Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Necrochaos 04-16-07, 07:00 PM	I'm thinking of starting a dervish, but I'm sure exactly the best way to do so. Here is my first attempt: Snow Elf (Heh) Str 14, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 6 1 Ranger 1 - Weapon Focus: Longsword 2 Fighter 1 - Dodge 3 Fighter 2 - Mobility , Combat Expertise 4 Ranger 2 - TWF 5 Swashbuckler 1 - Weapon Finesse 6 Dervish ??? Does this make sense? Seems like you have to take Fighter to get all the feats in. Ranger gives me TWF for free. Should I be looking at something else? I'm probably looking to make this my Castle Greyhawk. Do I take human to get the extra feat? Just curious to get someone else's opinion
bitznarf 04-16-07, 07:27 PM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=629013 This thread should have most of what you need. There are a few things that are not LG legal, but it shouldn't be hard to weed those out.
Necrochaos 04-16-07, 07:35 PM	I did see this this thread, I was just looking for a new discussion. There is a lot of non-LG stuff on the other thread. I was wondering if Dervish is worth all 10 levels? Looks like most builds are using Swash 3 Fight 2 Derv 10. I don't like the Scout builds. I don't think it is worth it to lose the BAB for the d6. But the extra movement is pretty good. Should I go with a 16 dex instead of 18 and put a few more points in the con. Also have seen some builds taking two levels of Champion of Corellon Latherithain. Should I try to add this in also? I could take Mounted Combat at 6th level to help qualify
Mithreinmaethor 04-16-07, 07:53 PM	I did see this this thread, I was just looking for a new discussion. There is a lot of non-LG stuff on the other thread. I was wondering if Dervish is worth all 10 levels? Looks like most builds are using Swash 3 Fight 2 Derv 10. I don't like the Scout builds. I don't think it is worth it to lose the BAB for the d6. But the extra movement is pretty good. Should I go with a 16 dex instead of 18 and put a few more points in the con. Also have seen some builds taking two levels of Champion of Corellon Latherithain. Should I try to add this in also? I could take Mounted Combat at 6th level to help qualify Well this should probably be moved to the character discussion section anyhow but ----The Skirmish Dervish build I have been thinking on (Scout 6 / Rgr 1 / Dervish 8) Has Skirmish (+2d6, +2 AC if he only moves 10 ft, +4d6, +4 AC if he moves 20 ft or more) He has 2 favored enemies that his Skirmish dice can be used against (probably Undead and Constructs). He loses a total of 2 AB for this. He is also more Str than Dex. Probably wielding an Elven Courtblade
bitznarf 04-16-07, 07:59 PM	Well then, these are my thoughts, such as they are. 1) You appear to be fighting with 2 different weapons, Longsword and Scimitar. You aren't getting weapon finesse benefits with your longsword either. I would retrain out of WF (Longsword) into WF (Scimitar) as you take either your swashbuckler or your dervish level. 2) I think your Dex and Con rations are just fine, if you want more defence, take Elusive Target. Heck, take Elusive Target anyway 3) Champion of Corellon Latherithain. If you were to use the Longsword entry you are back to either using 2 different weapons, of which only one is 'finesseable', using 2 longswords and eating the -2 attack penalty as well as making Swash1 useless, or just having a feat (or 2) you don't use: WF (longsword) and Mounted Combat. You get into the same sort of problems if you choose one of the elven weapons to enter CoCL, but worse as you need one more feat to get it all working. You do get one back in the first level of CoCL, I would choose Elusive Target. In short, its fools gold. 4) From The Ten Commandments of Optimization (http://boards1.wizards.com/archive/index.php/t-522499.html): II. Wieldest thou thy two-handed weapon with alacrity; but two weapons shalt thou not wield, excepting that thou hast a source of bonus damage such as Sneak Attack. Add up your damage per swing at level 12, if that is enough for you fine, but I think you will find that it is not. 5) Look at replacing Dodge with Expeditious Dodge when you have a base speed of 40 ft. 6) Something I am forgetting.
jhorred 04-16-07, 08:41 PM	Well this should probably be moved to the character discussion section anyhow but ----The Skirmish Dervish build I have been thinking on (Scout 6 / Rgr 1 / Dervish 8) Has Skirmish (+2d6, +2 AC if he only moves 10 ft, +4d6, +4 AC if he moves 20 ft or more) He has 2 favored enemies that his Skirmish dice can be used against (probably Undead and Constructs). He loses a total of 2 AB for this. He is also more Str than Dex. Probably wielding an Elven Courtblade Out of curiosity, where does the extra 2d6 and 10' come from?
bitznarf 04-16-07, 08:48 PM	Out of curiosity, where does the extra 2d6 and 10' come from? Improved Skirmish I think the feat is.
Necrochaos 04-16-07, 09:24 PM	I don't really care what weapons I wield, if you suggest I use something other than a longsword I will be happy to do so. I could go LS and SS. I'm open. I just didn't think going scout was a great idea. But I could very well be wrong. Just trying to find what will best fit for my situation. I'm not all about the scout/rg idea unless than is what I have to do to pump out the damage and move faster. I was just worried about losing the BAB that I will need to hit at later levels. I welcome all ideas. Also, I haven't created this character yet, so everything is flexible. Scimitar will work fine for me if you think it is a better choice. What about a rapier for the crit range? Stack improved crit on it.
bitznarf 04-16-07, 09:42 PM	If you arn't power attacking, losing a BAB here or there isn't going to kill you. Especially with the Dervish bonus to your rolls. However to take all 10 levels of Dervish you have to take full BAB classes, as you had planned. If you want to stick with the TWF no power attacking theme, I would recomend taking 4 levels of fighter and 1 Swash for your entry, fighting with a scimitar, netting you Weapon Spec and eventually Melee Weapon Mastery. You will be slightly less optimial in the early levels as you will need to take WF (Scimitar) from level 3 on so that you can get the right Weapon Spec. Something like this perhaps... Fig1 - WF (Scimitar), Dodge Fig2 - Mobility Fig3 - TWF Fig 4 - Combat Expertise Swash 1 - Weapon Finesse Dervish 1 - Weapon Spec(Scimitar) Dervish 2 Dervish 3 Dervish 4 - I TWF Dervish 5 Dervish 6 Dervish 7 - MWM (Slashing) Dervish 8 Dervish 9 Dervish 10 - Elusive Target? G TWF? This probably isn't the most optimized build, but I think it is somewhat solid.
