Key levels and the APL system [Archive] - Wizards Community

Key levels and the APL system [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
control freak
07-11-07, 11:14 AM have you ever noticed, how classes have "platform levels" or key levels

such as

a fighter 5 is little different then fighter 4 but a fighter 6 is a huge leap (2 feats, and another attack)

like a cleric level 7 is abou the same as a cleric 8 (a small number of spells difference)

so in terms of APL

a fighter 5 is just like a fighter 4 for perposes of making an APL (save like 9 hp)

just as a cleric 7 in APL 8 is about the same as a cleric 8 (unless they have a stupid PrC to buff it)

has any one else noiced that theres levels that are some what dead by comparison?
bitznarf
07-11-07, 11:17 AM That is just the way things are. Nothing unusual about it. Also note that the breakpoints can move if you are multiclassing. For example a Barb1/Fighter4 doesn't have such a dramatic breakpoint between character levels 4-6, it has been smoothed out with the addition of the Barb level.
rutrow424
07-11-07, 11:38 AM That's why it is very important to be aware of your specific PC build so that you know your relative power. That way, you can make sureyou and(most importantly) your fellow PCs are not under any illusions regarding what your PC can do. These sort of breakpoints in builds should come up when deciding (if possible) whether a group should play up or down APL. I would never play up with my spellsword build, or my TWF ranger, but would have little problem doing it with my cleric or dragon disciple.

Those breakpoints are especially harsh IMO for sorcerers and other spontaneous casters. An APL 4 table with a 3rd level sorcerer as its only arcane better be able to make up for the lack of 2nd level spells with other resources.
Lupo
07-11-07, 12:14 PM have you ever noticed, how classes have "platform levels" or key levels

such as

a fighter 5 is little different then fighter 4 but a fighter 6 is a huge leap (2 feats, and another attack)

like a cleric level 7 is abou the same as a cleric 8 (a small number of spells difference)

so in terms of APL

a fighter 5 is just like a fighter 4 for perposes of making an APL (save like 9 hp)

just as a cleric 7 in APL 8 is about the same as a cleric 8 (unless they have a stupid PrC to buff it)

has any one else noiced that theres levels that are some what dead by comparison?

another break notch for full BAB melee builds - beside full fighter's level 4 - is the first iterative attack at level 6.

archers get a leap when they get the "rapid shot" option, so actually one of the earliest in the game and have the money to buy a "bow for suitable strength damage" :) around AR 3 or 4. another leap is done if they get "arrow mind" running ;)

sorcerers below level 4 shouldn't play APL 4 unless there is another arcane caster.

rogue types gain a lot with the second sneak tier another break point is where they can get results on 20 to 25 with "taking 10" on some of their skills or do the "tumble" without rolling dice.

arcanists in general go up in effectiveness with their first area spells - "glitterdust", "fireball", "web" etc.

the exact "power leap levels" for clerics are harder to pin down, as they strongly depend on the cleric build and whether there is a prestige class involved.

i am not sure for paladins maybe when they get their mount.

when you check some of the "standard" builds around in LG you will notice that a lot of them leave their primary class just AFTER the power up notch :D guess why.

ciao

martin m.
kenobi65
07-11-07, 12:22 PM arcanists in general go up in effectiveness with their first area spells - "glitterdust", "fireball", "web" etc.

I think that 5th level is an important one for wizards, clerics, and druids:
- Wizards get a number of key spells, including Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Fly
- Clerics get some key buff / debuff spells (Bestow Curse, Magic Circle Against X, Prayer)
- Druids get wild shape

i am not sure for paladins maybe when they get their mount.

That's certainly true if you're going with a mounted combat build. For me, my paladin seemed to crank it up a notch at 6th level, with the addition of a feat and iterative attacks.
control freak
07-11-07, 12:43 PM in my personaly oppinion level 7 (or 8 for spont casters) is the key level for casters because 4th levels spells mean they probably never have to do anything else other then cast spells (up ward of 15 spells+ domains) with the ablity to cast spells every round you become alot stronger
_metz_
07-12-07, 05:52 AM this is how I see the power points in most of the base classes, and often where you can stop caster progression or switch top a PrC:

Cleric 7: - move from just buffing and healing, to divine power, freedom of movement, delay death, and RESTORATION. An extremely important point, where clerics really come to the fore. (Cleric 3 is great for crafting self buffing fighter types)

Druid 9: - Animal Growth is FUN

Wizard 5: Free feat, 3rd level spells, access to a lot of arcane prestige classes (6th level is good, but 5th is a definitive must for anything but a gish/arcane trickster type)

Monk 2: Feats, nuff said.

