Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ramacass 10-20-06, 09:41 PM	I'm working on my spiked chain fighter based in brightsands. He's a gruff uncultured goon who speaks like a sterotypical trucker. He looks down on all the brightsand natives as savages and walks around cursing the the heat, the desert and himself for ever coming to this cursed place. He decided to come to brightlands one day while drunk out of his mind because he heard there was hidden treasure there and was hoping to see "some dem belly dancin' chicks" However despite his gruff exterior he's really just a big momma's boy, as he truly is a guy only a mother could love. As his character develops he will find himself doing things to help people without promise of money however his tuff-guy image will prevent him from showing he cares openly. Now for the nuts and bolts. Race:human class: fighter Stats str: 16 dex: 14 con: 13 int: 13 wis: 10 Cha: 8 feats: 1 exotic pro:spiked chain, combat expertise, improved trip 2 combat reflexes 3 Scorpions resolve(+4 on saves vrs mind effecting spells or efects) 4 deft opportunist 5 bupkis 6 weapon focus: spiked chain, power attack 7+ i'll take levels in exotic weapon master to get even better at my spiked chain. This is my first fighter build, any suggestions, obvious feats or multiclass builds I'm overlooking, I chose scorpions resolve because all my combat prowis doesn't help if i'm charmed or held or scared out of my wits running in the opposite direction. on a side note -wow, spiked chain and improved trip rocks.
Puggle Halfwine 10-21-06, 01:48 AM	Don't use a spiked chain. It's an extremely stupid weapon which should be removed from the game. Bad! Bad munchkin!
Lupo 10-21-06, 03:39 AM	I'm working on my spiked chain fighter based in brightsands. He's a gruff uncultured goon who speaks like a sterotypical trucker. He looks down on all the brightsand natives as savages and walks around cursing the the heat, the desert and himself for ever coming to this cursed place. He decided to come to brightlands one day while drunk out of his mind because he heard there was hidden treasure there and was hoping to see "some dem belly dancin' chicks" However despite his gruff exterior he's really just a big momma's boy, as he truly is a guy only a mother could love. As his character develops he will find himself doing things to help people without promise of money however his tuff-guy image will prevent him from showing he cares openly. Now for the nuts and bolts. Race:human class: fighter Stats str: 16 dex: 14 con: 13 int: 13 wis: 10 Cha: 8 feats: 1 exotic pro:spiked chain, combat expertise, improved trip 2 combat reflexes 3 Scorpions resolve(+4 on saves vrs mind effecting spells or efects) 4 deft opportunist 5 bupkis 6 weapon focus: spiked chain, power attack 7+ i'll take levels in exotic weapon master to get even better at my spiked chain. This is my first fighter build, any suggestions, obvious feats or multiclass builds I'm overlooking, I chose scorpions resolve because all my combat prowis doesn't help if i'm charmed or held or scared out of my wits running in the opposite direction. on a side note -wow, spiked chain and improved trip rocks. postpone "scorpions resolve", you need "power attack" somewhere a little earlier, you just declare a "power attack" before your trip, you only need to succeed with a touch attack. and get a+4 versus the prone foe afterwards. trip works best from APL 2 over APL 4 (where it tends to be devasting, as you are more or less guaranteed to make the touch attack) till APL 8 (still usefull) afterwards foes tend to be a little more stable on their feets. your build is a lttle low on the damage output side, you should keep an eve on this. otherwise a fair build, have fun :), be sure to have some replacement weapons, and bring along a longbow appropriate for your strength, just as a backup, for those cases when the foes don't cooperate and come near/down to your fighter. yes, it is a little munchkin trap, but as a fighter you get the number of feats to go for it ;) ciao martin m.
