Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord Yod 01-15-07, 04:33 PM	My party is partway through section two of this wonderful adventure, and I was just curious to see if anybody else is having a similar experience to us. Thing is, this mod just seems way too easy(combat-wise). I'm wondering if that's just because of our party balance/composition/tactics, DM foibles, or what? Party: (levels are current, some started out a level lower) grey elf wizard 5 - Int 23, glitterdust/unluck/haste caster high elf druid 6 - going for nature's warrior, wildshapes into leapard form mostly, has an elven hound companion w/AC24 or 25 half-orc fighter 6 - combat trick monkey, with imp. disarm, imp. trip, imp. grapple, fights with heavy flail human fighter 6 - shock trooper greatsword-wielder, avg damage 30/hit halfling fighter/rogue/scout (total level 8)- skirmishing/sneaker, rolls a lot of dice for damage :) human cleric 9 - radiant servant of pholtus with DSP, caster level up around 20 most of the time. Casts buffs and the occasional cometfall. During part one, the druid PC practically sat on the sidelines with a set of pom-poms. The monsters that you would typically consider to be problematic(due to lots of attacks, or huge damage mods, or whatever) tend to be killed in one hit from our shock trooper. The mook-type monsters generally last long enough to miss once or twice before being cleaved. So when we were finishing up part one, we told the DM that it seemed a little easy. He said there's not much he can do, as that's the way the module goes. I suggested he combine the next two encounters together, as that might up the challenge a bit. Really all it did was make it so we could all do things in combat, and the fight lasted long enough for the haste to wear off. Now, I realize that we have a full table and the mod was balanced for 4 PC's. But it's not like we're all playing down - we're just a hair under APL 7. And yeah, having a 9th level cleric makes things a bit easier, but it isn't as if he's cheesing out GMW or anything - he casts recitation, prayer, bless, and the occasional damaging spell(nothing crazy - scorching ray usually) I had heard that this mod was tough, and that is certainly not what we're seeing. So what I'm asking is, are other parties playing this having similar experiences? Does the difficulty ramp up a ton? Is my DM just screwing up somehow? Or is it just that our party is really cohesive? (P.S.: PLEASE don't put any spoilers in)
Britt 01-15-07, 04:38 PM	Let's see, the list of items in your party that most people consider either a powergaming combination or in the realm of 'broken': - Shock Trooper - RSoP - Grey Elf Wizard - Half-orc Fighter - DSP - Druids, in general :p Then add in that you have 8th and 9th level characters, a table of six, one of each iconic class, the two extra spots filled with a druid and another fighter; it's pretty clear why combat seems easy to me.
trollbill 01-15-07, 04:45 PM	Now, I realize that we have a full table and the mod was balanced for 4 PC's. But it's not like we're all playing down - we're just a hair under APL 7. And yeah, having a 9th level cleric makes things a bit easier, but it isn't as if he's cheesing out GMW or anything - he casts recitation, prayer, bless, and the occasional damaging spell(nothing crazy - scorching ray usually) Well, that's your problem right there. You miscalculated your APL. You have 40 levels worth of players. Divide that by the 6 players and you get 6 2/3s which rounds up to 7. Then add 1 more because you have 6 players. By LG rules you can ONLY play APL 8 with this group. The first two parts of the mod are only APL 6. So technically you are in violation of the rules. Albeit, since you gained levels after the first AR, the first section was probably a legal table, and I doubt they would come down on you just because circumstances change that for the second section. But at the very least you are absolutley the most powerful you could be and still play the mod, and it sounds like you have several power builds in there to boot. I am not surprised you have it easy.
codyknotts 01-15-07, 04:47 PM	As a DM I have found that RHOD is too easy except for the Boss fights. The big baddie fights are ok, but generally there is not enough of the bad guys of low level or not enough of them to assist the baddies. As much as can be said without spoilers. It would have been nice if the enemy was organized and acted like a military machine. Then the module would have been smoking. Instead it is generally a walkover. I too have had to combine fights to make it interesting. Otherwise it is just weak fight after weak fight. Wow impressive. Monsters spell choices are lame usually. Maxed out bad guys would have made more sense and a challenge.
Lomiat 01-15-07, 04:47 PM	You began the mod well above APL, and your DM said he didn't think there was anything he could do (even though the mod allows the DM a little flexibility). Yeah, it's going to be easy for you. The question is: Are you just bragging? Or are you asking a question about what can be done? If you're asking what can be done, you need to find a way to play down or encourage your DM to use all the flexibility that's available to him. Or... you could just do a bunch of really stupid stuff and see if that makes things significantly tougher for you. I mean, if you're so tough that the little baddies can't touch you, forget about them and run straight for the dudes in charge. Take on everything all at once. My guess is that will result in a challenge (not a winnable one, but you'll stop finding yourself concerned about everything being too easy).
