Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gwumph 11-07-06, 11:21 PM	Is it worthwhile to take and follow that tree? I mean a 10th level monk with a decent wisdom (17) has a dc save of 18 for his stunning fist attack. is it effective or can most enemies make that Fort save? (considering it would be a CR 10 enemy)
budleiser 11-07-06, 11:37 PM	Dc18 Fort save doesnt sound that hard, but how often do you get to force? Also Wis 17? Im sure you could do better than that.
_m_ 11-07-06, 11:56 PM	i would expect that if stunning fist was your thing, you would have invested a bit into wisdom, ie, periapt +2 or +4.\ Also, alot of people dont use stunning fist to stunning fist, they use attempts to do other things.
Cynric 11-08-06, 12:18 AM	My personal favourite is Weakening touch. I have seen that -6 to strength make the difference between a power attack connecting with a lot of damage and not hitting.
_m_ 11-08-06, 12:23 AM	My personal favourite is Weakening touch. I have seen that -6 to strength make the difference between a power attack connecting with a lot of damage and not hitting. does it and ray of enfeeblement stack?
Mommy was an Orc 11-08-06, 12:27 AM	Is it worthwhile to take and follow that tree? I mean a 10th level monk with a decent wisdom (17) has a dc save of 18 for his stunning fist attack. is it effective or can most enemies make that Fort save? (considering it would be a CR 10 enemy) It depends on what you're sacrificing to get to that 17 Wisdom...
budleiser 11-08-06, 12:27 AM	does it and ray of enfeeblement stack? ROE is a penalty, which I think wont stack. *or maybe its just wont stack with itself*
_m_ 11-08-06, 12:32 AM	i know it can be cast till it max's itself. the question is, are they like reverser enhancements, and thus dont stack? that would be my guess.
jstorrie 11-08-06, 12:48 AM	Fighter / Monk / Pious Templar / Battlesmith with Freezing the Lifeblood?
Gwumph 11-08-06, 01:30 AM	Right but as a monk you need high score in other things as well. all those other things than stunning fist lead too i.e. pain touch, rattlesnake strike. etc etc the have a DC10 + 1/2 character lv + wisdom bonus. so level 4 its probably a DC 15 Level 8 a DC 19. But my orginal questions is does stunning fist or any of the special attacks derived from stunning fist, work on a regular basis considering the CR of enmy you will be meeting. The answer seems no to me, but then again i might be missing something.
clik_ml 11-08-06, 05:51 AM	Looking at all the CR8 critters in the monster manual, the outlook is not so good for stunning fist. There aren't many that seems likely to fail its save, and among those few is the Ogre Mage, and as far as CR8 critters go, those guys are pathetic anyway and will likely die from damage before ever seeing a fort save. Really the enemies you are likely to stun won't even be found in the monster manual. They're ECL zero creatures with class levels. Those are your likely targets. If you really want to add a little something to stun attack, then a level of rogue+ascetic rogue feat adds +2 DC to stun attacks when you are sneak attacking as well. I've pondered going the other way on this by having a rogue with a dash of monk who can stunning fist with a DC of 20 at level 10 (starts with 15 wis). If you intend to go all out on stunning fist, then beware, since you're sacrificing a lot to be wearing a +wisdom item in your +constitution slot. When you go adventuring into some tomb of undead, or a golem factory or somesuch, you'll be feeling the pain there with no perceptible gain.
budleiser 11-08-06, 07:16 AM	Off topic: Man I am still waiting to run into a golem, or a dragon at these higher APL's.
trollbill 11-08-06, 01:38 PM	As with many monk abilities, stunning fist works best against arcane spell casters (you'd be hard pressed to find a better anti-arcanist than a monk). but remember, even if you ignore all the other possible monk uses for Stunning Fist you still get it as a free bonus to any given attack you are making, i.e it doesn't really cost you extra to use it. So even if your enemy makes its save 80% of the time, it still gives you a fabulous effect 20% of the time. Stunning someone for a round can be devistating, especially with Rogues in the party.