Ramacass 10-21-06, 08:15 AM	QUOTE]postpone "scorpions resolve", you need "power attack" somewhere a little earlier, you just declare a "power attack" before your trip, you only need to succeed with a touch attack. and get a+4 versus the prone foe afterwards.[/QUOTE] I thought of that but I plan to use combat expertise rather than just write it off as a waster for improved trip. I agree I'd love to have power attack sooner and might go ahead and go with your suggestion. Put my initial thought was at level 6 I couldn't improve my combat expertise any more so I could throw in a little power attack. trip works best from APL 2 over APL 4 (where it tends to be devasting, as you are more or less guaranteed to make the touch attack) till APL 8 (still usefull) afterwards foes tend to be a little more stable on their feets. your build is a lttle low on the damage output side, you should keep an eve on this. How do think it's a little low on the damage output?- is it because of no weapon specilization? Any suggestions to increase the damage output? otherwise a fair build, have fun :), be sure to have some replacement weapons, and bring along a longbow appropriate for your strength, just as a backup, for those cases when the foes don't cooperate and come near/down to your fighter. Yeah I have a backup spiked chain and I'll take your advice on the longbow yes, it is a little munchkin trap, but as a fighter you get the number of feats to go for it ;) Munchkin huh ;-) Like I said this is my first fighter build but I've seen at least dozen fighters played and haven't been impressed. Far from being munchkiny I think the spiked chain is the only thing making the fighter a viable combat option, with the exception of the archer build. Just my 2cp RC
clannagh 10-21-06, 08:42 PM	I do not see spiked chain as particulary overpowered given how many feats it burns up to use one effectively. What it does do is change a fighter build from a straight damage producer/absorber into something a bit more tactical. It also however tends to annoy certain non-tactical GM's (we have a few locally) who can't think around ways to counter anything unusual and will sometimes instead simply gang up on your PC every encounter to "teach you a lesson" about building "proper" characters :) Just avoid those GM's. Of course even a martial arts expert couldn't use a chain in "real life" the way it behaves in the game .. but since when did D&D weaponry ever more than vaguely resemble its real life counterpart anyway? Ever heard of anyone tripping with a bow? Or swinging so hard they slice through 4 or 5 opponents one after the other ? Or a bow that turns into a quarter staff ? Anyway ... If you can manage to take improved disarm at some point it really improves your tactical options. An improved disarm spiked chain fighter (+4 disarm feat +4 DH weapon +2 chain = BAB+STR+10 to disarm opposed rolls) can be a party saver against the occasional party killing monster with the vorpal sword of uber-choppiness. Also given that, even with combat reflexes, you only get one attack of opportunity per attacker ... a pretty much guaranteed disarm which leaves their weapon one square back versus a possible trip against an incoming nasty with a big crit weapon can be a good tactical choice. How to improve damage ? - Firstly spend some money. Strength gloves will take your strength to an even modifier and hence add 2 damage (double handed) and then a +1 chain for 2000gc will add another +1 for a total of +3 damage per hit. Buying a chain with extra damage (flaming frost etc etc) can be nice of course for later on. - Power attack of course is essential. - Raging generally isnt really a good way to go with a spiked chain so I would forget barbarian. - Your INT is lowish so 3 levels swashbuckler to add INT to damage is not going to be all that effective. Swashbuckler is more suitable if you were able to effectively use the free weapon finess of the class. Also .. you are not an elf so you cant add DEX to damage with the Corellan Champion PrC and I suspect it doesnt work with the spiked chain anyway. Exotic Weapon Master flurry of blows spiked chain will help you by picking up an extra attack. Given your reach, cleave and improved cleave can work well. A level of scout would give you D6 skirmish damage on those turns you move around and hit from a distance (at the cost of 1 BAB). A viable option is a level of rogue wich lets you use the spiked chains reach to flank opponents and do D6 per attack extra sneak damage. A level of ranger will give you +2 favored enemy damage to one monster type (popular favored enemy choices for humans are animals or undead) Its hard to get enough feats with a spiked chain to get there but a spiked chain with whirlwind attack can be devastating. One effective way of getting weapon specialisation cheaply is to take levels of pious templar but it doesnt fit that well with your build. The important thing with spiked chain fighters is they should be fun .. they have all the makings of a very characterful roleplay character that is also tactical and effective in combat. Carry around a copy of the FAQ on AoO as you will be surprised how many GM's are hazy on the rules and will insist on sillyness like "you cannot disarm or trip as an attack of opportunity" until you show them otherwise.