Maesto 04-17-07, 12:11 AM	There appear to be a few ways to make a dervish. The ones I like most are barbarian1/fighter4/dervish10, strength based, power attacking, and taking weapon spec and melee weapon mastery. The other which works well is scout4/ranger1/barbarian1/dervish9, taking swift hunter and improved skirmish. Either works well; the second loses one bab, and doesn't pick up the further +2 to hit, +4 to damage, but gets a consistent 4d6 extra damage and a whole lot of skills. You need to decide where your damage is going to come from. If it's not going to be power attack, you can go for a finessable weapon and two weapon fighting, in order to deliver death by a thousand cuts. If it's going to be power attack, jack up the strength and thwack them hard. There are some tumble based feats which give you attack bonuses which can go straight into power attack if you want. Dervish is essentially worth taking as many levels of as possible. It is that good. There aren't many other prestige classes for fighters that offer as much as dervish does; the contenders are pious templar, occult slayer, and holy liberator. Hope that helped.
bitznarf 04-17-07, 12:40 AM	Level 7 is also a good stopping point for the class, if you are forced to make a choice.
Alpha_Nerd 04-17-07, 01:38 AM	I like the Scout 4/Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Dervish 7 build. 4d6 skirmish with Improved, 2 Favored Enemies (Undead and Constructs probably for the skirmish damage), and only losing out 1 BAB, and plenty of feats to make the TWF character work.
Reznor00 04-17-07, 02:23 AM	I'm not sure how Barbarian 1/Ranger 1/Scout 4 is going to qualify for the Dervish and have Swift Tracker and Improved Skirmish. This is the best case scenerio I've come up with and human is the best build thanks to the extra feat, those I was looking at other races to have fun with like the dwarf with a dwarven waraxe /rapier that later took oversized and was wielding to dwarven waraxes while skirmishing. Anyways back on track here is my build idea H- Dodge (or Expedious Dodge at later level with a retrain) 1- Mobility 3- Swift Tracker 4 Scout-Combat Expertise 6- Weapon Foucs Scimitar Won't be using scimitar in both hands till dervish is taken though. Need Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Focus, and Combat Expertise for Dervish Preqs. This build gets nasty with Improved Skirmish but that won't happen until 9th level unless you took a level of Fighter before and for level 6 took Improved Skirmish. While Dervish is great, it's really only that first level of Dervish Dance with the Swift Tracker/Improved Skirmish its pretty nasty. I'd probably think of not even going TWF until after that with some fighter feats or something Thoughts? Thanks in advance, ~MB
copper_wyrmling 04-17-07, 02:39 AM	I'm not sure how Barbarian 1/Ranger 1/Scout 4 is going to qualify for the Dervish and have Swift Tracker and Improved Skirmish. This is the best case scenerio I've come up with and human is the best build thanks to the extra feat, those I was looking at other races to have fun with like the dwarf with a dwarven waraxe /rapier that later took oversized and was wielding to dwarven waraxes while skirmishing. Anyways back on track here is my build idea H- Dodge (or Expedious Dodge at later level with a retrain) 1- Mobility 3- Swift Tracker 4 Scout-Combat Expertise 6- Weapon Foucs Scimitar Won't be using scimitar in both hands till dervish is taken though. Need Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Focus, and Combat Expertise for Dervish Preqs. This build gets nasty with Improved Skirmish but that won't happen until 9th level unless you took a level of Fighter before and for level 6 took Improved Skirmish. While Dervish is great, it's really only that first level of Dervish Dance with the Swift Tracker/Improved Skirmish its pretty nasty. I'd probably think of not even going TWF until after that with some fighter feats or something Keep in mind that if you're relying on dervish dance to get skirmish on your full attack, then you want a lot of dervish levels as fast as you can get them - I don't know of any way to get more dances / day other than by gaining more class levels. My dervish has been playing a lot of adaptables recently, and in some of them we've been fighting seven to nine encounters in a day: two dervish dances just aren't enough :( Having finished RHOD, though, I'm looking forward to getting back to regular LG where he may be able to dance in every encounter, since he's 1500XP short of L10 and his fifth level of dervish ;)
Mithreinmaethor 04-17-07, 03:07 AM	Someone mentioned Barbarian above. If I remember correctly you cant use the Dervish dance when under the effects of Rage or Frenzy. Also if you go the Weapon Finesse route you might consider 2 levels of Wildrunner (RotW).
Maesto 04-17-07, 03:09 AM	I'm not sure how Barbarian 1/Ranger 1/Scout 4 is going to qualify for the Dervish and have Swift Tracker and Improved Skirmish. Sorry, should've been more explicit. From memory (no books here), you need dodge, combat expertise, weapon focus and mobility. You kinda have to be human (also kills xp penalties), and spend feats 1, 1, 3, and 6 on the prereqs, then take swift tracker at 9th, and improved skirmish at 12th. You're really not a power attack type of character though, so two weapon fighting might be the best way to go (second ranger level), or perhaps even a fighter level to pick up an extra feat. You probably have to sacrifice some dervish levels to make it work properly.