Barbarian 1: Extra Rage for the win

Swashbuckler 3: Grace and Insightful strike.

Fighter 4: Weapon spec for the win, rest of fighter is good, but for most decent melee types fighter 4 may be all that is needed.

Sorcerer /whenever you can get OUT of the darn class - Sorcerer is a TERRIBLE base class apart from arcane progression, so anything you can do to get out of it (with full progression, though one lost level in LG aint really an issue)

Rogue 3: Sneak attack, evasion (4th level is also useful: +1 BAB, Uncanny dodge, +1 ref save so is often useful.)

Paladin: Paladin 5 for the mount and the turning feats.

Ranger: Depends on fighting style, 6th level can work quite well. Ranger 1-3 is AWESOME for Deepwarden Dwarves.

Bard: 8th level is great for bard, really contingent on what you are after.

All of these really depend on WHAT you want to do with your character, but in most of these cases, you can't really go that wrong by taking them.

Hence its unsurprising most LG authors use these ratios to their advantage as well.

Keep in mind these 'important' levels are for 15 level builds.
copper_wyrmling
07-12-07, 09:43 AM Sorcerer /whenever you can get OUT of the darn class - Sorcerer is a TERRIBLE base class apart from arcane progression, so anything you can do to get out of it (with full progression, though one lost level in LG aint really an issue)

For "when to PrC out", sure. For "when a single-class sorcerer jumps in power" - probably at either L6 or L8, as your spell options take a big jump (and low-level slots start becoming "cast them whenever you need them"), and you get either a feat or a stat-bump. L12 is also nice (L6 spells, a stat-bump, a feat, +1 all saves, +1 BAB - most of this is true for all classes of course).

One lost caster level might not matter too much if it comes at the very end, although sacrificing a L5, L6 and L7 spell known is a very high cost, but halfway through the game a PrC would have to offer something extremely tempting to persuade me to lose a caster level. Playing a single-class sorcerer is actually pretty satisfying from about L6 on, since you have plenty of spells to cast in every combat, your metamagic options start to open up, and every level gives you either a new tier of spellcasting (thus opening up more spells + metamagic options) or a bunch of new spells known. Also, not burning any feats on PrC qualification tends to let you have some interesting tricks (although there's not much reason not to take Fatespinner).

I might say 7th level for bard (haste + bardsong, and one of the special bardic instruments lets you count as one level higher for inspire courage iirc), and L4 druid spells are also pretty cool, as is wildshape - 5, 7 and 8 all seem like nice druid breakpoints. (L5 = wildshape + L3 spells, L7 = L4 spells, L8 = wildshape Large iirc.)
solbergb
07-13-07, 10:03 AM Yeah.

Monk: Level 6, 11 and 12 are all "big" levels. Level 8 gets honorary mention for the tipping point where the flurry starts to matter (you get a UA die bump, and an iterative, and haste becomes more common, but enemies are bigger so grappling/tripping/stun fist works on a smaller set of enemies)

Sorcerer....every level after level 2 is a big deal, because you get more spells known. Level 6 though is likely the tipping point where you really have enough spell slots and options to get through most days with just your spells, without dipping into consumables.

Bard....level 7 is just plain huge - haste is that important. However level 8, 9 and 10 are also a big deal (inspire courage boost, inspire heroism and the yummy L4 bard spell list - dim door AND freedom of movement...)

Archers and melee - whenever BAB6 is. This is the tipping point where the single attack stops being the main thrust of the character. This is true even for TWF and archer types...losing half your damage for a +2 to hit isn't so bad in the baby levels. Losing 2/3 of your damage potential is.