solbergb 11-08-06, 01:45 PM	The main thing about stunning fist is it is low opportunity cost. If you're gonna punch someone anyway, might as well see if you can stun him. If you fail, you still do your normal damage and aren't worse off than before. compare to tripping or grappling...failure means you don't get to do damage. I like a monk that can do all three (mine doesn't do stun fist, but it was an experimental build that wanted low wis for roleplay reasons - it is not a choice I advise as an optomization approach). Use trip or grapple if it is more likely to work, use stun fist as a "what the heck" maneuver that will sometimes stop the other guy from acting and disarm him to boot. As the prior poster said....20% of the time sticking a stun not only guarantees the guy is there the next round for your full attack flurry AND gives you 100% immunity to a counterattack - if equipment dependent he's also screwed up the NEXT round because he dropped his weapon, metamagic rod or whatever. Sometimes it will make things much easier. You just have to be sure you're a credible threat when it doesn't work, and durable enough to stand up to a counterattack when you close to attack (never assume the tactical feats will work. Be happy when they do, it means a whole round more when you don't have to face a counterattack with your lower AC/hp than a typical heavy infantry fighter. That's a lot of the secret to playing a monk....always try to hamper the enemy when you can't flurry, and when you succeed, clobber them with the flurry in the followup round)
ShinAkuma2 11-08-06, 07:30 PM	Weakening Touch and Ray of Enfeeblement should stack because they are unnamed penalties from different sources. No reason they shouldn't combine to really ruin someone's day.
TWG_Prometheus 11-09-06, 08:46 AM	Weakening Touch and Ray of Enfeeblement should stack because they are unnamed penalties from different sources. No reason they shouldn't combine to really ruin someone's day. You beat me to it! Yeah they'll stack. Penalties are untyped. Ray of Enfeeblement would stack with itself if it wasn't...itself. Or if it was instantaneous, but then it'd probably be damage and as such wouldn't work on undead and constructs. Fatigue/Exhaustion also stacks with the above.
amnuxoll 11-09-06, 12:30 PM	You beat me to it! Yeah they'll stack. Penalties are untyped. Ray of Enfeeblement would stack with itself if it wasn't...itself. This is my Enlightened Fist's favorite trick. Of course, the RoE is also Empowered. Nothing says "bad day" like a -15 penalty to Strength. :monk: The hard part is actually *hitting* the bad guy what with a monk/wizard BAB...
Grantor 11-09-06, 01:46 PM	The save DC can get another boost +2 from Abiltiy Focus, as per the second template monk character in the PHB II.
awroe 11-09-06, 02:40 PM	Weakening Touch and Ray of Enfeeblement should stack because they are unnamed penalties from different sources. No reason they shouldn't combine to really ruin someone's day. Though because Ray of Enfeeblement can't drop someone's strength below 1, it's been argued that until you get enough non-Ray penalty to drop the strength to 0 it stays at a minimum of 1. Of course, 1 strength is still bad enough to incapacitate a lot of creatures.
kenobi65 11-09-06, 05:36 PM	The save DC can get another boost +2 from Abiltiy Focus, as per the second template monk character in the PHB II. Except that Ability Focus is an NPC-only feat in LG. Sorry.
kenobi65 11-09-06, 05:38 PM	If you intend to go all out on stunning fist, then beware, since you're sacrificing a lot to be wearing a +wisdom item in your +constitution slot. Just curious...as a monk, would you rather have that slot hold an amulet of health, or an amulet of natural armor?
Japangirl 11-09-06, 06:15 PM	I think Improved Grapple is significantly better than Stunning Fist, honestly. Stunning Fist has the save, and is useless against anything immune to crits and sneak attack (undead, constructs, elementals, plants, oozes, etc). Grappling bonus helps you grapple things, which your rogues always love and which can help you neutralize a spellcaster, and it also helps you escape from big evil things. That +4 negates the size difference between you and a large creature, and your strength and BAB are both good enough to have a pretty impressive grapple check.
_m_ 11-09-06, 10:18 PM	Just curious...as a monk, would you rather have that slot hold an amulet of health, or an amulet of natural armor? health. health is ALWAYS yummy... armour dosent get used as often.