Ramacass 10-21-06, 10:59 PM	If you can manage to take improved disarm at some point it really improves your tactical options. An improved disarm spiked chain fighter (+4 disarm feat +4 DH weapon +2 chain = BAB+STR+10 to disarm opposed rolls) can be a party saver against the occasional party killing monster with the vorpal sword of uber-choppiness. Also given that, even with combat reflexes, you only get one attack of opportunity per attacker ... a pretty much guaranteed disarm which leaves their weapon one square back versus a possible trip against an incoming nasty with a big crit weapon can be a good tactical choice. I thought about improved disarm but in effect it only gives me a plus 4 to the attempt because the lack of AoO doesn't really help due to the fact I'll be disarming them from 10 feet so they can't AoO me anyway. +4 is decent but i'd rather take deft opportunist which gives me a +4 on all AoO including ones to disarm. How would improved disarm work against a prone foe? Would you get a +4 on your attack role due to the fact that your opponent was prone and thus a +4 on your disarm attempt. Would your opponet get a -4 because he is prone? Would your opponent draw an AoO when trying to grab his weapon after you disarm him despite the fact that the weapon is on the ground right next to him? How to improve damage ? - Firstly spend some money. Strength gloves will take your strength to an even modifier and hence add 2 damage (double handed) and then a +1 chain for 2000gc will add another +1 for a total of +3 damage per hit. Buying a chain with extra damage (flaming frost etc etc) can be nice of course for later on. Believe me gauntlets are way up there on my to buy list Given your reach, cleave and improved cleave can work well. Good point A level of ranger will give you +2 favored enemy damage to one monster type (popular favored enemy choices for humans are animals or undead) Why not choose Human? thanks for the feed back
clannagh 10-22-06, 12:24 AM	I thought about improved disarm but in effect it only gives me a plus 4 to the attempt because the lack of AoO doesn't really help due to the fact I'll be disarming them from 10 feet so they can't AoO me anyway. +4 is decent but i'd rather take deft opportunist which gives me a +4 on all AoO including ones to disarm. Some people argue that he still gets an opportunity to disarm you without the feat. Its debatable though. How would improved disarm work against a prone foe? Would you get a +4 on your attack role due to the fact that your opponent was prone and thus a +4 on your disarm attempt. Would your opponet get a -4 because he is prone? Would your opponent draw an AoO when trying to grab his weapon after you disarm him despite the fact that the weapon is on the ground right next to him? A disarm is just a variant melee attack so all normal modifiers should apply including +4 if they are prone. Pick up an item draws an attack of opportunity it doesnt matter where it is. Why not choose Human? PHB races cannot choose there own race as favored enemy. I am not sure how this works in LG where humans have subraces like suel/oeridian etc etc
copper_wyrmling 10-22-06, 12:45 AM	PHB races cannot choose there own race as favored enemy. I am not sure how this works in LG where humans have subraces like suel/oeridian etc etc Can you provide a rules quote for that? I'm pretty sure there is none, at least in 3.5.
Arvagor 10-22-06, 01:42 AM	PHB races cannot choose there own race as favored enemy. I am not sure how this works in LG where humans have subraces like suel/oeridian etc etcThere is no such rule; I've had people tell me it existed in 3.0, but as I never played under that edition, I can't answer that question. The only restrictions on the favored enemy race is that it must appear in PHB table 3-14, and that if the ranger chooses humanoids or outsiders as a favored enemy, he must also choose an associated subtype, as indicated on the table.
Iswald 10-22-06, 02:42 AM	A disarm is just a variant melee attack so all normal modifiers should apply including +4 if they are prone. Prone character have -4 to AC. The attackers are not getting +4 to hit (a common mistake). So, you should not get a bonus here. PHB races cannot choose there own race as favored enemy. I am not sure how this works in LG where humans have subraces like suel/oeridian etc etc In 3.0, you couldn't choose your own race as a favored enemy unless your character was evil. This was dropped in 3.5.
clannagh 10-22-06, 03:47 AM	Prone character have -4 to AC. The attackers are not getting +4 to hit (a common mistake). So, you should not get a bonus here. Fair enough .. But what about the -4 to attack rolls if prone, wouldn't the prone defender suffer that penalty on the opposed disarm rolls ? In 3.0, you couldn't choose your own race as a favored enemy unless your character was evil. This was dropped in 3.5. I had not relaised htat it had changed .... in which case human is the obvious choice for first favored enemy.
Iswald 10-22-06, 08:01 AM	But what about the -4 to attack rolls if prone, wouldn't the prone defender suffer that penalty on the opposed disarm rolls ? Yes.
zoinks69 10-22-06, 04:24 PM	If you want to be a tripper (even if it's just for those first few levels), you should consider a level of Barbarian (extra fort and rage). 4 levels of Fighter for the feats. Extra Rage and Reckless Rage at 3 and 6. Exotic Weapon Master for all 3 levels since Chain is one of the few weapons that has 3 useful tricks (uncanny blow, flurry, trip). Top it off with some Pious Templar of Tsolo-weneededanexcusetogetfavoredweaponspiked chaininthegame. Some issues -- Expertise and Rage don't mix so it's a huge sacrifice of feats to be a decent tripper, but the backup of raging and power attacking for decent damage is OK. Personally I'd give up being a tripper as once you hit ~apl 8 you won't have much opportunity to use it and those feats/levels will be somewhat wasted.
Lupo 10-22-06, 06:44 PM	<snip> Some issues -- Expertise and Rage don't mix so it's a huge sacrifice of feats to be a decent tripper, but the backup of raging and power attacking for decent damage is OK. Personally I'd give up being a tripper as once you hit ~apl 8 you won't have much opportunity to use it and those feats/levels will be somewhat wasted. you still can use it from time to time at APL 8 and above, you just have to be sure to be enlarged when needed, buy some potions of enlarge as backups. and make sure to konw when to use the triop attack and when to rely just on as much brutal force as you can pull together. ciao martin m.
ezreal2001 10-22-06, 07:05 PM	Don't use a spiked chain. It's an extremely stupid weapon which should be removed from the game. Bad! Bad munchkin! You're only saying that because the way Ruth's HalfOrc krulled the Faine of the Drow. PS speaking of things munchy have you given any thought to adding a Forest Warden shroud the barding on Puggle's dog?
