Post/Author/DateTime	Post
aveeare 04-12-07, 03:01 AM	This is somewhat of a survey question: In your experience, how long does an average combat encounter in LG? (please specify in rounds and APL) An example: APL2 5 rounds, APL4 3 rounds, etc. The reason behind the question is that I think authors, DMs, and players would gain much taking these things into account. For example, if the average combat encounter only lasts 2.5 rounds for APL12, it makes little sense for players to do a build that would take 2 rounds of boosting. Similarly, when an author writes the mod, the rapid resolution of a combat encounter should be taken into account.
Lupo 04-12-07, 03:20 AM	This is somewhat of a survey question: In your experience, how long does an average combat encounter in LG? (please specify in rounds and APL) An example: APL2 5 rounds, APL4 3 rounds, etc. The reason behind the question is that I think authors, DMs, and players would gain much taking these things into account. For example, if the average combat encounter only lasts 2.5 rounds for APL12, it makes little sense for players to do a build that would take 2 rounds of boosting. Similarly, when an author writes the mod, the rapid resolution of a combat encounter should be taken into account. there is hardly a definite answer, as it often depends on the party composition and the (special)-powers of the foes. lastly i had an APL 12 encounter vs. ONE foe that lasted more than 14 rounds . . . . . don't ask, it was a nightmare :D. nearly the same length for an encounter at APL 4, against a critter that comes out of the water ;) some will know what it is, it was partly zapped to death with magic missiles - from a wand - and the critter starts with some 90 HP. some authors have used a nasty trick to "adjust" the EL, they simply reduced the HPs of critters and left everything else the same, reducing the EL by 1 or even 2. if you run into such an encounter and don't have the rigth party composition for the job you are in trouble :P experience from the latest special (retired): <uhps> it isn't, so blanked out <snip> ciao martin m.
Timlagor 04-12-07, 03:56 AM	Authors (or rather NPCs) should certainly consider the possibility that a combat may not last very long. My experience seems to be for longer combats than people usually talk about for higher APLs ..I regularly have to check if my level 11 wizard's spells are about to expire. (not every combat by any means but definitely enough to make it interesting ..and they rarely actually do run out now) This is because few of the local characters (at least at that APL) concentrate heavily on damage (and optimise for it). Many combats are also 'decided' well before they're finished.
Madfox11 04-12-07, 04:38 AM	experience from the latest special (retired): one encounter was a nightmare from the start, and if the party wasn't able to deal with the critters fast, another combatant enters the arena while the first group is still standing. You do realize that the latest Core special is not yet retired? And if you are indeed referring to the real latest Core Special that those three encounters combined are still an APL +3 encounter which is perfectly in line with any adventure, let alone a core special. In any event, predicting how long a fight lasts is incredibly difficult. It is highly dependend on both the ability of the party, the PCs and the dice rolls. The dice can be especially important if things such as glitterdust, hold person and fear get into play and it works both ways. For example, last adventure I ran involved a couple of ghasts. The cleric with Sun domain could destroy these with ease, but of course she got paralized in the first round. So instead of a 1 round fight it became a 6 round fight that nearly ended as a TPK (luckily the tactic section stated no coupe-de-grace until all were paralyzed - which with the short duration of the paralysis is not likely to happen). At another fight at APL 8 (adventure retired) a PC got affected by a 7 round panic. He returned after 14 rounds with the fight still going on, and it finished 6 rounds later. Granted, that was a rather extreme example caused by fear, stunning, animate object spell-like ability and a successful summon by the slaad. Of course, I also got it the other way around where a fight ended in the surprise round.
Madfox11 04-12-07, 04:41 AM	My experience seems to be for longer combats than people usually talk about for higher APLs ..I regularly have to check if my level 11 wizard's spells are about to expire. (not every combat by any means but definitely enough to make it interesting ..and they rarely actually do run out now) Actually, most of the time it is the other way around if you count in game rounds that is. The longest fights in rounds tend to be around APL 4 and 6. On the other hand, if you count real time than high APL fights definitely last longer. Mind you, there are always exceptions to the rule and if you always play with the same group you are of course much more likely to always experience the exceptions since party composition is incredibly important factor.
