Post/Author/DateTime	Post
awroe 10-26-06, 06:58 PM	My fifth level wizard has access to both some leather armour with 0% spell failure and a mithril buckler (also 0% spell failure). I understand that getting one of these is a good thing so I can get light fortification on it, but is there any merit in getting both the armour *and* the shield? The AC bonus is not an issue, as mage armour is better than the leather, but could I get light fortification on both armour and shield and get two miss chances? AW.
Arvagor 10-26-06, 07:13 PM	I understand that getting one of these is a good thing so I can get light fortification on it, but is there any merit in getting both the armour *and* the shield? The AC bonus is not an issue, as mage armour is better than the leather, but could I get light fortification on both armour and shield and get two miss chances?IMO, you would not get two miss chances; this falls under the realm of "two items that provide the same bonus don't stack". Do you fire off a lot of ranged touch attack spells? If so, then you also don't want the armor/shield in question to have an Armor Check Penalty (if you're not proficient with the armor in question, then you take the Armor Check Penalty as a penalty on all your attack rolls as well).
JohnduBois 10-26-06, 07:18 PM	Mithral buckler is just about the best armor ever for a wizard, with mithral light shield being a close second. Neither have spell failure or ACP, and both can be enchanted with all kinds of fun stuff. Light fortification is cool, but for regional reasons I'm looking for Death Ward access (again) myself. If both those items have 0% armor check penalty, get both and put different things on each one. Again, I'm going to push the Death Ward - being able to tell vampires, death effects, and Enervation traps "no" is just too cool to pass up.
clannagh 10-26-06, 08:19 PM	My fifth level wizard has access to both some leather armour with 0% spell failure and a mithril buckler (also 0% spell failure). I understand that getting one of these is a good thing so I can get light fortification on it, but is there any merit in getting both the armour *and* the shield? The AC bonus is not an issue, as mage armour is better than the leather, but could I get light fortification on both armour and shield and get two miss chances? AW. mage armor is not that useful in an anti-magic field and can be dispelled i would get both, light fortify one and eventually if you get death ward or some other interesting upgrade apply it to the other one
_m_ 10-26-06, 09:27 PM	lol, my ac would drop by... let me think 6, 4, 1, 1, 8, 2. damn, id drop 22 AC in an anti magic field with my wiz. thats nasty!
Arvagor 10-26-06, 09:37 PM	Yeah, AMFs suck, esp. for spellcasters. I think my rogue loses 4 to his AC; on the plus side, he doesn't lose any of his special abilities while in one (all of his abilities, including his PrC abilities, are (Ex) :thumbsup: )
_m_ 10-26-06, 09:49 PM	i can still use a fair chunk of my shadow abilities. whats even nastier... my familiar would drop effectively 5 levels in an AMF. fort and aug familiar (hp, stats, ac, dmg reduct, saves, dmg), mage armour, shield. not that it matters anymore, hes gone *R.I.P little dragon* shadow elemeantal ftw. antimagic THIS!
UMiskatonic 10-26-06, 11:08 PM	The one place I've found armor most useful is while sleeping. When you wake up surrounded by kobolds, it's nice to have that chain shirt on. And it's only 100 gold. Sure, eventually mage armor + 1 pearl of power = 24 hour mage armor, but that's 12 levels away.
Jay_Ibero_911 10-26-06, 11:35 PM	Mithral buckler is just about the best armor ever for a wizard, with mithral light shield being a close second. Neither have spell failure or ACP, and both can be enchanted with all kinds of fun stuff. Light fortification is cool, but for regional reasons I'm looking for Death Ward access (again) myself. If both those items have 0% armor check penalty, get both and put different things on each one. Again, I'm going to push the Death Ward - being able to tell vampires, death effects, and Enervation traps "no" is just too cool to pass up. Just a note, Death Ward from Complete Arcane specifies it is an armor only enhancement, so no Death Ward Mithril Bucklers. My Druid has+1 Death Ward Dragonhide Full Plate though...^_^ The one place I've found armor most useful is while sleeping. When you wake up surrounded by kobolds, it's nice to have that chain shirt on. And it's only 100 gold. Sure, eventually mage armor + 1 pearl of power = 24 hour mage armor, but that's 12 levels away. You could pull it off at level 6 with a pearl of power and a lesser rod of extend, both inexpensive items...