LachlarlanIII 01-15-07, 04:59 PM	My party is partway through section two of this wonderful adventure, and I was just curious to see if anybody else is having a similar experience to us. Thing is, this mod just seems way too easy(combat-wise). I'm wondering if that's just because of our party balance/composition/tactics, DM foibles, or what? Party: (levels are current, some started out a level lower) grey elf wizard 5 - Int 23, glitterdust/unluck/haste caster high elf druid 6 - going for nature's warrior, wildshapes into leapard form mostly, has an elven hound companion w/AC24 or 25 half-orc fighter 6 - combat trick monkey, with imp. disarm, imp. trip, imp. grapple, fights with heavy flail human fighter 6 - shock trooper greatsword-wielder, avg damage 30/hit halfling fighter/rogue/scout (total level 8)- skirmishing/sneaker, rolls a lot of dice for damage :) human cleric 9 - radiant servant of pholtus with DSP, caster level up around 20 most of the time. Casts buffs and the occasional cometfall. During part one, the druid PC practically sat on the sidelines with a set of pom-poms. The monsters that you would typically consider to be problematic(due to lots of attacks, or huge damage mods, or whatever) tend to be killed in one hit from our shock trooper. The mook-type monsters generally last long enough to miss once or twice before being cleaved. So when we were finishing up part one, we told the DM that it seemed a little easy. He said there's not much he can do, as that's the way the module goes. I suggested he combine the next two encounters together, as that might up the challenge a bit. Really all it did was make it so we could all do things in combat, and the fight lasted long enough for the haste to wear off. Now, I realize that we have a full table and the mod was balanced for 4 PC's. But it's not like we're all playing down - we're just a hair under APL 7. And yeah, having a 9th level cleric makes things a bit easier, but it isn't as if he's cheesing out GMW or anything - he casts recitation, prayer, bless, and the occasional damaging spell(nothing crazy - scorching ray usually) I had heard that this mod was tough, and that is certainly not what we're seeing. So what I'm asking is, are other parties playing this having similar experiences? Does the difficulty ramp up a ton? Is my DM just screwing up somehow? Or is it just that our party is really cohesive? (P.S.: PLEASE don't put any spoilers in) Heh, your group sounds a lot like ours. We're halfway through part 5 right now. Finished parts 1-4 last weekend :P We're currently have: Me Half-Orc Bbn1/Ftr9 - Can/Door opener, trap-detector Centaur Mon6/Bbn1/Brd1 - Spiked Chain specialist heading into DD Human Bbn/Ftr 7 or 8 Human Wiz 9 Halfling Theurge 10 Human RSoP 8 Our group is working together really well. Good coordination can make or break an encounter. In part 4 and so far in part 5 we've spent significantly more resources per combat than we spent during combats in the previous three. The difficulty ramps up quite nicely I've found.
Lord Yod 01-15-07, 05:06 PM	You miscalculated your APL. You have 40 levels worth of players. Divide that by the 6 players and you get 6 2/3s which rounds up to 7. Then add 1 more because you have 6 players. By LG rules you can ONLY play APL 8 with this group. Going into part 1 we had: 5, 5, 6, 6, 7, 8; all eligible for APL 6. You're right, I did miscalculate our APL. However, I refer you to the LGCS: If the table of characters exceeds the maximum APL of the adventure, but the individual characters are all eligible to play that adventure, than that table plays at the maximum APL allowed in the adventure. I'm not 100% positive, but I believe the APL goes up with each part, so we should be ok. The question is: Are you just bragging? Or are you asking a question about what can be done? I never brag until the mod is over. :) I'm asking more to see if there's anything that can(or should) be done. It's entirely possible the mod is supposed to play like this. (For example, they may stop sending out mooks and start sending out war troll monks, or something like that) Also, I'd like to know if it's just the DM - perhaps he misunderstood something, or doesn't exactly know what he's doing. Honestly, I was expecting a lot more challenge out of this adventure. The last mod we played with these PC's was Fane of the Drow, and it was pretty hairy for a bit.
jstorrie 01-15-07, 05:08 PM	You're above APL and your party is well-optimized, and probably well-balanced as well if that rogue/scout has chosen the right skills. Should you really expect APL6 mods to give a well-built APL8 party a hard time? Imagine what the mod would be like if everyone in your group had two fewer character levels, because that's what it was written for.
Britt 01-15-07, 05:15 PM	Honestly, I was expecting a lot more challenge out of this adventure. The last mod we played with these PC's was Fane of the Drow, and it was pretty hairy for a bit. That's likely becausee you were lower level and things are more unpredictable at lower levels, where the dice are more important.
pedr 01-15-07, 05:17 PM	You'll be OK APL-wise: trollbill has the rules wrong. Stupid as it seems, a table full of level-nine characters could play the first part of Red Hand. It's maximum APL is 6, which means that 10th level characters can't play it, but that's the only restriction. The advice at the start was that characters ought to be 5th level and half-way to 6th and that higher level characters wouldn't enjoy the combats as much. We have a party which started RSop7, Alienist6, Wiz/Clr6, Clr5, Ftr5, Mnk/Clr3 and we're doing quite well so far but not feeling /too/ overpowered.
trollbill 01-15-07, 05:28 PM	Going into part 1 we had: 5, 5, 6, 6, 7, 8; all eligible for APL 6. You're right, I did miscalculate our APL. However, I refer you to the LGCS. I'm not 100% positive, but I believe the APL goes up with each part, so we should be ok. I stand corrected. It is legal if the only option is APL 6. But the point is you are playing with an APL 8 party in an APL 6 mod. So it shouldn't be surprising you are having an easy time of it. The first two parts are APL 6, then it goes up 1 APL every part after that.
Lomiat 01-15-07, 08:08 PM	I never brag until the mod is over. :) I'm asking more to see if there's anything that can(or should) be done. It's entirely possible the mod is supposed to play like this. (For example, they may stop sending out mooks and start sending out war troll monks, or something like that) Also, I'd like to know if it's just the DM - perhaps he misunderstood something, or doesn't exactly know what he's doing. Hey, that's okay. I wasn't trying to make a judgment as much as to actually figure out what your purpose was. There are enough people on these boards who post to let each other know how cool they are and how well their PCs kill everything, and there's nothing really wrong with that. But it wouldn't do anyone any good to offer suggestions if you just wanted us to know that you were kicking... stuff... and taking names. But really... Everyone at some point is tempted to spit the party. If nothing's challenging you on a given day, and you need some spice in your life, give it a go. Double the victory points, double the fun!
rockondon 01-15-07, 08:31 PM	well this makes me feel a little better. We haven't begun RHoD yet but when we do our party will be 5, 5, 5, 6, 6, 9 and I've been kinda concerned that it will kick our butts. At least half our group are kinda noobish and have mediocre builds. The only thing I've heard up til now was from another local group who are more experienced players and with slightly higher level guys than ours and they said they had a tough time surviving the combats.
Lord Yod 01-15-07, 08:58 PM	Hey, that's okay. I wasn't trying to make a judgment as much as to actually figure out what your purpose was.[quote] That's what I assumed, thus the :) [quote]But really... Everyone at some point is tempted to spit the party. If nothing's challenging you on a given day, and you need some spice in your life, give it a go. Double the victory points, double the fun! Hasn't come up yet, but this will be the first thing I suggest. And thanks to everyone for responding. I know we have a powerful party, but I've played with some uber-builds before and still been challenged. Hearing that the difficulty ramps up is really great. Thanks.