Prepared spellcasters. Every odd level is a big deal. The even levels not so much, although they tend to be BAB or save breakpoints more often. With druids, level 8 is a tremendous shift in power - getting the size large wildshapes and the really dangerous animal companions like rhino, dire lion, etc.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
control freak 07-11-07, 11:14 AM	have you ever noticed, how classes have "platform levels" or key levels such as a fighter 5 is little different then fighter 4 but a fighter 6 is a huge leap (2 feats, and another attack) like a cleric level 7 is abou the same as a cleric 8 (a small number of spells difference) so in terms of APL a fighter 5 is just like a fighter 4 for perposes of making an APL (save like 9 hp) just as a cleric 7 in APL 8 is about the same as a cleric 8 (unless they have a stupid PrC to buff it) has any one else noiced that theres levels that are some what dead by comparison?
bitznarf 07-11-07, 11:17 AM	That is just the way things are. Nothing unusual about it. Also note that the breakpoints can move if you are multiclassing. For example a Barb1/Fighter4 doesn't have such a dramatic breakpoint between character levels 4-6, it has been smoothed out with the addition of the Barb level.
rutrow424 07-11-07, 11:38 AM	That's why it is very important to be aware of your specific PC build so that you know your relative power. That way, you can make sureyou and(most importantly) your fellow PCs are not under any illusions regarding what your PC can do. These sort of breakpoints in builds should come up when deciding (if possible) whether a group should play up or down APL. I would never play up with my spellsword build, or my TWF ranger, but would have little problem doing it with my cleric or dragon disciple. Those breakpoints are especially harsh IMO for sorcerers and other spontaneous casters. An APL 4 table with a 3rd level sorcerer as its only arcane better be able to make up for the lack of 2nd level spells with other resources.
Lupo 07-11-07, 12:14 PM	have you ever noticed, how classes have "platform levels" or key levels such as a fighter 5 is little different then fighter 4 but a fighter 6 is a huge leap (2 feats, and another attack) like a cleric level 7 is abou the same as a cleric 8 (a small number of spells difference) so in terms of APL a fighter 5 is just like a fighter 4 for perposes of making an APL (save like 9 hp) just as a cleric 7 in APL 8 is about the same as a cleric 8 (unless they have a stupid PrC to buff it) has any one else noiced that theres levels that are some what dead by comparison? another break notch for full BAB melee builds - beside full fighter's level 4 - is the first iterative attack at level 6. archers get a leap when they get the "rapid shot" option, so actually one of the earliest in the game and have the money to buy a "bow for suitable strength damage" :) around AR 3 or 4. another leap is done if they get "arrow mind" running ;) sorcerers below level 4 shouldn't play APL 4 unless there is another arcane caster. rogue types gain a lot with the second sneak tier another break point is where they can get results on 20 to 25 with "taking 10" on some of their skills or do the "tumble" without rolling dice. arcanists in general go up in effectiveness with their first area spells - "glitterdust", "fireball", "web" etc. the exact "power leap levels" for clerics are harder to pin down, as they strongly depend on the cleric build and whether there is a prestige class involved. i am not sure for paladins maybe when they get their mount. when you check some of the "standard" builds around in LG you will notice that a lot of them leave their primary class just AFTER the power up notch :D guess why. ciao martin m.
kenobi65 07-11-07, 12:22 PM	arcanists in general go up in effectiveness with their first area spells - "glitterdust", "fireball", "web" etc. I think that 5th level is an important one for wizards, clerics, and druids: - Wizards get a number of key spells, including Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Fly - Clerics get some key buff / debuff spells (Bestow Curse, Magic Circle Against X, Prayer) - Druids get wild shape i am not sure for paladins maybe when they get their mount. That's certainly true if you're going with a mounted combat build. For me, my paladin seemed to crank it up a notch at 6th level, with the addition of a feat and iterative attacks.
control freak 07-11-07, 12:43 PM	in my personaly oppinion level 7 (or 8 for spont casters) is the key level for casters because 4th levels spells mean they probably never have to do anything else other then cast spells (up ward of 15 spells+ domains) with the ablity to cast spells every round you become alot stronger
