Post/Author/DateTime	Post
EberronMoses 10-28-06, 11:02 PM	Seriously, is it in LG? I know most of your games are going to end up with u running around in a dungeon and ur horse outside hoping owlbears don't get it. Opinions plz
Morgen 10-28-06, 11:39 PM	Well it depends on if your going to be a medium sized citter on a warhorse or a gnome/halfling on a riding dog. Honestly I see mounted combat used a lot in the mods we play here in the Shield Lands, but we've been at war for about 20 or so years now. (Though I heard Nyron had some kind of minor, minor skirmish or something...) If you hit, Spirited Charge is obscene with a lance. Mounted Archery can be fun and there ususally is enough happening outdoors that you won't find it too useless. Small riders on dogs or a Paladin with a special mount of course will find that they can take advantage of combat more often then just a human on a warhorse, but that's up to you.
EberronMoses 10-29-06, 01:09 AM	see, i'm makin a yeomanry ranger and I'm wondering if i should build him for mounted archery. this means i take point blank and mounted combat at first so i can take mounted archery at third. I"m making my character a specialized giant fiter and the idea was stay far away from the giant (great idea huh) and range him to death using manyshot from horseback. So my animal companion was going to be a horse. I was either going to do that or an eagle so i could have a heads up on whenever there are giants nearby.
Cynric 10-29-06, 04:08 AM	If you are willing to borrow from someone elses idea. Puggle Halfwine has a halfling mutt buil that charges (Spirited with Lance) on the back of his Dire bat. Of course he needed a level of beastmaster and druid and Natural bond to do it, but it can be very amusing. So you could do something similar with mounted archery. You might want to build it as a fighter with the one level of druid due to it being very feat intensive though.
Prochytes 10-29-06, 07:12 AM	Seriously, is it in LG? I know most of your games are going to end up with u running around in a dungeon and ur horse outside hoping owlbears don't get it. Opinions plz It can be very effective indeed. We used to have a Spirited Charger in our area, and he could be devastating. If you go down that route, there are two things you should bear in mind: 1. Make absolutely certain you understand how all the mechanics work. For LG, that includes putting in some time with the FAQ (see earlier thread on "Mounted Combat"). I have never even considered playing one because the rules here make my head hurt (the diagrams... the diagrams...), but others are more robust. 2. Remember that you will not be shielding the squishies in the party if you routinely gallop off out of reach of the bad guys after attacking. There is no shame in that; plenty of characters work best by unloading a huge offense from somewhere comparatively inaccessible (archers, for example). But it is a good idea to make sure that everyone understands that and plans accordingly.
Iswald 10-29-06, 07:47 AM	Seriously, is it in LG? I know most of your games are going to end up with u running around in a dungeon and ur horse outside hoping owlbears don't get it. If you change 'dungeon' to 'cave', I played that exact mod! I didn't have a horse at that time, but it was too bad for some of the others. More recently, though, the opportunities for mounted combat appear to have increased. It could just be the mods I've been playing.
chesspiece 10-29-06, 09:42 AM	I"m making my character a specialized giant fiter and the idea was stay far away from the giant (great idea huh) and range him to death using manyshot from horseback. Don't forget the max range on Manyshot (30') might keep you within range of an angry giant's charge. And if the giant has any tactical sense... you'd better be packing a spare bow.
mowaca 10-29-06, 01:07 PM	Seriously, is it in LG? I know most of your games are going to end up with u running around in a dungeon and ur horse outside hoping owlbears don't get it. Opinions plz Overall, yes, its worth it, especially if you enjoy mounted combat. Its more common to find small sized (or smaller) characters riding medium mounts, but its still relatively rare. Medium creatures riding large mounts doesn't seem to work well because you are often in cities (where you aren't riding your mount) or dungeons where as you mentioned your large mount can't fit. Also, one of the optimization challenges in LG is to make a character that is really good at a particular party role, but doesn't totally suck when that one thing won't work. So if you had a mounted combat character based on a Ranger, you'd probably have lots of skills, or a spellcaster based build like a Druid can also work because they always have spells to fall back on when mounted combat won't work.
ezreal2001 10-29-06, 05:22 PM	Don't forget the max range on Manyshot (30') might keep you within range of an angry giant's charge. And if the giant has any tactical sense... you'd better be packing a spare bow. Thats true, but the joy of mounted archery [the tactic - not the feat] is that because your mount is moving you (and your PC can shoot during it's mount's movement) your PC can urge the mount to within 30 feet of the target, take the shot, then ride away. The Mounted Archer feat can help by reducing the penalty incurred durring a double move or a run. Now while the charge can be avoided by ensurring that potential charge lanes are blocked (Rough terrain, Smoke, PCs, what ever). As a personal thing if your PC can Manyshot then it can Rapidshot and probably has it iteratitives - as such mounted volley fire from a range of say 90' is my prefered option. And if the bad thing can't deal with airbourne missile users - Pudding!
_m_ 10-29-06, 05:34 PM	im a little hesitant to use a flying mount if i myself cant fly. i know that kind of seems a little silly (why take a flying mount if you can fly), but im not a big fan of falling large distances due to anoying flying monsters swooping me :D
clannagh 10-29-06, 05:48 PM	see, i'm makin a yeomanry ranger and I'm wondering if i should build him for mounted archery. this means i take point blank and mounted combat at first so i can take mounted archery at third. I"m making my character a specialized giant fiter and the idea was stay far away from the giant (great idea huh) and range him to death using manyshot from horseback. So my animal companion was going to be a horse. I was either going to do that or an eagle so i could have a heads up on whenever there are giants nearby. Summoned mounts like Paladins have help a lot :) As for the long distance stuff. My current main shooty girl has far shot and access to a distance bow and arrows of flight .. so her maximum range increment is at the uber-ludicrous 5000' plus point and with dex 24 next level and woodland archer she has a very good chance of hitting at 2000' + ranges. Technically the +1 per 10' to spot will only apply if they have cover or are hiding so you should be able to whack the charging horseman/giant whatever from quite some distance. Problem is most LG mods are written using the logic that "this encounter is designed for melee so you just aint going to fireball/shoot my monsters until they are in your face". Do not expect to get to much long distance shooting in.
_m_ 10-29-06, 06:21 PM	yeah, we've had some games where we have a hippogriph sneak across a massive open field and appear 10 feet from us. or we've had BOX text say "you see a group of riders approach on the horizon", yet we dont get to act until they are within charge range. seems to me that your far more likely to be with 30 feet, then outside 500 yards.
EberronMoses 10-29-06, 06:51 PM	im a little hesitant to use a flying mount if i myself cant fly. i know that kind of seems a little silly (why take a flying mount if you can fly), but im not a big fan of falling large distances due to anoying flying monsters swooping me :D Yes, but just think of how action packed it will be when you're pegasus or whatever catches you at the last possible second! :OMG!
_m_ 10-29-06, 07:02 PM	Yes, but just think of how action packed it will be when you're pegasus or whatever catches you at the last possible second! :OMG! wow. that poor little guys head!!! heres a fun one: if you're an earth dreamer lvl 5, and can glide through stone effortlessly... if you fall from a great height, can you fall through the ground and take no damage?