Arinaad 01-15-07, 09:35 PM	We decided to take this one on too. The party consists of 1 front line fighter type (lvl6), 2 grapplers (lvls 4&5), 1 bard lvl4, a wizard lvl 7 and a cleric lvl 7. The combats in the first 3 chapters were easy. The wizard focuses on buffing and battlefield controll, and the cleric is buffing and healing. The bard buffs as well, and the other three beat things down.
Samwise 01-16-07, 12:33 AM	If you play the first part of RHoD with anything above a high APL 6 table, you are going to have an easy time verging on a cakewalk. If you play it with more than one 7th level PC, or any 8th or 9th level PC your DM can likely skip to just handing you the ARs, as barring ridiculous luck you are unlikely to even notice any encounters are occurring. RHoD is not like a regular LG adventure. It is tiered for a single power level, and the challenge drops off very quickly once you exceed that level.
chesspiece 01-16-07, 09:16 AM	The module as-written is designed for a party of 4 level-5 PCs. The expectation seems to be a level bump near the end of each of the 5 chapters. Towards the end of Chapter 5, a Home Group should be playing with a party of 4 level-10s. LG encourages a starting party of 6 PCs in the level 5.5-6 range. Assuming max XP, you should advance ~3.5 levels. Towards the end of Chapter 5, you should be playing with a party of 6 level-9s. By CR & APL rules, that would be equivalent to… a party of 4 level-10s. In the early game, LG gives a small advantage in starting level but a significant advantage in party size. Also, I believe that LG has a well-earned reputation for difficulty, and many of the Players / PCs have proven they can meet these challenges. RHoD is written for “vanilla” Players / PCs. Some may not have access to any splat-books or they may not have aptitude for PC optimization. However, a Home Game DM can assist a party in trouble in ways an LG Judge can’t (faster XP allotment, helpful NPCs, more loot, etc.). In the late game, LG ends up behind in level (unless the party started with level 7-8 PCs) but still has a numeric advantage. Then you will have a truer feel for the adventure’s designed difficulty. IMHO, LG made 3 good decisions. First, they allowed / encouraged higher levels at the beginning. Although this makes the early part of the adventure easier, it greatly reduces the chance of death since that could cause recurring problems (death spirals / potentially table collapse). Second, they ensured that a typical LG party should be close in power to a Home Game group towards the end of RHoD. This should ensure that the Players get to feel the epic danger intended in the final chapters of the module. Third, they didn’t want to give away more XPs. It’s their right to limit advancement rate of PCs and I'm glad they didn't give significant favouritism to ADP modules over Cores / Regionals. The Circle preserved the XP : TU ratio and ensured that an LG party should be able to survive / enjoy the module without needing to break for additional modules between chapters (in order for PCs to re-level after deaths). Just my thoughts.
CrystalBlue 01-16-07, 03:32 PM	Which RHoD have you all been playing?! O.o;; Our group is a little screwed up. See below... Fighter 3 / Wizard 3 (going Spellsword) Fighter 1 / Paladin 5 (of Pholtos, and with no Wis) Some type of build going Dwarven Defender 5 Some scout build going Dread Commando 6 Rogue 2 / Fighter 2 / Swashbuckler 1 (going Dread Commando) Wizard 3 / Shadow Template 1 (don't know about him yet) So that's 6+6+5+6+5+4. That's 32/6, which gives us 5.33. Full table up to APL 6. And you guys say this thing is easy? We're on the APL, and the damn thing's nearly TPK'ed us twice! >.< Please, please, please don't say it's easy. That will make me sad and angry at the same time...and I don't think I can rant AND cry. The battles push the limit, in my opinion, on what is fair and playable. Let me tell you, when you have to burn multiple favors just to stay alive in one battle, that crosses the line of fair. Now, I know what you're going to say. "You don't have a cleric and your arcane isn't powerful enough". Guess what? The cleric wouldn't have helpes as most things one-shotted us. And I might not be very good arcane, but I didn't think everything was going to be so tough that I'd have to burn through four MIC sheets worth of scrolls to kill ONE battle!
Britt 01-16-07, 03:45 PM	See, that's a fun party! Your characters will start coming into their power curves about when this thing starts getting harder, it sounds like, and it will be challenging and fun the whole way through.
amnuxoll 01-16-07, 04:17 PM	Our party started out as: Archer 7 Mystic Theurge 8 Wizard 3+1* Cleric 5 Hexblade 4+1* Ranger 8 *=character has the "Dark" template which is +1 to ECL So, in other words, not twinked and not overpowered for the APL. I've found the challenge to be just about right so far. We've played parts 1-4. There have been some really tough fights and some not-so-tough fights. No one has died but we've not been 100% successful in all our combats either. More to the point, I've greatly enjoyed it. The story is both compelling and fun. (My archer just named his longbow "Mira" for those who are in the know.) If I had any complaints at all it's that the story is a bit "railroady". But I don't see how that can be avoided easily. :AMN:
CrystalBlue 01-16-07, 04:19 PM	Harder? You mean it's not hard enough. Ahaha...Britt, you silly...silly...Circle-member, you. That's a joke, right? Right...? Britt, you're not laughing...please laugh. *whimper* My shadowcaster doesn't wanna die...cause I know we're gonna be seriously hosed from now on. I mean...we ran out of spells, out of consumables...and we weren't even half-way done with the first part. It seriously looks bad for all of us all of the time.
Japangirl 01-16-07, 04:37 PM	I haven't started playing it yet, but the party I'm looking at is: Wizard 6 Wizard (5 or 6) Cleric 5 Cleric 7 Scout 4/Barb 2 Bard 5 How survivable does this look? Someone in the area told us that we would have a really hard time because we lack a true frontliner and physical damage.
