Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Swiftbrook 01-08-07, 07:28 PM	I just completed a very enjoyable module set in and around the City of Greyhawk. Now, from time to time something that an author writes or used just bugs me to no end. This time it's the laws in the City of Greyhawk. Basically, when you enter the city you must: Scabard swords, axes and the like Two-handed weapons, bows and crossbows are not allowed Many spells are a no-no, but no real game effect Animal & Animal Companions bigger than small are allowed, but cost you gold Now you must understand, my character is a Ranger specializing in archery. I've put most of my feats and almost all my gold into my bow. My one deviatation, my animal companion. So, yes, maybe I'm a poor player/plan-ahead guy. I don't have a good backup weapon. So, when combat comes inside the City, I'm without my main weapon. Note: the DM ruled that the dumb city watch was smart enough to know that bows can be hidden in quivers, so my Quiver of Ehlonna was confiscated as well. To add insult to injury, I have two favors of the Greyhawk City Watch. It seems that I sould be in good graces to get a pass on my bow and dog, but no. Also, how can one purchase restricted weapons or have them repaired or magically 'upgraded', if they can't be brought into the city. With the new Greyhawk story arc coming out, I would hope that there are some ways to mitigate these laws. Maybe favors on ARs stating that the PC has a pass to carry a restricted weapon, but still "sheathed". Maybe, dipomacy or bluff checks to get by the city gate. Maybe a Dispell Confusion that state if you have the Greyhawk City Watch favor, you can carry your restricted weapon. I don't know, something. Do you get your restricted weapons past the guards? If so, how? -Swiftbrook
clannagh 01-08-07, 07:49 PM	I just completed a very enjoyable module set in and around the City of Greyhawk. Now, from time to time something that an author writes or used just bugs me to no end. This time it's the laws in the City of Greyhawk. Basically, when you enter the city you must: Scabard swords, axes and the like Two-handed weapons, bows and crossbows are not allowed Many spells are a no-no, but no real game effect Animal & Animal Companions bigger than small are allowed, but cost you gold Now you must understand, my character is a Ranger specializing in archery. I've put most of my feats and almost all my gold into my bow. My one deviatation, my animal companion. So, yes, maybe I'm a poor player/plan-ahead guy. I don't have a good backup weapon. So, when combat comes inside the City, I'm without my main weapon. Note: the DM ruled that the dumb city watch was smart enough to know that bows can be hidden in quivers, so my Quiver of Ehlonna was confiscated as well. To add insult to injury, I have two favors of the Greyhawk City Watch. It seems that I sould be in good graces to get a pass on my bow and dog, but no. Also, how can one purchase restricted weapons or have them repaired or magically 'upgraded', if they can't be brought into the city. With the new Greyhawk story arc coming out, I would hope that there are some ways to mitigate these laws. Maybe favors on ARs stating that the PC has a pass to carry a restricted weapon, but still "sheathed". Maybe, dipomacy or bluff checks to get by the city gate. Maybe a Dispell Confusion that state if you have the Greyhawk City Watch favor, you can carry your restricted weapon. I don't know, something. Do you get your restricted weapons past the guards? If so, how? -Swiftbrook My archer resorts to tripping people with her Bolas in that situation .. ...
budleiser 01-08-07, 08:00 PM	I just completed a very enjoyable module set in and around the City of Greyhawk. Now, from time to time something that an author writes or used just bugs me to no end. This time it's the laws in the City of Greyhawk. Basically, when you enter the city you must: Scabard swords, axes and the like Two-handed weapons, bows and crossbows are not allowed Many spells are a no-no, but no real game effect Animal & Animal Companions bigger than small are allowed, but cost you gold Now you must understand, my character is a Ranger specializing in archery. I've put most of my feats and almost all my gold into my bow. My one deviatation, my animal companion. So, yes, maybe I'm a poor player/plan-ahead guy. I don't have a good backup weapon. So, when combat comes inside the City, I'm without my main weapon. Note: the DM ruled that the dumb city watch was smart enough to know that bows can be hidden in quivers, so my Quiver of Ehlonna was confiscated as well. To add insult to injury, I have two favors of the Greyhawk City Watch. It seems that I sould be in good graces to get a pass on my bow and dog, but no. Also, how can one purchase restricted weapons or have them repaired or magically 'upgraded', if they can't be brought into the city. With the new Greyhawk story arc coming out, I would hope that there are some ways to mitigate these laws. Maybe favors on ARs stating that the PC has a pass to carry a restricted weapon, but still "sheathed". Maybe, dipomacy or bluff checks to get by the city gate. Maybe a Dispell Confusion that state if you have the Greyhawk City Watch favor, you can carry your restricted weapon. I don't know, something. Do you get your restricted weapons past the guards? If so, how? -Swiftbrook If thats the same mod: Lol, we knocked on the magistrates door and tried to diplomacy with him to give us a writ allowing us weapons into the city. We talked to the sheriff/constable to get it. We tried to bribe the guards. We tried to diplomacy the guards. I suggested we build this giant wooden badger... I think an hour later we actually started playing the mod. Without our weapons.
pedr 01-08-07, 08:10 PM	These restrictions were, apparently, in the City of Greyhawk boxed set which was supposed to be part of the original source-material for the campaign. It was, um, 'forgotten' by earlier Circle members, and seems to have recently been 'remembered'. I believe that every module set in Greyhawk City from now on will have these restrictions. Personally, I like them. I sometimes wonder about the verisimilitude of seeing what would look like knights in armour wandering around all these towns and cities we visit. It struck me particularly in 'Here Comes the Sun' when two 'tin cans' and a centaur knocked on the widow's door. I did stop to wonder how she would really have reacted!