Samwise 10-29-06, 07:44 PM	Blasphemy vs flying paladin mounts. :cool:
PaulH 10-29-06, 08:51 PM	Hi It's the 6D6 plus ....... damage at 2nd lvl that appeals to me. Human Druid, then lvl of Fighter grants Spirited Charge. That Great Club with Shillelagh cast on it now does 3D6 plus, doubled with Spirited Charge. Criticals bit silly this level. Str 14 Druid/Ftr charging has +7 To Hit, 6D6+8 damage. (Crits on 20, double damage). The magical bludgeoning weapon will overcome some DR's. The 6D6 plus 8 at APL2 makes other DR's irrelevant! Cheers Paul H
_m_ 10-29-06, 10:09 PM	perhaps... but what do you plan on doing with a str 14 fighter druid after level 2?
Iswald 10-29-06, 10:48 PM	That Great Club with Shillelagh cast on it now does 3D6 plus, doubled with Spirited Charge. Criticals bit silly this level. This could be why shillelagh doesn't work with great clubs, just clubs and quarterstaves. ;) Although I could be mistaken, I think you were in the arguement before on how they don't work together.
trollbill 10-30-06, 09:56 AM	im a little hesitant to use a flying mount if i myself cant fly. i know that kind of seems a little silly (why take a flying mount if you can fly), but im not a big fan of falling large distances due to anoying flying monsters swooping me :D That's what they make parachutes, a.k.a. rings of feather fall, for.
_m_ 10-30-06, 05:52 PM	That's what they make parachutes, a.k.a. rings of feather fall, for. true, but id still rather be able to fly, and i may have other rings on... btw, is it ok to simply wait till your 60 feet off the ground then put your feather fall ring on?>
ezreal2001 10-30-06, 06:54 PM	true, but id still rather be able to fly, and i may have other rings on... btw, is it ok to simply wait till your 60 feet off the ground then put your feather fall ring on?> Y'know that reminds of the old joke about the Irish parrachutist...
_m_ 10-30-06, 07:29 PM	Y'know that reminds of the old joke about the Irish parrachutist... hey. be nice... im irish... mostly
amnuxoll 10-31-06, 02:27 PM	if you're an earth dreamer lvl 5, and can glide through stone effortlessly... if you fall from a great height, can you fall through the ground and take no damage? Yeah, but how would you ever stop? You'd just keep falling until you hit lava. ;) I happen to play a 5th level Earth Dream (character level 13th) whose bacon was saved from drowning by earth glide. After falling in the river he just dropped right through the bottom and glided out onto the shore. :cool:
_m_ 10-31-06, 05:29 PM	i imagine, since the earth glide is like swimming through earth, you could probably slow your fall speed once in the earth. also, what happens when you run out of earth glide, and your still underground? do you get shunted out like a bungled dimension door?
clannagh 10-31-06, 06:45 PM	Hi It's the 6D6 plus ....... damage at 2nd lvl that appeals to me. Human Druid, then lvl of Fighter grants Spirited Charge. That Great Club with Shillelagh cast on it now does 3D6 plus, doubled with Spirited Charge. Criticals bit silly this level. Str 14 Druid/Ftr charging has +7 To Hit, 6D6+8 damage. (Crits on 20, double damage). The magical bludgeoning weapon will overcome some DR's. The 6D6 plus 8 at APL2 makes other DR's irrelevant! Cheers Paul H For serious sillyness consider a cavalier using deady charge (3x damage melee weapon) and power attacking with a scythe (4x critical) and confirming a critical. Though it is not entirely clear whether you should get the full 12 times damage here or just 6 times .. I have seen arguments both ways :)
_m_ 10-31-06, 07:33 PM	or even sillier, our random character on foot that we worked out who can run at 145 kph. who needs a horse when you can move that fast?
clik_ml 10-31-06, 10:43 PM	who needs a horse when you can move that fast? Someone who wants to use spirited charge and a lance while mounted, I reckon.
_m_ 10-31-06, 11:05 PM	Someone who wants to use spirited charge and a lance while mounted, I reckon. aye. twas a joke my friend. why would you spend 10 levels and all your feats making a character with a 150 base move either :D
budleiser 11-01-06, 07:23 AM	For serious sillyness consider a cavalier using deady charge (3x damage melee weapon) and power attacking with a scythe (4x critical) and confirming a critical. Though it is not entirely clear whether you should get the full 12 times damage here or just 6 times .. I have seen arguments both ways :) Wow the math here is awful... #1 SC with a LANCE is x3 because the Lance is X2 and the SC is X2 which brings it up to X3. So SC with a Scythe is ONLY x2. #2 x4+x2=x5 damage not x6,x8, or x12. #3 A Lance Crit is X3 so its infinitely better than the scythe because it has the same damage while charge critting, but does more when you dont! Also just to help you in the future: Your crits will multiply damage #s but not extra dice. So if you have bane orc and get +2 damage that gets X3 for charging. But if you get Frost D6, that does not become 3D6, nor do you roll it then X3.
awroe 11-01-06, 08:29 AM	Wow the math here is awful... #1 SC with a LANCE is x3 because the Lance is X2 and the SC is X2 which brings it up to X3. So SC with a Scythe is ONLY x2. That would be why the example was a Cavalier using DEADLY charge, which gives a x3 to the Scythe (or x4 to a lance). I agree with the addition, but that's where the x6 comes from
Gelth 11-01-06, 11:15 AM	My first, and still highest level, character is a human mounted combatant. He spend much of his starting gold on a Light Warhorse, traded up to a Heavy as soon as possible, and has never looked back. At various points (between various conversions) he's been a Fighter/Cleric, a Fighter/Cleric/Ranger/Windrider, and now a Paladin/Cavalier. I find that in about half of mods he could fight from horseback in about half of encounters. This has gone up at high levels, as various spell from party members make the horse able to get more places, and the Cavalier levels make it valuable just to be mounted even if I'm not maneuverable that way, but the devastation I can deal out on a successful Spirited Charge (and could even at 1st level) makes up for the times I'm weaker than average, having spent numerous feats on the horse. I have, over the course of my career (13th level now) had one horse killed, ever. I've been lucky in that some DMs have warned me that a horse simply wasn't suitable, particularly at mid levels, but I've gone to some pretty extreme lengths to keep my various horses alive over the years. The biggest piece of advice I can give for anyone considering mounted combat is this: Get a better-than-average mount. Make it an Animal Companion, or Paladin Mount, or something, a straight animal mount will just die quickly at higher level, leaving you stranded. Also, make sure you have a backup plan when unmounted, so you aren't useless. --Penn, Ket Triad
_m_ 11-01-06, 05:00 PM	is there technically any reason you cant use a lance when unmounted? sort of like a long spear? also, the number of times you get to se your maount drastically increases if your small and on a riding dog.
budleiser 11-01-06, 11:42 PM	is there technically any reason you cant use a lance when unmounted? sort of like a long spear? also, the number of times you get to se your maount drastically increases if your small and on a riding dog. Of course not, but then it requires both hands. (if you have SC or DC you should be using it two handed anyway!)