Puggle Halfwine 10-22-06, 11:45 PM	You're only saying that because the way Ruth's HalfOrc krulled the Faine of the Drow. Yes. That's exactly why I'm saying it. That and the many ways it doesn't even make sense, is massively unbalanced and there is almost no fighter/fightertype build in existance for which you're better off not using it. PS speaking of things munchy have you given any thought to adding a Forest Warden shroud the barding on Puggle's dog? No, because I don't know what that is. Otherwise, I'll definately consider it. What book is it from?
ezreal2001 10-22-06, 11:59 PM	Yes. That's exactly why I'm saying it. That and the many ways it doesn't even make sense, is massively unbalanced and there is almost no fighter/fightertype build in existance for which you're better off not using it. Umm, What about the Sundering Change/Momentum Swing combo from Combat Brute? No, because I don't know what that is. Otherwise, I'll definately consider it. What book is it from? Races of the Wild. Need to just confirm it removes the movement penalties associated with light undergrowth in addition to the DC penalities to tumble and move silently
Lomiat 10-23-06, 12:12 AM	Yes. That's exactly why I'm saying it. That and the many ways it doesn't even make sense, is massively unbalanced and there is almost no fighter/fightertype build in existance for which you're better off not using it. I agree that spiked chains are massively unbalanced. No other weapon automatically threatens adjacent squares and a 10-foot reach. That's the problem. Take one feat to get that? Sure, why not? The problem is, then, that the rest of the build tends to build itself: Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, etc. You don't need Combat Expertise and Improved Trip, but when you consider that by 7th level, Exotic Weapon Master is going to give you +2 to your Trip attempts, of course you're going to get it. There are *almost* no fighter-types that can compete with a spiked chain tripper builds, but there are a few: Wildrunner/ShockTrooper, Champion of Corellon Larethian Rgr/Ftr/Swa/Wildrunner, Dervish, and Deepwarden/Dwarf tank come to mind (and once in every 5 or 6 mods, the mounted combat dude). Nonetheless, if you want to make a tactical fighter, the problem seems to be that the spiked chain is such a brain dead option--so completely better than every other remotely comparable weapon--that most "flavor" is completely ruled out. And it's such a stupid weapon for the game (typically a medieval flavor PLUS SPIKED CHAINS everywhere!!!) when you think about comparing it to swords and hammers and such. When's the last time you saw a hammer fighter? But the spiked chain fighters are everywhere. I think I've stared down about 6 of them in my last 10 mods... and those were just the NPCs. There were probably about the same number of PCs with spiked chains at the tables (well, not exactly at my tables, but that's because I had a tripper with a subpar weapon). So, at any rate... I completely concur with Puggle's complaint. Imagine if WotC had decided to make the Gnome Hookthingy the Ultimate Weapon; it would be just as silly. Here, though, it's the spiked chain.
copper_wyrmling 10-23-06, 12:19 AM	Yes. That's exactly why I'm saying it. That and the many ways it doesn't even make sense, is massively unbalanced and there is almost no fighter/fightertype build in existance for which you're better off not using it. Puggle, I've played with spiked-chain-flurrying exotic weapon master barbarians, but the scariest fighter-type I've ever seen was a falchion-wielding dervish in a recent online game at APL 14 (no offence intended to Matherion, Agazul, Ingamaar, Thock the Block, and all the other fighters Yolande has played with). Seriously: his average damage / round seemed to be somewhere in the mid-200s, the lowest AC I saw him hit was somewhere in the mid-30s (and this was online, so all dice rolled in the open, and he wasn't rolling anomalously well), and he could do this in the first round of combat, starting 50ft away from the bad guys. Also, I don't think he took any damage all game. (Yolande notices these things, since she's inevitably the one who has to heal it.) The spiked chain, unlike most other exotic weapons, is worth spending a feat on, and compared to some of the other cheese out there, it's pretty mild. Also, it's just funny to watch someone trying to come up with an RP justification for why their PC serves the God of Wave Motion ;) And... oh yeah, Fane of the Drow. Look, a module full of creatures with Con penalties and a level adjustment is going to be cause for many happy smiles among players of high-Str fighters with cleave, or a reach weapon and combat reflexes, or both. It's like unleashing a grappling monk on the Valley of the Evil Gnomes.
