Illusion: when to disbelieve? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Illusion: when to disbelieve? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
The_Jester
11-22-06, 02:15 PM Illusion: when to disbelieve?

Just a little clarification that’s been driving me nuts since, well, forever. When can you disbelieve an illusion? What counts as interaction?

When you touch it or it touches you?
When you see or hear it?
If you attack it with spell or weapon?

For example, if a wizard cast fireball on illusionary goblin (let’s say minor image) would she be able to make a saving throw?
What if the illusionist was watching and could have the illusion react (fall down, get burnt, etc)?

When should a DM call for a will save? Doesn’t calling for one at the beginning of combat imply there is something going on?
UMiskatonic
11-22-06, 04:14 PM When you touch it or it touches you?
When you see or hear it?
If you attack it with spell or weapon?

Yes
No
Yes

There's a pretty good rules of the game article on this at the wizards site. You might also get a save for something that's clearly unbelievable. In a world where wizards can make monsters appear from thin air, I'm not quite sure what that would be.
JohnduBois
11-22-06, 04:42 PM There's a pretty good rules of the game article on this at the wizards site. You might also get a save for something that's clearly unbelievable. In a world where wizards can make monsters appear from thin air, I'm not quite sure what that would be.
FYI, here are the links to the Rules of the Game articles on illusions:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060207a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060214a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060221a (this one's got the "interact" stuff)
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060228a

If you work heavily with illusions, I HIGHLY recommend printing them out and bringing them with you. They're not rules for LG, but most DMs will accept them unless they have a good reason not to.
The_Jester
11-22-06, 05:09 PM Excellent, that helps.

I wonder about special abilities.
For example, if one creates an illusion of a medusa (either a shadow conjuration or a major image) and someone fails their save, can it make them believe they've been turned to stone?
LGMoses
11-22-06, 10:43 PM I don't know if I agree with that but I'm not versed on these rules so this is all just conjecture. if the BBEG created the illusion of a guard and Player A "snuck up" on him and "studied" him y should he get a will save? I mean, how can you disbelieve unless you have some suspicion that its an illusion. Now, if PlayerA made some noise by accident and the guard didn't move and then started getting up his courage making more and the guard didn't move, a will save may be warranted.

And what about illusory floors over pit traps. Those are going to need 2 saves, Will and Reflex.

but maybe I'm over analyzing this...
_m_
11-22-06, 10:50 PM And what about illusory floors over pit traps. Those are going to need 2 saves, Will and Reflex.

but maybe I'm over analyzing this...

... if you failed you're will save, you'd believe the floor was there, and hence not fall. simple.

*grin*
RedKnightofKet
11-22-06, 11:03 PM Ah, the Looney Tunes d20 game. I've got a fourth level bunny going for Wascaly Wabbit.
:rimshot:

... if you failed you're will save, you'd believe the floor was there, and hence not fall. simple.

*grin*
_m_
11-22-06, 11:38 PM Ah, the Looney Tunes d20 game. I've got a fourth level bunny going for Wascaly Wabbit.
:rimshot:

... arent they restricted?
RedKnightofKet
11-23-06, 11:21 AM Nope, it's just limited, and requires quite a few feats. Lucky, I have my lucky rabbit's feats...:rofl:

... arent they restricted?
_m_
11-23-06, 06:07 PM Nope, it's just limited, and requires quite a few feats. Lucky, I have my lucky rabbit's feats...:rofl:

:clap: very nice.
Newpaintbrush
11-25-06, 01:35 AM Well, a LOT of illusion interaction is up to the DM.

For example, let's say that you use a Silent Image to create an illusion of a shadow.

If your DM says your opponent is really dumb, too dumb in a magical world to react to what could be a real threat by an enemy spellcaster, that opponent might just totally ignore the shadow to attack the spellcaster.

If your DM says your opponent is just moderately dumb, that opponent still might ignore the "shadow" to attack the spellcaster. Because everyone knows that wizards and sorcerers wear "red Star Trek shirts" as armor.