budleiser 11-01-06, 11:42 PM	That would be why the example was a Cavalier using DEADLY charge, which gives a x3 to the Scythe (or x4 to a lance). I agree with the addition, but that's where the x6 comes from Bah my bad. Still its X6 damage not X12. And its still infinitely worse than Lance IMHO. (except for RP, for that the Scythe is amazing)
_m_ 11-01-06, 11:50 PM	Of course not, but then it requires both hands. (if you have SC or DC you should be using it two handed anyway!) interestingly enough, whilst mounted, you technically couldn't possibly use a lance 2 handed, it just isnt physically possible unless you have 3 arms. funny innit. from an actual physical point of view, there are actually very few weapons you could effectively use 2 handed whilst mounted, other than a bow. think about it.
budleiser 11-02-06, 06:56 AM	interestingly enough, whilst mounted, you technically couldn't possibly use a lance 2 handed, it just isnt physically possible unless you have 3 arms. funny innit. from an actual physical point of view, there are actually very few weapons you could effectively use 2 handed whilst mounted, other than a bow. think about it. Funny no, I don't see any problems. Especially while charging something as the object would be more front oriented. If you were fighting something beside/behind it would be awkward, but there is no facing in D&D so it doesn't matter.
Iswald 11-02-06, 10:33 AM	Given the way lances are used, it's pretty dang stupid to say you could use them two handed or power attack with them. You have to have it tucked under your arm. How are you placing your second hand so that you can, what? Thrust it harder? Swing it harder? Just how are you supposed to take advantage of it? Realisticly, there isn't any way you could (regardless of any balance issues in game). The bonus damage is really coming from the momentum provided by your mount. The rules would more accurately reflect this if the rules for charging worked more like the rules for setting a weapon for a charge.
Puggle Halfwine 11-02-06, 11:45 AM	The problem with that is that, mechanically, with Spirited Charge- a greatsword (two handed) does more damage than a lance (one handed), especially if you start to power attack for a few... lances SHOULD be the ultimate mounted weapon. To be honest, the way I think it should work is that a lance, while mounted, should NOT be able to be used two handed and that, while dismounted, it counts as an improvised longspear (including -4 to hit). However, when used one handed and mounted, the weapon is treated as two handed for the purposes of Power Attack and adding your Strength bonus to damage. In all other respects it is considered a one-handed weapon.
kjenks 11-02-06, 01:04 PM	A lance is listed as a two-handed weapon and it works just fine while mounted. Any rider worthy of the name can automatically make the DC 5 Ride check to steer with knees. You may use a lance one-handed while riding, but you'd lose out on the larger damage bonus from Str and Power Attack that way.
Howie23 11-02-06, 02:13 PM	However, when used one handed and mounted, the weapon is treated as two handed for the purposes of Power Attack and adding your Strength bonus to damage. In all other respects it is considered a one-handed weapon. Where do you get that it is treated as two handed for PA and Str bonus when weilded one handed while mounted? David
DuctShuiTengu 11-02-06, 02:41 PM	Where do you get that it is treated as two handed for PA and Str bonus when weilded one handed while mounted? David You missed the first part of that paragraph. To be honest, the way I think it should work is that a lance, while mounted, should NOT be able to be used two handed and that, while dismounted, it counts as an improvised longspear (including -4 to hit). However, when used one handed and mounted, the weapon is treated as two handed for the purposes of Power Attack and adding your Strength bonus to damage. In all other respects it is considered a one-handed weapon. emphasis mine.
Howie23 11-02-06, 03:22 PM	You missed the first part of that paragraph. Ah. Didn't read it as intended. Thanks for the clarification. David
budleiser 11-02-06, 03:57 PM	Given the way lances are used, it's pretty dang stupid to say you could use them two handed or power attack with them. You have to have it tucked under your arm. How are you placing your second hand so that you can, what? Thrust it harder? Swing it harder? Just how are you supposed to take advantage of it? Realisticly, there isn't any way you could (regardless of any balance issues in game). The bonus damage is really coming from the momentum provided by your mount. The rules would more accurately reflect this if the rules for charging worked more like the rules for setting a weapon for a charge. YAY Flames I take D6 of fire damage. "you technically couldn't possibly use a lance 2 handed" I think what you were TRYING to say was "You couldn't use it 2 handed effectively enought to warrant the 2 handed bonuses to STR and PA" And yes I think you COULD brace it better if held with both hands.
clik_ml 11-02-06, 04:26 PM	Given the way lances are used, it's pretty dang stupid to say you could use them two handed or power attack with them. Heh, if you think that's bad, take -4 to attack and do subdual while doing all that as well. I've caught my fair share of groans when I do that (and at least one player insisting it was illegal, hah!).
_m_ 11-02-06, 04:47 PM	YAY Flames I take D6 of fire damage. "you technically couldn't possibly use a lance 2 handed" I think what you were TRYING to say was "You couldn't use it 2 handed effectively enought to warrant the 2 handed bonuses to STR and PA" And yes I think you COULD brace it better if held with both hands. no, what we were TRYING to say (not trying to flame, simply saying), that based on the size and shape of a lance, its is a physical IMPOSSIBILITY to use it with 2 hands. (and no, not becasue you need to stear, that isnt one of the reasons.) it has 1 grip point, a bracing preventing it from sliding back, which you brace your hand behind, and tuck it under your arm. Not only is there nowhere you could possibly grab it wiht you other hand in any way that would be even remotely helpfull, and not only would said grab require you to drop any shield you hold (which alot of mounted warriors did in fact use), but you would also have to face the insurmountable taski of reaching a heavily armoured arm across your heavily armoured body to grab... the SHAFT of the lance, hence being... not helpfull at all! Basically, the actual physic of it (i dont know if you've ever seen a lance, but it dosent seem like it) is that n omatter how hard you try, it isnt technically possible, whilst mounted (2 hands on foot: fine with me)) to use a lance 2 handed at all. I still think that the damage it deals is appropriate, and it should be the ultimate weapon for a mounted toon, i just found it AMMUSING that the mechanic used to achieve the damage is a technical impossibility. now tell me, why are you so grumpy that i had to just spend 10 minutes explaining what was basically just a joking shot at some of the funnier quirks of the d&d rules?
haferka 11-02-06, 05:31 PM	How about this for the physics of 2-h lance wielding... Your second hand grips the mount pulling you into the blow as you hit. That justifies the 2-h bonus and power attack as far as im concerned...
_m_ 11-02-06, 05:56 PM	How about this for the physics of 2-h lance wielding... Your second hand grips the mount pulling you into the blow as you hit. That justifies the 2-h bonus and power attack as far as im concerned... fine with me... technically still not using the lance 2 handed... you're one hand wielding the lance, and 1 hand wielding the horse *giggle* but yeah, thats as good a reason for it as any i guess.
