Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Moryath 02-06-06, 10:20 AM	Hey hey - I just realized something. The Circle recently "fixed" the questions of meta-org access, because certain Triads had been giving out way too much good crap in their meta-orgs. As a result, item access via meta-orgs is now worthless. The new "mechanic" is that regional modules are supposed to have "If the player is a member of Meta-org X, they also get this" in the AR, and such modules are supposed to have a listing in the blurb encouraging players who are members of those meta-orgs to play them. But I just realized. My region has 24 meta-orgs, if you DON'T count the various subsections (wizard vs fighter portions, rankings within, spy sections, etc). If you count the splits, it's probably closer to 50. These were done for reasons back in the old system, to make access appropriate for people's classes. But now we get this "AR" SNIP. A single region only gets at most 9 AR's. Even at 2 meta-orgs per AR, you've left out most of the list. And you're also praying your level 12-13 character doesn't "happen" to be a member of the meta-org whose access got stuck on the APL 4-8 module. Way to go again, guys. You could have just made it a limited number of items/classes per meta-org or something. Instead, you gave us a mechanic that makes them a completely worthless setup and where people have to beg and plead their triads to make sure their meta-org doesn't just get left out.
JohnduBois 02-06-06, 10:38 AM	I'm just curious (both as the coordinator of a meta-org and someone who wholeheartedly supports the new guidelines) if you've considered that the Circle did precisely what they were intending to do? There was a large amount of (extremely justified) concern that meta-orgs were being used as a "mini-mart" in which people got their access one year and then ditch the meta-org when they have the items they want. Instead, meta-orgs have been restored to their original purpose, role-playing flavor. If you're more into item access than role-playing, don't join the meta-orgs.
Moryath 02-06-06, 10:52 AM	I'm just curious (both as the coordinator of a meta-org and someone who wholeheartedly supports the new guidelines) if you've considered that the Circle did precisely what they were intending to do? There was a large amount of (extremely justified) concern that meta-orgs were being used as a "mini-mart" in which people got their access one year and then ditch the meta-org when they have the items they want. Instead, meta-orgs have been restored to their original purpose, role-playing flavor. If you're more into item access than role-playing, don't join the meta-orgs. I've never seen that happen. All of ours, the access was quite reasonable, and you had to stay in because you had to be a member for 6 months to a year before you could advance to the next ranks. If your triad were one of those cheesy triads who handed out access to everything on a silver platter, then you're part of the problem because you caused this nonsense. Items for beginners where I live were appropriate for levels 2-6, mid levels 6-10, high levels 10+. If you didn't join early, your character had to wait a while to get in. It wasn't "hey I can join this cool meta-org and get item X." Plus, the rules for NPC spellcasting were another very real incentive, the best way to ensure NPC spellcasting was to be a member (and thus have a permanent influence point) and remain in good standing. What the Circle did was an overreaction and the access is now going to be either which meta-orgs are the pet project of the triad members, or which meta-org heads suck up the most, and that's not right.
Macabail 02-06-06, 11:42 AM	The new "mechanic" is that regional modules are supposed to have "If the player is a member of Meta-org X, they also get this" in the AR, and such modules are supposed to have a listing in the blurb encouraging players who are members of those meta-orgs to play them. That is nothing new. That was the intent of the rules a year or more ago when I left Triad (and not over that). Again, its nothing new. James Zwiers Living Arcanis Staff Origins 2006 "The Gathering" HQ Staff Former Living Greyhawk Duchy of Urnst Triad
Sieylianna 02-06-06, 12:11 PM	But now we get this "AR" BS. A single region only gets at most 9 AR's. Even at 2 meta-orgs per AR, you've left out most of the list. And you're also praying your level 12-13 character doesn't "happen" to be a member of the meta-org whose access got stuck on the APL 4-8 module. Each region has a maximum of 12 AR's per year (they are allowed three AR's with access for interactives). Ed
Moryath 02-06-06, 12:18 PM	Each region has a maximum of 12 AR's per year (they are allowed three AR's with access for interactives). Ed That's IF you have the time to drive out and the money to pay to enter each interactive. Some people don't. Some interactives only allow so many people to play. Trying to include the Access Interactives in this list is unfair.