Necrochaos 04-17-07, 06:57 AM	Ok, now that I know I won't be a power attacker and I can afford to lose a few BAB, I'm trying to decide between: Fig1 - WF (Scimitar), Dodge Fig2 - Mobility Fig3 - TWF Fig 4 - Combat Expertise Swash 1 - Weapon Finesse Dervish 1 - Weapon Spec(Scimitar) Dervish 2 Dervish 3 Dervish 4 - I TWF Dervish 5 Dervish 6 Dervish 7 - MWM (Slashing) Dervish 8 Dervish 9 Dervish 10 - Elusive Target? G TWF? and Scout 4/Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Dervish 7 build. 4d6 skirmish with Improved, 2 Favored Enemies (Undead and Constructs probably for the skirmish damage) (I'd love to see this broken down by level to make sure I'm taking everything in the correct order) I do like the wildrunner idea. It doesn't look like the scream is like rage, so I should be able to do it during the dance. How do I slide it into the builds? This looks great for a TWF. I had planned on the Snow Elf route, but should I consider human for the extra feat and skill points?
bitznarf 04-17-07, 11:11 AM	Ok, now that I know I won't be a power attacker and I can afford to lose a few BAB This is a matter of preference, and is the difference between a Power Dervish and a Whirling Dervish as described in the handbook. Scout 4/Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Dervish 7 build. 4d6 skirmish with Improved, 2 Favored Enemies (Undead and Constructs probably for the skirmish damage) (I'd love to see this broken down by level to make sure I'm taking everything in the correct order) I can work on a build for this when I get back to my books later today if no one beats me to it. Edit: Ah hah! I knew it was out there somewhere: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=798408 I do like the wildrunner idea. It doesn't look like the scream is like rage, so I should be able to do it during the dance. How do I slide it into the builds? This looks great for a TWF. The wildrunner's frenzy does not combine with a dervish dance, as it is considered a 'rage or frenzy ability'. I don't recall the exact text regarding it at the moment, but if you read up on it, this should be clear. I had planned on the Snow Elf route, but should I consider human for the extra feat and skill points? The TWF Dervish is particularly feat intensive so you may want to consider human for that feat. Not sure yet though.
Maesto 04-17-07, 11:26 AM	Barbarian rage and dervish dance don't stack, as mentioned, but the extra movement is damn useful!
bitznarf 04-17-07, 11:38 AM	Considering that a TWF needs even more move speed to get all his attacks off? Yeah, getting extra foot speed would be high on the priority list of items to buy. Although by 8th level or so you hope to be getting haste anyway. I don't think that the extra 10' is worth the dip however.
Sieylianna 04-17-07, 01:00 PM	Ok, now that I know I won't be a power attacker and I can afford to lose a few BAB, I'm trying to decide between: Fig1 - WF (Scimitar), Dodge Fig2 - Mobility Fig3 - TWF Fig 4 - Combat Expertise Swash 1 - Weapon Finesse I'd take swashbuckler at first for the extra skill points. Ed
bitznarf 04-17-07, 02:39 PM	I'd take swashbuckler at first for the extra skill points. Ed The reason I put it where I did is because it doesn't help in any manner with a scimitar till your first dervish level. You could however work it around so that WF(Scimitar) is the last feat you take with your fighter levels.
Mithreinmaethor 04-17-07, 03:02 PM	Just use other weapons that you can use weapon finesse with until you get that 1st dervish level. I can post my Ranger 2 / Scout 5 / Dervish 8 build if you like.
TWG_Prometheus 04-17-07, 07:24 PM	Except in cases where you really want to end up somewhere else and are only hitting Dervish to grab one or two things (Will saves in a fighter build maybe) I'd stick in Dervish. I've seen reasonable Champion of Corellon builds dip lightly into Dervish but not much else pull it off reasonably. The reason for this is the primary feature of the class, Dervish Dance. The whole mechanic feeds off of additional class levels due to the added attack and damage bonus bumps every other level. If you manage to sneak in Fighter 4 before you arrive, you should find obtaining Melee Weapon Mastery relatively easy to accomplish and you're set for damage no matter what (slashing) weapons you use. I'm working on a Dervish that may have worked into a bit of a false start, but my chosen weapon was a Glaive, and I still feel that the idea was solid. Against Medium size opponents, you don't even have to make Tumble checks in the first place unless they start out right next to you and you can force them to take an Attack of Opportunity every round if they want to re-engage you in melee. It also allows for solid Power Attacking at the cost of the extra attacks of Two-Weapon Fighting.
Mithrus 04-17-07, 08:08 PM	Someone mentioned Barbarian above. If I remember correctly you cant use the Dervish dance when under the effects of Rage or Frenzy. Yep, I check read the text for dervish dance. You cannot rage or frenzy while dancing. However, Primal Scream from Wildrunner is NOT rage or frenzy so it should work fine. In fact, Primal Scream and rage stack, since both include unnamed boni. If you can do the barbar/wildrunner/dervish, you could scream/dance and then scream/rage once you run out of dances. For obscene movement, combine scout/barbar/wildrunner, with maybe some monk levels if you are really insane about movement...
copper_wyrmling 04-17-07, 09:18 PM	Yep, I check read the text for dervish dance. You cannot rage or frenzy while dancing. However, Primal Scream from Wildrunner is NOT rage or frenzy so it should work fine. Expect table variation, due to the text: "A primal scream induces a state of feral frenzy" and later "In this frenzy..." On my tables, Primal Scream is a frenzy ability, and thus cannot be used with dervish dance, since "a dervish cannot perform a dervish dance while under the effect of a rage or frenzy ability".