SgtHulka 11-02-06, 08:06 PM	St. George did it. http://www.catholicforum.com/saints/stg05031.jpg http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/OWP/1663B~Street-George-Posters.jpg ;)
RedKnightofKet 11-02-06, 08:43 PM	That looks to be a spear, not a lance...:rolleyes: St. George did it. http://www.catholicforum.com/saints/stg05031.jpg http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/OWP/1663B~Street-George-Posters.jpg ;)
_m_ 11-02-06, 09:01 PM	That looks to be a spear, not a lance...:rolleyes: aye, that be a spear... notice the lack of... well, the lack of it being a lance, for example. see also: "thats not a knife, its a spoon!"
Gwumph 11-02-06, 09:29 PM	Personally I think you guys are getting to hung up on the image of a lance. Some of you are refering to a jousting lance, which wasn't really used in combat. As the above links show, generally combat lance's didn't have that bracing and specialized grip area. They were much more spear like and generally able to be weilded 2 handed. If you are looking for something visual to go by (p-lease don't flame me for LOTR example) Think of the Riders of Rohan. The lance's they used for their massive charge in the third movie were very similiar to combat lances. and they look nothing like jousting lances. Cheers Gwumph
_m_ 11-02-06, 09:41 PM	hate to tell you buddy, but those are, in fact, spears, not lances. as a lotr fan myself, think of this example: on several occasions, those 'lances' the riders were using were used as thrown weapons... you couldnt possibly throw a lance. By definition, a lance has to have the bracing, else it dosent work. The idea is that by virtue of the bracing, a strong arm, and the positioning, you can add the impact of the charge to the lance. If it had no bracing, when you hit something, it would simply slide out of your hand, this giving you nasty splinters. If its a lance, it has the bracing, and must be used 1 handed (in rl, not in d&d, where physics means less than in the final fantasy 7 movie). If its a spear, you couldnt add impact damage on a charge. its kind of like compairing a greatsword with a dagger. techincally, both are roughly the same shape, and used roughly the same way, but are clearly very different weapons. If you really want a visual example, think the bit in braveheart where william gets betrayed by robert the bruce, and gets un-horsed by him. (im gonna be SO embarrased if i get home and watch it, only to find he's using a spear :D)
RedKnightofKet 11-02-06, 11:10 PM	hate to tell you buddy, but those are, in fact, spears, not lances. as a lotr fan myself, think of this example: on several occasions, those 'lances' the riders were using were used as thrown weapons... you couldnt possibly throw a lance. By definition, a lance has to have the bracing, else it dosent work. The idea is that by virtue of the bracing, a strong arm, and the positioning, you can add the impact of the charge to the lance. If it had no bracing, when you hit something, it would simply slide out of your hand, this giving you nasty splinters. If its a lance, it has the bracing, and must be used 1 handed (in rl, not in d&d, where physics means less than in the final fantasy 7 movie). If its a spear, you couldnt add impact damage on a charge. its kind of like compairing a greatsword with a dagger. techincally, both are roughly the same shape, and used roughly the same way, but are clearly very different weapons. If you really want a visual example, think the bit in braveheart where william gets betrayed by robert the bruce, and gets un-horsed by him. (im gonna be SO embarrased if i get home and watch it, only to find he's using a spear :D) To further back m up, look at the pictures in the PHB: both the light lance and the heavy lance clearly have bracing. OTOH, this is DnD - sometimes the reality of the situation has to take a backseat to the game mechanics: "logic has no place in a good argument"
_m_ 11-03-06, 12:04 AM	To further back m up, look at the pictures in the PHB: both the light lance and the heavy lance clearly have bracing. OTOH, this is DnD - sometimes the reality of the situation has to take a backseat to the game mechanics: "logic has no place in a good argument" in a world where fireballs appear at the flick of a finger, people turn out to be dopplegangers, and people somehow manage to actually USE a spiked chain (which lets face it, is imo, the least likely thing i've ever heard...), its really veyr hard to say "thats not possible". my argument originally just started from a JOKE, that you cant use a lance 2 handed. hell, most people cant fly either, but that seems to happen alot. liten up people. oh, anf /wave /cheer at redknight :D
ezreal2001 11-03-06, 12:36 AM	hate to tell you buddy, but those are, in fact, spears, not lances. as a lotr fan myself, think of this example: on several occasions, those 'lances' the riders were using were used as thrown weapons... you couldnt possibly throw a lance. By definition, a lance has to have the bracing, else it dosent work. The idea is that by virtue of the bracing, a strong arm, and the positioning, you can add the impact of the charge to the lance. If it had no bracing, when you hit something, it would simply slide out of your hand, this giving you nasty splinters. If its a lance, it has the bracing, and must be used 1 handed (in rl, not in d&d, where physics means less than in the final fantasy 7 movie). If its a spear, you couldnt add impact damage on a charge. its kind of like compairing a greatsword with a dagger. techincally, both are roughly the same shape, and used roughly the same way, but are clearly very different weapons. If you really want a visual example, think the bit in braveheart where william gets betrayed by robert the bruce, and gets un-horsed by him. (im gonna be SO embarrased if i get home and watch it, only to find he's using a spear :D) Max, Max, Max, A lance is a spear is a lance. Hell, at the end of day the're just long sticks with a sharp pointy end. [edit] BTW what you're refering to as bracing is actually a bit of armour called a vamplate. Lances used by C15th European Knights were equiped with vamplates to provide some additional protection to the right hand while charging. But whats really important here is how weapon is being used. In a charge the real damage is done because the rider has his spear firmly couched up under his arm so that when the tip hits something, that tip will be driven home by the total momentum of horse and rider and victim.
_m_ 11-03-06, 01:17 AM	Max, Max, Max, A lance is a spear is a lance. Hell, at the end of day the're just long sticks with a sharp pointy end. [edit] BTW what you're refering to as bracing is actually a bit of armour called a vamplate. Lances used by C15th European Knights were equiped with vamplates to provide some additional protection to the right hand while charging. But whats really important here is how weapon is being used. In a charge the real damage is done because the rider has his spear firmly couched up under his arm so that when the tip hits something, that tip will be driven home by the total momentum of horse and rider and victim. true, but without the bracing, it would still come out of your grip more often than not. lance is a spear is a lance... dagger is a greatsword is a dagger. il keep that in mind next time i hit sum1 with a dagger :D as for damage, in real combat, you more often than not didnt need the lance. a barded warhorse would kill anything it ran over anyway :D
ezreal2001 11-03-06, 02:10 AM	true, but without the bracing, it would still come out of your grip more often than not. Actually you just need a good firm grip. lance is a spear is a lance... dagger is a greatsword is a dagger. il keep that in mind next time i hit sum1 with a dagger :D Its all in the wrist action. And besides someone killed by a rock is just as dead as as someone killed by a nuclear weapon.