If your DM says your opponent is just run of the mill, your opponent could attack the caster in a panic.

If your DM says your opponent is somewhat intelligent, your opponent could notice that you're maintaining concentration on maintaining the spell, so could attack you to try to disrupt your "control".

If your DM says your opponent is really smart, your opponent might make a Spellcraft check as you cast the spell and identify it as a "Silent Image". Or maybe your opponent has experience fighting shadows, and knows that your illusion isn't a shadow.

Etc. etc.
JamesMaissen
11-26-06, 04:15 PM Illusion: when to disbelieve?

Just a little clarification that’s been driving me nuts since, well, forever. When can you disbelieve an illusion? What counts as interaction?

When you touch it or it touches you?
When you see or hear it?
If you attack it with spell or weapon?

1. Yes.

2. No, with the following caveats. A> If you are a high enough level Church Inquisitor then yes. B> If you actively spot it rather than reactively spot it (ie I 'study' so and so).

3. Yes.

When should a DM call for a will save? Doesn’t calling for one at the beginning of combat imply there is something going on?

Yes should they be inclined to metagame. Likewise having one PC find out it's an illusion but be inable to communicate it to the others could also be problematic based on your players. If you feel that they may be inclined to be troubled by such outside information then I suggest that you get a few prerolled d20s from each of them as well as save information on index cards from them. For some it is needed from a deficiency, but for others its more freeing as they don't have to weigh within themselves some leap of logic that they may have made/tried honestly without the outside information.

-James
Britt
11-26-06, 04:28 PM Two recent pet peeves of mine:

1. Players saying "I want to attempt to disbelieve." There's no such thing in 3.x, AFAIK. If you fulfill the requirements, you get a save; if you fail that save, you don't get another one unless the spell says so, no matter how much you think it's not real.

2. Players deciding that even though they failed their saves, they still believe it's an illusion. No you don't! If you failed your save, you believe it's real, no matter how unlikely it is. Those other PCs must be wrong and being affected by an illusion saying that X isn't there (assuming you also failed a second save with the bonus from allies telling you it's an illusion).