Drezden 10-23-06, 01:03 AM	As a devout power gamer who plays with 2 Spiked Chain fighters I must disagree as much as possible. In the hands of someone who knows what they are doing - like my 2 friends - you do usually wonder why anyone would ever wield another weapon. The Spiked Chain is EXTREMELY cheesy. Yummy. lol BTW - you certaintly don't need Combat Exp. and Improved Trip. with the chain. One of our guys has it, the other is a Barbarian who doesn't. The one feat you do need is Combat Reflexes. At high APLs where Pearl 1s are everwhere and Enlarge Person can be exteded 20+ minutes (i.e. for all Dungeon exploration), things get nasty. The battlefield gets locked down - most monsters have to incur Aoos to get anywhere. 20' reach is amazing. The other essential is Exotic Weapon Master flurry ability. Our Barb. has had 5 attacks since 11th level - and he has Combat Reflexes and Cleave. Just utterly nasty. Daren The spiked chain, unlike most other exotic weapons, is worth spending a feat on, and compared to some of the other cheese out there, it's pretty mild. Also, it's just funny to watch someone trying to come up with an RP justification for why their PC serves the God of Wave Motion ;)
clik_ml 10-23-06, 01:48 AM	The spiked chain is by no means an unfair weapon, but it is a versatile weapon. Having one weapon which can do the job of several weapons really cuts down on the golf-bag of weapons, especially when weapons are so danged expensive these days. Seriously, with a reach weapon (say, guisarme for tripping) and a spiked gauntlet or armor spikes, you have the 5'/10' reach thing covered. The spiked chain is a silly weapon, I'll grant that, but unfair... unbalanced? Hah! It's one of the few weapons that is (in some cases) actually worth spending a precious feat on, and only just. Exotic Weapon Master definitely makes Spiked Chains much more attractive with flurrying... the +2 trip bonus is just okay. It's not rock this world awesome, but there are a limited amount of ways to bump up that trip check, so every little bit helps. Melee builds that consistently deal 200+ damage a round are not terribly uncommon, and it is not unknown to double or even nearly triple that count (I've heard of it done by both cavalry and MoMFs). When doing so, the spiked chain is actually rarely the weapon of choice, since it is more of a utility weapon than a massive damage weapon. Lances (which for my cavalry comes up in at least 5 out of 6 combats, not 1 out of 6) and one handed exotic weapons can be scary damage machines in the right hands. Now, a small sized spiked chain is one handed for a medium sized character, and that would allow a third layer of extra EWMaster cheese, if I recall the wording right. I haven't seen that anywhere... yet. The only reason I consider spiked chains as a choice even is because weapons are so frickin expensive, and it just makes more sense to have one weapon that fufills all melee combat functions than having 2 or 3 or 4. That, and EWMaster's Flurry is the bee's knees (thus making the EWMaster the unbalancer, not the weapon itself).
copper_wyrmling 10-23-06, 01:49 AM	BTW - you certaintly don't need Combat Exp. and Improved Trip. with the chain. One of our guys has it, the other is a Barbarian who doesn't. The one feat you do need is Combat Reflexes. At high APLs where Pearl 1s are everwhere and Enlarge Person can be exteded 20+ minutes (i.e. for all Dungeon exploration), things get nasty. The battlefield gets locked down - most monsters have to incur Aoos to get anywhere. 20' reach is amazing. The other essential is Exotic Weapon Master flurry ability. Our Barb. has had 5 attacks since 11th level - and he has Combat Reflexes and Cleave. Just utterly nasty. Sounds like one of the fighters I know, a starting-Strength-20 half-orc barbarian with the exotic weapon master flurry of strikes, who almost always travels with a high-level wizard. I still think that dervish was scarier ;) To be clear, I'm not saying that the flurrying spiked-chain exotic weapon master battlefield controller is underpowered in any way (it's not!) just that it's not the only way to build a powerful fighter, and it doesn't crowd out other character options to the degree claimed. (I assume you mean five attacks with Haste / Boots of Speed, right?)