Macabail 02-06-06, 01:19 PM	That's IF you have the time to drive out and the money to pay to enter each interactive. Some people don't. Some interactives only allow so many people to play. Trying to include the Access Interactives in this list is BS. How your region manages their interactives is something you should be taking up with your Triad. It is their choice how many people can play in an interactive, where it runs and how often it runs. It is not the circle's decision to only allow an interactive to run once, that is your triad's decision. James Zwiers Living Arcanis Staff Origins 2006 "The Gathering" HQ Staff
Mortepierre 02-06-06, 05:15 PM	Both sides have valid points but it all comes down (once again, I am tempted to say) to: "because (meta-)region X went overboard, all (meta-)regions have to pay the price". Now, perhaps the end result was something you had aimed at all along and, thus, something good came out of it, but it's still a bit sad. Meta-org in my region had very limited access as it was and, those few they granted, you had to both sweat and pay for. No "candy store" treatment here. Moreover, those access made sense (i.e. "holy" property if you belonged to church X). Back in those days, you could join a meta-org (not multiple ones, mind you), work your way up through the ranks, pay the price (gp/TU/xp/whatever..), all in the hope that one day you would get a chance to reap the reward. Now, it's "AR shopping we go" :raincloud
Moryath 02-06-06, 05:32 PM	Precisely. As for the idiot who thinks that Interactives are able to run at multiple conventions, I've yet to see ANY region try to do it, and I'm 100% sure the Circle would slap them down.
Namarus 02-06-06, 06:02 PM	Most of our meta-orgs have actually improved. They didn't really give anything besides skill bonuses. So I am happy with the current state of play.
smerwin29 02-06-06, 07:18 PM	As for the idiot who thinks that Interactives are able to run at multiple conventions, I've yet to see ANY region try to do it, and I'm 100% sure the Circle would slap them down. Can we have a discussion without reverting to name-calling? A region can certainly allow the same interactive to run at multiple conventions, and when I was on the Keoland Triad we planned to do exactly that. The plans fell through due to scheduling, not because of any interference or protest by the Circle.
Macabail 02-06-06, 07:21 PM	Precisely. As for the idiot who thinks that Interactives are able to run at multiple conventions, I've yet to see ANY region try to do it, and I'm 100% sure the Circle would slap them down. I know for a fact it has been done because I was Triad at the time. I also know for a fact that my circle member at the time had no issues with it and knew full well that we were running the interactive more than once. Check your facts before making baseless accusations. James Zwiers Living Arcanis Staff Origins 2006 "The Gathering" HQ Staff Ex-Triad, Duchy of Urnst, Living Greyhawk
zigspatty 02-06-06, 07:52 PM	Precisely. As for the idiot who thinks that Interactives are able to run at multiple conventions, I've yet to see ANY region try to do it, and I'm 100% sure the Circle would slap them down. The interactive at Weekend in PoU ran in 3 locations in Florida (MIami, Orlando, Tallahassee) for the past 3 years. I'm pretty certain that it was done with the Circle's blessing too. The Interactive Messages Boards ran in 4 different locations in Dec 2004. So it's not so rare as you seem to think. Patty
ezreal2001 02-06-06, 08:00 PM	Precisely. As for the idiot who thinks that Interactives are able to run at multiple conventions, I've yet to see ANY region try to do it, and I'm 100% sure the Circle would slap them down. Well you're wrong then. Last year a Perrenland interactive was run at two different cons (Big Weekend and SRDU) Can't speak for the circle guy who was visiting - but I can't remember anyone mentioning any complaints from him
TimRat 02-06-06, 08:26 PM	What happened with the meta-orgs is exactly what we planned with them. Meta-orgs got out of control from their original plan when LG was formed which was just to give roleplaying flavor to add to the campaign. thats all orgs were orginally designed for. then for some reason they morphed into basically 'mini-marts' for items and strayed significantly away from what their original goal was. also not sure what region you are in but orgs most certainly still have access to limited prestige classes/feats and all items cept for magic ones. also there is no limit to how many orgs authors can include in an adventure. so an adventure could have like 5 orgs getting different types of access in it not just 2. what regions can do is up to them. i'm very open and encouraging to my regions to try and get the roleplaying back into them and i think they have.