Swiftbrook 01-08-07, 09:15 PM	From Greyhawk: Folk, Feuds, and Factions p. 13: "It is legal to wear any armor about town, but weapons are another matter. The following objects may be carried freely: dagger, dart, sling, staff, staff sling, club, and knife. While it is permitted for people to carry other weapons, they may only do so legally if they obtain a license from the office of the Captian-General of the Watch (in the Citadel). Licenses costs vary from 5 gp (long sword, broad sword) to 20 gp (two-handed broad sword), and the clerks will make careful notes about PCs and their weapons, especially paying heed to distinguishing characteristics which might enable PCs to be tracked down if they are involved in acts of violence. Licenses are not given for weapons larger thatn a two-handed sword, so that halberds, pikes, and the like may not be legally carried in teh streets of the city." No mention of bows, crossbows, etc. Also, not a word about animals. FYI, -Swiftbrook
Japangirl 01-08-07, 10:18 PM	And to add insult to injury for the ranger archers . . . My halfling rogue jingles into town wearing a knife vest (10 daggers), two wrist sheaths (two daggers), two boot sheaths (two daggers), two normal belt sheaths (two daggers), two saps, and another knife vest filled with daggers in the Handy Haversack. That makes 16 daggers visible, three of them magical, and 10 hidden in the extradimensional space. My Invisible Blade always wonders what the guards think of the hysterical giggles as she walks in.
LGMoses 01-08-07, 11:25 PM	These restrictions were, apparently, in the City of Greyhawk boxed set which was supposed to be part of the original source-material for the campaign. It was, um, 'forgotten' by earlier Circle members, and seems to have recently been 'remembered'. I believe that every module set in Greyhawk City from now on will have these restrictions. Personally, I like them. I sometimes wonder about the verisimilitude of seeing what would look like knights in armour wandering around all these towns and cities we visit. It struck me particularly in 'Here Comes the Sun' when two 'tin cans' and a centaur knocked on the widow's door. I did stop to wonder how she would really have reacted! yeah, the ones I'm running have it.
Samwise 01-09-07, 12:31 AM	All reach weapons, including the spiked chain, constitute the main body of "bigger than" a greatsword. I think we (well me anyway) can safely say that a longbow is bigger than a greatsword. Crossbows come along for the ride, as the city doesn't really need random snipers. Creatures of varying sorts other than basic domestic animals are included under "Importation of controlled items" or "Possessing unlicensed monster" in the first column of page 13 FFF. Remember, that was back in 1st ed days when druids didn't get free animal companions. Obviously the laws must adapt a bit to account for them. And yes, pedr has it spot on. I've done my checking, rememebered there were actual, specific laws that named weapons, and brought them back out instead of relying on random selections, if any, depending on the author. Yes, this puts a severe crimp on archers, spiked chain dudes, and pole arm users, as well as druids who like any animal except a riding dog. Is there some way around it? Yes and no. Cityscape has a feat that gets you around such laws, but it requires another feat, Favored (by an organization) first. Whether that will appear or not remains to be seen. Whether people want to burn two feats for it also remains to be seen. Whether other exemptions will be granted is likewise undetermined. In general, a simple favor of the City Watch will not get you an exemption. If you use such a weapon to commit murder, they will want to know who let you in with it. Sam Weiss Core Reviewer
catsclaw 01-09-07, 01:48 AM	Are there apparently no weapon shops in Greyhawk? Or is this one of those deals where you can buy the weapons, but you can't leave the store with it, and they'll mail it to the address of your choosing?
CrystalBlue 01-09-07, 08:10 AM	This is utterly ubsurd. Greyhawk, for six years, has never had these kind of laws and regulations. And now that they do? Well, if any of my characters plays a core that requires most of it to be in the city, I'll walk out of the mod. I'll appologise to the rest of the table, take my blank AR, and leave. Because it's not fair in any sense of the word. It would have been fair if they gave some rational for why they're suddenly changing the rules or if these had been rule all along. But now we have to follow laws that none of our characters remember? I don't think so. That's just plain unfair and wrong.
gomeztoo 01-09-07, 09:01 AM	It struck me particularly in 'Here Comes the Sun' when two 'tin cans' and a centaur knocked on the widow's door. I did stop to wonder how she would really have reacted! Given the heat, there shouldn't have been any tin cans on the street... I didn't think to include reactions vs weird/threatening looking PCs, but imo that is something a DM should take care of.
budleiser 01-09-07, 09:17 AM	This is utterly ubsurd. Greyhawk, for six years, has never had these kind of laws and regulations. And now that they do? Well, if any of my characters plays a core that requires most of it to be in the city, I'll walk out of the mod. I'll appologise to the rest of the table, take my blank AR, and leave. Because it's not fair in any sense of the word. It would have been fair if they gave some rational for why they're suddenly changing the rules or if these had been rule all along. But now we have to follow laws that none of our characters remember? I don't think so. That's just plain unfair and wrong. LOL. Or you could just go along with the mod and see what happens instead of getting fussy over it. I don't want to spoil things, but we eventually did get to use our weapons. Given the heat, there shouldn't have been any tin cans on the street... I didn't think to include reactions vs weird/threatening looking PCs, but imo that is something a DM should take care of. Dear god no. If you expect something like that to happen it should be written in the mod. DM's are under enough pressure to run the mod as written and stop making up BS. It's not like a background on each NPC is given, how is a DM supposed to even guess wether or not that is a scary scene. Maybe tin cans and centaurs appear at her door every day. As soon as children and cats go missing they run to find us tin cans and centaurs instead of their city watch so why would they freak out just by seeing us?
LachlarlanIII 01-09-07, 10:13 AM	Given the heat, there shouldn't have been any tin cans on the street... I didn't think to include reactions vs weird/threatening looking PCs, but imo that is something a DM should take care of. Most of our tin cans had Endure Elements up. Endure Elements takes care of the problem.