Maesto 10-23-06, 05:47 AM	Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the dervish ~level 15, along with a bard/warchanter cohort? A level of scout combined with +3 bardsong and inspire recklessness very quickly adds a lot of damage, especially when it's relatively reasonable to have Str ~ 24-26 by level 15, so the attack bonus before power attack is going to be around +30, with a +30 bonus to damage before dicerolling and power attack, on likely four attacks. That leaves ~40 damage to come from powerattack, using a falchion, and assuming no criticals or elemental damage dice. Power attacking for 5 will get this by my count, leaving an attack sequence of +25, +25, +20, +15, with only the tertiary attack having a moderate change of missing. The niftiest part of it is the ability to do the whole lot while moving, and with boots of speed + dervish bonuses, that's getting close to a 100 ft move, especially if there's a barbarian level in there too, which essentially means that you only cop a single attack against your reduced AC. A fighter + spiked chain will easily get the same damage output, more if backed up with a warchanter, with the only difference being the inability to do the lot on a full move. Then again, that's why you're enlarged, have shocktrooper, hold the line, and steadfast boots. Anybody want to come and have a go at my AC of an all-time low? As for Ruth's 1/2-orc + spiked chain, the sweet spot in the build is at about level 9, possibly 12. Build is 1 barb/6 ftr so far, with ewp, power attack, cleave, combat reflexes, weapon focus, extra rage, reckless rage, and steadfast boots of brokenness. Next two levels are EWM for the flurry and another barbarian for uncanny dodge. Upcoming feats are hold the line, improved bullrush and shocktrooper, and possibly weapon spec, although it really isn't necessary - base damage before powerattack is in the high teens. Also, destructive rage, just because it's fun =) Item wise, whatever the item that grants +2 to damage when powerattacking for 2 or more (name gone from my head) would be great, and strength boosting items are needed. Yes, it can pump out the damage, especially up to APL 6, when most things just don't have that many hitpoints. However, the character has trouble contributing to almost any other aspect of game play, except for breaking things. Jolyon
Lupo 10-23-06, 08:00 AM	Yes. That's exactly why I'm saying it. That and the many ways it doesn't even make sense, is massively unbalanced and there is almost no fighter/fightertype build in existance for which you're better off not using it. ok, my cleric's cohort IS a spiked chain MUTT, and the dakon gets along quite well with the APL. my two fighter character builds are NOT using spiked chains, ok, they are not yet so far up in level, but the one is a combination of short-spear fighter master thrower, the other is a wood-elf ranger going for wildrunner's pounce. the scariest damage dealers i have seen so far are some dwarven fighter/barbarian/deepwarden builds and some chargers. the problem with the spiked chain monkeys is the number of foes/monsters that can't be tripped due to varios reasons at APL 10 and above. the last few modules i have seen at APL 10 (not necessaryly played that APL myself): huge golems, huge earth elementals, large air elementals, gargantuan oozes (damage reduction piercing), huge zombie mobs, huge oozes that destroy weapons on contact (my cohort went through a golfbag of weapons in that encounter, damage reduction piercing again), huge behir with a template, a huge dragon, huge plant creature, huge mammuthlike creatures, beholder, large and huge spider creatures. the moment the critters are one size category larger than even the enlarged chain monkey and sport some four or more legs, all the precious feats of the trip build are negated as the strength of those creatures tend to be in the mid 30ies as well. the best times for a trip build are modules from APL 2 to APL 6 maybe 8, afterwards he falls behind the figther types that went for most massive damage, at least the trip build isn't falling behind so terribly that it becomes useless. ciao martin m.
Iswald 10-23-06, 09:53 AM	Now, a small sized spiked chain is one handed for a medium sized character, and that would allow a third layer of extra EWMaster cheese, if I recall the wording right. I haven't seen that anywhere... yet. I'm not sure what you mean by this, but it probably wouldn't work. The flurry of strikes stunt only works if you are wielding it two handed. They wouldn't be light weapons, so you couldn't use it with the twin exotic weapon fighting stunt. Perhaps you could use it to TWF and make more attacks.
GreySector 10-23-06, 02:42 PM	The niftiest part of it is the ability to do the whole lot while moving, and with boots of speed + dervish bonuses, that's getting close to a 100 ft move, Jolyon The movement bonuses from the dervish class and boots of speed (as well as from monk and scout) are enhancement bonuses, so don't stack.
clik_ml 10-23-06, 03:28 PM	I'm not sure what you mean by this, but it probably wouldn't work. The flurry of strikes stunt only works if you are wielding it two handed. They wouldn't be light weapons, so you couldn't use it with the twin exotic weapon fighting stunt. Perhaps you could use it to TWF and make more attacks. Sorry, the intention was for applying uncanny blow (in addition to the flurry and the trip tricks) to a spiked chain, where you wield a 1-handed exotic weapon with 2 hands, and get 2*str damage. The payoff requires a *really* high strength of course, since you take -2 to hit, and the weapon damage is 3.5 instead of 5. Making up a difference of 5 or 6 damage between 1.5*strength and 2*strength means you have to be packing around 30 strength for it to start to break even. More strength for it to actually be profitable. So it's more of a ridiculous notion than something that will ever see use in the wild (unless you play with high level centaurs, or folks who get enlarged-polymorphed at high levels).
Drezden 10-23-06, 03:33 PM	Yes, that is what I meant - 3 attacks + 1 flurry + 1 Boots of speed. Boots of Speed are almost required equipment at APL12+. I think they should be a priority purchase for any combat (i.e. non-spellcasting focused) character. I think my BDF got them by 8th level. Daren (I assume you mean five attacks with Haste / Boots of Speed, right?)