_m_ 11-03-06, 03:15 AM	Actually you just need a good firm grip. Its all in the wrist action. And besides someone killed by a rock is just as dead as as someone killed by a nuclear weapon. i disagree... someone killed by a rock could probably just get a raise dead. im fairly sure you'd need a true rez to get some1 wiped out by a nuclear weapon... and i dont have access or the spare cash. as for wrist action...im a gnome. gnomes are so small that they have less joints (no movable ankles or wrists, just knees and elbows. makes doing stuff alot harder.) *smile*
JamesMaissen 11-05-06, 01:23 AM	Umm.. it doesn't matter whether you use one hand or two hands for the lance. The lance is a twohanded weapon. That is it's classification. It's special ability is that while mounted you only need one hand to use it, but that doesn't change what class of melee weapon it is, nor effect your STR or Power Attack bonuses. Now check STR mod to damage.. when using a twohanded weapon you get 1 1/2x MOD. Check. Now check Power Attack.. when using a twohanded weapon (or one-handed weapon in two hands) you get 2:1 ratio. Again check. -James
_m_ 11-05-06, 07:17 AM	i think everyone is being silly. i was never arguing about the lance, its 2 handedness, its power attack ratio, its usefullness, or its design schematics. i was just joking around about how ammusing some d&d rules are. everyone needs to lighten up a little.
Puggle Halfwine 11-05-06, 07:30 AM	Umm.. it doesn't matter whether you use one hand or two hands for the lance. The lance is a twohanded weapon. That is it's classification. It's special ability is that while mounted you only need one hand to use it, but that doesn't change what class of melee weapon it is, nor effect your STR or Power Attack bonuses. Now check STR mod to damage.. when using a twohanded weapon you get 1 1/2x MOD. Check. Now check Power Attack.. when using a twohanded weapon (or one-handed weapon in two hands) you get 2:1 ratio. Again check. -James Wow. Ok, the moment I saw this I instantly dismissed it- but after talking with a mate about how "wrong" it is, we actually did some reading and found out that you're at least partially right. We came to the conclusion that you DO get double power attack when wielding a lance, mounted, with one hand- but you do NOT gain double your stength modifier when doing so. The reasons for this are as follows, highlighted for emphasis: A lance is a two-handed melee weapon requiring martial weapon proficiency. However, as noted under the lance description, it reads: While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand. The lance does NOT become a one-handed weapon- it is simply a two-handed weapon, being wielded in one hand. If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. So, you definately gain the double Power Attack from a mounted lance wielded in one hand. However... If you score a hit, roll damage a deduct it from a target's current hit points. Add your Strength modifier on damage rolls involving melee and thrown weapons. If you're using a weapon in your off hand, add one-half your Strength modifier (if it's a bonus). If you're wielding a weapon with both hands, add one and a half times your Strength modifier (if it's a bonus). So, you do NOT get one-and-a-half times your Strength modifier when wielding a lance one-handed, but you DO get double your Power Attack bonus. I think that's quite clear, actually...
Maesto 11-05-06, 08:36 AM	Uh? I think you screwed that last sentence up there Dave. You don't get 3/2 your strength when using it one handed, although you do get 2x PA. Two handed, you get 3/2 strength and 2x PA. Correct?
Puggle Halfwine 11-05-06, 09:14 AM	Opps. Yes, that's correct. I'll edit my post to reflect the change.
budleiser 11-05-06, 09:50 AM	Umm.. it doesn't matter whether you use one hand or two hands for the lance. The lance is a twohanded weapon. That is it's classification. It's special ability is that while mounted you only need one hand to use it, but that doesn't change what class of melee weapon it is, nor effect your STR or Power Attack bonuses. Now check STR mod to damage.. when using a twohanded weapon you get 1 1/2x MOD. Check. Now check Power Attack.. when using a twohanded weapon (or one-handed weapon in two hands) you get 2:1 ratio. Again check. -James Wow did not realize you would get the PA x2 even if wielding it one handed kinda neat. Don't think ill give up my 1/2 str bonus to gain a shield though. From the rules excerpt below it does look like the str bonus requires 2 hands, not a 2handed weapon.
JamesMaissen 11-05-06, 10:55 AM	So, you do NOT get one-and-a-half times your Strength modifier when wielding a lance one-handed, but you DO get double your Power Attack bonus. I think that's quite clear, actually... I did miss the reference on page 135. But that doesn't cover fringe cases (for example the rapier) so I'm not sure how clear it actually is when you look at the wordings on page 8 and page 113 (pressed for time so I appologise for not quoting them here). So I'm not quite sure which way it should be now. If you take the page 135 passage as a general case (and if you look at other things there it certainly is) then the lance might be an exception. If you look at page 113 one could see the lance qualifying for 1 1/2x STR and just removing the need for both hands. Personally I lean towards the later as I, too, don't like the picture of someone using a lance with both hands.. let alone it being beneficial to do so. That is also what I think the spirit of the rules is trying to do here and avoid. -James -James
DuctShuiTengu 11-05-06, 11:33 AM	Wow. Ok, the moment I saw this I instantly dismissed it- but after talking with a mate about how "wrong" it is, we actually did some reading and found out that you're at least partially right. We came to the conclusion that you DO get double power attack when wielding a lance, mounted, with one hand- but you do NOT gain double your stength modifier when doing so. The reasons for this are as follows, highlighted for emphasis: A lance is a two-handed melee weapon requiring martial weapon proficiency. However, as noted under the lance description, it reads: The lance does NOT become a one-handed weapon- it is simply a two-handed weapon, being wielded in one hand. So, you definately gain the double Power Attack from a mounted lance wielded in one hand. However... So, you do NOT get one-and-a-half times your Strength modifier when wielding a lance one-handed, but you DO get double your Power Attack bonus. I think that's quite clear, actually... ... Anyone else have visions of Rangers with Lion's Pounce and Oversized Two Weapon Fighting charging through their head? EDIT: Then again, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting says it applies when you're using a one-handed weapon in your off-hand, so it might not apply here.
budleiser 11-05-06, 03:03 PM	To help out James above here are the rules in question as follows... PHB Pg 8 STRENGTH (STR) Strength measures your character’s muscle and physical power. This ability is especially important for fighters, barbarians, paladins, rangers, and monks because it helps them prevail in combat. Strength also limits the amount of equipment your character can carry (see Chapter 9: Adventuring). You apply your character’s Strength modifier to: -Melee attack rolls. -Damage rolls when using a melee weapon or a thrown weapon (including a sling). (Exceptions: Off-hand attacks receive only one half the character’s Strength bonus, while two-handed attacks receive one and a half times the Strength bonus. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies to attacks made with a bow that is not a composite bow.) PHB Pg 113 One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his or her Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls. Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon PHB, pg 135 If you score a hit, roll damage a deduct it from a target's current hit points. Add your Strength modifier on damage rolls involving melee and thrown weapons. If you're using a weapon in your off hand, add one-half your Strength modifier (if it's a bonus). If you're wielding a weapon with both hands, add one and a half times your Strength modifier (if it's a bonus). ____________________________________ With all of this taken into account, I would personally say you get 1+1/2 strength bonus when wielding the lance mounted one handed, because it is a 2handed weapon that has the exception of being able to wield one handed while mounted.