CrystalBlue 01-09-07, 10:43 AM	I'm not being fussy. I'm being consistant. It's not that I'm opposed to keeping my weapons out of sight. And I've even bought non-leathal alternatives when I'm in a city that doesn't allow for killing people. That's not my point. My point is that we have ALWAYS been able to use weapons of any sort in the city of Greyhawk. And we've always been able to cast spells and have animal companions. As long as we don't harm others or cause property damage. But all of a sudden, there's new laws. I would think this is very significant and not something that should be tacked on this year. If we didn't have it before, we shouldn't have it now without due ingame explination.
pedr 01-09-07, 10:49 AM	Well, the in-game explanation must be something along the lines of ... "we got lax and forgot to rigorously enforce the rules for a while", rather than "here's some new laws." The laws have always been part of the campaign, they just didn't manage to make their way into the modules. Or at least that's my understanding.
LachlarlanIII 01-09-07, 10:49 AM	Several Core mods last year included the new Greyhawk City laws. So they are hardly being 'tacked' on this year.
Simpi 01-09-07, 10:56 AM	I'm not being fussy. I'm being consistant. It's not that I'm opposed to keeping my weapons out of sight. And I've even bought non-leathal alternatives when I'm in a city that doesn't allow for killing people. That's not my point. My point is that we have ALWAYS been able to use weapons of any sort in the city of Greyhawk. And we've always been able to cast spells and have animal companions. As long as we don't harm others or cause property damage. But all of a sudden, there's new laws. I would think this is very significant and not something that should be tacked on this year. If we didn't have it before, we shouldn't have it now without due ingame explination. Would it make you better if some core module would have a big poster hanging in random tavern wall (outside Greyhawk that is) saying: "Oi! From now on, following weapons (list below) are not allowed into city of Greyhawk. Some adventurers have caused trouble recently and we don't like it." Nerof Gasgal, Lord Mayor of Greyhawk. I am in favor of anything that follows the old spirit of Greyhawk and back in Y2 & 3 I was actually wondering why they allowed me into the city with my weapons when I knew there were laws about it. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad P.S: Yes, you are being a fussy about it.
gomeztoo 01-09-07, 11:02 AM	Dear god no. If you expect something like that to happen it should be written in the mod. You should only include it if it seriously affects the scenario. A NPC commoner that is roleplayed as being scared or even mistrusting towards weird-looking PCs is a DM's responsibility. I already include a lot of info on NPCs - I don't see a need to add stuff like "if a PC is an asherati/centaur/half dragon, roleplay Commoner X as being apprehensively." DM's have to be able to fill in the gaps. And I have actually been told that I have to leave MORE up to the DM. Gomez
Iswald 01-09-07, 11:52 AM	Scabard swords, axes and the like Two-handed weapons, bows and crossbows are not allowed Many spells are a no-no, but no real game effect Animal & Animal Companions bigger than small are allowed, but cost you gold From what I remember, our party had to give up all visible weapons except for staves and daggers. Spellcasters were limited in their spell selection. Wolves and other dangerous animal companions had to be 'stabled' or left outside the city. If your companion was a horse, it would have been fine.
Mommy was an Orc 01-09-07, 12:39 PM	All reach weapons, including the spiked chain, constitute the main body of "bigger than" a greatsword. I think we (well me anyway) can safely say that a longbow is bigger than a greatsword. Actually, they're both 6' long in PHB. The issue is that a Short Bow, which is roughly about as dangerous as a Long Bow, is clearly smaller. And if you're a small character, a small Longbow is smaller than a medium Great Sword. I think my problem with the Greyhawk laws is that I've got one character who has about 3 different favors of the City Guard. She's has access and qualifies for joining some paramilitary Greyhawk police force. At some point, such a character should be trusted to walk through the streets with an 'illegal' weapon on a permanent basis, whether by joining the police force or by paying some sort of fee - at least, until she does something stupid.
CrystalBlue 01-09-07, 01:00 PM	No...I'm really NOT being fussy. That's great if Greyhawk originally had laws against weapons. I'm telling you that that's not my point. >.< All of a sudden, my character finds out that he has to secure all of his weapons because they just became illegal. No matter that our characters have time-and-again saved this city and it's other regions from total annhilation and have uncovered many plots of vampires and evil things living inside the city walls. They don't want law-abiding, LG clerics of Heironeous carrying their swords in public to save innocent lives? Then I'll take my chiveralry elsewhere. So there. Nyah! :P
amnuxoll 01-09-07, 02:13 PM	I've been playing most of the Greyhawk mods with my archer as well. He usually wanders about the streets like a lost puppy. ("Has anyone seen my bow?") I like the restriction because it adds flavor to the campaign (or resurrects existing flavor if you prefer). Suddenly a glove of storing seems like a great purchase. =)
Samwise 01-09-07, 02:29 PM	Well I'm sorry you feel that way CrystalBlue. As it happens, people keep anticipating me. I sent a note to Creighton about putting up a formal announcement of corruption being rooted out of the city watch or somesuch, and the laws being more rigorously enforced from this point forward. (In fact I'm sure some people can even point to the incident that would inspire such an announcement. :P ) As noted, they haven't just become illegal. But among numerous things to remember to check in any adventure, they've gotten sidelined regularly. As for a cleric of Heironeous wandering around in public with a longsword, go ahead. Just pay 5 gp, and leave it in your scabbard. If you won't do that, then you aren't really law abiding, are you? As for non-longbows, small or otherwise, yes, I expect they are. They are still not slings, so they should go on the forbidden list. As for an exception, I noted an existing rules structure for it - the Favored and Special Dispensation feats from Cityscape. I even expect they can be made available in core adventures set in the city provided they don't get Restricted in the current LGCS review. I just question if anyone would bother taking them given the rather limited use. Could these be included in a favor? Possibly. There are a bunch of limiting factors on that, including that we haven't considered it yet. (Which means the solution could be as simple as adding "If the PC has the Favor of the City Watch from adventures CORX-XX, he may carry any weapon he pleases." to the Preparation section of an adventure.) So . . . it is on my list. Sam Weiss Core Reviewer
LGMoses 01-09-07, 02:40 PM	quit complaining everyone, its a city. People in cities don't like seeing others running about with a polearm. I know if someone came marching down the street with an m-16 I'd run the other way. Even the police keep their pistols in their sheathe. Quit complaining about minor problems. Not even a problem, common sense realism. Just cuz u've saved Greyhawk a few times doesn't mean every peon on the street knows your name and feels safe with you brandishing a deadly weapon. Just keep in in its sheathe. Really, is that so hard?