_m_ 10-27-06, 12:34 AM	or, if i were to go out on a limb... at that level... you good *gasp* cast it more than once. :D
JohnduBois 10-27-06, 08:05 AM	Just a note, Death Ward from Complete Arcane specifies it is an armor only enhancement, so no Death Ward Mithril Bucklers. This discussion's been going around. The problem is that Complete Arcane makes no distinction between armor and shields, and Death Ward doesn't specify armor "only". If the "armor" aspect was taken literally, then the Spiteful Imp "specific armor" on the next page couldn't be a buckler either... The MI triad (at least, the current MI triad) has ruled that death ward bucklers are a-ok, and CustServ gave me the "up to your DM" response. That said, if a more specific ruling comes down later proving me wrong, I can easily move the enhancement to my mithral breastplate (my character with access is a bard) when I make the correction. That also said, if you want to make sure you won't have to change things later, put the death ward on the armor and the light fortification on the shield. John
Maesto 10-27-06, 08:30 AM	Another useful enhancement is the invulnerability enhancement, a +3 enhancement that gives you DR 5/magic. Anytime you're not fighting classed NPCs, chances are that your DR will apply =)
Prochytes 10-27-06, 09:07 AM	My sorcerer will shortly have a fetching grey power suit that is actually heavy fortification thistledown padded armor +1. It is very expensive, but she has a lot of money, and immunity to crits and sneak attacks is rather nice. It will supersede the light fortification already a permanent characteristic of her skin.
JohnduBois 10-27-06, 09:09 AM	Another useful enhancement is the invulnerability enhancement, a +3 enhancement that gives you DR 5/magic. Anytime you're not fighting classed NPCs, chances are that your DR will apply =) Hmm... while this is a useful ability, the assumption is a little off. Check the Damage Reduction ability on page 307 of the Monster Manual. Paragraph 5, discussing monsters with DR X/magic states, "Such creatures' natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction." Essentially, if you're fighting something nonhumanoid with DR X/magic, it's going to be able to overcome that DR itself.
Maesto 10-27-06, 11:19 AM	I know... but at least in Perrenland, all we seem to fight are demons and undead, so it works a charm against them =)
Maesto 10-27-06, 11:21 AM	My sorcerer will shortly have a fetching grey power suit that is actually heavy fortification thistledown padded armor +1. It is very expensive, but she has a lot of money, and immunity to crits and sneak attacks is rather nice. It will supersede the light fortification already a permanent characteristic of her skin. I thought that this still had a arcane spell failure chance? I know it doesn't have any in the table, but when you look up "thistledown" in the special materials, it says nothing about reducing the ASF chance, and the text supercedes the table... And how on earth did you get a permanent light fort?!
Arvagor 10-27-06, 11:39 AM	... and the text supercedes the table...If descriptive text contradicts a table, then the text supercedes it; otherwise, both are relevant. Or would you prefer that your preferred weapon deals no damage? After all, with few exceptions, none of the weapons in the PHB actually state they deal damage in their descriptive text (at a glance, the gnome hooked hammer and dwarven urgrosh were the only ones I saw that did so) ;)
Maesto 10-27-06, 11:52 AM	Hmm. Fair enough. But by the same token, there's the leafweave padded armour, which by the descriptive text should have 0% arcane spell failure, while in the table, it has 5% arcane spell failure. Care to tell me which one I _should_ be using, please? No, really - I am serious in saying that; I know that that particular table is poorly done with many inconsistensies (sic). Cheers, Jolyon
Sieylianna 10-27-06, 02:35 PM	I understand that getting one of these is a good thing so I can get light fortification on it, but is there any merit in getting both the armour *and* the shield? My retired wizard wore a mithral chain shirt with the twilight enhancement and would have purchased a mithral buckler if she'd ever had access. You probably haven't seen it at 5th level, but as the APL increases you will see lots of assassins and save or die spells targeting the unarmored person. Ed
Prochytes 10-27-06, 03:23 PM	I thought that this still had a arcane spell failure chance? I know it doesn't have any in the table, but when you look up "thistledown" in the special materials, it says nothing about reducing the ASF chance, and the text supercedes the table... If you look up "thistledown SUIT" immediately above "thistledown", it notes that the effect of the suit is to reduce the ASF by 5%. A possible counter-argument is that what is said of the suit is not intended as definitive for thistledown the material; one certainly observes that (as per the table) thistledown padded armour does not have the additional +1 armour check penalty that the suit imposes. But it still seems most economical to me to suppose that the special ASF-reducing property is not reiterated because it was mentioned in the previous paragraph, and that there is no additional arnour check penalty because thistledown padded armour is not a cumbersome addition to a conventional suit of armour, as the suit is, but armour in its own right. And, as Arvagor observes, there is nothing under "thistledown" that contradicts the notion of its ASF-reducing qualities. And how on earth did you get a permanent light fort?! A gemstone of light fortification embedded in her skin. Since the heavy fortification was already in prospect, the purchase was a bit pointless in power-gaming terms, but it just struck me as rather cool, and it was quite cheap. It does set up some potential Wolverine-style complications, though: "Drop all your magic items!" "Um... I can't...." :D
Arvagor 10-27-06, 04:36 PM	one certainly observes that (as per the table) thistledown padded armour does not have the additional +1 armour check penalty that the suit imposes.Perhaps because a suit of thistledown padded armor is itself of masterwork quality, the +1 to AC penalty is countered by the -1 by being masterwork? The cost would seem to say so: 5 (padded) + 150 (masterwork) + 250 (thistledown suit) = 405. What isn't explained though, is where is the +10 Maximum Dex Bonus coming from, when padded is normally +8? Is this simply an unstated side effect of the armor weighing half as much as normal padded? Or is it, like mithral's association, a by-product of elven construction?