Gelth 10-23-06, 04:06 PM	Now, a small sized spiked chain is one handed for a medium sized character, and that would allow a third layer of extra EWMaster cheese, if I recall the wording right. I haven't seen that anywhere... yet. The main issue with this is that if you are wielding a reach weapon that's not appropriately sized for you, it loses the reach ability, thus negating much of the point. --Penn, Ket Triad
clik_ml 10-23-06, 04:53 PM	The main issue with this is that if you are wielding a reach weapon that's not appropriately sized for you, it loses the reach ability, thus negating much of the point. Is that in the FAQ? I sure didn't see in anywhere in the weapons section. The closest I find is "A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away"... and that doesn't equate to saying that inappropriately sized weapons do not grant reach at all. Stripping inappropriately sized weapons of reach willy-nilly doesn't make any sense either. A small spiked chain gives reach to a halfling, but not to a human? Likewise a medium sized lance gives reach to a human but not to a mounted halfling? A medium whip grants no reach to a halfling? Oy. No, that's too ridiculous for me to accept without a very good cite. I will however grant that my idea of a small sized spiked chain just for using one more exotic weapon master trick is a horrible horrible idea on its own merits, I just found it funny.
Gelth 10-23-06, 05:04 PM	Page 36 of the current FAQ, I just checked. --Penn, Ket Triad
elframrpga 10-23-06, 05:06 PM	Spiked chains are the most hated weapons used by NPCs by role-players. It is just wrong. BTW-What's wrong with truckers? I happen to be one ane consider your lack of respect for the people who bring everything to your local stores( including your FLGS) rather insulting and an attempt to start a flame war!!:mad:
clik_ml 10-23-06, 05:36 PM	Page 36 of the current FAQ, I just checked. --Penn, Ket Triad Wow, right you are. I think the sage was on crack when he wrote that, but there it is as you said. Apologies. I like that a halfling can get reach with a small spiked chain, but if he got enlarged and still had that same small spiked chain (not enlarged for purposes of this example), his longer arms would now be unable to reach with it. *sigh* The sage strikes again!
Arvagor 10-23-06, 06:50 PM	Is that in the FAQ? I sure didn't see in anywhere in the weapons section.Yes. On page 36 of the 10/18/06 version.How do reach weapons work if they are of a different size than the creature wielding them? Say, an ogre wielding a Small or Medium glaive, or a human with the Monkey Grip feat wielding a Large ranseur? What is the reach for each situation? A reach weapon doubles its wielder's natural reach, but only if the weapon is at least of an appropriate size for the wielder. Wielding a "too-small" reach weapon grants no reach. An ogre (Large) wielding a Medium or smaller reach weapon gains no reach from the weapon, and could thus attack foes either 5 feet or 10 feet distant (as normal for a Large creature wielding a non-reach weapon). A human (Medium) wielding a Large or larger reach weapon could attack a creature 10 feet away (but no further), and could not use the weapon to attack a creature 5 feet away (as normal for a Medium creature wielding a reach weapon). A human wielding a Small reach weapon would gain no reach from the weapon. The Player's Handbook isn’t as clear on this as it could be, although an example of reach in action on page 113 in the Player's Handbook provides pretty strong support: "A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away . . ." [italics added]. While this reference doesn't mention the ability to wield a reach weapon larger than the appropriate size, allowing such a weapon to grant reach to its wielder is a reasonable extension of the spirit and intent of the rule.
Arvagor 10-23-06, 06:58 PM	Stripping inappropriately sized weapons of reach willy-nilly doesn't make any sense either.Why not? There are many examples of penalties when you are using an item (and specifically weapons) in a way that they are not designed to be used -- e.g., firing a heavy crossbow one-handed, or using an arrow as a melee weapon. Weapon Finesse disallows use of the feat if the weapon is not made for a creature if your size category. Etc. ...
clannagh 10-23-06, 09:14 PM	Lets put it this way .. what would happen if you let a creature use a smaller reach weapon like a spiked chain and still get reach ? Bear in mind a small double weapon is single handed for a medium creature. You would be meeting spiked chain combat reflex trip/disarm fighters using a small chain with reach and a +1 tower shield. You would also get spiked chain fighters dual weilding small chains using exotic weapon master flurry and improved two weapon fighting for 3 extra attacks with 10' reach at quite low levels :) I think i am happy enough with the rule that prevents small chains having reach.