Morgen 01-09-07, 03:34 PM	I'm going to complain in a completely opposite way. There aren’t enough cities out there with awesome kick rump laws like this! I think it helps add to the role-playing aspect of the game, which is always a good thing. I've even got some advice for the complainers! STOP BUILDING ONE TRICK PONIES There, I said what had to be said. If your stupid character is worthless just because he looses an animal or a pole-arm or a bow, then don't have a character at all. Have the common sense to carry a dagger on your person if nothing else. So what if you have to put away some +4 frosting flaming penultimate adamantine weapon? Your character shouldn't be just the items they carry, they should be able to adapt and handle situations like that. Walking away from the table and taking a blank AR, wow. Isn’t the whole point of playing this game to have fun playing Dungeons and Dragons? Greyhawk is the largest city we've got in the campaign to my knowledge. They should naturally have some of the best guards there are and laws that reflect the sheer bulk of the city. And obviously favors shouldn't help you BREAK THE LAW. I'd love it if they did, I could just go murder someone and be like, "Timmy Jo the Paladin owes me a favor. He's the sheriff so I can totally kill this NPC in cold blood in front of this crowd of people. He’ll let me off." So you use your favor and get past a few guards. Then the next few notice you and confiscate your weapons or someone just reports seeing people armed to the teeth around the city and you end up getting everyone arrested. It's not that hard to toss your things into a Haversack and just march into the city after all, or someone else’s. (The quiver got taken probably because it's a quiver, not because it's of Elhonna.)
Swiftbrook 01-09-07, 04:16 PM	Yes, this puts a severe crimp on archers, spiked chain dudes, and pole arm users, as well as druids who like any animal except a riding dog. Sam Weiss Core Reviewer My riding dog companion was charged gold because it was medium size not small. So long as this is 'over-the-cap' gold, or part of life style cost, I don't have a problem with it. They're allowed. This is utterly ubsurd. Greyhawk, for six years, has never had these kind of laws and regulations. And now that they do? I have been in several mods that had this rule. The first time I was low level, was denied my bow but my sword was OK then. Second time I had a Quiver of Ehlonna and that got by the guards, but we had no combat. This time, the guards denied my Quiver. I am in favor of anything that follows the old spirit of Greyhawk and back in Y2 & 3 I was actually wondering why they allowed me into the city with my weapons when I knew there were laws about it. I don't have a big problem with the old laws. The old laws let you purchase a license. quit complaining everyone, its a city. People in cities don't like seeing others running about with a polearm. I know if someone came marching down the street with an m-16 I'd run the other way. Even the police keep their pistols in their sheathe. Quit complaining about minor problems. Not even a problem, common sense realism. Just cuz u've saved Greyhawk a few times doesn't mean every peon on the street knows your name and feels safe with you brandishing a deadly weapon. Just keep in in its sheathe. Really, is that so hard? I'm not allowed to keep my bow 'sheathed' in my quiver of Ehlonna. If I were, I wouldn't have a problem. I think my problem with the Greyhawk laws is that I've got one character who has about 3 different favors of the City Guard. She's has access and qualifies for joining some paramilitary Greyhawk police force. Exactly. I have that favor (or a similar one). I'm an archer and have been invited to be part of the Greyhawk milia (or something) and I can't have my bow? If your stupid character is worthless just because he looses an animal or a pole-arm or a bow, then don't have a character at all. Have the common sense to carry a dagger on your person if nothing else. So what if you have to put away some +4 frosting flaming penultimate adamantine weapon? Your character shouldn't be just the items they carry, they should be able to adapt and handle situations like that. Like I said, in combat my archer is a one trick pony. Also, at low APL I could use an available weapon with a good degree of sucess. But at higher APL, the restriction effectively cuts my character level. I've put my feats into archery stuff. I can't fight toe-to-tow with a fighter of the same level with longswords and hope to win. His feats and gold are in his sword. The problem is that my drop in effective character level is not considered in the encounters. How can it be? Another table my have no players that lose their primary weapons. The only way to make the encounters fair, especially at higher APL, is to somehow allow me to have my bow. There are a bunch of limiting factors on that, including that we haven't considered it yet. (Which means the solution could be as simple as adding "If the PC has the Favor of the City Watch from adventures CORX-XX, he may carry any weapon he pleases." to the Preparation section of an adventure.) That is exactly what I'm looking for.
Swiftbrook 01-09-07, 04:27 PM	Slightly off topic: If a mod or encounter restrict a class ability of a character, the APL of the mod/encounter must reflect this restriction. I have seen mods where Druids and Rangers were denied their animal companions. This to me is a no-no. It reduces the effective level of the character and the enjoyment of the player. By denying me my bow, I figure my 8th level archer is worth about the same as a 5th level fighter. That should be reflected in the APL. -Swiftbrook
Madfox11 01-09-07, 04:37 PM	Ironically, I remembered those laws from day 0 and always implemented them when running an adventure in Greyhawk City even if the adventure never mentioned them. I did require the PCs to tie them up in blankets, and drop them off at their tavern as quickly as possible.
wagnert 01-09-07, 04:43 PM	In the same light, but different media, does anyone watch Stargate: SG-1 or Stargate: Atlantis? The team marches into a small town appearing to be at medieval level, boldly carrying their guns, and no one appears to stop them or even look askance. In a large city though, they typically go around without their armaments. Doesn't this sound like the difference between Greyhawk and your typical small town?