Morgen 10-27-06, 11:11 PM	Antimagic fields arn't too pesky to my sorcerer. But then my AC is only 13 anyway.
Iswald 10-28-06, 03:23 AM	Again, I'm going to push the Death Ward - being able to tell vampires, death effects, and Enervation traps "no" is just too cool to pass up. Death ward would be nice if it worked more than once/day.
_m_ 10-28-06, 10:25 AM	Death ward would be nice if it worked more than once/day. still. id rather have it and not get wail of the bansheed :D as for uuber expensive no-crit-me items, i personaly dont think its worth it. there are other, cheaper ways of not beign crited.
Prochytes 10-28-06, 11:59 AM	as for uuber expensive no-crit-me items, i personaly dont think its worth it. there are other, cheaper ways of not beign crited. There are many cheaper ways of not being sneak attacked. Invisibility is the obvious one. Not being critted is tougher, and most of the ways of achieving it cannot be bought (10 levels of elemental savant, for example). The best way of all not to be critted is, of course, not to be attacked in the first place. Invisibility is good for that, too. But sometimes the worst happens. One of my main PC's friends would have taken 600 points of damage in one round recently if he had been subject to critical hits at the time. I think that your main point is a valid one, though. 36k is a hell of a lot to blow on a defensive item for a character that should not be near melee in the first place. If my PC did not have money to burn, and if she had more interesting things on which to spend it, and she had not run into quite so many people waving keen scythes meaningfully in her general direction, there is no way she would be buying it.
PaulH 10-28-06, 02:17 PM	Hi My main (Oskar Thorinson) is a Dwarf Cleric 3(Boccob: Magic & Trickery) Warmage 4. Has a Mithril Chain Shirt Lt Fortification - which he never takes off (exept in bath)!. Since he can cast Wizard spells off items, (Magic Domain), he only has 10% ASF with his Mithril Shirt. Anti-Magic zones would be a real headache since he's primarily a support caster. Best class for crit exemption is Druid. Warshaper (if available) grants immunity, also a feat does same thing, but you have to be able to shape into a Plant. Master Many Forms also grants creature's exeptional abilities at 7th Lvl. (Character as Troll with Regeneration & Rend)! However you lose all the extra spell casting levels you would have gained as pure Druid. My answer to the original question is Yes. As Wizard you can take Still Spell and prepare those spells you simply can't afford to fail, and take the minimum chance on the others. That's why I prefer Warmages as Blaster Casters - they're better at it, can use armour, (no AoO with Shielded Caster feat), and can even use few 'utility' spells if you choose your Advanced Learning spells correctly. (Leomund's Tiny Hut makes grants Total Concealment outside 20' radius, whilst those within see perfectly. Force Effect, so no saves, Truesight etc). Cheers Paul H
Morgen 10-28-06, 11:42 PM	Well don't forget that arcane spell failure only applies to spells without Somantic components. They are few but there are some nice ones. True strike, Critical Strike, and so on and so forth. Better for spellsword builds then a true wizard though. Somewhere, somehow, there must be access to Twilight however. -10% armor failure means that a mithral chain shirt is a freebie for a wizard to wear. +5 AC (has to be +1 to be Twilighted after all) wouldn't be too bad. Add in a Darkwood buckler and you can maybe not get hit as often. Maybe.
Iswald 10-29-06, 07:39 AM	That's why I prefer Warmages as Blaster Casters - they're better at it, can use armour, (no AoO with Shielded Caster feat) Why spend two feats for this when you can just max your concentration? Or, just stay out of combat? You could've gotten two metamagic feats instead.
_m_ 10-29-06, 05:05 PM	a level of warshaper is a posibility if you dont mind dumping one level. as for wearing armour as a wiz, i never saw the point. sure, i could wear mithral chain shirt with twilight on it... or i could cast greater mage armour... for free. whats so fantastic about being an armoured mage? not only do you have to put some of your precious stat points into having enough strength to actually move in it, but given that it dosent stack with mage armour, by and large, it simply isnt as good.