Haro 01-16-07, 04:44 PM	Wizard 6 Wizard (5 or 6) Cleric 5 Cleric 7 Scout 4/Barb 2 Bard 5 How survivable does this look? Someone in the area told us that we would have a really hard time because we lack a true frontliner and physical damage. Because of the double up with wizard and cleric, you have plenty of flexibility. The party can get around the lack of a true frontliner with haste and inspire courage, or a prayer if there's time. Looks like a really fun party to me! Joe
NiTessine 01-16-07, 05:55 PM	Our group is starting Part II next Sunday. The lineup consists of a human paladin/fighter 5, human fighter 5, wild elf barbarian/cleric of Rillifane Rallathil 4 (who will level up after the first encounter), a half-orc cleric of Pelor 6, a half-orc barbarian/bard 5, and a dwarf fighter 5. They may be lacking when it comes to cerebral stuff and finesse, but their combat ability and sheer damage output are devastating. It's still been a good challenge, though. I suspect Part II should be a lot harder for them. We shall see. In any case, we've been having great fun with the module.
Lord Yod 01-17-07, 08:55 PM	Fighter 3 / Wizard 3 (going Spellsword) Fighter 1 / Paladin 5 (of Pholtos, and with no Wis) Some type of build going Dwarven Defender 5 Some scout build going Dread Commando 6 Rogue 2 / Fighter 2 / Swashbuckler 1 (going Dread Commando) Wizard 3 / Shadow Template 1 (don't know about him yet) CrystalBlue, please don't take any of the following as criticism, it's meant in the best way. I look at this and I see multiple mutt-builds that haven't come together yet. I'd be wary bringing any of these characters into a core special. -Ftr3/Wiz3(why ftr3?) is a *really* tough level to be at, since you're bab +4, probably have about 35 hp, can't wear armor without ASF, and only have 2nd level spells. Unless the player recognizes those problems and plays very soundly, it's really easy to start rescue-loops with a character like that. (I know, I had a very similar build that got into that trouble all the time.) It sorta sounds like this is your PC, if so I'd be interested in seeing your build. (My other PC is Ftr1/Wiz2 going spellsword) -Ftr1/Pal5 sounds like a really viable character to me, actually. Good cha? Mounted build? -Dwarven Defender is an iffy build. Some of the ways to get into it are really tough, others are kinda weak in spots. (Barb2/Rgr3/Deepwarden2/DDX has a REALLY painful spot around level 5) Does this guy cork for you? (Side note: one of the PC's in my home game is doing the aforementioned deepwarden, and from levels 1-6 had AC 13. Yes 13.) -Scout going for DC6 sounds like it might be a spring attacker? Scouts are awesome outside of combat, but in my experience they have trouble contributing enough damage, especially at APL 6 and up. -Rog2/Ftr2/Swa1 - wow, look at that will save. Is this guy a TWF-er? I've seen a build like this in play before, and he dished out a handful of dice every hit. Needs good party flanking tactics to work, however. -Wiz3/Shadow - I don't know what the shadow template gives you, but I'd think twice before bringing a 3rd-level PC into an APL 6 game. (Yes it's a 4th PC, but does the template really give a level worth of stuff?) What kind of spells does he cast? That alone could have a huge impact, since it seems like you have plenty of damage output with 4 melee combatants. The main things I see are the lack of buff support and healing. No haste means you only have one guy that attacks more than once per round. No cleric means you're using sticks for healing(never fun), and you have no bless/prayer/recitation. Maybe the wizard/shadow guy could start fights by casting buffs? (Bull's strength on the scout probably means a lot less misses, etc) Is he (shudder) a direct-damage mage? Again, I don't mean any of this as criticism, it's an honest attempt to help. The main causes of yawning in my party have been the haste/recitation combo, and seeing as you'll need to get 2 more levels to get one haste/day hurts.
Cynric 01-18-07, 12:10 AM	OUr part started out as the following and the Gm has tweaked things a bit as we rolled through part 1 without breaking a sweat, Part two was another matter but we got through ok. Fighter 6 Greatsword weilding maniac Bbn 2\fighter 4 Dwarf going occoult slayer cork build Cleric 6\RSOP1 who refuses to use insignia's of healing Wizard 5\Elemental Savant2 (Fire) Bard 7 with Lyric Spell and a cha of 22 Wiz 2\Druid 3 going for Arcane Heirophant. All in all we handled everything well. At one point the GM was getting annoyed that he could not throw anything at us we could not deal with, but we had so many buffs down so quick in every combat that everything got squished hard.
jhorred 01-18-07, 12:21 AM	Slightly off topic, but still on RHoD. One of our newer players is going to run this for our group. She'd like to have someone that's DMing or has DMed it that she can ask questions about the mod. I can help her with general rules queries, but nothing specific as I'm going to play too. Anyone willing to help a new GM please send me a PM. Thanks.
Howie23 01-18-07, 01:42 AM	Slightly off topic, but still on RHoD. One of our newer players is going to run this for our group. She'd like to have someone that's DMing or has DMed it that she can ask questions about the mod. I can help her with general rules queries, but nothing specific as I'm going to play too. Anyone willing to help a new GM please send me a PM. Thanks. I'll drop you a PM as well. There is a judges only newsgroup specifically for RHoD judges, which can be found at: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/RPGA-RHoD/ David
Mortepierre 01-18-07, 09:34 AM	I haven't started playing it yet, but the party I'm looking at is: Wizard 6 Wizard (5 or 6) Cleric 5 Cleric 7 Scout 4/Barb 2 Bard 5 How survivable does this look? Someone in the area told us that we would have a really hard time because we lack a true frontliner and physical damage. I agree with him. My party has been through parts 1 & 2 so far. While there are some encounters your team will likely walk over with ease, there are others they'll dearly wish they had a guy with lots of hit pts and packing some serious punch. My advice would be to dump the Cleric 5 for a frontliner. Then again, who knows? Everyone can score a crit. and even the worst enemy can roll a nat. 1 on a save, so you might have an easy time. But that will depend a lot on just how favorably lady Fate looks upon you...
trollbill 01-18-07, 09:39 AM	I agree with him. My party has been through parts 1 & 2 so far. While there are some encounters your team will likely walk over with ease, there are others they'll dearly wish they had a guy with lots of hit pts and packing some serious punch. My advice would be to dump the Cleric 5 for a frontliner. Then again, who knows? Everyone can score a crit. and even the worst enemy can roll a nat. 1 on a save, so you might have an easy time. But that will depend a lot on just how favorably lady Fate looks upon you... I'd say it depends on the builds of the Clerics. If they are both caster-based then there are definitely going to be problems. If one or both are melee based, however, 2 wizards, 2 clerics and a bard ought to be able to hit him with enough buffs to turn him into a real powerhouse.