Necrochaos 04-17-07, 09:42 PM	I have an interest in the Ranger 2 Scout 5 build, but I wonder about the fighter 4 build to get the weapon spec and weapon mastery for the damage. I really want to do the TWF. I think I can pull it of without being human, but I could be totally wrong. There are some good ideas so far. I think I'll stay away from wild runner and CoCL for now. I haven't played a TWF before. I'd like to see more discussion before I make too many decisions. I can use other finesse weapons until I get to Dervish one and take WF Schmitar. This is more complicated than I had originally thought. I didn't realize there were so many feats for a TWF. Keep the conversation moving.
Timlagor 04-18-07, 11:05 AM	I'm with CWyrm on this one -I'd expect the tables on which you can Scream and Dance at the same time to be decidedly in the minority if the judges actually read both passages. Judges unaware of the issue may not pick it up but I'd expect those who are aware of it and still let you do it to be very few. (Rage and Scream certainly stack; the correct plural of "bonus" is "bonuses")
Timlagor 04-18-07, 11:06 AM	CoCL is not a PrC that you can enter half-heartedly. It simply requires too many Feats to be worth taking if you aren't going to squeeze everything you can out of it and those requirements force you to construct your whole build around it.
bitznarf 04-18-07, 11:10 AM	I just noticed that the build I posted (the Fig4/Swash 1 entry) takes a XP/GP hit from multiclassing. I can't see a way to get around that and still get MWM (Slashing) without going human. If you did go human, there are some definite benifits, and a few downsides of course. Human Str 14, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 8 Swash 1 - Weapon Finesse, TWF, Dodge Fighter 1 - Mobility Fighter 2 - WF (Scimitar), Combat Expertise Fighter 3 Fighter 4 - Weapon Spec (Scimitar) Dervish 1 - MWM (Slashing) Dervish 2 Dervish 3 Dervish 4 - I TWF Dervish 5 Dervish 6 Dervish 7 - Elusive Target? G-TWF? Dervish 8 Dervish 9 Dervish 10 - Elusive Target? G-TWF? This gets you MWM much sooner, a definite plus. It also gets an extra skill point per level as gravy. On the downside your dex mod is 1 lower. The big ones this affects are your attack rolls, your AC, and your tumble checks till you can auto make those. On the plus side you will have more skill points to play with to get your jump up to 5 ranks for a synergy bonus to tumble. Well, technically its an unnamed bonus, but it works exactly the same.
Necrochaos 04-18-07, 05:45 PM	I can deal with the Human build. I can always make a Snow Elf another time. I like the way you build this. I can always get some dex items and work around the AC. If I can use expertise my AC should be just fine. I'll be on the lookout for mithril Breatplate/chain shirt when I can get them. I also love elusive target and will take advantage of it. This is a build I can defintely enjoy. Other than the loss of dex, is there anything else anyone can pick up that I can tweek or try to move up the chain? Should I use something other than Scmitar at the beginning since I can't finesse with it until first level of dervish?
bitznarf 04-18-07, 05:59 PM	Watch out for your dex bonus bumping up against the max dex bonus (to AC) allowed by your armor. For example with 2 bumps into dex and a +6 stat item you will have a 24 dex, which is a +7 modifier. Even a mithral chain shirt only has a max dex of +6. I seem to recall an armor enchantment that can modify that number, nimble perhaps? I would recommend something like a rapier and a short sword until you have WF(Scimitar). Once you have WF(Scimitar) your attack bonus with it is the same as with the rapier. You would still have a short sword in your off hand to avoid a nasty 'non-light weapon in the off hand' penalty to your attack rolls. Once you get WS (Scimitar) you will obviously do more damage with a scimitar than a rapier. Still stick with the (non magical) short sword. And when you get Dervish1, (which will be around the same time you can afford gloves of dex +2), swap out your short sword for another scimitar.
Mithreinmaethor 04-18-07, 07:14 PM	Ok here is a quick run down of the Fighter/Ranger/Scout/Dervish build. Realize it is more STR based than DEX based. But its just for an idea for you. Wood Elf (S:18 D:14 C:10 I:13 W:10 C:8) 1 - Scout - Feat: Combat Expertise 2 - Ranger 3 - Scout - Feat: Weapon Focus (slashing weapon here) 4 - Fighter - Bonus Feat: Dodge 5 - Fighter - Bonus Feat: Mobility 6 - Scout - Swift Hunter 7 - Ranger 8 - Dervish 9 - Dervish - Feat: Improved Skirmish or Elusive Target 10 - Dervish 11 - Dervish 12 - Dervish - Feat: Improved Skirmish or Elusive Target 13 - Dervish 14 - Dervish 15 - Dervish - Feat: Improved Favored Enemy ????? I would carry the 2 scimitars and maybe a Falchion or Greatsword as weapons. Use the 2 Hander when you have creautures with a DR and use the 2 Scimitars when you have something easy to hit without DR. With this one you have 55 feet of movement. Once you move 10 feet you get +2d6 Skirmish, +2 AC, once you hit 20 feet you move up to +4d6 Skirmish, +4 AC. You will have 2 Favored enemies (choose something immune to crits. i.e Undead, Constructs, Elementals etc). Because even though you cant crit them with the Swift Hunter feat you can use your Skirmish against them.