Gwumph 11-09-06, 11:36 PM	As with what Japangirl said. If you take stunning fist, as a monk bonus, then you must buy improved grapple. Also most of the really cool stuff (rattlesnake strike, pain touch) take 2 or 3 feats to get to. If you are playing a monk using those extra feats to get there means you want it to work!! alot!! not just 1 in 5 tries. A grappler or a tripper will succeed alot more often than that ratio. That being said weakening touch has no save throw which makes it alot better to use!!
clik_ml 11-10-06, 01:29 AM	Just curious...as a monk, would you rather have that slot hold an amulet of health, or an amulet of natural armor? Almost always health. I could imagine a universe where a bump in AC of +5 would spare me more often than having more HP all the time, but as the levels go upwards there are more and more things that are gonna hit you (and likely via touch AC, where that natural armor doesn't help anyway), and I'd rather have the extra HP, especially as it scales upward. If I was going to boost AC for a monk, I'd be more tempted to do it via wisdom than natural armor, even though it gives less AC overall it is at least touch AC and the extra benefits are nice as well (+x will save, stun fist DC, spot/listen, etc).
trollbill 11-10-06, 09:33 AM	Just curious...as a monk, would you rather have that slot hold an amulet of health, or an amulet of natural armor? Definitely amulet of health but that's not the hard choice. Monks have to decide between an amulet of health, an amulet of natural armor, a periapt of wisdom and an amulet of mighty fists, cause they all take up the same slot.
SgtHulka 11-10-06, 11:17 AM	Monks qualify for Improved Toughness at level 3. 14 Con, Improved Toughness, and an Ioun Stone should give them respectable hit points. But Ioun Stones aren't cheap. Just for kicks and giggles... CORE 02,000 gp Ring of Protection +1 04,000 gp Gloves of Dexterity +2 04,000 gp Periapt of Wisdom +2 02,150 gp +1 Quarterstaff 01,000 gp +1 Cloak of Resistance 13,150 gp Subtotal ACCESS REQUIRED 00,750 gp Wand of Mage Armor 00,750 gp Wand of Cure Light Wounds 05,000 gp Dusty Rose Prism Ioun stone (+1 Insight AC) 08,000 gp Pink Rhomboid Ioun Stone (+2 Con) 16,000 gp Belt of Giant Strength +4 30,500 gp Subtotal 43,650 gp Total That's a lot of cash for pretty basic combat gear. And it doesn't include potions of bless weapon/magic weapon/magic fang/fly/cure wounds. Granted, taking out the Belt of Giant Strength reduces the cost significantly.
Japangirl 11-10-06, 04:24 PM	You get that much money by level 8-10, most likely. What will you spend your APL 10-16 money on?
_m_ 11-12-06, 07:51 AM	You get that much money by level 8-10, most likely. What will you spend your APL 10-16 money on? do what i did. buy a boat. then, when you can... buy ANOTHER boat. sure, they're totally useless, but still... its a BOAT!
Japangirl 11-12-06, 03:44 PM	Hahahaha! Another dread pirate, perhaps? Or you just wanted a boat?
_m_ 11-12-06, 06:24 PM	Hahahaha! Another dread pirate, perhaps? Or you just wanted a boat? i just wanted a boat. have no dread pirate, nor will i ever.. but cmon... its a BOAT!
Madfox11 11-13-06, 11:01 AM	As people said, the low costs, the many times you can use it per day and the huge benefit if it succeeds, really make stunning fist worthwhile. Remember, improved grapple can be taken by a monk anyway, but you need to wait a loooong time for that stunning fist if you don't select it as a bonus feat. I have seen monks save the day with it...
trollbill 11-13-06, 11:13 AM	As people said, the low costs, the many times you can use it per day and the huge benefit if it succeeds, really make stunning fist worthwhile. Remember, improved grapple can be taken by a monk anyway, but you need to wait a loooong time for that stunning fist if you don't select it as a bonus feat. I have seen monks save the day with it... Indeed...stunning a Beholder can do wonders for a party's survival.
Japangirl 11-13-06, 01:42 PM	Bah. So can glitterdust make a beholder very sad :). And how did you reach the beholder? It's generally flying.