_m_ 10-24-06, 01:10 AM	As for Ruth's 1/2-orc + spiked chain, the sweet spot in the build is at about level 9, possibly 12. Build is 1 barb/6 ftr so far, with ewp, power attack, cleave, combat reflexes, weapon focus, extra rage, reckless rage, and steadfast boots of brokenness. Next two levels are EWM for the flurry and another barbarian for uncanny dodge. Upcoming feats are hold the line, improved bullrush and shocktrooper, and possibly weapon spec, although it really isn't necessary - base damage before powerattack is in the high teens. Also, destructive rage, just because it's fun =) Item wise, whatever the item that grants +2 to damage when powerattacking for 2 or more (name gone from my head) would be great, and strength boosting items are needed. Yes, it can pump out the damage, especially up to APL 6, when most things just don't have that many hitpoints. However, the character has trouble contributing to almost any other aspect of game play, except for breaking things. Jolyon i played a few games with said chain wielding uuberkiller at 6's and 8's, and i have to say... no1 else really had to do anything. there were a few occasions where we werent in combat that the other party members got to play, but pretty much, combat started, ruth started, combat finished. leading me to the conclusion that long before they finish the enormour pile of feats and abilities they need to be undisputed combat guards, they still pretty much destroy all. that said... it still got 'ported to another plane thanks to a lame will save... so they do have weaknesses after all... /wave @ ruth. [edit: spelling]
clik_ml 10-24-06, 03:27 AM	You would also get spiked chain fighters dual weilding small chains using exotic weapon master flurry ... I think i am happy enough with the rule that prevents small chains having reach. EWM-Flurry requires 2-handed usage, so no TWF there. And small chains aren't prevented from having reach per se, as halflings with spiked chains still have reach. They are only prevented from having reach when your arms are longer. Why not? See my post earlier? It makes no sense other than as a blatant "this is for balance purposes and makes no sense otherwise" ruling. A halfling, who previously had reach, loses reach when his arms get longer. That's retarded. I'm not saying that balance isn't benefitted from humans not being able to TWF with small reach weapons, but it still is awfully silly. I really just intensely hate weapon sizes in 3.5 and this is one of the many reasons.
Arvagor 10-24-06, 12:08 PM	A halfling, who previously had reach, loses reach when his arms get longer.He only loses reach when he drops the chain and picks it back up. If the build is so weak that he can be disarmed of his spiked chain, perhaps the build needs to be rethought...
clannagh 10-25-06, 08:39 PM	I think the main unbalancing factor of a small spiked chain retaining reach would be the ability to use a reach weapon that trips and disarms whilst gaining AC bonus from a shield.
hoosierhayeslpe 11-09-06, 09:28 AM	I will admit that I have the cheesy spiked chain wielding Favored Soul of Tsololandril. Role playing reason? I had 20 minutes to make a character and I watched a Hellraiser movie the night before. Tsololandril is a god of knowledge, and since my character (named Barker) isn't all that smart the only knowledge he can really get an understanding of is pain. So spiked chain, spiked breastplate, and Barker always takes point so he can take the traps in the face and add to his understanding of suffering. As a caster he sticks mostly to summoning and healing, backing up his summons with the spiked chain. Even though Barker's not built as a tank, he consistently puts out more damage per round at level 3 than my level 7 marshal. Easy concept to play, fun concept to role play, especially when we fought a chain devil and Barker thought that he was staring Tsololandril in the face. Love the spiked chain.
_m_ 11-09-06, 10:36 PM	I will admit that I have the cheesy spiked chain wielding Favored Soul of Tsololandril. Role playing reason? I had 20 minutes to make a character and I watched a Hellraiser movie the night before. Tsololandril is a god of knowledge, and since my character (named Barker) isn't all that smart the only knowledge he can really get an understanding of is pain. So spiked chain, spiked breastplate, and Barker always takes point so he can take the traps in the face and add to his understanding of suffering. As a caster he sticks mostly to summoning and healing, backing up his summons with the spiked chain. Even though Barker's not built as a tank, he consistently puts out more damage per round at level 3 than my level 7 marshal. Easy concept to play, fun concept to role play, especially when we fought a chain devil and Barker thought that he was staring Tsololandril in the face. Love the spiked chain. you think you know pain!? list of the top 3 painfull things you havent experienced. number 3: alvin & gem together (picture zagyg worshiping spell throwing +28 to hide in plain sighting crazy midgets running around screaming... in irish) number 2: a gender bending male to female half orc (its EVEN more painfull than it sounds) and coming in at number 1: options 2 and 3 all playing together in 'madhouse'. will save to successfully disbelieve or be driven mad as per insanity. :D
Mithreinmaethor 11-10-06, 04:19 AM	Why not go for a Heavy Flail or a Flail and Shield combo. You can still trip and get the +2 to disarm checks. And you dont have to burn the feat to take the EWP - Spiked Chain. Sure you dont have reach, but when your buddies rush up and block your path that -4 for cover sucks, especially at low level. Hell at 2nd level my Fighter has Combat Ex, Impro Trip and Impr Disarm. Its fun to charge up and trip them then use that attack while they are prone to disarm them. Then its just fun whacking the hell outta them from there. Of course I am from the Dyvers Region and they are real picky about doing lethal damage in their cities. So this arrangement works nicely. Oh sorry and I am a Dwarf also so I get that lovely +4 to resist a trip attempt if for some reason I fail to trip with the flail.
Grantor 11-10-06, 05:54 PM	I'm working on my spiked chain fighter based in brightsands. ...snip... This is my first fighter build, any suggestions, obvious feats or multiclass builds I'm overlooking. My suggestion will sound snooty: this post belongs in the LG Characters sub forum.
budleiser 11-10-06, 07:27 PM	My suggestion will sound snooty: this post belongs in the LG Characters sub forum. MOST posts in the general belong in the 2 sub.