jstorrie 04-19-07, 12:50 AM	Power Dervish is the way to go in LG–Skirmishing Dervishes take too long to get online, and TWF Dervishes fall behind in damage. Consider: Human Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 8 1 Barbarian: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip 2 Fighter: Weapon Focus: Guisarme 3 Fighter: Power Attack, Dodge 4 Fighter 5 Fighter: Mobility 6 Dervish: Weapon Specialization: Guisarme 7 Dervish 8 Dervish 9 Dervish: Melee Weapon Mastery: Slashing 10 Dervish 11 Dervish 12 Dervish: Deadly Defense 13 Dervish 14 Dervish 15 Dervish: Elusive Target Here you are fully effective before dancing at every encounter is usable–you have the setup for a good battlefield controller. Even when you are dancing, there's nothing unattractive about knocking multiple enemies prone, anyway. MWM and Weapon Spec are, as those above have mentioned, crucial, but I don't think you particularly need Elusive Target; with dancing, reach, and tripping, you can often end your turn outside of an enemy's reach. Deadly Defense instead allows you to up your damage a bit, and synergizes nicely with Dervish's Elaborate Parry. With Weapon Focus, MWM, decent strength and the Dervish to-hit bonus you have a lot of margin to dump into Power Attack for very high damage.
Mithreinmaethor 04-19-07, 02:18 AM	Unfortunately a Guisarme isnt a light weapon for the Deadly Defense. So I would assume you want him to use Scimitars by that time ? Either build works. The added AC from Skirmishing combined with Combat Expertise can add up. Throw in Acrobatic Strike in there and each time your Tumble past to avoid AoO you get +4 to hit also. Power Dervish is the way to go in LG–Skirmishing Dervishes take too long to get online, and TWF Dervishes fall behind in damage. Consider: Human Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 8 1 Barbarian: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip 2 Fighter: Weapon Focus: Guisarme 3 Fighter: Power Attack, Dodge 4 Fighter 5 Fighter: Mobility 6 Dervish: Weapon Specialization: Guisarme 7 Dervish 8 Dervish 9 Dervish: Melee Weapon Mastery: Slashing 10 Dervish 11 Dervish 12 Dervish: Deadly Defense 13 Dervish 14 Dervish 15 Dervish: Elusive Target Here you are fully effective before dancing at every encounter is usable–you have the setup for a good battlefield controller. Even when you are dancing, there's nothing unattractive about knocking multiple enemies prone, anyway. MWM and Weapon Spec are, as those above have mentioned, crucial, but I don't think you particularly need Elusive Target; with dancing, reach, and tripping, you can often end your turn outside of an enemy's reach. Deadly Defense instead allows you to up your damage a bit, and synergizes nicely with Dervish's Elaborate Parry. With Weapon Focus, MWM, decent strength and the Dervish to-hit bonus you have a lot of margin to dump into Power Attack for very high damage.
Mithreinmaethor 04-19-07, 03:06 AM	Deleted Until I get some sleep :)
jstorrie 04-19-07, 03:30 AM	I don't think you can take Dodge as a Ranger bonus feat, there.
Mithreinmaethor 04-19-07, 03:50 AM	I don't think you can take Dodge as a Ranger bonus feat, there. Yeah I transfered wrong. Its getting late :) I will correct all tomorrow
Mommy was an Orc 04-19-07, 10:41 AM	Power Dervish is the way to go in LG–Skirmishing Dervishes take too long to get online, and TWF Dervishes fall behind in damage. Consider: Human Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 8 1 Barbarian: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip 2 Fighter: Weapon Focus: Guisarme 3 Fighter: Power Attack, Dodge 4 Fighter 5 Fighter: Mobility 6 Dervish: Weapon Specialization: Guisarme 7 Dervish 8 Dervish 9 Dervish: Melee Weapon Mastery: Slashing 10 Dervish 11 Dervish 12 Dervish: Deadly Defense 13 Dervish 14 Dervish 15 Dervish: Elusive Target Here you are fully effective before dancing at every encounter is usable–you have the setup for a good battlefield controller. Even when you are dancing, there's nothing unattractive about knocking multiple enemies prone, anyway. MWM and Weapon Spec are, as those above have mentioned, crucial, but I don't think you particularly need Elusive Target; with dancing, reach, and tripping, you can often end your turn outside of an enemy's reach. Deadly Defense instead allows you to up your damage a bit, and synergizes nicely with Dervish's Elaborate Parry. With Weapon Focus, MWM, decent strength and the Dervish to-hit bonus you have a lot of margin to dump into Power Attack for very high damage. I'd put Combat Acrobat at 12th - it helps make Tripping viable again as you won't be able to be tripped if you fail. But skirmishing dervishes come on line pretty quickly now: Human Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 8 1: Scout 1: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip 2: Fighter 1: WF: Guisarme 3: Scout 2: Dodge 4: Ranger 1: Track 5: Scout 3 6: Scout 4: Swift Hunter, Mobility 7: Dervish 1 8: Dervish 2 9: Dervish 3: Spring Attack, Improved Skirmish 10: Fighter 2: Combat Acrobat 11: Dervish 4 12: Dervish 5: Power Attack 13: Dervish 6 14: Dervish 7 15: Dervish 8: Elusive Target
Reylance 04-19-07, 10:42 AM	Swash 1 - Weapon Finesse, TWF, Dodge Fighter 1 - Mobility Fighter 2 - WF (Scimitar), Combat Expertise Fighter 3 Fighter 4 - Weapon Spec (Scimitar) Dervish 1 - MWM (Slashing) I don't have my books in front of me, but I believe Melee Weapon Mastery requires a +8 BAB.
bitznarf 04-19-07, 10:45 AM	I don't have my books in front of me, but I believe Melee Weapon Mastery requires a +8 BAB. I didn't have mine either, so I wasn't sure. You could be right, in which case, switch it with I-TWF.