Sorry, just has been annoying me lately :p

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_Jester 11-22-06, 02:15 PM	Illusion: when to disbelieve? Just a little clarification that’s been driving me nuts since, well, forever. When can you disbelieve an illusion? What counts as interaction? When you touch it or it touches you? When you see or hear it? If you attack it with spell or weapon? For example, if a wizard cast fireball on illusionary goblin (let’s say minor image) would she be able to make a saving throw? What if the illusionist was watching and could have the illusion react (fall down, get burnt, etc)? When should a DM call for a will save? Doesn’t calling for one at the beginning of combat imply there is something going on?
UMiskatonic 11-22-06, 04:14 PM	When you touch it or it touches you? When you see or hear it? If you attack it with spell or weapon? Yes No Yes There's a pretty good rules of the game article on this at the wizards site. You might also get a save for something that's clearly unbelievable. In a world where wizards can make monsters appear from thin air, I'm not quite sure what that would be.
JohnduBois 11-22-06, 04:42 PM	There's a pretty good rules of the game article on this at the wizards site. You might also get a save for something that's clearly unbelievable. In a world where wizards can make monsters appear from thin air, I'm not quite sure what that would be. FYI, here are the links to the Rules of the Game articles on illusions: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060207a http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060214a http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060221a (this one's got the "interact" stuff) http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060228a If you work heavily with illusions, I HIGHLY recommend printing them out and bringing them with you. They're not rules for LG, but most DMs will accept them unless they have a good reason not to.
The_Jester 11-22-06, 05:09 PM	Excellent, that helps. I wonder about special abilities. For example, if one creates an illusion of a medusa (either a shadow conjuration or a major image) and someone fails their save, can it make them believe they've been turned to stone?
LGMoses 11-22-06, 10:43 PM	I don't know if I agree with that but I'm not versed on these rules so this is all just conjecture. if the BBEG created the illusion of a guard and Player A "snuck up" on him and "studied" him y should he get a will save? I mean, how can you disbelieve unless you have some suspicion that its an illusion. Now, if PlayerA made some noise by accident and the guard didn't move and then started getting up his courage making more and the guard didn't move, a will save may be warranted. And what about illusory floors over pit traps. Those are going to need 2 saves, Will and Reflex. but maybe I'm over analyzing this...
_m_ 11-22-06, 10:50 PM	And what about illusory floors over pit traps. Those are going to need 2 saves, Will and Reflex. but maybe I'm over analyzing this... ... if you failed you're will save, you'd believe the floor was there, and hence not fall. simple. grin
RedKnightofKet 11-22-06, 11:03 PM	Ah, the Looney Tunes d20 game. I've got a fourth level bunny going for Wascaly Wabbit. :rimshot: ... if you failed you're will save, you'd believe the floor was there, and hence not fall. simple. grin
_m_ 11-22-06, 11:38 PM	Ah, the Looney Tunes d20 game. I've got a fourth level bunny going for Wascaly Wabbit. :rimshot: ... arent they restricted?
RedKnightofKet 11-23-06, 11:21 AM	Nope, it's just limited, and requires quite a few feats. Lucky, I have my lucky rabbit's feats...:rofl: ... arent they restricted?
_m_ 11-23-06, 06:07 PM	Nope, it's just limited, and requires quite a few feats. Lucky, I have my lucky rabbit's feats...:rofl: :clap: very nice.
Newpaintbrush 11-25-06, 01:35 AM	Well, a LOT of illusion interaction is up to the DM. For example, let's say that you use a Silent Image to create an illusion of a shadow. If your DM says your opponent is really dumb, too dumb in a magical world to react to what could be a real threat by an enemy spellcaster, that opponent might just totally ignore the shadow to attack the spellcaster. If your DM says your opponent is just moderately dumb, that opponent still might ignore the "shadow" to attack the spellcaster. Because everyone knows that wizards and sorcerers wear "red Star Trek shirts" as armor. If your DM says your opponent is just run of the mill, your opponent could attack the caster in a panic. If your DM says your opponent is somewhat intelligent, your opponent could notice that you're maintaining concentration on maintaining the spell, so could attack you to try to disrupt your "control". If your DM says your opponent is really smart, your opponent might make a Spellcraft check as you cast the spell and identify it as a "Silent Image". Or maybe your opponent has experience fighting shadows, and knows that your illusion isn't a shadow. Etc. etc.
JamesMaissen 11-26-06, 04:15 PM	Illusion: when to disbelieve? Just a little clarification that’s been driving me nuts since, well, forever. When can you disbelieve an illusion? What counts as interaction? When you touch it or it touches you? When you see or hear it? If you attack it with spell or weapon? 1. Yes. 2. No, with the following caveats. A> If you are a high enough level Church Inquisitor then yes. B> If you actively spot it rather than reactively spot it (ie I 'study' so and so). 3. Yes. When should a DM call for a will save? Doesn’t calling for one at the beginning of combat imply there is something going on? Yes should they be inclined to metagame. Likewise having one PC find out it's an illusion but be inable to communicate it to the others could also be problematic based on your players. If you feel that they may be inclined to be troubled by such outside information then I suggest that you get a few prerolled d20s from each of them as well as save information on index cards from them. For some it is needed from a deficiency, but for others its more freeing as they don't have to weigh within themselves some leap of logic that they may have made/tried honestly without the outside information. -James
Britt 11-26-06, 04:28 PM	Two recent pet peeves of mine: 1. Players saying "I want to attempt to disbelieve." There's no such thing in 3.x, AFAIK. If you fulfill the requirements, you get a save; if you fail that save, you don't get another one unless the spell says so, no matter how much you think it's not real. 2. Players deciding that even though they failed their saves, they still believe it's an illusion. No you don't! If you failed your save, you believe it's real, no matter how unlikely it is. Those other PCs must be wrong and being affected by an illusion saying that X isn't there (assuming you also failed a second save with the bonus from allies telling you it's an illusion). Sorry, just has been annoying me lately :p