Japangirl 01-09-07, 04:44 PM	I'm going to complain in a completely opposite way. There aren’t enough cities out there with awesome kick rump laws like this! I think it helps add to the role-playing aspect of the game, which is always a good thing. I've even got some advice for the complainers! STOP BUILDING ONE TRICK PONIES There, I said what had to be said. If your stupid character is worthless just because he looses an animal or a pole-arm or a bow, then don't have a character at all. Have the common sense to carry a dagger on your person if nothing else. So what if you have to put away some +4 frosting flaming penultimate adamantine weapon? Your character shouldn't be just the items they carry, they should be able to adapt and handle situations like that. Walking away from the table and taking a blank AR, wow. Isn’t the whole point of playing this game to have fun playing Dungeons and Dragons? Greyhawk is the largest city we've got in the campaign to my knowledge. They should naturally have some of the best guards there are and laws that reflect the sheer bulk of the city. And obviously favors shouldn't help you BREAK THE LAW. I'd love it if they did, I could just go murder someone and be like, "Timmy Jo the Paladin owes me a favor. He's the sheriff so I can totally kill this NPC in cold blood in front of this crowd of people. He’ll let me off." So you use your favor and get past a few guards. Then the next few notice you and confiscate your weapons or someone just reports seeing people armed to the teeth around the city and you end up getting everyone arrested. It's not that hard to toss your things into a Haversack and just march into the city after all, or someone else’s. (The quiver got taken probably because it's a quiver, not because it's of Elhonna.) Umm, if you are an archer ranger, while you aren't a one-trick pony, you do definitely need your bow to be effective. One that I know has an adamantine longspear as a backup weapon, but of course he can't take that in either. He goes from a +1 holy, bane (evil outsider) longbow and an intelligent +2 adamantine longspear to a MW greatsword and non-MW morningstar. This is obviously a huge problem for him, because while he doesn't become completely ineffective he does lose the vast majority of his abilities and what he spent all his feats on. I do not say that the laws of the city of Greyhawk are unfair, but they do destroy the effectiveness of many characters. The Handy Haversack thing doesn't work very well, as 1) they search extradimensional space and 2) swords poke holes in haversacks. It is a valid concern of players, but I for one do not think it should prevent any characters from going to Greyhawk because while losing the main weapon is incredibly painful, generally combats in the city are written to keep that in mind (at least I hope so!).
Swiftbrook 01-09-07, 05:17 PM	One point that is being missed here is that we are talking about the City of Greyhawk. A city run by theives!. There should be some kind of game mechanic to bribe the guards, forge a license, bluff the constable, or use a Hat of Disguise to look like a peasant. Something. Box text black-&-whiteness just doesn't cut it. -Swiftbrook
Japangirl 01-09-07, 05:20 PM	Rookroost is run by thieves. Greyhawk just has a Thieves' Guild. There is a significant difference in the corruption of the guards,especially by random adventurers, in those situations.
Mommy was an Orc 01-09-07, 06:41 PM	Rookroost is run by thieves. Greyhawk just has a Thieves' Guild. There is a significant difference in the corruption of the guards,especially by random adventurers, in those situations. The mayor of Greyhawk is actually a Thief...
RedKnightofKet 01-09-07, 06:41 PM	I think the most reasonable approach to take, with character that would be severely hampered in Greyhawk City, is simple: don't go Greyhawk City. I know this isn't always possible, but that's why it's handy to have multiple characters.
Morgen 01-09-07, 08:10 PM	Wow, there are arhers that don't keep other thrown weapons on thier person just in case? Weapons that can double as ranged weapons and qualify for using feats like Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Far Shot, Rapid Shot (with quickdraw or that swift responce card), etc. Let's go down the list of allowable ranged weapons. Daggers, Clubs, Shortspears, Throwing Axes, Light Hammers, Trident, Sai, Net, and Bolas are all back up weapons you could get to help ease the burden of being completely worthless without a bow in your hands. And now, back to sundering bows with orcs. Rawr.
Samwise 01-09-07, 08:11 PM	Hmmm . . . A lot of things: A riding dog shouldn't get charged for entry any more than a horse. That may have been a glitch in interpretation or presentation. For the cost . . . well, I expect people will really hate this, but barring something unusual, such costs will always come out of your pocket. You rarely have any loot on hand when entering the city to sell, so it will cost you directly. For "one trick ponies," I disagree completely. A player makes an archer, he makes an archer, and he should be allowed to. All he shouldn't do is walk around without a melee weapon. I'm tempted to find a way to squeeze in an adventure on the Plains of the Paynims where every encounter takes place at 5 range increments for a composite longbow just to highlight how bad it is when somebody doesn't remember to take a bow, or nobody has long range spells. If the combats wouldn't be mortally boring and tediously long waiting for the inevitable nomads needing crits to score hits vs the rare archer or long range spellcaster while everyone else stares at the DM blankly, I think it might be fun to highlight the other side of this situation. For extradimensional spaces, I'd actually expect them to be safe for the most part. The thing is, if you get caught with illegal weapons, you will pay for it. For bribery, how much would you expect that to be? How much would you expect the fine to be for getting caught? And remember, getting caught isn't just getting through the gate, but using the weapon inside the city and having any witnesses. (Or, as noted with the CSI: Greyhawk comments, a simple Heal check by a magistrate could reveal that it was Mr. PC, with the spiked chain, in the Garden Quarter!) 100 gp bribe to get an illegal weapon in followed by a 1,000 gp fine when you use it? Should we even set people up for that by including it as a rule, or is it better to just accept the outrage over a blanket prohibition? Sam Weiss Core Reviewer
Mommy was an Orc 01-09-07, 08:23 PM	uch would you expect the fine to be for getting caught? And remember, getting caught isn't just getting through the gate, but using the weapon inside the city and having any witnesses. (Or, as noted with the CSI: Greyhawk comments, a simple Heal check by a magistrate could reveal that it was Mr. PC, with the spiked chain, in the Garden Quarter!) 100 gp bribe to get an illegal weapon in followed by a 1,000 gp fine when you use it? Should we even set people up for that by including it as a rule, or is it better to just accept the outrage over a blanket prohibition? I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. Greyhawk is a merchant city giving up a lot of income by not giving out licenses...that's not bribery, that's good business. And this would be in the case of people who had a good rep with the city due to favors done.