zigspatty 04-12-07, 12:24 PM	The number of rounds isn't always indicative of the amount of real time taken by a combat. APL 4 or 6 combats tend to take more rounds in my experience, but each round tends to be shorter because characters have only single attacks, fewer spells, fewer items and few of the funky abilities that send judges/players to check their rulebooks. A high APL round can involve multiple summoned creatures, animals, multiple attacks, multiple spells with multiple saves and varible effects from the same spell - all from a single PC. And party composition plays a big part no matter what APL they're playing. If they're missing a particular role, they may come through just fine, but it'll often take longer. Patty
Sieylianna 04-12-07, 01:04 PM	The number of rounds is inversely proportional to the APL, low levels can't hit and at high level it's save or die. The real time length of the rounds is proportional to the APL, there are more attacks and other options at the higher levels. Ed
amnuxoll 04-12-07, 09:08 PM	Everyone has already pointed out that this is not only very difficult to predict but also not useful since, despite the average, the amount of variance even for an identical combat is pretty wide. Despite that, I will weigh in with my SWAG: Average Encounter Length APL 14-16: 1 round APL 10-12: 1.5 rounds APL 8: 2 rounds APL 6: 2.5 rounds APL 2-4: 3 rounds Apply the following adjustments to the above: - Party is playing up: +35% - Party is playing down: -25% - Party is badly unbalanced (no cleric and/or no melee): +25% - Judge is an experienced tactician: +20% - Judge is a pushover: -10% - Encounter has EL = APL +3: +20% - Encounter has EL = APL +1: -10% - Encounter has EL = APL: -40% - More than 3 enemy combatants: +20% - Author's first mod: -10% - Author has written 3+ mods: +10% :AMN:
Redfist 04-12-07, 09:28 PM	After keeping statistics over many many sessions I've ran and have witnessed while being a Senior DM at conventions, along with my own play experiences, I have churned all the data and have come up with a very reliable formula for how long encounters take. There may be some mild variation, but 99% of the time, a combat takes as long as it needs to. There - mystery solved. :D --Gordon
cycloptic_squirrel 04-13-07, 12:56 AM	There may be some mild variation, but 99% of the time, a combat takes as long as it needs to. Not as much experience or hard numbers here, but I've found this not to be universally true. So many times I've witnessed (or unwittingly been the cause of) fights dragging on far longer than they should have. One last goblin archer up on the ledge? Call the fight? Nah. Let's go through two rounds of five people each taking five minutes to decide they can't do anything that useful and the sixth guy pulling out a bow and shooting it. The last bandit ran away? I follow him! I chase him down. I don't care if he hiding! Yes, let's stay in rounds until we go through all the healing checks. We have to see which enemies actually survived and which ones bled out. I think if I learn the fine art of calling fights I might be able to get games I run back within the four hour time slot. As long as I don't start ending fights prematurely. I think I'd rather have a fight go long than have the DM call it when it still seems in the balance.
zoinks69 04-13-07, 01:25 AM	I'll answer differently: Make your characters efficient in combat. The number of rounds is of no consequence when you are using your PC to max effectiveness. A common issue I've seen are players that think their PC is going to "do it all". Don't fall into that trap. Also, don't take the info away from this thread and think "well I'm playing APL 4 so a combat should last X and it's longer so we've screwed up somehow". That's not to say I haven't seen that exact scenario happen ;) For melee -- learn to rely on other party members to buff you. Assume that, at best, you'll have one standard action before you've got bad guys in your face. For casters -- Have buffs/area effect/crowd control/summoning effects ready to go. Rely on your melee types to get in their faces and be meatshields while you do your dirty work. For others -- Put those skills or whatever it is you do to work. Skirmish/Spring Attack/sneak attack/chargers, etc should make everyone aware "this is what I do, please make sure you aren't in my way ;)" You should also be efficient, or at least effective, outside of combat. Contribute *something* to the table for non-combat encounters. Traps - be "that kind" of rogue. Or, be a saves/hp monkey that is willing to pop open the chest and not die. Or have the appropriate spells available to open the lock from range or heal the other guys when he takes a trap in the face. Face-time -- Consider working on Diplomacy and the other related skills, particularly for the types that have those as class skills. It's quite easy, via synergies to boost your check to pretty amazing levels. Be willing, even with 6 Cha, to add to the conversation and make your assist. Search/Gather Info -- similar to the above, but using a different stat. Be good at them or at least be able to hit the assist a majority of the time.
Zanzibax 04-13-07, 11:12 AM	This is somewhat of a survey question: In your experience, how long does an average combat encounter in LG? (please specify in rounds and APL) An example: APL2 5 rounds, APL4 3 rounds, etc. The reason behind the question is that I think authors, DMs, and players would gain much taking these things into account. For example, if the average combat encounter only lasts 2.5 rounds for APL12, it makes little sense for players to do a build that would take 2 rounds of boosting. Similarly, when an author writes the mod, the rapid resolution of a combat encounter should be taken into account. It is detrimental to the party for a player to do a build that would take 2 or more rounds of boosting. By the time a player is boosted, the combat is half-over...if the boosting goes for longer, that player will cause the encounter to last longer...and if the boosting goes for 4-5 rounds, quite often that player will be standing alone vs. the BBEG. Most encounters at any APL are over within 4 rounds. Some authors have tried to extend this by staggering the encounter, or staggering multiple encounters.