copper_wyrmling 11-05-06, 04:40 PM	With all of this taken into account, I would personally say you get 1+1/2 strength bonus when wielding the lance mounted one handed, because it is a 2handed weapon that has the exception of being able to wield one handed while mounted. Sorry guys - there is a FAQ ruling on this question, see the bottom of p30. The relevant quote is, "When the combat rules speak of “two-handed” weapons, they’re referring to how the weapon is being used. A Medium character using a Medium longsword in two hands is using a “two-handed” weapon. The same character using a Medium lance in one hand while mounted is using a one-handed weapon." This is an answer to a question about whether you get 2:1 power attack and x1.5 Str damage when using a lance one-handed from horseback.
ezreal2001 11-05-06, 07:15 PM	i disagree... someone killed by a rock could probably just get a raise dead. im fairly sure you'd need a true rez to get some1 wiped out by a nuclear weapon... and i dont have access or the spare cash. *smile* OK, what if we freeze the deceased, then toss then in a wood chipper? (Yeah, the ran the episode of Bones where they put the frozen pig in a wood chipper here the other week. And yeah the wife watchs it)
_m_ 11-05-06, 07:21 PM	OK, what if we freeze the deceased, then toss then in a wood chipper? (Yeah, the ran the episode of Bones where they put the frozen pig in a wood chipper here the other week. And yeah the wife watchs it) i guess then technically since the corpse is still in 1... pile, and thus technically all there, a normal raise would do the trick... though they might end up with bits of other creatures (like aforementioned pig) in the make up... half elf, half orc, half ogre, and half pig... the halfbreed races. advantage of a half pig?
JamesMaissen 11-06-06, 10:13 AM	Sorry guys - there is a FAQ ruling on this question, see the bottom of p30. Eww. Nasty ruling and not something I'm caring too much for... well guess it's back to everyone using a lance in twohands then... -James
Puggle Halfwine 11-06-06, 01:00 PM	Whops, oh well. There goes that idea...
paigeoliver 11-06-06, 10:06 PM	Your reply went to a spammer who thought this was a forum for a MMORPG. Variations on that same message get posted by the thousands on boards for those games. He was trying to direct people to his account selling website. aside from it being ilegal, and against the rules, and not sanctioned, and not allowed, and silly... but its not something you may do. there have been a few threads on this, which all get rather promptly locked, the gyst of them being: Any and all adventure doctumentation is property of wizards, has 0 cash value, and may not be sold at all. The value of 2 years work would be more well then you'd feel like paying Anyone who found out you were playing a bought character would probably refuse to play with you (i know i would) you'd be a fairly pathetic character if you only just started playing it at lvl 10. ... its against the rules. that about cover it?
budleiser 11-06-06, 10:52 PM	Sorry guys - there is a FAQ ruling on this question, see the bottom of p30. The relevant quote is, "When the combat rules speak of “two-handed” weapons, they’re referring to how the weapon is being used. A Medium character using a Medium longsword in two hands is using a “two-handed” weapon. The same character using a Medium lance in one hand while mounted is using a one-handed weapon." This is an answer to a question about whether you get 2:1 power attack and x1.5 Str damage when using a lance one-handed from horseback. There went 3 points of AC as I give up on buying a LG Shield +1... Guess ill have to save up $ for the animated shield.
timaoh 11-13-06, 12:40 PM	You were a thri-kreen paladin... Could you wield 4 lances one handed while riding your horsie? :confused:
_m_ 11-13-06, 05:13 PM	You were a thri-kreen paladin... Could you wield 4 lances one handed while riding your horsie? :confused: how about an 8 lance wielding octopus wild shape?
Lupo 11-13-06, 05:27 PM	how about an 8 lance wielding octopus wild shape? riding on what?????? ok, summon a cachalot whale, this should be big enough, as long as it doesn't take the octopus as a snack :D ciao martin m.
_m_ 11-13-06, 05:47 PM	riding on what?????? ok, summon a cachalot whale, this should be big enough, as long as it doesn't take the octopus as a snack :D ciao martin m. reduce teh octopus, or enlarge something else... octopus on an elephant would be... flavourfull.
Iswald 11-14-06, 10:34 AM	Seriously, is it in LG? I know most of your games are going to end up with u running around in a dungeon and ur horse outside hoping owlbears don't get it. Back on topic. I played a number of mods this weekend, hoping to do some mounted combat. First mod, started in the desert and had to get onto a ship before any encounters. Left the horse behind as it wouldn't be able to use the magical traonsportation required at the end of the mod. Second mod, had to use a ship to reach our destination, so left the horse behind again. Third mod, started on a beach. After the first round, I was in position to charge the BBEG only to have a druid with a long spear step into my charge lane. :( This was followed by spending some time inside and, yet again, getting onto a ship, after having to run away, leaving the horse behind and hoping the noble helping us would take care of it. Fourth mod, we were teleported to another location and knew we'd be going inside, didn't even bother to bring the horse. At the start of the fifth mod, I was in a position to charge with a lance. But, it was a weird situation and I wasn't sure if attacking was a good idea. The encounter seemed to be more of a puzzle than a combat. I decided to dismount and try something different. The rest of the mod was underground. I suspect that it'll be a while before this PC can do much mounted combat.
_m_ 11-15-06, 05:14 PM	big bag of holding and a bottle of air. cary that horse with u :D
Britt 11-15-06, 05:34 PM	big bag of holding and a bottle of air. cary that horse with u :D I think you would need a portable hole, but same theory :) On topic, I played up to 18th with a ftr/bbn that had mounted combat feats and loved it. I didn't get to use it all the time, but when I did it was deadly and many times needed. As for getting it where you go, try to find horseshoes of the zephyr. You can ride your horse on water next to the boat and drag it along behind when it needs to sleep :) Get a block and tackle so you can lower it down into entrances of caves and the like. One thing you should always know when taking mounted feats is that you won't be able to use them all the time. If you expect to be able to, you'll only end up disappointed. This is nothing specific to LG, but something inherent in the genre; in most campaigns, you will not always be outside, or even usually be so. That said, I think they are balanced to be worthwhile when you are outside. Granted, if you were a non-fighter with fewer feats, it might not be worth it.
_m_ 11-15-06, 05:55 PM	I think you would need a portable hole, but same theory :) On topic, I played up to 18th with a ftr/bbn that had mounted combat feats and loved it. I didn't get to use it all the time, but when I did it was deadly and many times needed. As for getting it where you go, try to find horseshoes of the zephyr. You can ride your horse on water next to the boat and drag it along behind when it needs to sleep :) Get a block and tackle so you can lower it down into entrances of caves and the like. One thing you should always know when taking mounted feats is that you won't be able to use them all the time. If you expect to be able to, you'll only end up disappointed. This is nothing specific to LG, but something inherent in the genre; in most campaigns, you will not always be outside, or even usually be so. That said, I think they are balanced to be worthwhile when you are outside. Granted, if you were a non-fighter with fewer feats, it might not be worth it. alot of the smaller mounts work fine in dungeons. sure, a gnome does less damage than a human... but if i was a level 14 cavalier, id rather be a level 14 cavalier mounted on my dog than a level 14 cavalier on foot...