Samwise 01-09-07, 08:30 PM	I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. No, I'm expanding on what Swiftbrook said about bribes and the like. I was just noting the downside to that. For what you are saying I already noted that perhaps previous favors could be expanded on. (Or access granted to two feats if you felt like taking them.) Sam Weiss Core Reviewer
Morgen 01-09-07, 09:50 PM	For "one trick ponies," I disagree completely. A player makes an archer, he makes an archer, and he should be allowed to. All he shouldn't do is walk around without a melee weapon. I'm afraid I just can't agree with you there. By that logic I can make a character totally based around throwing saps. It's the only way he'll ever try to attack, and he'll refuse to do anything that doesn’t involve throwing a sap. If there are undead or constructs I just stand up from the table and demand an empty AR, and likewise if things are just too far away to toss saps at. Then I have every right to ***** and complain when my dedication to sap throwing is rendered useless in a mod because I go to a town that outlaws saps, crying out for some sort of retribution against the campaign for how stupid it is for my little non-native character to try and enact sweeping change in the biggest city in Oerth! That's ridiculous, yet that's what all these archers are complaining about. And don’t say the sap thrower is a bad example; I’ve seen far crazier things on a PC’s character sheet.
Samwise 01-09-07, 11:16 PM	No, that's player choice. You make your character, you play your character. If you want to fight campaign rules and adventure situations rather than play them, you get to do that too. I am not a fan of adventures that gratuitously hose class abilities or random, reasonable, PC types. An archer is a very reasonable, very viable, PC archetype. Yes, they should reasonably have trouble in cities. They should know about this before heading into an adventure so they can play another character, but they don't get to demand that no city adventures exist, or no restrictions apply to city adventures. This is the same as with investigative adventures and various character types, or any thing similar. Would I advise an archer to have a backup melee weapon, or even backup throwing daggers? Yes. Do I get to mandate they carry them? No. I don't see that as unreasonable at all.
Simpi 01-10-07, 12:19 AM	In the same light, but different media, does anyone watch Stargate: SG-1 or Stargate: Atlantis? The team marches into a small town appearing to be at medieval level, boldly carrying their guns, and no one appears to stop them or even look askance. In a large city though, they typically go around without their armaments. Well, if this is a medieval town, how would the people know that what they are carrying are weapons and not some clumsy looking farm tools? Typical D&D weapons tend to be bit more easily identifiable = the hurty bits in form of piercing arrow, slashing sword or a blunt mace. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
Gwumph 01-10-07, 01:49 AM	Well I have played and run several Cor5 mods and these rules were around then. Usually it's not a big deal since after the first encounter the police ask for your help and you demand your "big" weapons saying they are vital to combating this problem. Most mods gave reference to allow a diplo check to get your weapons inside. There is a favor in 1 core mod that allows you to become a member of the police force (not paramilitary), you become a constable of the city of greyhawk. For me as a DM, having access to that favor would not be enough. But if a player had paid the TU's and theri character had taken the favor then he would definitly be allowed to keep his weapons; and with a half decent diplo roll could vouch for his friends. So in recap. These rules have been in place for almost 2 years (it does seem related to an emerging storyline) Players have been given opportunities to work around it. There are other ways around it. And a good percentage of the time, the city will ask for the players help at which point they should be able to get their weapons back. So overall it's a flavor thing, a minor annoyance which makes roleplaying fun (if everything went your way, whats the point) Gwumph
gomeztoo 01-10-07, 03:16 AM	I am actually pretty sure that I ran into this rule in year 1. Could even have been River of Blood. I guess it's unpleasant to not have the big guns with you, but as I noted earlier: you are entering a city. Do you really expect to be ambushed by asassassins/robbed by thugs/attacked by hill giants? Most of my PCs don't (except perhaps Greaser, and Clover is a bit apprehensive of vampires). They might not like to give up some of their weapons if they have emotional value, but it's not because they suddenly feels insecure or incapable of combat. After all, when they enters Greyhawk city, they expect to be safe. That's what the guards are for! And, reasonably, the NPC opponents won't have big guns either.
