Illusions [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Illusions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
lostpike
07-10-07, 05:19 PM Is seeing and hearing an illusion enough to satisfy the "interaction" requirement to get a will save or do you actually have to touch an illusion?
Some_call_me_Tim
07-10-07, 05:52 PM Is seeing and hearing an illusion enough to satisfy the "interaction" requirement to get a will save or do you actually have to touch an illusion?
Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.[emphasis added]
Just because a character hears or sees the illusion is not enough, but they don't actually have to touch it either. "Study carefully" in my book would be asking for more specific information about the area/object or asking to make for a search check for example. Anything that makes me think the PC is suspicious of the illusion. I would not require them to ask if it is an illusion. "Interact" wouldn't necessarily mean touching directly either. Throwing something at the object or trying to cast a spell should be enough.
Maesto
07-11-07, 12:52 AM Do you get a will save against ghost sound then?
jstorrie
07-11-07, 03:48 AM To 'interact' with something a PC needs to take some action that would have consequences based on the illusion. Poking at an illusory pit with a stick, greeting an illusory guard, swinging at an illusory monster, etc. These are all cases where the PC would expect some consequence based on what they believe to be true–the save is to see if they 'buy in' to the illusion, or realize that there's discrepancy between what they thought they saw and what is actually happening.

Merely seeing or hearing something is not enough. There shouldn't be that many cases where you get a save against a Ghost Sound.
Some_call_me_Tim
07-11-07, 12:48 PM Do you get a will save against ghost sound then?Sure do. All you have to do is interact with it or study it carefully. Suitable interaction might include yelling at the "people" singing and finding they don't react.

To 'interact' with something a PC needs to take some action that would have consequences based on the illusion.Don't forget the rule I quoted above; studying the sound intently also would grant a saving throw. A lot depends on the nature of sound and the length of time spent listening. A sound that seems to be approaching will be revealed false if after some length of time nothing ever arrives.

I kind of imagine ghost sound to be like a small tape recording playing a loop of sound over and over. At first listen it might sound authentic, but after listening to it a while, the never-changing nature of it will be obvious.
KarmaInferno
07-11-07, 05:59 PM It greatly depends on circumstance.

If it's just an illusion on the street that you happen to be walking by, just seeing it isn't likely to warrant a Will save to disbelieve. Your character has no reason to think it might be "fake", and it's not really immediately pertinent to whatever you are doing at the time.

In a combat, it's trickier. If you slash at the illusion, sure, make that save. If it's on the other end of the battle and you have no reason to think it's anything other than real, probably not.

To me, it boils down to "Do you have a reason to suspect it's fake?"

There's always exceptions, of course. I play a Church Inquisitor - it's a waste of time to try and use illusions against them, as they get an automatic save as soon as they look at the illusion. With the will save bonus a divine caster usually has, that amounts to a near automatic disbelief.

-karma
Maesto
07-11-07, 10:10 PM Hmm, I wonder if a church inquisitor automatically makes a save vs ghost sound, 'coz he ain't seeing that!

The only time I've ever used ghost sound in combat was as an invisible NPC in the woods. He cast ghost sound to convince some party members that he was on the other side of the track, and the party split ;-)
Frumpkis
07-12-07, 02:43 AM I once used a Ghost Sound sorta in combat. It was a recon mission at an interactive, and our completely invisible party had to sneak into a room with guards in it. The door into the room was already slightly ajar, but we had to figure out a way to open it wider so our party would fit through, without being noticed by the guards. My bard cast a Ghost Sound towards the corridor on the opposite side of the room; the guards went to investigate, and we successfully got into the room.

As a DM, I had a player cast Ghost Sound to distract a dire lion or something (so that the lion went to investigate the noise instead of charging the low-level tank).