JamesMaissen 02-07-06, 01:10 AM	What happened with the meta-orgs is exactly what we planned with them. Meta-orgs got out of control from their original plan when LG was formed which was just to give roleplaying flavor to add to the campaign. thats all orgs were orginally designed for. then for some reason they morphed into basically 'mini-marts' for items and strayed significantly away from what their original goal was. also not sure what region you are in but orgs most certainly still have access to limited prestige classes/feats and all items cept for magic ones. also there is no limit to how many orgs authors can include in an adventure. so an adventure could have like 5 orgs getting different types of access in it not just 2. what regions can do is up to them. i'm very open and encouraging to my regions to try and get the roleplaying back into them and i think they have. Personally I don't think changing Metaorgs from giving access to magic item to giving access to wierd mundane items is going to change this mentality. Metaorgs should be a place to help flesh out one's character with institutions that extend beyond just one's own character. Thus your character can be a constable, or part of a thieves' guild or what have you. This should impact how you play certain modules.. not what you can buy or make your character into mechanics-wise. I think inclusion into regional modules is a grand idea. I, however, think it will mainly degenerate into 'members get this' on the AR, instead of how the module will play out storywise. My personal belief is that 'limited' should be abolished entirely. Let people take what they want in terms of classes, feats, spells and the like. If it's not a problem for the campaign for them to be in it (ie they are not restricted) then anyone that wants it should be able to. Players are the exceptions after all, not the rule. If a character has spell XYZ and class B, the flavor of the region they are played in is neither better nor worse for it. I mean if we want to take that view then let's not allow people to play Elves in the PoU, Druids (or Chaotic aligned PCs) in the Gran March, nonBaklunish humans in Ket, Paladins in the BK, etc. But that's NOT the right view. If one plays an elf in the PoU they get treated to the 'dwarven experience' much more so for their being an elf (and even worse than said elf would get in Ket). Likewise good luck to the Paladin in the BK. But none of that is taking away from the flavor. If anything it's giving avenues for the flavor to splatter all over the other characters at the table they play at (okay maybe the Paladin in the BK is what is *being* splattered). Let people play what they want as they want. If you make it so that in order to get what they want to play they have to go through hoops to do so, you shouldn't turn around and scold them for such contortions. If you want metaorgs to be roleplaying venues instead of sources for access, then stop giving access through them. -James
Itsa_Trika 02-07-06, 10:51 PM	Precisely. As for the idiot who thinks that Interactives are able to run at multiple conventions, I've yet to see ANY region try to do it, and I'm 100% sure the Circle would slap them down. Both Verbobonc and Dyvers have had interactives run at multiple locations.
RanielK 02-08-06, 04:25 AM	It has always amused me that we've had to spend precious gold and TU's to roleplay. Now I understand trading such resources for things like access, bonuses to skills, and the ability to look the judge in the eye and back up your rp with a LG legal document. But trading TU's for roleplaying never made sense to me. One of my characters is a noble from Celene. Since he has abandoned his family and left Celene against the Queen's orders (who has told all her subjects Celene will not get involved outside her borders), he has exactly 0 benefit from his title (an extremely and unbelieveably minor one to be sure). It has come up that his disdain for nobles has caused him some in game troubles. He gave up his title and all that sittin' around on his fat behind (not that elves really get fat), so why should he care that someone half his age is lord high muckity muck? Now do I have a document to back this up and make it real (i.e. force said lord high muckity muck to avoid a diplomatic incident by having me hanged just cause he's lord high muckity muck and I didnt lick his boots)? Nope, because there is no feat that applies (Landless Noble isn't for Celenits who abondon their titles) or metaorg doc (as Celene isn't a player region). But by God, I've definitely got roleplay there. Another character is the youngest priest of Pelor in well over 30 years. He's a prodigy at healing. He's something of a buzz in his home temple. Am I a member of the appropriate metaorg? No, cause right now I don't live in the right state and haven't been keeping up on their stuff (I've got 2 time zones betwixt me and them, wrong coast and all). Do I get any benefit out of starting him at the youngest possible age a human can start at, picking skills and feats to back up my claim of being damn good at healing? Not beyond the actual in game effects. I have exactly 0 metagame credibility, but I've got roleplay. As long as a judge lets me go with my roleplay and doesn't shut me down because I don't have a copy of a nonexistant metaorg (Celene) or haven't spent the TUs on an existant one (cause I'm not in region) and I'm not expecting anything more than, oh being taken seriously, (baring that said Celenite is a mage with soooo many orb spells and the necessary archer feats and Greater Invis* to make it hurt if you really want to push it), then why is it necesary to spend TUs/gp to get taken seriously/roleplay? Miles *Lets not even discuss the fact he's a wild mage. Oh yeah he's the chief researcher of wild magic for the Istari, one of the Phostaldarn tribes of elves that live in the Phostwood woods on the border with the Pale. Until recently, that was a defunct metaorg. You want to say your from the Phostwood tribes? Go ahead. Now its being resurrected. So he'll have to spend TU's/gp if I want him to receive any benefit beyond just saying he belongs.
