Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PenderGrass 12-08-04, 11:21 AM	In particular, it was an issue of buying stuff - I wanted to buy a 'pumped-up' Potion, which - according to the RPGA/LG Rules - is allowable (Scrolls may not be 'pumped-up' but Potions can be bought this way). It really wasn't worth stopping the game before it even began, but it did bring up an issue of how to go about pointing out slight DM errors without causing a ruckus. After all, it was GenCon SoCal and none of us wanted to ruin anyone's fun - or create an angry DM before we even entered the game proper. One solution was thought of - bring a copy of all the rules and highlight ones that we know that we will be wanting to have some sort of backup on. But, even this seems like it may create some sort of ill-will between the DM and Players. The other solution seems almost the norm - to just let it slide and work around the 'bad call.' Anyone else have any sort of input on this type of situation? ****
smerwin29 12-08-04, 11:47 AM	Most of the judges I have dealt with are relatively reasonable people, and they should be willing to take a couple of minutes at the table to look up, or be shown, an unfamiliar rule. What I do as a judge, when possible, is continue with the game while the player looks up the rule. If he can show me the rule, then great. If not, then I go with my original ruling. This is enough to deal with most questions 99% of the time. Judges should be as familiar with the rules as possible, but players should also be ready to find a rule to help out the judge. If it is a bigger deal, conventions and game days should have a senior DM who is responsible for settling rules disputes. Regards, Shawn
Samwise 12-08-04, 03:38 PM	If it is going to cause ill will when a DM is shown a rule is different from what he thought it was, you are better off discovering it as soon as possible and doing what you can to get a different one. As for me, I would be very pleased if all players brought along copies of the LGCS with rules that particularly affect their characters highlighted. It would allow me to quickly find and confirm anything that I wish to check, and avoid any chance that I might suspect a player of trying to put one over on me. The same if players keep particular unusual rules they use bookmarked for quick reference. The less time I have to spend searching through a rule book, the more time I can spend running the game. To me, that is always a good thing.
Sieylianna 12-08-04, 04:39 PM	Unless things were changed in the latest LGCS (always a possibility), you are supposed to buy things at the end of the module, not the beginning. Ed
PenderGrass 12-08-04, 05:30 PM	Unless things were changed in the latest LGCS (always a possibility), you are supposed to buy things at the end of the module, not the beginning. I thought you could buy stuff at any time during the adventure, provided there is someone/place to buy it from - so long as you mark it off under the same area that accounts for living expenditure, thought it said something like GP Spent during the game. Was the DM wrong by letting us buy some basic potions and 10' poles? ****
King Kashue 12-09-04, 02:34 AM	I thought you could buy stuff at any time during the adventure, provided there is someone/place to buy it from - so long as you mark it off under the same area that accounts for living expenditure, thought it said something like GP Spent during the game. Was the DM wrong by letting us buy some basic potions and 10' poles? **** If suitable opportunity is present (I.e., you're somewhere you can buy the stuff with time enough to get it) you can buy stuff in mod...Whether or not you have that opportunity is up to the DM, but there's nothing that says you can't (and several things that explicitly say you can)...
Sieylianna 12-09-04, 07:57 AM	If suitable opportunity is present (I.e., you're somewhere you can buy the stuff with time enough to get it) you can buy stuff in mod...Whether or not you have that opportunity is up to the DM, but there's nothing that says you can't (and several things that explicitly say you can)... From page 15 of the LGCS, "The paperwork for buying and selling items happens at the end of an adventure". While the judge may allow you to purchase items during a module, he doesn't have to do so. Ed
CruelDM 12-09-04, 08:58 AM	As a side note you cannot buy anything from AR access or meta-group access in the middle of an adventure, these items specificly state that they may be purchased at the end of an adventure played in the region, meta-region, etc.
PenderGrass 12-09-04, 12:56 PM	As a side note you cannot buy anything from AR access or meta-group access in the middle of an adventure, these items specificly state that they may be purchased at the end of an adventure played in the region, meta-region, etc. We have never been given our paperwork (read as "AR") until the end of the scenario, so it has never been a possibility to buy anything from the AR itself. What the DM allowed was a purchase of potions, scrolls and basic dungeon-delving equipment - especially since he told us we were gonna sorely miss having a Rogue for the upcoming game. At APL 2, we weren't much of a threat anyways. So, from what I am understanding - the DM CAN allow adventurers a chance to buy items at the start, during or anywhere in the adventure that he sees fit? So long as there is somewhere to buy from? ****
CruelDM 12-09-04, 01:38 PM	We have never been given our paperwork (read as "AR") until the end of the scenario, so it has never been a possibility to buy anything from the AR itself. I think you misunderstood me. I didnt mean from the AR of the adventure you were playing, I meant off any AR you had in you possession. Otherwise, yes, as long as you arent away from civilization, and can find someone to sell it to you, you can buy any standard items from the PHB, oil, rope etc. The LGCS 3.0 limits the magic items available to you, but if the ones that are available to you are deemed purchasable by the judge, you could also buy these at the start, middle or end of the adventure. I do however, think you are incorrect in the belief that you can access "pumped up" potions without AR access or campaign documentation. I admit I may be wrong about this, but the LGCS gives you specific access to the potions listed on table 7-17 of the DMG with a cost of 750 gp or less. Potions are assumed to have a caster level of the minimum allowed to make the potion. Any caster level above the minimum is not listed on the table of potions you have access to without documentation and, if still allowed, would carry a higher price than the standard potions listed on that table. You might want to check with your Triad to be sure.
