Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rogar2465 10-23-05, 09:22 PM	The only way we won was she was attacking non leathal, and 3 PC's assisted my dwarf fighter each round untill it was down.Why would the Mod wrighter use a monster with such a high AC at first level? last night in a 2nd-4th we had 4-2nd and 2-1st level PCs and faught a werebat-DR10/silver....yes silver weapons were provided but no X-bow bolts or mace,and my PC was a cleric of Pelor and didnt like using a spear,and couldn't beat the DR. Otherwise we had a great time, the con was good, if a bit poorly advertised. The staff did a good job dispite restarting after 4 years without a con. Rogar :cool:
kenobi65 10-23-05, 11:37 PM	Well, unless it was an Introductory adventure, you weren't playing a 1st level adventure...you were playing an adventure at APL2 (and even Intro adventures are written at APL2, but they tend to not be as challenging, because the writers know that they'll be all 1st level PCs). A green hag is CR5...which, by the book, is considered to be a highly challenging, but not inappropriate, foe for an average APL2 party. And, while you didn't have an easy time of it, it sounds like your party figured out a way to defeat it. Also, as you point out, the monster wasn't hitting you as hard as she could have. That said...I think the CR of 5 for that monster is low. And, if you had a party of all 1st-level PCs, you obviously are going to have a tougher time of it than a party with some 2nd (even 3rd) level PCs, which could also be playing at APL2. As for the werebat...well, as you said, silver weapons *were* provided...it's not the writer's fault if PCs choose not to use them because they're not their *preferred* weapons.
King Kashue 10-24-05, 02:45 AM	AC 22 is high, but not insane for an APL2 (think about it, there are 1st level PCs with AC 21)...A Brand new 1st Level fighter will likely be +5 to hit (+1 BAB, +1 Weapon Focus, +3 Str), and most 2nd level fighters would be +7 to hit (+2 BAB, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Masterwork, +3 Str)... A 1st Level Half-Orc Barbarian could be as high as +9 to hit (+1 BAB, +1 Weapon Focus, +5 Str, +2 Rage), +11 at second level...He's hitting half the time as a 2nd level... Remember, APL 2 can have players up to 4th level... And I actually don't think she's under CRed at 5...A group of 4-5 5th level characters would finish her off pretty easily, using up around 20% of their resources, which is exactly what that CR means...Now the Greater Barhegest, that's under CRed at 5, D-dooring and blinking all over the bloody place... If she was in an intro mod, yes that's nasty and excessive... :D
Simpi 10-24-05, 04:25 AM	And there is always an option for using touch attack options such as alchemist fire, tanglefoot bag, acid, etc. against it's quite pathetic AC11. Personally my 1st or 2nd level characters never leave home without a few of these and because their price is really not that high, there is no real reason to be without, unless you are a monk character with 20gp to start with. :) S.H, the guy from Naerie
chrisinpm 11-01-05, 12:51 AM	[QUOTE=rogar2465]The only way we won was she was attacking non leathal, and 3 PC's assisted my dwarf fighter each round untill it was down.Why would the Mod wrighter use a monster with such a high AC at first level? The creature in question was also artificially reduced to 20hp, and parties facing her find she is either (a) blind or (b) attacks for nonlethal damage (and suffers a -4 to hit for doing so), depending on how you play the module. The combat is challenging for an intro module, but those mitigating factors should be taken into account by readers. Christian Alipounarian Living Greyhawk, Keoland Triad - Plots and Scenarios
Some_call_me_Tim 11-01-05, 11:01 AM	Remember, APL 2 can have players up to 4th level... Yes, and 4th level adventures can have players as low as 2nd level. What's the point? Should we write APL 4 adventures to be easy on 2nd level characters that might be playing? Tables can be played with as few as four players. Yes, that is a legal table, Six players is a luxury (that bumps the APL). Modules should be balanced for appropriate level characters, not for whoever might play. An APL 2 module should be written to challenge 4 level 2 characters, not one 4th, two 3rd, and two 2nd that might play. For the record, I wouldn't consider a CR5 creature appropriate for an introductory module, even with the mitigating circumstances. The creature still has a relatively high AC and SR for first level adventures to cope with. It has a relatively high to-hit modifier against the AC that an introductory character could expect to have. Is it beatable, sure, is it appropriate, no. If it was an APL 2 adventure and not an intro module, I would still kinda frown on it, but a 2nd level you should be able to hit AC 22 and have enough AC and/or hp to survive more than a single round. At werebat when the module provides something to defeat the DR doesn't sound nearly as bat. I would have to see but that challenge sounds appropriate to me on the surface.
