide shield out of mithral, since it is specifically not made out of metal.
Ramacass
05-16-07, 07:24 AM So what do you figure the hardness and hit points of a hide sheild are?
clannagh
05-21-07, 02:44 AM So what do you figure the hardness and hit points of a hide sheild are?

"This tall, oval shield is made of animal hide stretched tightly over a wood or bone framework and reinforced with strips of hide"

Hard to say. it could be very flimsy or if its doped and tensioned like a biplane aircraft wing it could actually be pretty sturdy.
Timlagor
05-21-07, 08:30 AM At +3 AC it's obviously not flimsy.
Madfox11
05-21-07, 09:02 AM Well... shields do operate on the idea of deflecting a blow by shifting its direction not by a direct hit.

In any event, looking at the proper tables in the SRD we see that hide has a hardness of 2 and half the hit points of wood. So by the RAW a hide shield has hardness 2 and 10 hit points (and that is being generous since I doubt a hide shield is as thick a wooden shield). Of course, by the RAW the hide shield is neither a light, nor a heavy, nor a tower shield, and hence no character would have proficiency. To me it looks a bit like one of those gray areas where you as a player and a DM need to be really careful. I admit though not having my books at hand and just going by what is posted in this thread.
Timlagor
05-21-07, 07:11 PM Many classes get proficiency with "all shields except tower shields" -or words to that effect.
bitznarf
05-22-07, 05:31 PM Shield Proficiency would be what is needed I think, anything else gives proficiency to what is said and nothing else, like elves get proficiency with the longsword and longbow and so on. So the question is "is it a tower shield or an exotic shield?" If the answer to this is 'yes' in either case, it requires the appropriate feat. If the answer is 'no' then the basic Shield Proficiency covers it.
solbergb
05-23-07, 02:58 PM Yeah, my barbarian/beguiler is going to use a hide shield as a stopgap when he's in "turtle" mode until he can afford his heavy armor+tower shield (arriving at a similar time to his fighter level.

It's a nice item. It was also historically much more popular than the D&D-style tower shield - it was used extensively in the ancient world before bows got sufficient penetration to defeat it. It's also closer in concept to the greek shields used in phalanx fighting, although those are really somewhere between heavy shield and tower shield.

There isn't anything in D&D to cover a shield that can be worn with greaves, helmet, bracers and pretty much no body protection. Although the greeks did later add body armor to the mix once they got more professional - Alexander's hoplites used both the big shield and a breastplate-like thing in addition to the greaves and helmet.

Nobody in real life used 50lb wood portable walls as a normal melee tool or even in formation fighting. That's too heavy for armies to move around and march with - it's seige equipment.

In real life though, we didn't have dragons and other things that might encourage development of such an item. *shrug*
Ramacass
05-24-07, 03:40 AM Well... shields do operate on the idea of deflecting a blow by shifting its direction not by a direct hit.

In any event, looking at the proper tables in the SRD we see that hide has a hardness of 2 and half the hit points of wood. So by the RAW a hide shield has hardness 2 and 10 hit points (and that is being generous since I doubt a hide shield is as thick a wooden shield). Of course, by the RAW the hide shield is neither a light, nor a heavy, nor a tower shield, and hence no character would have proficiency. To me it looks a bit like one of those gray areas where you as a player and a DM need to be really careful. I admit though not having my books at hand and just going by what is posted in this thread.

In it's description is says it's hide pulled over a wooden or bone frame. Thus it's a "hide shield" but is actually made of wood/bone and hide so I doubt it would have the same hit points a a big flap of hide. I'd say somewhere in between wood and hide like hardness 3 and 15 hp but that's just my impression. I guess there's nothing official so it would be different at every table. :(
solbergb
05-24-07, 11:21 AM I'd say hardness 2 and hitpoints 10 is about right. Most of the area is in fact cured leather - the frame by itself won't give much protection. You could drive a javelin right through those shields if you were strong enough, but in D&D that's just "defeating the +3 armor bonus". They took a couple three solid swings with an axe to destroy.
chesspiece
05-24-07, 04:55 PM I wouldn't increase it above hardness 2 and hitpoints 10. It seems to be assumed that the attacker goes for the weak point (hide). For example, axes have hardness & HPs based on their wooden haft rather than their metal head.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#tableObjectHardnessAndHi tPoints