CrystalBlue 01-18-07, 10:28 AM	-Ftr3/Wiz3(why ftr3?) is a *really* tough level to be at, since you're bab +4, probably have about 35 hp, can't wear armor without ASF, and only have 2nd level spells. Unless the player recognizes those problems and plays very soundly, it's really easy to start rescue-loops with a character like that. (I know, I had a very similar build that got into that trouble all the time.) It sorta sounds like this is your PC, if so I'd be interested in seeing your build. (My other PC is Ftr1/Wiz2 going spellsword) No, this is not mine. I don't like the spellsword concept at all. >.< I believe he was incapacitated for 2 encounters and he's been making bad decisions. He's been memming things like Scorching Ray, Ice Knife, and True Strike. He's got Power Attack, but beyond that I don't know what his build is. -Ftr1/Pal5 sounds like a really viable character to me, actually. Good cha? Mounted build? Friend of mine. Yes, actually, he is. He's our main damage dealer, though I have to teach him to stop weilding a shield and start two-handing his lance. >.< He finally got power attack but is always hesitant to use it. And he keeps positioning himself as the tank and flanker. That's NOT his role. He's the ride-by nuke, but he almost always places himself in a very bad place and loses out on his lance bonuses. SPOILER ALERT!!! SNIP -Dwarven Defender is an iffy build. Some of the ways to get into it are really tough, others are kinda weak in spots. (Barb2/Rgr3/Deepwarden2/DDX has a REALLY painful spot around level 5) Does this guy cork for you? (Side note: one of the PC's in my home game is doing the aforementioned deepwarden, and from levels 1-6 had AC 13. Yes 13.) He's our first tank. He's got the insane HP and a 23 normal AC most of the time, topping out at 28 or 29 when he wants to. He's actually what's been saving the party most of the time. Things need to assist to hit him. -Scout going for DC6 sounds like it might be a spring attacker? Scouts are awesome outside of combat, but in my experience they have trouble contributing enough damage, especially at APL 6 and up. He's been giving us a lot of damage, actually. He's going Dread Commando, yes, and he weilds a bastard sword most of the time. He springs in, damages, and then springs back out. -Rog2/Ftr2/Swa1 - wow, look at that will save. Is this guy a TWF-er? I've seen a build like this in play before, and he dished out a handful of dice every hit. Needs good party flanking tactics to work, however. Another friend of mine. That's what we've been trying to give him, is flanking. But the way paladin thinks and the fact the dwarf doesn't move that much limits his sneak attack. I wasn't going to have him TWF just yet. He's going Dervish next level and will start to pick up scimitars and a falchion, if I can find him one, and after a while he'll go Dread Commando. I wanted to keep his BAB fairly high as well, as he'll be Combat Experticing a lot. I think his normal AC is a 20, 21 when dodging, and 26 when full CEing. He's a back-up tank. Though, I've got to find him some amulets of natural armor and a better Ring of Prot. He's already got the +1 Mitheral Breastplate. -Wiz3/Shadow - I don't know what the shadow template gives you, but I'd think twice before bringing a 3rd-level PC into an APL 6 game. (Yes it's a 4th PC, but does the template really give a level worth of stuff?) What kind of spells does he cast? That alone could have a huge impact, since it seems like you have plenty of damage output with 4 melee combatants. This is my character. The template gives me +8 to Hide, +6 to Move Silently, +10 movement, the ability to Hide in Plain Sight, 10 Cold resistance. I plan on making this guys a Wiz 3/ShadowCaster 3/Shadow Template 1/Nocturemancer X. My Wiz specilizes in Illusion, but I've found no places to use said illusions. I have Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (Illusion). Problem is, my Int is 20 and my Cha is only 12, which is going to hurt the DC of my mysteries. So I'm debating where to put my 4th level stat bump. The main things I see are the lack of buff support and healing. No haste means you only have one guy that attacks more than once per round. No cleric means you're using sticks for healing(never fun), and you have no bless/prayer/recitation. Maybe the wizard/shadow guy could start fights by casting buffs? (Bull's strength on the scout probably means a lot less misses, etc) Is he (shudder) a direct-damage mage? We knew going into it that we'd have no healer. And we've barely managed to survive. The paladin is going Hospitalier this level and is thinking about taking Leadership. I told him it's a good feat, but we can't use it in Red Hand because we already have 6 people. *sigh* A 5th level cleric would have been very nice... Again, I don't mean any of this as criticism, it's an honest attempt to help. The main causes of yawning in my party have been the haste/recitation combo, and seeing as you'll need to get 2 more levels to get one haste/day hurts. The only person I could have played Red Hand with was my wizard. And my two friends could only play as their other characters. I don't know how to change our luck for the second round, honestly. I'm gonna mass-buy scrolls on this AR and make sure we all have 5+ potions on us at all times. Otherwise, we will fail.
Mortepierre 01-18-07, 11:36 AM	I'd say it depends on the builds of the Clerics. If they are both caster-based then there are definitely going to be problems. If one or both are melee based, however, 2 wizards, 2 clerics and a bard ought to be able to hit him with enough buffs to turn him into a real powerhouse. I agree but "wasting" buffs on the cleric(s) instead of doing some crowd-control/crowd-damage and team-enhancement is counterproductive for a group with so many casters. Besides, all it takes is one enemy with Dispel Magic and your clerics can kiss their buffs good-bye.