Madfox11 01-10-07, 08:25 AM	You enter Greyhawk City and you expect to be save? :rofl:
CrystalBlue 01-10-07, 08:34 AM	I'm afraid I just can't agree with you there. By that logic I can make a character totally based around throwing saps. It's the only way he'll ever try to attack, and he'll refuse to do anything that doesn’t involve throwing a sap. If there are undead or constructs I just stand up from the table and demand an empty AR, and likewise if things are just too far away to toss saps at. Then I have every right to ***** and complain when my dedication to sap throwing is rendered useless in a mod because I go to a town that outlaws saps, crying out for some sort of retribution against the campaign for how stupid it is for my little non-native character to try and enact sweeping change in the biggest city in Oerth! That's ridiculous, yet that's what all these archers are complaining about. And don’t say the sap thrower is a bad example; I’ve seen far crazier things on a PC’s character sheet. Wow...someone needs to get a clue. You obviously have no idea what any of us are talking about. It's not the rules and laws that we have a problem with. It's the fact that they're being placed in a campaign that, for the most part, demands specilisation and being powerful. Taking away an archer's bow and arrows is like...leaving a wizard without any spells at all. Sure, the wizard could still hang back and fling darts or something every now and then, but it's no where near as effective and just makes the wizard a waste of time. How about we restrict certian divine spells within city walls? Or maybe we'll just say that no weapon can be used at all. That's a great idea. These laws are basically telling every adventurer to come into the local guard house to get declawed. Yay! Now all the hard work and dedication my fighter has put into being a two-fisted master of the blade has been stripped from him...and he's given a stick to defend himself. Weeee! The only people not hurt by this new law are monks, rogues, and bards. Everyone else get's themselves powered down because we all of a sudden want to changes the rules. You don't have a problem with your character having to STILL take on encounter levels of APL+3 while in the city, that's great. But the rest of us would like to continue playing the game though And to everyone that's been saying how the laws have been there...I've never seen them. I have played almost all the core mods from year 5, some from year 6, and I've judged a handful. In none of them do they list laws and rules against having weapons in public while in Greyhawk. If you want to have the leaders and guard of Greyhawk start to pass and enforce stricter weapon laws, then fine! Great! I'm all for that! Put it in a mod or give us some campaign reason why it's happening, or my characters are going to be confused when they're arrested for defeating that vampire in the streets with their +3 Holy Bane(Undead) greatsword.
gomeztoo 01-10-07, 08:35 AM	Of course! The guards will protect me! I would hardly expect them to, say, only turn up three rounds after you have defeated the evil half-ogres wielding polearms and the half-dragon using easily identifiable evil magic?
budleiser 01-10-07, 10:31 AM	Wow, I think everyone is overreacting to these Greyhawk laws. The fact is if these laws are going to be in place, than authors will be required to write them in and be aware of them. This boils down to the fact that the first encounter will assume you don't have said weapons and still be defeatable. OR that before the first encounter you are led to a solution that will grant you your weapons back. These laws are just another set of "rules" for the game that can be used or worked around by the authors. If you walk into a dungeon and it has an anti-magic field would you come here and post complaining about it? How it strips our character to nothing and removes your specializiation from you. How wrong that such a thing could possibly be the reality for your character? Or would you accept its part of the encounter the author wrote up and go along?
trollbill 01-10-07, 10:33 AM	Wow...someone needs to get a clue. You obviously have no idea what any of us are talking about. It's not the rules and laws that we have a problem with. It's the fact that they're being placed in a campaign that, for the most part, demands specilisation and being powerful. First of all specialization does not equal powerful. Secondly, I have seen no evidence to support the claim that LG demands specialization. LG, as far as I can tell, wants the same thing every other D&D games wants, i.e. adaptability and flexibility. Which isn't to say you shouldn't have a specialty, but uberspecilization should not work for someone with a profession as varied as that of an adventurer. Everything has a price. You want to be so generalized you can do everything, then don't complain when the mod requires you to be really good at something. You want to be an uber specialist, then don't complain when your specilization can't be used in the mod. Don't like paying that price, don't uber specialize. City laws that restrict weapons are challenges for the PCs to overcome. I mean, that is why you are playing the game, right? To overcome challenges? So deal with the challenge rather than complaining it shouldn't be there. It is a realistic challenge. I played in the above mentioned mod with my sorcerer. We had an archer with us. He refused to enter the city. We went in without him and spent the morning doing the usual investigation that did not hurt from lack of an archer. When it looked like we might see combat, I left the city to take the archer lunch as he waited outside. After talking with him I realized the problem wasn't just that he was nerfed without his bow, but that he had built his character around the concept that this bow was a gift from his dear departed wife that he would never part with. Hence his main problem was not the nerfing, but the fact he would have to leave his bow behind. Using a combination of Bluff, Disguise, disguise self and Heward's Handy Haversack we managed to smuggle the bow into the city, but kept it under wraps the whole time. As I recall, there was actually only 1 city encounter in that mod, anyway. I also have an archer. On his very first adventure he went into a city that had strict rules about using lethal damage within the city limits. This is a VERY common law in the PoU. So without blunt-tipped arrows, my archer was nerfed for the whole game. Oh, well. I still had other weapons and skills. I whined a little about being stuck in that situation, but I never complained that the situation should never have been there in the first place.