Mommy was an Orc 04-19-07, 10:51 AM	Throw in Acrobatic Strike in there and each time your Tumble past to avoid AoO you get +4 to hit also. Acrobatic Strike has a couple of problems - one subject to table variation and the other dependent on how smart your DM is. And I have the feeling the 2nd one will come into play quite rapidly when people starting adding +8 damage per swing from one feat. You only draw an AoO for the 1st part of your movement that could provoke. Your tumbling isn't actually making you avoid AoOs after that 1st square. Some people will dispute that or try to tumble through opponents. It is at the option of your opponent to threaten you with an AoO. They don't have to do that. If they simply choose not to try to swing at you, you don't avoid an AoO, so you don't get +4 to hit. Anytime someone starts tumbling around you at APL 10+, this should be pretty much an automatic action - as you likely won't get a chance to swing at them with an AoO anyway.
copper_wyrmling 04-19-07, 01:52 PM	Warning: rules argument with MwaO follows, regarding the feat Acrobatic Strike. I have learned in the past that me and Mommy tend to have wildly divergent ideas of what the natural reading of a rule is (by his ruling on Teleport Object, as far as I can tell, anywhere within 2000 miles counts as "your location"), so I strongly suspect this argument isn't going to persuade either of us, but I feel it's necessary to point out that it's not as clear-cut as he seems to think... ----------------------------------------------------------------- Acrobatic Strike has a couple of problems - one subject to table variation and the other dependent on how smart your DM is. And I have the feeling the 2nd one will come into play quite rapidly when people starting adding +8 damage per swing from one feat. You only draw an AoO for the 1st part of your movement that could provoke. Your tumbling isn't actually making you avoid AoOs after that 1st square. Some people will dispute that or try to tumble through opponents. I'm one of the people who will dispute it, because the way tumbling works is not "they try to swing, tumble makes them miss". If you tumble successfully, your movement does not provoke AoOs at all. They don't get a chance to expend their AoO - otherwise you could harmlessly draw off their AoOs so other PCs could move freely. If you tumble for the first square, then stop tumbling for the second square (because you wanted the +4 on your first attack from acrobatic strike, but there's a badly wounded PC who needs to get away this round and you want the monster's single AoO to be against your Mobility-assisted AC rather than the AC of the raging barbarian on 2 HP), then you provoke an AoO for the second square. Thus, if you had continued tumbling, you would've avoided provoking an AoO using Tumble, which is what Acrobatic Strike requires. (The PHB p.137-138 states that "moving out of a threatened square usually provokes an attack of opportunity", Combat Reflexes "does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity", and "moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent". Thus, the first time you move out of a threatened square and provoke an AoO for that movement, your opponent gets to swing. If you previously haven't been provoking AoOs by your movement, you haven't given them any opportunities yet - the "one opportunity" for movement occurs the first time you actually provoke an AoO.) It is at the option of your opponent to threaten you with an AoO. They don't have to do that. If they simply choose not to try to swing at you, you don't avoid an AoO, so you don't get +4 to hit. Anytime someone starts tumbling around you at APL 10+, this should be pretty much an automatic action - as you likely won't get a chance to swing at them with an AoO anyway. If you threaten a square, you always have a chance to take an AoO against actions that provoke in that square, unless you're out of AoOs or denied them for some other reason (e.g. cover). You can choose not to take an AoO once it's provoked, but if your opponent uses tumble to avoid provoking, it never gets to that step. I'd let a monster choose to not threaten a square, as a GM, but I wouldn't let them elect to not threaten a square for the dervish while threatening it for anybody else (and I'm pretty sure I'd also make them decide on their turn, since that's when you make other decisions about how you're going to fight offensively and defensively for the rest of the turn, like power attack / expertise / dodgebuddy / closing your eyes to stop gaze attacks) - you threaten squares, not opponents. It should also be reasonably clear that they're ignoring that square (deliberately keeping their weapon away from it). Finally, if a GM did this before the monster saw that my dervish was an expert tumbler who could use the momentum of his tumble to hit harder, I'd consider it pretty adversarial (unless there was good reason for them to know of his reputation). It's not a matter of choosing not to take an AoO, you see. They never get that choice, because tumbling movement does not provoke AoOs. Acrobatic Strike says that it triggers "if you succeed in using Tumble to avoid an opponent's attack of opportunity" - the only possible meaning for that is that you successfully tumbled through a threatened area without provoking an AoO, since otherwise the feat would have no valid trigger condition (there's no way to provoke an AoO and then avoid it using Tumble). Sure, it doesn't trigger if your opponent is blind or you have cover from them, or if they've already expended their AoOs for the turn (so they had no opportunity to make an AoO, and thus you couldn't deny them that opportunity). But if they have the capacity to take AoOs against someone moving through that square and you move through it without provoking due to Tumble, you should get the Acrobatic Strike bonus on your next attack. Remember, it's a feat with a prereq of 12 skill ranks. For the majority of PCs, it equates to +4 to hit on a single attack, since that's what they get if they move. That's not an abusive feat (compare Deft Opportunist). It happens to work particularly well for dervishes (in the same way that Deft Opportunist works particularly well for Karmic Strikers). Saying "well, my monsters would never take AoOs against you because they have a bad feeling about you - not that I need to prove this, since you didn't provoke anyway - so even though they threaten those squares and you avoided provoking an AoO using tumble, you don't get a bonus on your attack" seems to me to be about as adversarial as telling somebody with Elusive Target "well, my monsters have a bad feeling about you, so they're going to deliberately step so they don't flank, they'll never take AoOs against you as you move past, and they're never going to power attack against you" - except that the guy making the Elusive Target ruling is actually within the rules, while I think anybody ruling that way on Acrobatic Strike is not.