DuctShuiTengu 11-13-06, 02:15 PM	What do you think that astronomical jump modifier (from the high speed and probably at least 5 ranks for the +2 to tumble) is for? Remember, just because it says stunning fist doesn't mean that it can't be a stunning flying kick.
trollbill 11-13-06, 02:34 PM	Bah. So can glitterdust make a beholder very sad :). And how did you reach the beholder? It's generally flying. Ki Strike Sweeping Spiked Chain. My Monk once took down a Chimera making straifing runs on the party by running of the edge of a cliff, leaping into the air (+32 Jump check) and tripping it in mid-air with that chain. Stunning fist can do wonders for grappled party members since a stunned creature dropped everything its holding.
solbergb 11-13-06, 03:41 PM	Glitterdust attacks the beholder's strong save with a low DC spell. Stun fist attacks the beholder's weak save with a decent DC effect. Personally, my monk favors grappling beholders, even though it does hurt the brain of the DM who has to make up mechanics on the spot. But then I didn't take stunning fist because I'm weird. You reach the beholder with your +40 jump check. Or your abundant step+sun school martial arts. Or maybe your potion of flying. Or the air walk the cleric cast on you. Or the mass fly the wiz cast on the whole party. Or whatever. By the time you fight a beholder, it won't have been the first flying enemy you wanted to get in melee with.
Japangirl 11-13-06, 05:00 PM	With the party I play with, it actually is :-/. We have an archer/ranger who dishes out the damage to flying things, so we don't generally worry about flying. Often we don't have a cleric (by which I mean at cons we might, else we don't), and our wizard is an evoker so he blasts the crap out of stuff instead of making us fly.
_m_ 11-13-06, 05:00 PM	Glitterdust attacks the beholder's strong save with a low DC spell. Stun fist attacks the beholder's weak save with a decent DC effect. Personally, my monk favors grappling beholders, even though it does hurt the brain of the DM who has to make up mechanics on the spot. But then I didn't take stunning fist because I'm weird. You reach the beholder with your +40 jump check. Or your abundant step+sun school martial arts. Or maybe your potion of flying. Or the air walk the cleric cast on you. Or the mass fly the wiz cast on the whole party. Or whatever. By the time you fight a beholder, it won't have been the first flying enemy you wanted to get in melee with. or your cragtop archer sticks it to a wall from 7 and a half thousand yards away. that was funny.
solbergb 11-13-06, 09:24 PM	With the party I play with, it actually is :-/. We have an archer/ranger who dishes out the damage to flying things, so we don't generally worry about flying. Often we don't have a cleric (by which I mean at cons we might, else we don't), and our wizard is an evoker so he blasts the crap out of stuff instead of making us fly. In a party like that the monk usually carries his own potion of flying, so he can contribute instead of twiddling his thumbs vs flying enemies. Or he's a wood elf monk with a bow or something. I dunno. I don't like standing around idle. Monks don't have a lot of scope for doing support tricks vs flying opponents, so damage dealing is all they're likely to contribute. They tend to do that better if they can get to melee range somehow. Or alternately they can wait underneath the flying guy for somebody in the party to zap the fliers ability to fly. If the flier isn't too high up, you can do it yourself with a tanglefoot bag vs some fliers.
Lupo 11-14-06, 03:00 AM	In a party like that the monk usually carries his own potion of flying, so he can contribute instead of twiddling his thumbs vs flying enemies. Or he's a wood elf monk with a bow or something. I dunno. I don't like standing around idle. Monks don't have a lot of scope for doing support tricks vs flying opponents, so damage dealing is all they're likely to contribute. They tend to do that better if they can get to melee range somehow. Or alternately they can wait underneath the flying guy for somebody in the party to zap the fliers ability to fly. If the flier isn't too high up, you can do it yourself with a tanglefoot bag vs some fliers. get some winged boots, they are far more usefull for a monk than boots of speed. a monk has a lot of attacks by himself, but is definitely a "close contact combatant". especcially usefull when you get one of the "artistic" charge options that take away the need to charge in a straight line. drunken master gets it and some other prestige classes as well, but i just don't have my books handy. also bear in mind that one can actually "trip" flying opponents (at least those that actually use wings to fly). carrying a spiked chain and being enlarged gives a monk some ability to reach out for flyers. a whip might also be usefull agains some flyers. ciao martin m.
solbergb 11-15-06, 03:31 PM	Times I have needed to fly under my own power using a std action in 13 levels with my monk: Twice. I think a potion of fly is sufficient here. Times when I could use an extra attack, +1 to hit, +1 to AC and +1 to reflex save - every single combat. Boots of haste are better. Plus they stack with the potion of fly or fly cast by somebody else to give 90' flight when you REALLY need to fly, as opposed to running around and jumping/climbing like Jackie Chan.