King Kashue 12-09-04, 02:58 PM	From page 15 of the LGCS, "The paperwork for buying and selling items happens at the end of an adventure". While the judge may allow you to purchase items during a module, he doesn't have to do so. Ed Yes...Which is why I said "Whether or not you have that opportunity is up to the DM"
PenderGrass 12-09-04, 03:01 PM	According to the LGCS, online version..... Chapter Nine: Living Greyhawk FAQ, Errata & Rules Variants Page 60, under the Q&A Section for 'Item Purchase' it reads as follows: "Q: Can I purchase scrolls and potions from the DMG at a higher caster level than the minimum? A: All scrolls in the DMG are listed at minimum caster level and are bought as such. Potions can be bought at higher caster levels if they are listed on the chart." This should allow anyone to purchase a higher caster level Potion of Cure Light Wounds if they so desired (or virtually any other potion that is allowed to be bought, for that matter). Granted, you may not be able to do this during an adventure, but after the scenario and during the AR/MIL/PC Sheet paperwork aftermath, it should be doable, right? ****
SteveMND 12-09-04, 05:04 PM	No, they mean you can purchase it if the higher-caster level potion itself is listed on the chart.
PenderGrass 12-09-04, 05:21 PM	No, they mean you can purchase it if the higher-caster level potion itself is listed on the chart. Yes, that is what I just got back from the Nyrond Triad - they used Barkskin as an example. Very disappointing. What is the point of buying a Sanctuary Potion or Scroll that have a duration of 1 round? Or any other spell-powered item that has a sucky duration without bumping it beyond the first few levels? Seems kinda insane and not too logical that anyone would even Scribe or Brew such poitions or scrolls..... but, okay.... :confused: ****
Macabail 12-09-04, 06:46 PM	As posted before, if the specific potion (with a specific caster level) doesn't appear on the table in the DMG then you do not have access to purchase it without explicit AR access. Frankly, a Potion of Cure Light Wounds at 5th caster level (250 gp) is probably less use by a whole lot than a Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds. Cheers, James Zwiers Ex-Triad Duchy of Urnst LA - Dev-Team
oroborous 12-10-04, 12:35 AM	Getting back to the subject of correcting a DM. I have a horror story that I've related before, but it bears mentioning again on this thread. A few years back, the RPGA General Rules were not as yet codified in their current form, but there were some rules written down in the RUPs that had similar connotations. One of these was the concept that players actions, either in or out of the game, shouldn’t detract from other players’ experience. At one convention we had sat down to play a mod and we had a table of four, all of us 3rd of 4th level characters. We had gotten about 5 minutes into the module when 2 newbies wanted to jump in. We made the mistake of being cordial and letting them make characters and tag along. They proceeded to spend the next three and a half hours with obnoxious table talk and telling dick and fart jokes while their characters got went to the tavern and got S---faced every time there was a break in the action. This was a bad thing, because we were playing a sneaking mod. The other 4 players made several attempts at pacifying the two who were causing a scene, with no impact on their actions. At a break we asked the judge to bar their characters from returning to the table, siteing the aforementioned rule. He decided to impose negative penalties on their characters for drunkenness and continue the game. At one point in the game, near the denouement, I rose from the table and informed the coordinator of the event, who was a triad member and in the middle of judging another game that I was displeased with the actions of the other two players and that the judge at the table was not taking appropriate action. I also said that if something wasn’t done I would leave the table and remove my name from the scoring sheet. The triad member, to his credit, left his table and insisted that the 2 offending players cease their off-color antics or be removed from the module. He also spoke to the judge out of earshot of the players, but I am told by the triad member himself that he asked our judge why he had allowed the 2 players to continue being rude for so long. This precipitated into our judge having a hissy fit and exclaiming for the whole room to hear “If you don’t like the way I judge than you can f*n do it yourself!” and he grabbed his gear from our table and left in a huff. The triad member was a little miffed by this point and banned the 2 offending players from the floor for disrupting the game, and luckily there was a backup judge that was able to finish the mod with our original party of 4. I usually mention this to people when they complain about bad things happening at the table. I could go into way more detail, but suffice it to say that in the last 4 years of playing LG it was the single worst table experience I’ve had, and I’ve been TPKed. I also mention it to say to others that you don’t have to put up with BS at your table if your judge isn’t doing the right thing.