Mommy was an Orc 04-19-07, 02:38 PM	Warning: rules argument with MwaO follows, regarding the feat Acrobatic Strike. I have learned in the past that me and Mommy tend to have wildly divergent ideas of what the natural reading of a rule is (by his ruling on Teleport Object, as far as I can tell, anywhere within 2000 miles counts as "your location") No. It is simply the range of a Gate spell and/or nearby you(either before or after the spell if that location changes). I'm reasonably certain that there is very strong intent not to allow people to drop things from the sky using the conjuration school. Remember, RAI counts just as much as RAW in LG... If you tumble for the first square, then stop tumbling for the second square (because you wanted the +4 on your first attack from acrobatic strike, but there's a badly wounded PC who needs to get away this round and you want the monster's single AoO to be against your Mobility-assisted AC rather than the AC of the raging barbarian on 2 HP), then you provoke an AoO for the second square. Thus, if you had continued tumbling, you would've avoided provoking an AoO using Tumble, which is what Acrobatic Strike requires. Except that's not how it works - you do not get to roll your Tumble check on the 2nd square. Also, again, from an intent viewpoint - I'm pretty certain they meant one +4 to hit from one successful Tumble check. If you threaten a square, you always have a chance to take an AoO against actions that provoke in that square, unless you're out of AoOs or denied them for some other reason (e.g. cover). You can choose not to take an AoO once it's provoked, but if your opponent uses tumble to avoid provoking, it never gets to that step. Acrobatic Strike says that it triggers "if you succeed in using Tumble to avoid an opponent's attack of opportunity" - the only possible meaning for that is that you successfully tumbled through a threatened area without provoking an AoO, since otherwise the feat would have no valid trigger condition (there's no way to provoke an AoO and then avoid it using Tumble). That's not the only possible meaning... Making an Attack of Opportunity An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and you can only make one per round. You don’t have to make an attack of opportunity if you don’t want to. What has to happen is: A) You would have provoked an AoO B) Your opponent would have wanted to take an AoO - you can't avoid something that your opponent didn't want to do. In most cases, this should mean that on the first swing of the Dervish, he gets the +4 to hit. But on the 2nd swing, the opponent wouldn't want to take an AoO as he's aware that you're tumbling around him and it should be impossible for him to take an AoO against you. The DM doesn't have to know you want to use this tactic - the monster doesn't even need to know and shouldn't know you're using the feat - it should be the natural consequence of someone tumbling around you. As a DM, I'd let you get the use of the feat once per round on your first attack after successfully tumbling.
catsclaw 04-19-07, 04:02 PM	Remember, RAI counts just as much as RAW in LG...Unless the intent of the rules is patently clear -- and I'd say they're never patently clear -- you really shouldn't use intent to make rulings. I've seen too many people say "The rules say X, but I think the designers meant Y, so that's the way I run things." As in: "The rules say you all get spot and listen checks, but these assassins are supposed to be really stealthy, so you don't get them." or "You might have searched the square the trap is in, but I don't understand how you could search for a glyph of warding, so it automatically goes off."A) You would have provoked an AoO B) Your opponent would have wanted to take an AoO - you can't avoid something that your opponent didn't want to do.I agree you can only use the feat once per round against a given opponent, but it has nothing to do with the intent of the enemy or their interest in taking an AoO. You only roll once per round against a given opponent to see if you successfully tumble past them. Even if you stop tumbling, or leave and reenter their space, you still use the original result. One tumble check means a single +4 on your next attack.
Mommy was an Orc 04-19-07, 04:17 PM	Unless the intent of the rules is patently clear -- and I'd say they're never patently clear -- you really shouldn't use intent to make rulings. I think the rules in general have to be read for intent. Otherwise, you end up with a lot of bad literal rulings that make absolutely no sense - witness the 'channel negative energy' - if you adopt it, ILW is an evil act, but Mass ILW is not. Regardless of which side you fall on, you either have to read it that they intended both to be evil acts or neither are. Simply doing RAW is not enough. One tumble check means a single +4 on your next attack. Yes, but that's not how Copper Wyrmling reads it...
Timlagor 04-19-07, 10:36 PM	I disagree with MwaO about DDoor I disagree with MwaO that monsters choosing not to take an AoO is a valid way to negate the "tumble prevents an AoO" clause. I disagree with Wyrmling that you can ever prevent more than one AoO from movement per opponent per round: You can only provoke one AoO from movement* Therefore you can only prevent one AoO from movement. If you can come up with some way for Tumble to save a different sort of AoO that might work (I haven't checked the wording so it might not; +4 is still nice and I think you can do it to multiple enemies) * technically they can only take one AoO but there is still only one AoO to prevent as the attacks of any subsequent AoO opportunities have already been prevented by this existing limitation.
catsclaw 04-20-07, 02:40 PM	If you can come up with some way for Tumble to save a different sort of AoO that might workThere is the tumble check at -10 to tumble at full speed, and a tumble check starting at DC 25 to tumble through an enemy's space. The rules aren't entirely clear how all these interact (do I take a DC 15 tumble check to tumble around someone, then a DC 25 tumble check to move through their space? What if I change my mind about where I'm moving in the middle of my action?) So it's theoretically possible, in these cases, to make multiple tumble checks to avoid AoO's against a single enemy. I'd have to see the specific situation to know how I'd rule; in general I'd think you only got the +4 once. If you could get multiple tumble checks against a single enemy (by moving past them, then through their square, for example) it really improves the feat for my dervish. With movement mastery I auto succeed on tumbling through at least two opponents squares, and can even attack between those two tumble checks.(I haven't checked the wording so it might not; +4 is still nice and I think you can do it to multiple enemies)Against multiple enemies it clearly works; you're required to make separate checks for both enemies.