Mortepierre 02-08-06, 05:03 AM	All I'll say is :clap: Note that, technically speaking, you could have just taken 2 ranks in the appropriate Knowledge - local skill (Ulek in your case) and you would have had access to the Landless Nobility feat. Minor detail but it shows that there usually is a way to back up your claim if you really want to ;)
paigeoliver 02-08-06, 05:54 AM	Ah, that reminds me of my Dwarf from Hommlet. When I found out Hommlet was in Verbobonc I made a Verbobonc dwarf who lived in Hommlet. I had only played him twice and then I went to a convention in Illinois, which is Verbobonc territory. I got picked up to play an extra intro module because my slot was over earlier than expected. That Hommlet dwarf was the only 1st level character I had, so I pulled him out, and BOOM, wouldn't you know it, the Intro Mod was set in Hommlet. It worked out great. I let everyone at the table know that my dwarf already lived there (it was already on his character sheet), and so the GM had all the NPCs already know me and such. It worked out great. All with no metaorg, and no town project. I had the same dwarf join Clan Rockhall that day. Mostly just because. He still lives in Hommlet. Couldn't seem to find Elmo anywhere though. :D
vvincent 02-08-06, 04:17 PM	Sounds like you had a great experience - and managed to prove a point at the same time: namely that you don't need metaorgs or a Town Project to roleplay. You can create a perfectly fine character that has no affiliation to a regional organization or a PC-town and still have fun. You as a player aren't required to join a metaorg, or become a part of a Town Project. However, I think you'll find that becoming a part of such things is like joining a fraternity or a brotherhood. They are means for facilitating role-playing opportunities - opportunities you can't have in a home campaign. Vernon L. Vincent Verbobonc triad Ah, that reminds me of my Dwarf from Hommlet. When I found out Hommlet was in Verbobonc I made a Verbobonc dwarf who lived in Hommlet. I had only played him twice and then I went to a convention in Illinois, which is Verbobonc territory. I got picked up to play an extra intro module because my slot was over earlier than expected. That Hommlet dwarf was the only 1st level character I had, so I pulled him out, and BOOM, wouldn't you know it, the Intro Mod was set in Hommlet. It worked out great. I let everyone at the table know that my dwarf already lived there (it was already on his character sheet), and so the GM had all the NPCs already know me and such. It worked out great. All with no metaorg, and no town project. I had the same dwarf join Clan Rockhall that day. Mostly just because. He still lives in Hommlet. Couldn't seem to find Elmo anywhere though. :D
RanielK 02-08-06, 04:33 PM	Sounds like you had a great experience - and managed to prove a point at the same time: namely that you don't need metaorgs or a Town Project to roleplay. You can create a perfectly fine character that has no affiliation to a regional organization or a PC-town and still have fun. You as a player aren't required to join a metaorg, or become a part of a Town Project. However, I think you'll find that becoming a part of such things is like joining a fraternity or a brotherhood. They are means for facilitating role-playing opportunities - opportunities you can't have in a home campaign. Vernon L. Vincent Verbobonc triad Yeah, I don't know about him, but I'm looking forward to retiring in Swan. Open a nice, peaceful mage school. Maybe teach rogues how to blow stuff up thanks to the UMD skill. Get that sculpter dude to make a statue of me to put out on my front yard next to the jockey. Ah domesticity. For now, banging around the Phostwood is doing it for me. But one day. . . ;) Miles PS now if I can only figure out whether to buy the t-shirt or the breath mints from the town store PPS Seriously, I like the fact the town projects are backed up by yahoo groups for IC discussions. Nice touch
Jesse Heinig 02-08-06, 06:48 PM	I recall a tale regarding a fellow who played an RPGA event while on vacation in Europe. He returned with an AR that explicitly only gave accesses to characters who were members of particular meta-orgs from the region in which he played. In short, the entire "access" section of the AR was useless to him, because every single access required some sort of meta-org membership. I don't think I'd like being placed into the position of having characters forced to join meta-orgs just because of the artificiality of being unable to gain any accesses otherwise.