In most cases I'd say, it's rare to be in circumstances where you get a save with Ghost Sound. It's really hard to "study" a noise intently; in real life, humans have much better visual perception than auditory perception.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
lostpike 07-10-07, 05:19 PM	Is seeing and hearing an illusion enough to satisfy the "interaction" requirement to get a will save or do you actually have to touch an illusion?
Some_call_me_Tim 07-10-07, 05:52 PM	Is seeing and hearing an illusion enough to satisfy the "interaction" requirement to get a will save or do you actually have to touch an illusion? Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.[emphasis added] Just because a character hears or sees the illusion is not enough, but they don't actually have to touch it either. "Study carefully" in my book would be asking for more specific information about the area/object or asking to make for a search check for example. Anything that makes me think the PC is suspicious of the illusion. I would not require them to ask if it is an illusion. "Interact" wouldn't necessarily mean touching directly either. Throwing something at the object or trying to cast a spell should be enough.
Maesto 07-11-07, 12:52 AM	Do you get a will save against ghost sound then?
jstorrie 07-11-07, 03:48 AM	To 'interact' with something a PC needs to take some action that would have consequences based on the illusion. Poking at an illusory pit with a stick, greeting an illusory guard, swinging at an illusory monster, etc. These are all cases where the PC would expect some consequence based on what they believe to be true–the save is to see if they 'buy in' to the illusion, or realize that there's discrepancy between what they thought they saw and what is actually happening. Merely seeing or hearing something is not enough. There shouldn't be that many cases where you get a save against a Ghost Sound.
Some_call_me_Tim 07-11-07, 12:48 PM	Do you get a will save against ghost sound then?Sure do. All you have to do is interact with it or study it carefully. Suitable interaction might include yelling at the "people" singing and finding they don't react. To 'interact' with something a PC needs to take some action that would have consequences based on the illusion.Don't forget the rule I quoted above; studying the sound intently also would grant a saving throw. A lot depends on the nature of sound and the length of time spent listening. A sound that seems to be approaching will be revealed false if after some length of time nothing ever arrives. I kind of imagine ghost sound to be like a small tape recording playing a loop of sound over and over. At first listen it might sound authentic, but after listening to it a while, the never-changing nature of it will be obvious.
KarmaInferno 07-11-07, 05:59 PM	It greatly depends on circumstance. If it's just an illusion on the street that you happen to be walking by, just seeing it isn't likely to warrant a Will save to disbelieve. Your character has no reason to think it might be "fake", and it's not really immediately pertinent to whatever you are doing at the time. In a combat, it's trickier. If you slash at the illusion, sure, make that save. If it's on the other end of the battle and you have no reason to think it's anything other than real, probably not. To me, it boils down to "Do you have a reason to suspect it's fake?" There's always exceptions, of course. I play a Church Inquisitor - it's a waste of time to try and use illusions against them, as they get an automatic save as soon as they look at the illusion. With the will save bonus a divine caster usually has, that amounts to a near automatic disbelief. -karma
Maesto 07-11-07, 10:10 PM	Hmm, I wonder if a church inquisitor automatically makes a save vs ghost sound, 'coz he ain't seeing that! The only time I've ever used ghost sound in combat was as an invisible NPC in the woods. He cast ghost sound to convince some party members that he was on the other side of the track, and the party split ;-)
Frumpkis 07-12-07, 02:43 AM	I once used a Ghost Sound sorta in combat. It was a recon mission at an interactive, and our completely invisible party had to sneak into a room with guards in it. The door into the room was already slightly ajar, but we had to figure out a way to open it wider so our party would fit through, without being noticed by the guards. My bard cast a Ghost Sound towards the corridor on the opposite side of the room; the guards went to investigate, and we successfully got into the room. As a DM, I had a player cast Ghost Sound to distract a dire lion or something (so that the lion went to investigate the noise instead of charging the low-level tank). In most cases I'd say, it's rare to be in circumstances where you get a save with Ghost Sound. It's really hard to "study" a noise intently; in real life, humans have much better visual perception than auditory perception.