_metz_ 07-12-07, 05:52 AM	this is how I see the power points in most of the base classes, and often where you can stop caster progression or switch top a PrC: Cleric 7: - move from just buffing and healing, to divine power, freedom of movement, delay death, and RESTORATION. An extremely important point, where clerics really come to the fore. (Cleric 3 is great for crafting self buffing fighter types) Druid 9: - Animal Growth is FUN Wizard 5: Free feat, 3rd level spells, access to a lot of arcane prestige classes (6th level is good, but 5th is a definitive must for anything but a gish/arcane trickster type) Monk 2: Feats, nuff said. Barbarian 1: Extra Rage for the win Swashbuckler 3: Grace and Insightful strike. Fighter 4: Weapon spec for the win, rest of fighter is good, but for most decent melee types fighter 4 may be all that is needed. Sorcerer /whenever you can get OUT of the darn class - Sorcerer is a TERRIBLE base class apart from arcane progression, so anything you can do to get out of it (with full progression, though one lost level in LG aint really an issue) Rogue 3: Sneak attack, evasion (4th level is also useful: +1 BAB, Uncanny dodge, +1 ref save so is often useful.) Paladin: Paladin 5 for the mount and the turning feats. Ranger: Depends on fighting style, 6th level can work quite well. Ranger 1-3 is AWESOME for Deepwarden Dwarves. Bard: 8th level is great for bard, really contingent on what you are after. All of these really depend on WHAT you want to do with your character, but in most of these cases, you can't really go that wrong by taking them. Hence its unsurprising most LG authors use these ratios to their advantage as well. Keep in mind these 'important' levels are for 15 level builds.
copper_wyrmling 07-12-07, 09:43 AM	Sorcerer /whenever you can get OUT of the darn class - Sorcerer is a TERRIBLE base class apart from arcane progression, so anything you can do to get out of it (with full progression, though one lost level in LG aint really an issue) For "when to PrC out", sure. For "when a single-class sorcerer jumps in power" - probably at either L6 or L8, as your spell options take a big jump (and low-level slots start becoming "cast them whenever you need them"), and you get either a feat or a stat-bump. L12 is also nice (L6 spells, a stat-bump, a feat, +1 all saves, +1 BAB - most of this is true for all classes of course). One lost caster level might not matter too much if it comes at the very end, although sacrificing a L5, L6 and L7 spell known is a very high cost, but halfway through the game a PrC would have to offer something extremely tempting to persuade me to lose a caster level. Playing a single-class sorcerer is actually pretty satisfying from about L6 on, since you have plenty of spells to cast in every combat, your metamagic options start to open up, and every level gives you either a new tier of spellcasting (thus opening up more spells + metamagic options) or a bunch of new spells known. Also, not burning any feats on PrC qualification tends to let you have some interesting tricks (although there's not much reason not to take Fatespinner). I might say 7th level for bard (haste + bardsong, and one of the special bardic instruments lets you count as one level higher for inspire courage iirc), and L4 druid spells are also pretty cool, as is wildshape - 5, 7 and 8 all seem like nice druid breakpoints. (L5 = wildshape + L3 spells, L7 = L4 spells, L8 = wildshape Large iirc.)
solbergb 07-13-07, 10:03 AM	Yeah. Monk: Level 6, 11 and 12 are all "big" levels. Level 8 gets honorary mention for the tipping point where the flurry starts to matter (you get a UA die bump, and an iterative, and haste becomes more common, but enemies are bigger so grappling/tripping/stun fist works on a smaller set of enemies) Sorcerer....every level after level 2 is a big deal, because you get more spells known. Level 6 though is likely the tipping point where you really have enough spell slots and options to get through most days with just your spells, without dipping into consumables. Bard....level 7 is just plain huge - haste is that important. However level 8, 9 and 10 are also a big deal (inspire courage boost, inspire heroism and the yummy L4 bard spell list - dim door AND freedom of movement...) Archers and melee - whenever BAB6 is. This is the tipping point where the single attack stops being the main thrust of the character. This is true even for TWF and archer types...losing half your damage for a +2 to hit isn't so bad in the baby levels. Losing 2/3 of your damage potential is. Prepared spellcasters. Every odd level is a big deal. The even levels not so much, although they tend to be BAB or save breakpoints more often. With druids, level 8 is a tremendous shift in power - getting the size large wildshapes and the really dangerous animal companions like rhino, dire lion, etc.