ithardin 02-08-06, 08:51 PM	Verbobonc has some really interesting things going on. They have tailored the meta-orgs to really enhance the Roleplay of the current storyline and made it so that you can't just "pick and choose" to get item access. TU expenditure has gone up to reflect the dedication required to belong to a meta-org, as it should be. My attitude about meta-orgs is the same as my attitude about prestige classes...if you have 3 or 4 of them how "prestigious" does that make any of them? If there are 100 PCs running around with the same one, how "prestigious" is that? "I'm a weapons master!" "Oh yeah, me too...and so are these other two guys." And to continue to toot the Verbobonc horn, if you get a chance to play the new storyline...do it. It has been awesome and we are only two intro mods and a regional mod into it!
paigeoliver 02-08-06, 09:18 PM	I am mostly liking the new Verbie storyline, the only bad thing I can say about it has nothing to do with the actual storyline so much as it has to do with bad luck. I have two Verbobonc characters. One was going to be my REAL Verbobonc character, while the other one was just a backup character that I didn't even actually intend to play much at all. But, the way things went I had to play my backup Verbobonc character in Ver6-01 (backup character was a cleric, and there were no clerics at the table). Because of a certain favor/reward on that module it is now in my best interest to play that one in Verbobonc for the rest of the year, even though that wasn't the character I was wanting to build up right now.
MaxDog 02-09-06, 04:46 PM	I am mostly liking the new Verbie storyline, the only bad thing I can say about it has nothing to do with the actual storyline so much as it has to do with bad luck. I have two Verbobonc characters. One was going to be my REAL Verbobonc character, while the other one was just a backup character that I didn't even actually intend to play much at all. But, the way things went I had to play my backup Verbobonc character in Ver6-01 (backup character was a cleric, and there were no clerics at the table). Because of a certain favor/reward on that module it is now in my best interest to play that one in Verbobonc for the rest of the year, even though that wasn't the character I was wanting to build up right now. I feel for ya brother! The new focus on lower-level play, the new story lines, the new MO docs -- all of it has conspired to make choosing which of my four characters to play in Verby REALLY hard. But I count myself lucky that my "tough" choices are between so many options that I enjoy :) Kudos for Verbobonc's new Meta-org docs -- In the last month I've done (and seen) more role-playing on-line and at the table than in the previous year. Even people who haven't joined MO's are having fun, because people who have bring extra flavor, influence and motives to the table. It's gonna be a great year in Verbobonc. Cold -- but great. leh
TimRat 02-10-06, 10:39 AM	Thats one thing that I and my other colleagues have to watch out for on ARs. to make sure that all the item access isn't relegated to just those in orgs. a mix is the best way to go and i always am sure to check that this is the case as well as encourage the triads to make sure there is enough 'goodies' in the ARs so that the risk is worth the reward. sometimes its hard though.
ithardin 02-10-06, 02:33 PM	Its just fun to sit at a table where there are: 2 Wood elves who belong to the Gnarley Clans (and dislike the Elven Enclave city elves of Verbobonc City); 2 City elves who belong to the Elven Enclave; and 2 1/2 elves, one od which is a Trithereon worshipper in Verbobonc (where the word of the Cudgel is law) Larry sure had fun listening to all that. Alot of what happened was enhanced by the Meta-orgs, and I see them further enhancing our year 6 storyline and for years to come. I mean overnight the number of elves moving to Ketter's Heart in our town project has almos doubled. Much of this is because of the meta-orgs.
solbergb 02-10-06, 04:38 PM	I dunno. I actually really like the skill bonuses of the new orgs. Also...yeah I had tons of access in the old orgs, but how much could I actually use? Almost none, I never had the cash. I think I bought 4 total items across all my chars from an org, I think my wife crafted a couple. Whereas every single character I have, metaorg or not, always has plenty to spend his cash on just from his AR favors, core, regional and metaregional access. Now with the new orgs and MUNDANE item access (the stuff that never seems to make it on the right AR)...nearly every character is loading up on useful, cheap mundane equipment, and those that got skill bonuses before are getting even larger and broader skill bonuses now. Yes, I actually would like a +4 to several Kn or social skills than access to a circlet of persuasion or headband of intellect +4.