Iswald 11-15-06, 11:23 PM	One thing you should always know when taking mounted feats is that you won't be able to use them all the time. If you expect to be able to, you'll only end up disappointed. I had never expected that I'd be able to use mounted feats all the time. At second level, I picked power attack instead of spirited charge. It was surprising how vigorously some people felt the order of the two should be reversed. Based on previous mods though, I would have expected a few more opportunities to use mounted combat over the course of six rounds of mods.
budleiser 11-15-06, 11:49 PM	Sigh... Medium creatures taking mounted combat feats is just silly. Might as well throw in some levels of scout while your at it. Medium Lance D8 translates to 4.5 damage on average Small Lance D6 translates to 3.5 damage on average X3 this works out to 13.5 Damage and 10.5 damage. So you give up 1-3 points of damage but you gain the ability to X3 much much much more often. So really how I look at it is Medium Lance 1D8+Str+Other Modifiers Small Lance 3D6+Str(3)+Other Modifier(3) In which case a small creature does ALOT more damage. I would be VERY interested to see you play a medium character to level 8 and let me know how many Mods you actually get to mounted charge. 90% of the mods my halfling plays he gets to charge and usually to great effect. There have been a couple mods where OUR druid has entangled the charge lane. There was one mod where I didn't get to charge much because I had to tank for the 4 spellcasters! (3 Healing Clerics!) But yes there have been a couple where teleportation issues have stopped the mount from coming. If you chose medium for RolePlay reasons thats great im not trying to knock RPers. Just trying to help people who are thinking about cavalry builds. Go small!
Britt 11-16-06, 01:07 AM	If your goal is to use mounted feats as often as possible, small is definitely better. I've always viewed mounted feats, though, as an option for medium sized fighters. When able, a medium fighter can use mounted combat; when unable, a medium fighter can just stand there and deal lots of damage swinging a weapon multiple times. As a fighter, you get a lot of feats, so it's not as much of an investment and you can "get your money's worth" more readily. I guess it's a better ROI :) Iswald: I wasn't implying that you did think you would always get to. I was just giving advice about how to view the feats and get maximum enjoyment. It's akin to going into a movie with low expectations v. high expectations; you'll usually enjoy a movie more if you start with low expectations.
Gwumph 11-16-06, 01:25 AM	Iswald To take it 1 step futher. Last mod I played in you started by crawling down/through a 200 foot tunnel. The mod specifically said large sized creatures could not fit through. (i.e. a horse) but because i am halfling and my mount is a dog (medium size) it could fit through. The rest of the adventure took place underground. I made several charges including 2 critical charges against the BBEG doing 74 of 90 points of damage to take him down. (i was 4th level at the time) The point is if you want to charge go small, because then your mount is the same size as a normal human and can go everywhere a normal sized PC could go. Small is the way to go, and as I stated earlier in this thread by 4th level Power attack increase you Damage much more than Spirited charge. Of course to really dish out the damage (as mentioned above) you need both!! Cheers Gwumph
Iswald 11-16-06, 10:23 AM	Due to the nature of the mods in question, being small would have increased the number of encounters where I could have charged by exactly zero. It might have been different with a higher level character. My PC leveled from 2 to 3. :) One of my PCs is a gnome druid who originally was going to do some mounted combat or casting. But, at conversion, went to summoning instead. I know that there are more opportunities for smaller cavelry types. However, I think they're too silly to play.
_m_ 11-16-06, 04:54 PM	you could always: be a medium paladin mounted character, and just call ur mount when u need it. or, take sum spells / scrolls of reduce animal, and shrink it to fit it when its too big.
Britt 11-16-06, 05:04 PM	I always carried scrolls of mount and at higher levels would politely ask if the wizard could mem phantom steed, which they were always happy to do.
_m_ 11-16-06, 05:19 PM	I always carried scrolls of mount and at higher levels would politely ask if the wizard could mem phantom steed, which they were always happy to do. though alot of us dont HAVE phantom steed... u cud always summon monster and get sum big animals... but they might be a bit... stupid / akward to mount...
Britt 11-16-06, 05:22 PM	though alot of us dont HAVE phantom steed... Phantom steed is a core access scroll from the DMG; just buy one and scribe it. It's extremely useful.
_m_ 11-16-06, 05:26 PM	Phantom steed is a core access scroll from the DMG; just buy one and scribe it. It's extremely useful. SHHHH! i object to buying things that arent boats.
Britt 11-16-06, 06:23 PM	You could call it an improvement to your spellboat. If you say it a little oddly, it sounds like it could go either way.
Lupo 11-16-06, 06:49 PM	SHHHH! i object to buying things that arent boats. you can use a couple of "phantom steeds" to pull your boat upstream and against the wind :) ok, you have to cast them as a 10th level caster, but then they get "water walk", later at 12th level they can even drag your boat through the air ;) ciao martin m.
_m_ 11-16-06, 08:36 PM	you can use a couple of "phantom steeds" to pull your boat upstream and against the wind :) ok, you have to cast them as a 10th level caster, but then they get "water walk", later at 12th level they can even drag your boat through the air ;) ciao martin m. maybe if i glued them to the sides and made them swim... it'd go faster... hmmm...
Gelth 11-17-06, 11:22 AM	I've been carring scrolls of Mount since, well, a very long time anyway. It's one of the first things on my MIL, so since then anyway. I almost always travel with a wizard who is willing to use if if I ask, and indeed is usually the one holding it during mods (I just pass it to her at the start). It's been used maybe three or four times total, and replaced each time. My character is 13th level. Now, granted, being able to summon a Paladin's mount really makes the scroll less useful, and we've gone to lengths such as Baleful Polymorphing my mount to get it through tight areas (and dispelling it aftewards), although only a couple of times. I figure that I manage to use the mount in about half of encounters in about half of modules, more since high level spells like Air Walk became available at the table. I've had a warhorse since my very first module (River of Blood), and I've never regretted my choice of being a human on a warhorse. It's not for everyone, but as long as you make sure you can still contribute off the horse, you'll be good, I think. --Penn, Ket Triad
PaulH 11-18-06, 08:35 AM	Hi But what about Druid mounted combat? Druids get very interesting mounts, and are versatile enough for times when they can't use them. Dire Bats, for example, can detect invisible creatures by sonar (except in silenced area). And that Shillelagh spell cast on a Great Club does 3d8 base damage! (So Druid/Fighter/Druid....). One thing to spend feats to enhance specific type combat capability, quite another to entirely devote your whole character to it! (Still think Druid most versatile class around). Cheers Paul H PS Taking a Druid as cohort to shift into a special mount is just a bit too beardy for me! (He won't get your animal companion bonuses,either).