Necrochaos 04-20-07, 03:01 PM	I'd put Combat Acrobat at 12th - it helps make Tripping viable again as you won't be able to be tripped if you fail. But skirmishing dervishes come on line pretty quickly now: Human Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 8 1: Scout 1: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip 2: Fighter 1: WF: Guisarme 3: Scout 2: Dodge 4: Ranger 1: Track 5: Scout 3 6: Scout 4: Swift Hunter, Mobility 7: Dervish 1 8: Dervish 2 9: Dervish 3: Spring Attack, Improved Skirmish 10: Fighter 2: Combat Acrobat 11: Dervish 4 12: Dervish 5: Power Attack 13: Dervish 6 14: Dervish 7 15: Dervish 8: Elusive Target I think this is an interesting build, but why is PA so late? Seems like I would want this earlier to help pile on the damage. This could work for me, I just have to put some thought into it. I've always wanted a TWF, but I always read posts about how they are far inferior to most other characters. I will put some thought on this build.
Mommy was an Orc 04-20-07, 03:07 PM	I think this is an interesting build, but why is PA so late? Seems like I would want this earlier to help pile on the damage. This could work for me, I just have to put some thought into it. I've always wanted a TWF, but I always read posts about how they are far inferior to most other characters. I will put some thought on this build. Mainly because Power Attack is so much less effective than all the other feats that are in there: Improved Trip/Combat Acrobat - if you've got a poor quality iterative, you make a trip attempt - worst thing that happens is the thing isn't tripped. That's it. You can't possibly drop your weapon if your Balance is high enough. Trip starts to lose its functionality earlier than 12th. Improved Skirmish/Swift Hunter - the 2 of these add +4d6 of damage to your attacks at no penalty to hit. That's the equivalent of +7 BAB put into Power Attack without costing you a thing. Everything else is either a prereq or free.
bitznarf 04-20-07, 04:30 PM	I've always wanted a TWF, but I always read posts about how they are far inferior to most other characters. I will put some thought on this build. I believe this is because of the lack of extra bonus damage in most TWF builds. Like the 10 Commandments of Optimization say: "two weapons shalt thou not wield, excepting that thou hast a source of bonus damage such as Sneak Attack." If you go down the TWF tree, just be sure that you doing enough to be effective; you don't need the most 'uber' combat machine to be effective in combat. If you want to play a TWFer, great! If you want to play a tripping power attacker, great! Just pick the one that suits you. My own dervish build that I am playing is actually a trapfinding, staggering striking, power atttacker, but thats just me.
Paul H 04-20-07, 10:17 PM	Hi Just a thought, but.............. Human St 10 De 16 Co 12 In 14 Wi 8 Ch 14 1) Swashbuckler, (Wpn Finesse), Dodge, Mobility 2) Warmage 3) Swashbuckler, Wpn Focus Scimitar 4) Swashbuckler, (Insightful Strike) 5) Warmage 6) Warmage, Combat Expertise 7) Warmage 8) Dervish 9) Dervish, Two Wpn Fighting Stat Bumps to Int for extra damage. I know you don't get the extra Skirmish as from Scout (but that's a limited amount anyway), but you do get some useful spells & Int damage to your attacks. Levels of Note: 4th) Shocking Grasp +6 Touch Attack D6+4 damage (4D6 at 7th) Fist of Stone is +6 Attack/D6+6 damage 8th) Basic (Non magical) Scimitar + Blades of Fire +Attack, D6+2 +(D6+2 Fire) Etc.... Cheers Paul H
Paul H 04-20-07, 10:19 PM	Hi Just a thought, but.............. Human St 10 De 16 Co 12 In 14 Wi 8 Ch 14 1) Swashbuckler, (Wpn Finesse), Dodge, Mobility 2) Warmage 3) Swashbuckler, Wpn Focus Scimitar 4) Swashbuckler, (Insightful Strike) 5) Warmage 6) Warmage, Combat Expertise 7) Warmage 8) Dervish 9) Dervish, Two Wpn Fighting Stat Bumps to Int for extra damage. I know you don't get the extra Skirmish as from Scout (but that's a limited amount anyway), but you do get some useful spells & Int damage to your attacks. Levels of Note: 4th) Shocking Grasp +6 Touch Attack D6+4 damage (4D6 at 7th) Fist of Stone is +6 Attack/D6+6 damage 8th) Basic (Non magical) Scimitar + Blades of Fire +6 Attack, D6+2 +(D6+2 Fire) Etc.... Cheers Paul H
Timlagor 04-20-07, 10:22 PM	That really isn't very impressive damage. Warmage doesn't multiclass at all well.
TWG_Prometheus 04-23-07, 09:06 AM	The larger problem is that he's building for a Prestige class that requires the use of Slashing weapons, but is including a spellcasting class that doesn't work well with slashing weapons at all. Blades of Flame is too deep into the Warmage spell list for Dervish to consider. If we're talking about a 1-drop or 2-drop into Sorcerer for Blades of Flame and maybe Swift Expeditious retreat, that's another matter. Warmage makes a reasonable 1-drop class if you're getting Practiced Spellcaster as well AND the character's fighting style has a reasonable way to deliver touch attacks without interrupting their normal routine. A Versatile Unarmed Strike Dervish could probably pull it off, but you'd need Fighter levels to make room for Versatile Unarmed Strike and Practiced Spellcaster. You get 3d8+Edge Lesser Acid Orbs and 3d4+3+Edge Magic Missiles for when you need them as a bonus. Bumping Intelligence is also a relatively poor choice for full Warmages, let alone mutts.