Timlagor 04-13-07, 10:09 PM	To clarify my earlier remarks: I was comparing my experience at APL8+ with the reports of others (1-2 rounds being the norm). I was not comparing to lower APLs where combats do indeed usually require more rounds.
Hariman 04-22-07, 02:16 AM	I'll answer differently: Make your characters efficient in combat. The number of rounds is of no consequence when you are using your PC to max effectiveness. A common issue I've seen are players that think their PC is going to "do it all". Don't fall into that trap. Also, don't take the info away from this thread and think "well I'm playing APL 4 so a combat should last X and it's longer so we've screwed up somehow". That's not to say I haven't seen that exact scenario happen ;) For melee -- learn to rely on other party members to buff you. Assume that, at best, you'll have one standard action before you've got bad guys in your face. For casters -- Have buffs/area effect/crowd control/summoning effects ready to go. Rely on your melee types to get in their faces and be meatshields while you do your dirty work. For others -- Put those skills or whatever it is you do to work. Skirmish/Spring Attack/sneak attack/chargers, etc should make everyone aware "this is what I do, please make sure you aren't in my way ;)" You should also be efficient, or at least effective, outside of combat. Contribute *something* to the table for non-combat encounters. Traps - be "that kind" of rogue. Or, be a saves/hp monkey that is willing to pop open the chest and not die. Or have the appropriate spells available to open the lock from range or heal the other guys when he takes a trap in the face. Face-time -- Consider working on Diplomacy and the other related skills, particularly for the types that have those as class skills. It's quite easy, via synergies to boost your check to pretty amazing levels. Be willing, even with 6 Cha, to add to the conversation and make your assist. Search/Gather Info -- similar to the above, but using a different stat. Be good at them or at least be able to hit the assist a majority of the time. And what about builds that don't fall into this formula? My rogue Wizard is a Ranged Touch Build. So my only option for efficiency is "hit the enemy with a ranged touch attack, and glitterdust a crowd if I can". As for combat duration, I've been told that higher level combats go faster. But some combats that SHOULD have gone quickly, IMHO, didn't. Mostly due to bad rolls, terrain hindrances and the lack of a specific type of character. (Mostly Arcane Casters and BDFs.)
wooti 04-22-07, 08:21 AM	- Party is badly unbalanced (no cleric and/or no melee): +25% :AMN: - Party is badly unbalanced (All arcane): -50% one way or the other it'll be finished quickly.
bitznarf 04-23-07, 11:40 AM	- Party is badly unbalanced (All arcane): -50% one way or the other it'll be finished quickly. Lol. Does someone get a suprise round? And who wins initiative? Kersplat.
LachlarlanIII 04-23-07, 02:50 PM	Not as much experience or hard numbers here, but I've found this not to be universally true. So many times I've witnessed (or unwittingly been the cause of) fights dragging on far longer than they should have. One last goblin archer up on the ledge? Call the fight? Nah. Let's go through two rounds of five people each taking five minutes to decide they can't do anything that useful and the sixth guy pulling out a bow and shooting it. The last bandit ran away? I follow him! I chase him down. I don't care if he hiding! Yes, let's stay in rounds until we go through all the healing checks. We have to see which enemies actually survived and which ones bled out This one's actually important in some cases. Such cases include lethal fighting in places like Greyhawk City where if someone dies, your character probably ends up in prison for a very long time.
cycloptic_squirrel 04-23-07, 06:51 PM	This one's actually important in some cases. Such cases include lethal fighting in places like Greyhawk City where if someone dies, your character probably ends up in prison for a very long time. I was more referring to the cases where the PCs almost surely will kill the enemies; or two are dead and the other two are only at -4 with multiple PCs still conscious. In close cases where it might make a difference, I would most definitely run it out; most of the time it's sufficient to ask, "Are you stabilizing any enemies?"
Cardinal Teplin 04-24-07, 07:31 PM	The answwers varies enormously due to differences in play style. If everyone is trying to do maximum damage in shortest possible time, then it will be over very quickly, one way or the other. If the party is being very defensive, it will last a long time. Some specialised tactics - such as the buff spiral, where you trap the enemy in a particular area, and bet that you can usefully buff for more rounds than he can - may take incredibly long amounts of time. Others, such as variations on 'scry + blast' may end the combat in a single round - after 1/2 an hour's worth of planning. What I would say is that the higher APL you are, the more specilaised your tactics can usefully be, and thus the more variation you get. Some areas will tend towards shorter fights as you rise in level, and some will see the exact opposite.