PaulH 11-18-06, 08:49 AM	Hi What's worse is that a 10th lvl Druid, with an 8th lvl Druid Cohort could shift into Dire Bats, with their 2 Dire Bat Animal Companions would be able to provide mounts for 4 other PC's. Air Cav. anyone? [Cue music: Military band playing 633 Sqn theme). Eoooooooow! Horrible thought. Munchkin............... Cheers Paul H
haferka 11-19-06, 07:06 PM	LG does NOT allow PCs (or cohorts) to serve as mounts for other PCs. Hi What's worse is that a 10th lvl Druid, with an 8th lvl Druid Cohort could shift into Dire Bats, with their 2 Dire Bat Animal Companions would be able to provide mounts for 4 other PC's. Air Cav. anyone? [Cue music: Military band playing 633 Sqn theme). Eoooooooow! Horrible thought. Munchkin............... Cheers Paul H
PaulH 11-20-06, 03:01 PM	LG does NOT allow PCs (or cohorts) to serve as mounts for other PCs. Hi Since when? Understand about the Cohort - he's there because of/to support - ME. But to state that I can't carry another is entirely different. The ONLY case I heard about PC mounts is re Centaurs - because they don't like it as a race - nothing to do with PC's as mounts. I can buy multiple riding mounts for the party, so why shouldn't a Beastmaster provide companion mounts for himself & the party? (OK, probably only 2, principle's the same). Please point out the LGCS page, in case I missed it. Cheers Paul H
haferka 11-20-06, 04:10 PM	Perhaps you are correct. I can not find a reference that prevents PCs from serving as mounts... But I distinctly remember is not being allowed... I just can't find it right now... I will continue looking.. untill then .. mount up!
chesspiece 11-20-06, 04:39 PM	The best reference I could find was: "Centaurs are not mounted creatures and PCs can't be used as mounts by other PCs. -Steven Conforti" http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/Living_Greyhawk/message/75323
PaulH 11-20-06, 07:56 PM	Hi Yes - but that case was for people trying to use PC Centaurs as mounts. Not sure if the example is a good one. Not sure I would act as a mount if I was a Druid, since I would effectively allow my character to be controlled by another - which is why it might be disallowed in the future. Still - the idea of a Str 18 PC Druid charging on a Dire Bat, wielding a Shillelagh (Gt Club, 3D8 dam), supported by a similar mounted & armed Dakon Cohort is a bit frightening. ;) Cheers Paul H
budleiser 11-20-06, 09:53 PM	You cannot ride other PC's. They can "carry you" but you are not "riding" them. Its so you cannot: Use mounted combat feat to up their AC, duck behind them for cover, ride check to spur the mount, burst of speed feat to double distance. And all the other broken tricky things you could pull off if you were allowed to mount PC's. The letter of the rule is, if their a PC you cannot mount them. Even if they polymorph/shift into a horse.
_m_ 11-20-06, 10:04 PM	if mounting stupidly powerfull things is your... um... thing, just get rideable companion animals. ie. cloud giant riding t-rex. that sort of thing.
Lupo 11-21-06, 01:08 AM	if mounting stupidly powerfull things is your... um... thing, just get rideable companion animals. ie. cloud giant riding t-rex. that sort of thing. you know that is what the wonderfull d&d mini "tundra scout" is for. ok it is only a frost giant on a mammoth, but your players will love you when you put the mini on the battlemat anywhere below APL 8 ;) ciao martin m. ps: my tiger or bear, brown riding halfling druid 10 is scary enough, the beasts tend to dish out vast amounts of damage with "magic fang, gt" and a "nature's favour, swift". their AC is still moderately good with some leather armor, or better a mage armor and "barkskin" for results in the mid 20ies.
_m_ 11-21-06, 06:14 PM	ps: my tiger or bear, brown riding halfling druid 10 is scary enough, the beasts tend to dish out vast amounts of damage with "magic fang, gt" and a "nature's favour, swift". their AC is still moderately good with some leather armor, or better a mage armor and "barkskin" for results in the mid 20ies. by and large, most of the druid pets' ac is irreleveant, they seem to just survive by virtue of there hp, and quick killing. id be confident my old familiar would just about double the ac of any druid pet its level, and id be confident also that my new familiar would be infinitely more survivable... BUT: the damn druid pets seem to have millions of hp, and do several billion damage... which is somewhat unlike the 1d3 from my old pet :D i mean really, who needs to ride a rhino at apl 8... it kills anything it touches anyway. interesting. i think i just argued against my previous post. hmmm.
Jay_Ibero_911 11-21-06, 10:43 PM	I have a gnome druid who is habitually mounted on his trusty riding dog, and mounted spellcasting can be incredibly convenient. Epsecially getting to double move while casting and only needing a very low DC (10+spell level). At level 9, I auto make the check to cast any of my spells while my mount double moves. Also convenient for getting into a tactical position for an Arc of Lightning or something similar.
copper_wyrmling 11-21-06, 11:02 PM	I have a gnome druid who is habitually mounted on his trusty riding dog, and mounted spellcasting can be incredibly convenient. Epsecially getting to double move while casting and only needing a very low DC (10+spell level). At level 9, I auto make the check to cast any of my spells while my mount double moves. Also convenient for getting into a tactical position for an Arc of Lightning or something similar. Yeah. My sorc is *trying* to do this with Phantom Steed, so she can get her metamagicked ray spells to work when she starts out of Close range of the enemies. So far it has had mixed success, mostly because I keep thinking, "Nah, the cave entrance is only five minutes walk away, I can't justify summoning a horse for that", and then we *always* get an encounter in those five minutes. Next time, I will cast Phantom Steed whenever the opportunity arises... seeing as I have seven (or maybe eight now? must check) third-level spell slots, it's not a big cost. That said... the last game I played, *everyone* had flying Phantom Steeds, and as a result the final BBEG decided that it didn't want to play with us anymore and retreated into its lair. Then we sat around on our pretty horses, 180ft up in the air, looking glumly at the point where the now angry and fully alerted monster had disappeared into its home base... (we did chase it eventually, the ensuing two rounds did more damage to the party than the rest of the encounters in the two-round module put together) So when everyone has a 240ft fly speed, make sure you kill the monsters fast, before they realise how outmatched they are and decide to run away with all your treasure and experience ;)
_m_ 11-21-06, 11:11 PM	Yeah. My sorc is *trying* to do this with Phantom Steed, so she can get her metamagicked ray spells to work when she starts out of Close range of the enemies. So far it has had mixed success, mostly because I keep thinking, "Nah, the cave entrance is only five minutes walk away, I can't justify summoning a horse for that", and then we *always* get an encounter in those five minutes. Next time, I will cast Phantom Steed whenever the opportunity arises... seeing as I have seven (or maybe eight now? must check) third-level spell slots, it's not a big cost. That said... the last game I played, *everyone* had flying Phantom Steeds, and as a result the final BBEG decided that it didn't want to play with us anymore and retreated into its lair. Then we sat around on our pretty horses, 180ft up in the air, looking glumly at the point where the now angry and fully alerted monster had disappeared into its home base... (we did chase it eventually, the ensuing two rounds did more damage to the party than the rest of the encounters in the two-round module put together) So when everyone has a 240ft fly speed, make sure you kill the monsters fast, before they realise how outmatched they are and decide to run away with all your treasure and experience ;) if your not up for burning 3rds on phantom steeds, try the simple level 1 mount. sure, its inferior, but if you want to be mounted, but arent sure wether burning a whole higher spell is worth it, its the go.