Paul H 02-10-06, 07:36 PM	Yes, I actually would like a +4 to several Kn or social skills than access to a circlet of persuasion or headband of intellect +4. Hmmm. Wish I had the money - either would be more useful to me, than just skills. (Main Character Clr/Warmage). Cheers Paul H
ithardin 02-11-06, 11:35 AM	Yes, but with the new skill bonus my Armor Check Penalty just evaporated on swim, jump, etc...which I found awfully useful during Winter War.
solbergb 02-13-06, 02:57 PM	Hmmm. Wish I had the money - either would be more useful to me, than just skills. (Main Character Clr/Warmage). Cheers Paul H But do you have the cash to actually BUY them? (and buy them when playing in your metaregion, or you don't have access anyway). That's the thing . The headband+4 is a 16k item, which is a luxury for a cleric/warmage until probably around level 12...where you'll likely have access anyway. The circlet is more affordable but competes with all the +2 attribute items a warmage/cleric might want (int, cha, con, dex, resistance) so again, probably level 10ish...there is opportunity cost to stuff that costs cash. Or (especially on secondary characters) spend 4TU and get +4 to several skills you use for the rest of the year? Plus heck, access to useful mundane stuff too, and lifestyle costs paid perhaps. I know which I prefer. I prefer stuff I can actually use, from level 1 to level 16.
boojumbunn 02-16-06, 06:33 PM	When Living Greyhawk had first gotten started I had always pictured Meta-Orgs as roleplaying opporunities for the players, not for the goodies or the status in modules. It was a chance to belong to a group who enhanced your roleplaying experience. The members of the Meta-Org would keep in touch outside of the game itself, get together at conventions, play characters together who know each other. They could possibly even begin having an effect on the game world itself by purchasing some group land that fits with the goals of their order. Example: Blue Wind Mage Guild Purpose: Fraternal organization of mages providing shelter, guidance, and protection to up and coming mages. Property: Blue Wind Mage GuildHouse in the outskirts of WinterShiven. A large manor house with kitchens. Most of the house is given over to rooms for guild members in attendance. A mainhall serves duty as both dining hall and meeting hall. Several outbuildings have been constructed as workrooms that members may use (must be scheduled at least 1 week in advance) Charter: As it is the responsibility of experienced mages to guide those of less experience in the proper use of arcane knowledge the Blue Wind Mage Guild is formed to provide such guidance. The GuildHouse is built as a central repository of wisdom and arcane knowledge gathered by it's members, to be properly distilled and disseminated to members of less experience. Experience: Life at the guild hall is pleasent, including good meals and comfortable surroundings. Members in good standing may take part in the cameraderie of high tea and the occasional diginified party. Application Standards: I'm not going to go into these right now. Once the Meta-Org was set up, members of the Blue Winds Mage Guild would arrange to go on adventures together, participage in various events, and roleplay their little hearts out. It has nothing to do with an IN GAME benefit (other than to give an insight into another character you are adventuring with) but it has everything to do with roleplaying for those who want more than the episodic nature of the RPGA games. It's a chance for some continuity and extended roleplaying other than that which takes place during the games themselves. So personally, I don't mind the Triads removing access from the Meta-Orgs. I just wish that we, the players, were taking better advantage of them. Things I would like to see: Meta-Org Forums: A place to get together with other members of your forum. It would include a calender, a section for arranging to meet others at events, getting together for dinner, and an area for roleplaying with your fellow org members. Meta-Org Roster: Voluntary contact information of members so that they can locate each other. Anyway, as long as people are saying what they would like to see in Meta-Orgs.. thats what I'd like to see. boojum