PenderGrass 12-10-04, 11:15 AM	Freaking-A, oroborous, that has to be one of the worst stories that I have ever heard about in regards to the RPGA. I still occassionally go into the 'Suspended Players Section' every once in a while and look at that guy that was banned for 'Physically Assaulting' people at a table. I guess some people just aren't meant to be geeks. ****
Samwise 12-10-04, 12:45 PM	Some situations are more complex than an entry in a database. The suspension is appropriate. Just remember that whatever caused that involved real people who are more than just one word.
hustonjj 12-10-04, 01:46 PM	Getting back to the subject of correcting a DM. Yes, this IS an important topic. My take on it? Don't bother, DURING the game. Unless there are extenuating circumstances, such as the judge's error is going to lead directly to the death or serious loss of a party member. Why? Because it is impossible to do without breaking the flow of the game, and it is VERY difficult to do without "Arguing with the Table Judge", an infraction under the RPGA General Guidelines. Even worse, if you allow your discussion to become even a LITTLE heated, you can easily be tapped for "Disruptive Behavior" that will likely be stated as affecting the surrounding tables. After the game, if yoiu approach the judge and say something like "I have some questions about some of the rulings you made during play, can we talk about them?" MOST judges will be happy to arrange something (as, at a con, they may not have time to do so immediatly, and you may not, either), and those that are unwilling to discuss it are unlikely to change based on your feedback in the first place. Also, tell the Senior GM that you are/will/have holding such a conversation. Specify what you saw, and why you think it was wrong, CALMLY. These people want things to happen correctly, just as much as you do. And I'll avoid my horror story. I've posted it before (though not recently, I don't think), and what I laid out above would have prevented the entire thing. Jeff Huston Spobody Necial
King Kashue 12-10-04, 08:46 PM	See, now letting "small" errors go can ruin a game for some players, because it's such a subjective standard... What I do as a judge, and what I ask the judge if it's okay to do when I'm a player, is to say "if you disagree with a ruling my judgement stands (Obviously this is reversed when I'm a player), but you can look it up, and if you find the rule at a point we can correct it (usually before your next turn) we'll fix it"... This way, the onus is on the player to look it up, and the judge doesn't need to worry about it... Rules interpretation is a different matter, like arguing to the DM that you should have opportunity to buy something (like the example above), that is just outright disruptive... Topical story: At the Onnwal special at GenCon UK my killing machine got cause feared in a nasty APL 4 module, the DM said that he runs until the spell is out, and I said he only needs to run until he is out of visual and hearing range of the caster...The DM had agreed to let me look up rules for everyone (in order to save him time, very involved module) and I was eventually able to find the reference hidden in the DM guide... At the time, my character was the bulk of the fighting, but it seemed as if the party would do okay without him, but the difference in ruling would have mean 3 extra rounds out of the combat (the time for him to run back to the fight)...As it turned out, what seemed "small" at the time ended up saving the party, as they would have been TPKed without me (with the possible exception of another hearty half-orc)...
Varthalon 12-11-04, 03:27 AM	Just want to point out some things. I judged all though GENCON So. Cal. I don't mind when player's point out a rule to me, but when I make a decision, I appreciate it if the player accepts that ruling and allows the game to continue. I like the idea of continuing play while the player looks up the rule to confirm it. Things to avoid: interupting play unless its not a minor issue. Letting spoil your play, just consider it an opportunity to find another way to complete the scenario, or just table it for the game and enjoy yourself. Please don't go to triad members or other judges and interupt there games also... the purpose of the senior GM is to be available to handle these issues. If its a regional con and they can't resolve to problem, they will go to the triad. A national con and they will go to the circle. Unfortunately the RPGA no longer has the voting/comment forms. While there were good reasons for getting rid of these, they were very useful to judges to see what they needed to work on. Senior GMs could also use them to spot problem players, judges and scenarios... However, now that they are gone, it is important that if you have a problem with your Judge that you tell the Senior GM (Dave C. at all the major Conventions). He has specifically asked for this. I don't know how he'll opt to handle it, probably act immediately on major problems and if several different people point out minor problems with the same judge. Dave is a great guy, very friendly and easy to talk with. I would also recommend going to the Nyrond website (Nyrond.org). They have a place to rank your judge and provide them with annonomous feedback about how they performed. I know I really appreciate constructive feedback from my players.