Lupo 11-15-06, 04:09 PM	Times I have needed to fly under my own power using a std action in 13 levels with my monk: Twice. I think a potion of fly is sufficient here. Times when I could use an extra attack, +1 to hit, +1 to AC and +1 to reflex save - every single combat. Boots of haste are better. Plus they stack with the potion of fly or fly cast by somebody else to give 90' flight when you REALLY need to fly, as opposed to running around and jumping/climbing like Jackie Chan. :) also very dependant of your regular party sports an arcanist who casts "haste" on a regular basis. your chances of getting a haste spell are much higher than getting a regular "fly", excluding "fly, mass" which is one of the no-brainer-spells. ciao martin m.
_m_ 11-15-06, 05:17 PM	:) also very dependant of your regular party sports an arcanist who casts "haste" on a regular basis. your chances of getting a haste spell are much higher than getting a regular "fly", excluding "fly, mass" which is one of the no-brainer-spells. ciao martin m. tis a real pitty then, that sum of the arcane casters are no brainers then, aint it :D (int 25 means im smrat?)
Lupo 11-15-06, 05:34 PM	tis a real pitty then, that sum of the arcane casters are no brainers then, aint it :D (int 25 means im smrat?) :) cmon, "fly,mass" is one of the most usefull spells, my wizard is definitely going to take it. ciao martin m. ps: and he will only have around int 24 when being able to take it ;)
_m_ 11-15-06, 05:53 PM	:) cmon, "fly,mass" is one of the most usefull spells, my wizard is definitely going to take it. ciao martin m. ps: and he will only have around int 24 when being able to take it ;) ah, well thats ok then. us 25 inters are too smart to take it, obviously. meanwhile, at level 9, i could cast level 3 spells... thats it. interesting...
solbergb 11-16-06, 02:17 PM	Ok to repeat. Boots of haste and potion of fly work fine with NO arcane in the party. Boots of fly and potion of haste don't work nearly as well. Boots of haste are even superior to having the arcane cast haste sometimes...because they do not take a precious standard action (and also don't need a command word, which can matter sometimes). The first combo gives 90' good flight in one round of "buffing" The second takes two rounds to get the same effect. Actions are precious. Magic items that activate as a free action are just better than those that don't.
_m_ 11-16-06, 05:00 PM	what about swift fly? that duznt take any of your precious actions. if you only need to fly for 1 round to grapple that damn flying fool, thatd do methinks.
solbergb 11-16-06, 06:57 PM	Swift fly would be great. Pity there are no items of swift fly handy. Monks don't cast spells ya know :) At least most don't (/me hugs my Blood Wind spell and my wizard 1 level)
_m_ 11-16-06, 08:37 PM	Swift fly would be great. Pity there are no items of swift fly handy. Monks don't cast spells ya know :) At least most don't (/me hugs my Blood Wind spell and my wizard 1 level) no, i meant, y not get sum1 else to give u swift fly. then they still have their full actions, u still have your full actions, you can use your boots of haste, then go and attack the thing that turn, and the caster is free to do whatever they want. so uve used... 0 turns to get haste and fly.
solbergb 11-17-06, 01:56 PM	Swift fly is personal only, sadly. You'd need somebody to prep a quickened fly spell. Or perhaps one of those divine metamagic quicken travel domain cheese clerics :)
_m_ 11-20-06, 04:53 PM	Swift fly is personal only, sadly. You'd need somebody to prep a quickened fly spell. Or perhaps one of those divine metamagic quicken travel domain cheese clerics :) mmm. quickentastic.