Mortepierre 01-18-07, 11:39 AM	This is my character. The template gives me +8 to Hide, +6 to Move Silently, +10 movement, the ability to Hide in Plain Sight, 10 Cold resistance. I plan on making this guys a Wiz 3/ShadowCaster 3/Shadow Template 1/Nocturemancer X. Call me curious but in which LG region did you manage to get access to that template and to those classes?
Lord Yod 01-18-07, 12:49 PM	No, this is not mine. I don't like the spellsword concept at all. >.< I believe he was incapacitated for 2 encounters and he's been making bad decisions. He's been memming things like Scorching Ray, Ice Knife, and True Strike. He's got Power Attack, but beyond that I don't know what his build is.[quote] That's pretty much what I was talking about. Talk to him about his spell selection - you've already got a ride-by charger, if he can fall out of his chair and hit the floor then he'll do more damage then the rest of the party put together. But that only happens when other party members work to make it happen - this guy can probably get his AC the highest in the party, but he won't unless he sees how good it is. Scorching Ray is nice, but has he considered Mirror Image instead? Just cast it and run into the middle of the bad guys, get them to bunch up so the paladin can do his thing. True Strike is ok, but it's best use is for disarms. (At least, in my experience, barring the occasional need to throw an axe 100 feet) [quote]He finally got power attack but is always hesitant to use it. And he keeps positioning himself as the tank and flanker. That's NOT his role. He's the ride-by nuke, but he almost always places himself in a very bad place and loses out on his lance bonuses. What I've found helps with this situation is to get together and do a little mock combat to show him the numbers. (A friend plays an archer, and he wouldn't always use Rapid) If you show him how great that 3d8+36+strx1.5 is, he'll probably see that it's the best way to end fights. As far as power attack, people find their own way - maybe he's used it and missed a few too many times? SPOILER ALERT!!! For both of those fights we just pulled out the stops with spellcasting, I can easily see them being problems without an at-APL cleric or wizard. He's our first tank. He's got the insane HP and a 23 normal AC most of the time, topping out at 28 or 29 when he wants to. He's actually what's been saving the party most of the time. Things need to assist to hit him. Awesome, like I said there's ways to build 'em tough and ways to go that are more... painful. If you use this guy to pin the enemy down, then your paladin and scout can move around the flanks and take people out. Try running through some practice fights with different placement to figure out how best to position each PC - sort of a tactical practice session, if you will. He's been giving us a lot of damage, actually. He's going Dread Commando, yes, and he weilds a bastard sword most of the time. He springs in, damages, and then springs back out. The best part about these guys is that they can get in and damage the guy who's actually giving you trouble, without having to work past all the mooks. Sounds like he's doing that already. Another friend of mine. That's what we've been trying to give him, is flanking. But the way paladin thinks and the fact the dwarf doesn't move that much limits his sneak attack. I wasn't going to have him TWF just yet. He's going Dervish next level and will start to pick up scimitars and a falchion, if I can find him one, and after a while he'll go Dread Commando. I wanted to keep his BAB fairly high as well, as he'll be Combat Experticing a lot. I think his normal AC is a 20, 21 when dodging, and 26 when full CEing. He's a back-up tank. Though, I've got to find him some amulets of natural armor and a better Ring of Prot. He's already got the +1 Mitheral Breastplate. -If he doesn't have TWF, then there's no reason not to move and attack. Have him move so that there will be a flank when the scout does his spring thing, while readying an attack for it. (I can't tell you how many times that tactic has given me trouble in APL 2 mods, damn judges that know what they're doing) -Amulet of Natural Armor? Are you sure that's better than a Con amulet? This is my character. The template gives me +8 to Hide, +6 to Move Silently, +10 movement, the ability to Hide in Plain Sight, 10 Cold resistance. I plan on making this guys a Wiz 3/ShadowCaster 3/Shadow Template 1/Nocturemancer X. My Wiz specilizes in Illusion, but I've found no places to use said illusions. I have Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (Illusion). Problem is, my Int is 20 and my Cha is only 12, which is going to hurt the DC of my mysteries. So I'm debating where to put my 4th level stat bump. Wow, neat template. HiPS is really awesome, is there some sort of limit to it?(Like the Shadowdancer 'within 10 feet of a shadow') What book is this stuff from, Tome of Magic? I don't know anything about Shadowcaster or Nocturemancer, but my gut says always bump your Int. You can always take CWI and craft a cloak of cha to make up for that. And if you haven't found a way to use your illusions, either you aren't trying hard enough or your DM doesn't know how they work. A simple Silent Image can create (at your level) a 7-10ft cube 'wall', which can do a lot to cut off enemy archer support. Remember they need to interact with it to get the will save, not just look at it. (There was an article on the DnD site regarding illusions, unfortunately I can't find it at the moment) Minor Image can create the illusion of creatures, which is pretty awesome since you can pretend that you have reinforcements coming. (Think elephants) We knew going into it that we'd have no healer. And we've barely managed to survive. The paladin is going Hospitalier this level and is thinking about taking Leadership. I told him it's a good feat, but we can't use it in Red Hand because we already have 6 people. *sigh* A 5th level cleric would have been very nice... Hearing that he wants to take Leadership makes me cringe - it's an awesome feat, but you'll be 9th level when you finish RHoD so take it then! Divine Might lets him add triple his Cha bonus to those spirited charges, one of my favorites. And there's always Extra Smiting. The only person I could have played Red Hand with was my wizard. And my two friends could only play as their other characters. I don't know how to change our luck for the second round, honestly. I'm gonna mass-buy scrolls on this AR and make sure we all have 5+ potions on us at all times. Otherwise, we will fail. Assuming you're not going to replace PC's(which sounds a bit like being dropped from a football team, and I wouldn't be cool with it), the only answer is stepping up your play. You've got a 20 Int, have you tried just ripping it up with glitterdust? There's also Distract Assailant. Both enable the rogue to get sneak attacks, which will signifigantly increase your damage/round. I'd have everyone load up on cure sticks, and then buy as many big-effect scrolls as you can. I'd also recommend Ray of Enfeeblement as a good neutralizer, I've ended fights on round 1 with that one. It seems like you've got a good party going on, just that not everyone knows their role within it that well. I'd work on the unit cohesion, perhaps by running some practice fights on an off day or something. Good luck and let me know how it turns out!