Arvagor 10-29-06, 06:49 PM	Mage armor, etc., can be dispelled, armor bonus from actual armor can't be (short of destroying the armor); that always seemed to be the main advantage to me... What do you need to be moving 30' for anyway? ;)
_m_ 10-29-06, 06:53 PM	generally ive found, ive ive been hit by an amf, or a dispel... the 5 remaining armour i would have from a mithril chain shirt is not enough to make a difference.... if they;re high enough to dispel my magic armour, their high enough that a 20 odd ac from my remaining dex / size / mitrhil twighlight (magical) armour wont do anything anyway.
Maesto 10-29-06, 06:54 PM	Why the 30 foot move? To quote the druid cultists from "Majesty", Run runrunrunrunrunrunrunrunrunrun!
PaulH 10-29-06, 08:26 PM	Hi What's this 'Twilight'? I'm from Onwal - never heard of this upgrade. As for Majesty - yep, that sure had some good quotes. Still trying to remember the Druid Cultist's taunt- especially good when taunting a Vampire! As for Armoured Mages - is Gtr Mage Armour generally available, not Restricted? My character just uses Wizard items (Magic Domain), and doesn't have Wizard spells, but his Dakon Cohort does. As a 'generalist' spellcaster, he often has to get in close combat to heal, etc. Even ended up as main front line fighter a few times when playing down at APL4. (Best AC, 2nd best BAB, 2nd best HP). I love my Mithril Shirt of Light Fortification! Cheers Paul H
_m_ 10-29-06, 08:45 PM	what is this obession with light fortification!? as far as i can see, it really isnt very fantastic at all.
Maesto 10-29-06, 08:51 PM	Twilight is a +1 enhancement from the PHB 2, listed under Duskblade, I think. It reduces the ASF chance of the armour by 10%. Combined with mithril, this means that some armours are actually wearable by wizards. The only time I've ever seen twilight was as the special reward to one player per table (as a choice of a bunch depending on how well the table went) from one of the core specials this year. Light fort is only a 25% chance to stop stuff, but if you've ever been critted with a greataxe, or hit repeatedly with a wounding weapon, or snuckattack for lots, or snuckattack for -2 strength a few times (on a strength 6 wizard, that one REALLY HURTS!)... Every chance helps. Moderate is much better; 75% chance is not something to sneeze at, and since light is on the way to moderate, you might as well get one as soon as you can =) Cheers, J
PaulH 10-29-06, 09:12 PM	Hi Ah - PHB2. Is that legal in LG? Cheers Paul H
Maesto 10-29-06, 09:51 PM	Yes, if it's certed. It's all considered limited access as of yet.
_m_ 10-29-06, 10:04 PM	Twilight is a +1 enhancement from the PHB 2, listed under Duskblade, I think. It reduces the ASF chance of the armour by 10%. Combined with mithril, this means that some armours are actually wearable by wizards. The only time I've ever seen twilight was as the special reward to one player per table (as a choice of a bunch depending on how well the table went) from one of the core specials this year. Light fort is only a 25% chance to stop stuff, but if you've ever been critted with a greataxe, or hit repeatedly with a wounding weapon, or snuckattack for lots, or snuckattack for -2 strength a few times (on a strength 6 wizard, that one REALLY HURTS!)... Every chance helps. Moderate is much better; 75% chance is not something to sneeze at, and since light is on the way to moderate, you might as well get one as soon as you can =) Cheers, J personaly (and this may just be personal preference) id rather spend money on things that a) give me more hp, or b) reduce teh chance i get hit in the first place. dont get me wrong, im sure it could save me once or twice... but fly and invisibility save me just as effectively... admitedly, there are occasions (often in fact) when i get hit before i get to act... in which case... go go gadget flicker!
Sieylianna 10-30-06, 08:05 AM	Twilight is a +1 enhancement from the PHB 2, listed under Duskblade, I think. It reduces the ASF chance of the armour by 10%. Combined with mithril, this means that some armours are actually wearable by wizards. The only time I've ever seen twilight was as the special reward to one player per table (as a choice of a bunch depending on how well the table went) from one of the core specials this year. It is also in the Book of Exalted Deeds and I've seen access to it a couple of times over the past two years. Ed
Prochytes 10-30-06, 08:39 AM	Hi As for Armoured Mages - is Gtr Mage Armour generally available, not Restricted? Yes, it is Core. As of SpC, it does not have that pesky expensive material component anymore, either.
_m_ 10-30-06, 05:50 PM	Yes, it is Core. As of SpC, it does not have that pesky expensive material component anymore, either. i didnt start using it until after the material component was already gone. what was it?
Maesto 10-30-06, 07:02 PM	10 gold a pop. It was really annoying to keep track of, especially if you were casting it every day and the box text said "You're on a boat for three weeks, and your voyage is uneventful". Then you said "crap, that cost me 210 gold for nothing". Much better without the stupid component.
_m_ 10-30-06, 07:30 PM	it wasnt worth having a component for what it was. if it still had it, id just use regular mage armour. stoneskin, however, would be kinda cheesy otherwise.