King Kashue 11-01-05, 01:27 PM	Yes, and 4th level adventures can have players as low as 2nd level. What's the point? Should we write APL 4 adventures to be easy on 2nd level characters that might be playing? Tables can be played with as few as four players. Yes, that is a legal table, Six players is a luxury (that bumps the APL). Modules should be balanced for appropriate level characters, not for whoever might play. An APL 2 module should be written to challenge 4 level 2 characters, not one 4th, two 3rd, and two 2nd that might play. So it should be built to challenge the weakest possible party? APL is a range, not a point...In the case of APL 2, your argument holds more water since there is no way for the 4 player party to play down, and thus it should be a bit easier on the "low end" than other APLs, but APL is still a range and modules need to be challenging for that range, not just one bit of it...Not every module can be finished by every party and that's just a reality... Should every APL2 module be written so that it can be completed by 4 2nd level Bards? That's a legal table of appropriate levels, it's also a horribly unbalanced and weak party that unless played incredibly well likely shouldn't finish an APL2 table... The example you provide as a "strong table" isn't even APL3...14 char levels, 5 players, APL 2.8...This is the table that should find the adventure a fun challenge, not the table that should cakewalk it... You said "Modules should be balanced for appropriate level characters, not for whoever might play." Except you're doing the exact same thing...You're not balancing for all possibilities, you're balancing for the lowest levels that "might" play...Most tables have a mix of characters from APL-2 to APL+2, and the module should be built for that...And the average table has 5 people, and modules should be built for that... For the record, I wouldn't consider a CR5 creature appropriate for an introductory module, even with the mitigating circumstances. The creature still has a relatively high AC and SR for first level adventures to cope with. It has a relatively high to-hit modifier against the AC that an introductory character could expect to have. Is it beatable, sure, is it appropriate, no. If it was an APL 2 adventure and not an intro module, I would still kinda frown on it, but a 2nd level you should be able to hit AC 22 and have enough AC and/or hp to survive more than a single round. It's an EL5 encounter with all it's normal stats...In this case it has 40% of its hit points and It was either blind (dropping it's AC 3 points, giving it a 50% miss chance on every swing against the PCs, and preventing it from taking 5 foot steps) or it was attacking for non-lethal...In the latter case, no PC is going to die, in the former case, spread out and use missile weapons... The hit points alone drop the EL by 1 and the tactics by at least .5 (obviously there is no EL 3.5, but you get the idea)...A 1st level fighter will hit her either 20% of the time (if she can see) or 35% of the time (if she can't) and he's doing an average of around 7 points or so, which means the characters need to score 3-5 hits on her to bring her down...That's not overpowered...
Some_call_me_Tim 11-01-05, 09:26 PM	So it should be built to challenge the weakest possible party? I never said that. APL is a range, not a point... Precisely, that is why you should write for the average party not for a strong party or a weak party. APL is still a range and modules need to be challenging for that range, not just one bit of it... What little bit of the range do you suggest? The party that it should be written for is the appropriate level, that is the whole idea of Average Player Level. Shouldn't an APL4 module be written for an average level four party? Not the 5th level party nor the 3rd level party. If you are stronger than expected it will be easier, if you are weaker it will be harder. It is a benchmark, nothing more. The example you provide as a "strong table" isn't even APL3...14 char levels, 5 players, APL 2.8...This is the table that should find the adventure a fun challenge, not the table that should cakewalk it... But if you make it a challenge for, by definition, an above-average party, what do you think is going to happen to the average 2nd level party? You said "Modules should be balanced for appropriate level characters, not for whoever might play." Except you're doing the exact same thing...You're not balancing for all possibilities, you're balancing for the lowest levels that "might" play...Most tables have a mix of characters from APL-2 to APL+2, and the module should be built for that... No, I am balancing an APL 2 table for an APL 2 party! It's an EL5 encounter with all it's normal stats...In this case it has 40% of its hit points and It was either blind (dropping it's AC 3 points, giving it a 50% miss chance on every swing against the PCs, and preventing it from taking 5 foot steps) or it was attacking for non-lethal...In the latter case, no PC is going to die, in the former case, spread out and use missile weapons... The hit points alone drop the EL by 1 and the tactics by at least .5 (obviously there is no EL 3.5, but you get the idea)...A 1st level fighter will hit her either 20% of the time (if she can see) or 35% of the time (if she can't) and he's doing an average of around 7 points or so, which means the characters need to score 3-5 hits on her to bring her down...That's not overpowered... One thing, the hag's innate Blind Fight will half the misses due to being blind and doesn't cause her to lose her DEX bonus to AC vs. melee attacks. She only needs 1 or 2 hits to drop a 1st level character and with +13 to hit a hit is quite likely. Not to mention invisibility at will and the weakness attack. The invisibility will negate the tactic of standing back and using ranged weapons. The problem with dropping hp to make it more 'fair' is that the creature remains just as challenging and deadly, it just less resilient. That means success is much more random. If the party hits first, good; if not, things can turn ugly real quick. You want to design encounters that challenge them and can be overcome by skill not just good luck. It is simply not appropriate for an introductory module (which despite being written as APL2 is effectively APL1).
DuctShuiTengu 11-01-05, 09:27 PM	I have to agree. Given the tactics and what-not written into the mod, this doesn't sound too bad. That said, there have been some really sickening stuff written into mods at lower APLs than it should have been. a Buffed Ghast at APL 2 (okay, so per the book it's only a CR 3, but really: "I'm here, DC 15 Fort save everyone or take a -2 on everything." "I hit you, DC 15 Fort save (don't forget the -2 to your roll if you failed the first one) or be paralyzed for a few rounds while I continue to beat on you." "Oh, and that was a bite. Make another DC 15 Fort save or you're diseased too." come on. And then for the challenging encounter of the mod? A vampire spawn with its level drain beefed up to drain -2- levels instead of 1 and then backed up by a swarm of rats and 2 zombies. Or there's the APL 6 Mod I was in 8th level caster 1d6 con damage from poison per round - plus the usual grappling and damage from that - version of Evards Black Tentacles (arguably one of the most overpowered 4th level spells anyway) that gets dropped on the party as the first sign that the caster of said spell is even there. Come on, there's a reason that nothing that can cast spells that high - without the writer deciding to make it a SLA for them - is allowed in APL 6 mods to begin with. To then make it effectively unavoidable...