Japangirl 01-18-07, 05:45 PM	I'd say it depends on the builds of the Clerics. If they are both caster-based then there are definitely going to be problems. If one or both are melee based, however, 2 wizards, 2 clerics and a bard ought to be able to hit him with enough buffs to turn him into a real powerhouse. They are both primary casters, but one has really high AC and buffs himself to make it higher all the time. He's our "stand there and take it" person. My wizard tends to focus on debuffing most of the time (slow, glitterdust, grease, etc) because of her 23 Int so high DCs.
LachlarlanIII 01-18-07, 06:16 PM	I haven't started playing it yet, but the party I'm looking at is: Wizard 6 Wizard (5 or 6) Cleric 5 Cleric 7 Scout 4/Barb 2 Bard 5 How survivable does this look? Someone in the area told us that we would have a really hard time because we lack a true frontliner and physical damage. Being halfway through the last part, I'd say you have a good chance of surviving the first few parts, but you may have significant trouble in the last couple.
rockondon 01-20-07, 08:55 PM	WOW! We just went through part 1 last night and had a great time. I wish I could say more without spoilers but...yeah, great module. Probably some of the best D&D I've played in years. Going into it this is what we had: ranger 6 (just leveled up to 6 last module) sorceror 9 cleric 6 (me - very tankish build) fighter 6 swashbuckler 3/ warmage 3 cleric 5 by the time it was over those last 3 levelled. Not me though, I'm at 20 992 experience, 8 away from 7th level :banghead: All I have to do is step on a rat or something and I can start casting 4th lvl spells. Those encounters are far tougher than what I'm used to in regional and core mods, and because of it I'm learning a lot about what is effective and what isn't: The fighter with power attack and greatsword is amazing. His girlfriend (cleric 5) is using a spiked chain and is discovering that weapon (and EWP feat) was a bad choice. The ranger is TWF and has 4 attacks somehow but he's still not as effective as the fighter who only attacks twice/round. My buddy (swashbuckler/warmage) tries to be good at both melee and spellcasting and raves on about how effective his magic missiles are and now he's excited at finally being able to cast scorching ray now that he's 7th level (swashbuckler 3/ warmage 4). After watching the sorc's fireballs I think he's starting to realize that he would probably have been more effective to focus on one concept than to try to be good at everything - that's what the rest of the party is for (imho). I'm going for the extra turn/quicken spell/divine metamagic tree but I stupidly slowed it down by taking craft wondrous item at 3rd. I wish I could take that back but oh well - live and learn. At 9th lvl my char should be interesting. The sorc 9 and fighter 7 are definately the MVP's in combat, but in a couple levels I hope to be comparable.
Reska 01-20-07, 10:45 PM	If I remember correctly, our 6 person table consisted of: Druid 6 Druid 3/Sorc 3 Hexblade/Rogue (forget the levels) Warmage6/Marshal1 Sorc 5 And I think we had some sort of up front melee, but I forget. Between..well, all of us, it was tough going for a number of fights. But the one spoiled above, it was rather easy for us. Being a Wasteland Druid meant I could toss up a Haboob around said beasty. Then as it moved through (and took more damage) the Warmage pelted it with enough damage to drop it (course, we had pelted it from a decent amount of range early on...gotta love Warmages..) Course, now, for part 2, I'll have my Dire Tortoise to act as the main tank...
Fleetfang 01-22-07, 10:12 AM	Reska, I think you're a bit shy of levels to call that Dire Tortise to be your companinon.... Unless I'm missing something, I think you need to be level 10 before that's possible. Believe me, I've got my eye on that huge brute for my Bright Lands Druid as well. :coolcthul
trollbill 01-22-07, 11:40 AM	Our group just started RHoD last Friday. The first two encounters were entertaining, but not overly challenging. The last one was a different matter, though we probably could have made it a lot easier by use of better scouting and stealth techniques. Still, it was a lot of fun. Our part consists of the following: Human (dragon-blooded) Sorcerer 6/Ruathar 1 (me) Human Fighter 4/Barbarian 1 Dwarf Fighter 5 Halfling Rogue 5/Ranger 1 Dwarf Cleric 5/Ruather 1 Human Warmage 4
Reska 01-22-07, 12:22 PM	Reska, I think you're a bit shy of levels to call that Dire Tortise to be your companinon.... Unless I'm missing something, I think you need to be level 10 before that's possible. Believe me, I've got my eye on that huge brute for my Bright Lands Druid as well. :coolcthul Nope... Druid 6/ Beastmaster 1 = Estimated Druid Level: 10
Fleetfang 01-22-07, 12:31 PM	Nice.
trollbill 01-22-07, 12:38 PM	Nope... Druid 6/ Beastmaster 1 = Estimated Druid Level: 10 I am starting to become of the opinion that players who run Druids with levels of Beastmaster should call themselves Animals with Druid Companions rather than the other way around.
Samwise 01-22-07, 01:34 PM	I am starting to become of the opinion that players who run Druids with levels of Beastmaster should call themselves Animals with Druid Companions rather than the other way around. Heh. One of the guys I play with is doing an arcane hierophant with a level of beastmaster and I said he's a spacefiller who's animal gets a druid cohort at 7th level.
CrystalBlue 01-22-07, 02:11 PM	Can...you do that? I thought your level for anything could never exceed your actual level? Like for Practiced Spellcaster, your caster level can never be greater then your actual level.
Britt 01-22-07, 02:17 PM	Beastmaster specifically allows a higher EDL for animal companions. Natural Bond does what you are thinking though.
GrahamWills 01-22-07, 02:31 PM	Based on reports I have seen on the RHOD's GM group, and on friend's messages, I would say that the difficulty is very dependent on how the GM runs the encounters. If the GM doesn't take advantage of opposition's advantages in terms of whcih range to combat at, how to fall back and regroup, and how to use the environment, you will walk it. Basically, if you played the first mod, and the opposition did not regroup, use attacks from range, use magic items and use concealment, then your GM made it easy on you. Without spoilers, all of those should have happened in the first mod.