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Koradril 05-15-07, 03:09 AM	I've just recently noticed that the hide shield from Sandstorm is open access. I'm curious as to what type of shield this is, as it is not specified. Is it considered a medium, heavy, tower, or exotic shield? Can my cleric use it without any special feats?
JJeff 05-15-07, 05:49 AM	I believe it is considered a Tower Shield since it keeps getting compared to one in the text
Ramacass 05-15-07, 08:15 AM	It seems to me that it could be used by any character who was proficient "with all shields (except tower shields)" as it is not specified otherwise and there is no hide shield proficiency- unlike extreme sheilds etc.
kjenks 05-15-07, 09:13 AM	Ramacass is correct. Your cleric can use one. (Mine does.) This is a really nice shield. It's kinda like a tower shield, only better in several ways. The hide shield penalty is only -1 on attacks, not the -2 penalty from a tower shield. Since it's just a regular old shield, no extra feat is required for proficiency. You can take full cover with a hide shield, presumably using the FAQ rules for tower shields. My fighter/druid bought one from AR access. It significantly changed the first round of two combats in his next adventure, completely negating attacks that could have been quite painful.
kjenks 05-15-07, 09:15 AM	Hide shield. Sandstorm, page 99. No special proficiency required. Cost 50 gp. Shield bonus +3. Maximum dex bonus +4. Armor Check penalty -3. Arcane Spell Failure 30%. Weight 30 lb. Provides "cover as a tower shield does. By giving up your attacks for the round, you gain total cover. The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can target the shield. Since it is made of lighter material than a tower shield, you only take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while wielding a hide shield in combat. You cannot bash with a hide shield, nor can you use your shield hand for anything else."
JJeff 05-15-07, 12:49 PM	Ok, I assume I'm wrong then. Does that mean characters that are proficient in only light shields like a warmage can use this? Can a Warmage ignore ASF while using this shield?
Koradril 05-15-07, 01:02 PM	Alright, that sounds fair enough. I guess my second question about what type of shield it counts as still holds. Can I gain the benefit of using shield specialization using this shield? I'd really like to pick up the shield ward feat at some point, but don't want to waste the shield specialization.
Swiftbrook 05-15-07, 01:13 PM	(broken rules idea here) So how about a mithral hide shield? All I need is mithral access right? I don't have the book in front of me, but does the description specify hide. :rofl: -Swiftbrook
Jesse Heinig 05-15-07, 01:15 PM	The text of shield specialization says "Choose one type of shield from the following list: buckler, heavy, or light." Since the hide shield is none of these, by RAW you cannot use shield specialization with it. Alright, that sounds fair enough. I guess my second question about what type of shield it counts as still holds. Can I gain the benefit of using shield specialization using this shield? I'd really like to pick up the shield ward feat at some point, but don't want to waste the shield specialization.
Lightblade 05-15-07, 02:10 PM	No, a hide shield is not a light shield, so a warmage couldn't ignore ASF. No, you couldn't make a hide shield out of mithral, since it is specifically not made out of metal.
Ramacass 05-16-07, 07:24 AM	So what do you figure the hardness and hit points of a hide sheild are?
clannagh 05-21-07, 02:44 AM	So what do you figure the hardness and hit points of a hide sheild are? "This tall, oval shield is made of animal hide stretched tightly over a wood or bone framework and reinforced with strips of hide" Hard to say. it could be very flimsy or if its doped and tensioned like a biplane aircraft wing it could actually be pretty sturdy.
Timlagor 05-21-07, 08:30 AM	At +3 AC it's obviously not flimsy.
Madfox11 05-21-07, 09:02 AM	Well... shields do operate on the idea of deflecting a blow by shifting its direction not by a direct hit. In any event, looking at the proper tables in the SRD we see that hide has a hardness of 2 and half the hit points of wood. So by the RAW a hide shield has hardness 2 and 10 hit points (and that is being generous since I doubt a hide shield is as thick a wooden shield). Of course, by the RAW the hide shield is neither a light, nor a heavy, nor a tower shield, and hence no character would have proficiency. To me it looks a bit like one of those gray areas where you as a player and a DM need to be really careful. I admit though not having my books at hand and just going by what is posted in this thread.
Timlagor 05-21-07, 07:11 PM	Many classes get proficiency with "all shields except tower shields" -or words to that effect.
bitznarf 05-22-07, 05:31 PM	Shield Proficiency would be what is needed I think, anything else gives proficiency to what is said and nothing else, like elves get proficiency with the longsword and longbow and so on. So the question is "is it a tower shield or an exotic shield?" If the answer to this is 'yes' in either case, it requires the appropriate feat. If the answer is 'no' then the basic Shield Proficiency covers it.
solbergb 05-23-07, 02:58 PM	Yeah, my barbarian/beguiler is going to use a hide shield as a stopgap when he's in "turtle" mode until he can afford his heavy armor+tower shield (arriving at a similar time to his fighter level. It's a nice item. It was also historically much more popular than the D&D-style tower shield - it was used extensively in the ancient world before bows got sufficient penetration to defeat it. It's also closer in concept to the greek shields used in phalanx fighting, although those are really somewhere between heavy shield and tower shield. There isn't anything in D&D to cover a shield that can be worn with greaves, helmet, bracers and pretty much no body protection. Although the greeks did later add body armor to the mix once they got more professional - Alexander's hoplites used both the big shield and a breastplate-like thing in addition to the greaves and helmet. Nobody in real life used 50lb wood portable walls as a normal melee tool or even in formation fighting. That's too heavy for armies to move around and march with - it's seige equipment. In real life though, we didn't have dragons and other things that might encourage development of such an item. shrug
Ramacass 05-24-07, 03:40 AM	Well... shields do operate on the idea of deflecting a blow by shifting its direction not by a direct hit. In any event, looking at the proper tables in the SRD we see that hide has a hardness of 2 and half the hit points of wood. So by the RAW a hide shield has hardness 2 and 10 hit points (and that is being generous since I doubt a hide shield is as thick a wooden shield). Of course, by the RAW the hide shield is neither a light, nor a heavy, nor a tower shield, and hence no character would have proficiency. To me it looks a bit like one of those gray areas where you as a player and a DM need to be really careful. I admit though not having my books at hand and just going by what is posted in this thread. In it's description is says it's hide pulled over a wooden or bone frame. Thus it's a "hide shield" but is actually made of wood/bone and hide so I doubt it would have the same hit points a a big flap of hide. I'd say somewhere in between wood and hide like hardness 3 and 15 hp but that's just my impression. I guess there's nothing official so it would be different at every table. :(
solbergb 05-24-07, 11:21 AM	I'd say hardness 2 and hitpoints 10 is about right. Most of the area is in fact cured leather - the frame by itself won't give much protection. You could drive a javelin right through those shields if you were strong enough, but in D&D that's just "defeating the +3 armor bonus". They took a couple three solid swings with an axe to destroy.
chesspiece 05-24-07, 04:55 PM	I wouldn't increase it above hardness 2 and hitpoints 10. It seems to be assumed that the attacker goes for the weak point (hide). For example, axes have hardness & HPs based on their wooden haft rather than their metal head. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#tableObjectHardnessAndHi tPoints