Samwise 01-22-07, 02:48 PM	Based on reports I have seen on the RHOD's GM group, and on friend's messages, I would say that the difficulty is very dependent on how the GM runs the encounters. If the GM doesn't take advantage of opposition's advantages in terms of whcih range to combat at, how to fall back and regroup, and how to use the environment, you will walk it. Basically, if you played the first mod, and the opposition did not regroup, use attacks from range, use magic items and use concealment, then your GM made it easy on you. Without spoilers, all of those should have happened in the first mod. Unless of course the players made it impossible for the opposition to do that. It is nice to come up with super-awesome tactics for the bad guys, but they mean very little when the PCs use their own tactics to neutralize them. I'm an old time wargamer, and one of the first lessons to learn is "no battle plan survives contact with the enemy." I'm also one of the top, if not the best, tactician in the venue i run at, and everyone knows just how badly I will abuse them if they give me the chance. And so they make sure they never give me the chance. Battlefield control, focused firepower, and more all figure into the standard tactics of the players, with heightened responses in ambushes and when "overwhelming" opposition is identified ahead of time. RHoD will depend primarily on the party composition and how the players react to high threat situations. If the group overwhelms the APL it will be a cakewalk. If they dither or waste actions it can easily turn to a bloodbath.
GrahamWills 01-22-07, 05:18 PM	Unless of course the players made it impossible for the opposition to do that. I cannot go into details in an open forum, but with the parties as presented in this thread, there should be no issues whatsoever with the GM being able to do most of the suggestions. Maybe they won't work, but I stand by my statement that if your GM didn't attempt them, she made it easy for you. I agree that the players are a major determining factor. But it seems strange to me, with your wargaming background, that you feel that the "other side" has less of an effect. If either side screws up, the other should "win". To me, it seems a fairly even split. The GM has an advantage in that it is easier for him to coordinate his team. The Players have an advantage in that they outnumber the GM in total thinking power and can each make locally excellent decisions, but neither seems more likely to decide the encounter than the other, to a first degree approximation. All I am stating is that if you are playing RHOD, and finding it a cakewalk, and your GM has not tried any of these tactics, then the *reason* for it being a cakewalk might be fairly simple to divine. Say DC 5.
rockondon 01-22-07, 06:46 PM	well we just finished part two last night and still havin a blast. I'd say part one was harder. We steamrolled over everything except the last encounter - that one was nasty. My cleric reached level 7 this mod and there was a couple times where I was just about to cast delay death but didn't quite need to. After it was over, our party looks like this: Sorc 9 fighter 7 cleric 7 cleric 6 warmage 4 swashbuckler 3 ranger 7 ...which is almost exactly an APL 8 party - so a little overpowered at this point.
Howie23 01-22-07, 07:10 PM	well we just finished part two last night... Please stop posting spoilers for mods in active play. David
Samwise 01-22-07, 08:29 PM	I cannot go into details in an open forum, but with the parties as presented in this thread, there should be no issues whatsoever with the GM being able to do most of the suggestions. Maybe they won't work, but I stand by my statement that if your GM didn't attempt them, she made it easy for you. I was the DM, and I got as close to them as the party let me. Given, as I said, that they know better than to let me even start doing such things, for the most part, the critters got to use very little of their tactics, and when they did, they were of very little effect. I agree that the players are a major determining factor. But it seems strange to me, with your wargaming background, that you feel that the "other side" has less of an effect. If either side screws up, the other should "win". To me, it seems a fairly even split. The GM has an advantage in that it is easier for him to coordinate his team. The Players have an advantage in that they outnumber the GM in total thinking power and can each make locally excellent decisions, but neither seems more likely to decide the encounter than the other, to a first degree approximation. That is assuming both sides have exactly equal resources. They don't. So even when the EL of an encounter is above the APL the PCs typically have a distinct advantage. Nor is it always an advantage to be the sole controller of a combined arms group, especially if the group was not designed by you. All I am stating is that if you are playing RHOD, and finding it a cakewalk, and your GM has not tried any of these tactics, then the *reason* for it being a cakewalk might be fairly simple to divine. Say DC 5. I didn't say it was a cakewalk. I was very clear that the group I ran through it was challenged, even though they had the PC initiative advantage each time. I did say that if they had not utilized that advantage they would have been very sore pressed. That is much different from it becoming a cakewalk.
rockondon 02-03-07, 08:01 PM	We finished part 3 last night. Our PCs levels are 7,7,8,8,8,9 and it was NASTY. One monster did 109 damage to our tank in one round (his normal max is around 80 or so), and that was not the only time that delay death saved a pc that mod. The toughest combat came after we had already spent most of our resources. We were droppin like flies. It was great. Can't wait to have our butts handed to us again in part 4 and 5. The exp seems a little imbalanced. Feels like this: 180 exp - for defeating a couple goblins 181 exp - for defeating 2 liches, 4 dragons, 1 demigod, and saving the universe 320 exp - for helping an old lady cross the street
ragecage79 02-04-07, 03:27 PM	320 exp - for helping an old lady cross the street HEY, HEY, HEY, SPOILERS! :D
evilaustintom 02-05-07, 05:20 PM	I have only played part I at this point, but I have been enjoying the module so far. As with a number of WotC published modules, this one seems well-written, and success relies heavily on the quality of players & DMs to make it fun, as well as challenging. The various parties that have been posted in this group appear to be mostly over-powered (APL +1 to +3 over the module). However, I believe even an under-powered group (such as the party with numerous mixed classes and a shadow-template) can manage OK if they play smart. It'll be tough, but possible. Good luck, and have fun! Our RHoD group: 1/2 orc Barbarian/Fighter 7 Cleric 5 halfing druid cavalry 7 Fighter/Wizard archer 5 Fighter/Rogue 6 Wizard/Bonded Summoner (earth) 6 Tom Thowe