Fleetfang 01-10-07, 11:45 AM	CrystalBlue, I understand your problem about the enforcement of the law coming, in your experience, out of nowhere. Yes, there COULD be a mod that explains in-gmae for all PCs why the city guard are strengthening the enforcement of these laws... but what if you don't get to play that mod in order? Honestly, I think you're making a dragon out of a dungheap. Is it too much for you to accept that this is how the Circle wants to do things, to return to the canonical City of Greyhawk a bit more and re-infuse the campaign with a bit more 'realism'? The campaign staff is already stretched thin with their time. Couldn't you just pretend that the kind of announcement that Sam mentioned earlier could happen off-screen, between adventures? Or consider this: your PC isn't omniscient. Although it might seem like it, he isn't present at every major event that happens everywhere in the World. Maybe something happened while he wasn't around, and that caused the stricter enforcement. Maybe the 'thieves' behind the scenes in the city government like to have control of all the weapons in town, so they found some oft-overlooked laws and decided to take advantage of them. Nothing spectacular... just a clerk in a dusty library pulls out a tome and says, "Hey, Lord! Look at this!" and then your PC has to surrender his weapons at the gate. I find it hard to see how you think it'd be reasonable to request an adventure be written to justify everything that any governing body might want to change about it's policies. My last advice: Relax and roll with it. Take a deep breath, buy some throwing axes or some daggers, and trust that the folks in charge of approving adventures will indeed adjust the EL of encounters where archers or mages or whoever are nerfed by in-game restrictions. --FF PS: I completely agree with Sam on the point of specialization being valid, but that there is little or no excuse for not having a backup tactic. It's almost another thread, but I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to strangle the BDF-2H-PA guy for not even having a sling for ranged attacks. It's freakin free, people! :)
CrystalBlue 01-10-07, 12:06 PM	I just think it's a dumb thing to start introducing rules with no backing for them. Great that they had them way back when. I'm all for making the game more consistant with the canon material. BUT...give us a little slack here. My cleric has fought evils of all shapes and odors in the streets and sewers of Greyhawk. And now he's expected to keep that up, but never to use lethal force? At what point does the city guard say "Ok, you can start doing real damage to that thing that doesn't care about your subdual damage."? And about being specilized...no. I don't expect an archer to ONLY have a bow and arrows. That is plain dumb. My archer has two bows, a falchion, and four short swords, just in case. Plus, I have a good supply of alchemic items like tanglefoot bags and thunderstones. I just know that, where I live (Highfolk and the Shieldlands), it's almost as much of a crime to be wandering around places WITHOUT a weapon then it is to have one in a city. You get ambushed so many times in Highfolk, it's sad. And the Shieldlands? You need to be ready to fight at the drop of a hat, no matter if you're fighting on the boarder of in Critwall. It's just a fact of life.
budleiser 01-10-07, 12:14 PM	And now he's expected to keep that up, but never to use lethal force? At what point does the city guard say "Ok, you can start doing real damage to that thing that doesn't care about your subdual damage."? Which mod is that?
pedr 01-10-07, 12:27 PM	Indeed! Read the actual restrictions (they're in COR5-19 Retribution if you have access to it). It's not 100% clear, but the only outright banned items are bows, crossbows, spears, polearms and 'other large weapons'. Other swords, axes etc can be carried so long as they are in a scabbard or head-case. If you're obviously fighting in self-defense against enemies of the Free City then it's unlikely that the Watch will cart you off for unsheathing your sword. Nowhere does it say that only non-lethal damage is permitted - though of course you might be called upon to explain the exact circumstances of anything which caused you to attack someone else in the street!
Fleetfang 01-10-07, 12:36 PM	So just to make sure I have this straight: Blue, you're looking for justification from the powers that be in the game to explain to your characters how they are expected to do their jobs under the "new" (note quotations) laws, in spite of the fact that you've been able to get away with breaking them in the past for the good of the City. I think that's what we're looking at, right? I wonder how that would go over in a modern parallel... We need something that equates to a potentially deadly situation. Carrying a gun? Or maybe driving under the influence? Let's go with the handgun: A guy gets stopped for walking down the street without a permit for his gun. In fact, personal weapons have never been allowed in this city. In the past, no one has stopped him before. As a matter of fact, he once used his gun to save another person from getting mugged and even shot a guy who was knocking over a liquor store. What gives?! He's used his gun to help the police in the past, and he's never been cited for carrying it around. Furthermore, he's kind of scrawny and without his gun, he'd be useless in defending anyone who was being attacked. And it's dangerous in the city. He needs his gun! So he goes to City Hall and says, "Hey! I need my gun to defend myself and to defend the people who can't defend themselves! It's never been a problem before, and I've even helped out the cops with my gun. Now all of a sudden, you're saying that I can't carry it because of some stupid law that nobody was enforcing? What the hell?" What would happen in that situation? Probably, he'd be told to suck it up. He got away with it in the past, but he can consider himself lucky on that. As for defending himself and others, that's the cops' job. They are there to protect people, and he has to trust them to do that. Granted, it's not a perfect analogy, and we all can metagame about when the City Guard will actually arrive, but in the world of the game, I think you're being unreasonsable. You want an in-game rationalization for what's happened/happening, when in-game, the government owes you nothing of the sort. No matter how many favors you've done for the City in the past. Sometimes government makes hairbrained decisions, but unfortunately, they don't require your approval for the way they do business--especially in a Monarchy. And they are under no requirement to explain to you why they do things the way that they do.
trollbill 01-10-07, 12:36 PM	I just know that, where I live (Highfolk and the Shieldlands), it's almost as much of a crime to be wandering around places WITHOUT a weapon then it is to have one in a city. You get ambushed so many times in Highfolk, it's sad. And the Shieldlands? You need to be ready to fight at the drop of a hat, no matter if you're fighting on the boarder of in Critwall. It's just a fact of life. I am not sure if this is really a complaint or not, but I see this as a good thing, not a bad one. Each region should be different from the next, and when in Rome, do as the Romans.
CrystalBlue 01-10-07, 12:55 PM	That...or slaughter the men and sell the women and children off into slavery. Then it's your region as well. Yay for holy crusades and conquest. ^.^ Fine...then whenever the city guard of Greyhawk or some big-shot guy wants me to help them out inside of the city, I'll be more then willing to help...if they consider me an exception to the rules. After all...if you're saying that I'm going to be doing the job of the city watch, then I should have the same privalages and rights as the watch. If you're going to make me help the cops, then you better five me the Fifth Freedom, or I won't be able to deal out my brand of justice to the foes. ^.^ See...Church Inquisitors of Heironeous know what justice is and how it should be dealt out to evil. You call down the thunder, don't expect to be saved from the lightning.
Kithran 01-10-07, 01:11 PM	I think what has people more annoyed is not the fact that the laws exist but the way they were introduced to 99% of the people. To use a better analogy imagine you regularly travel to London by train with friends, sometimes the same friends, sometimes different friends. You get there as normal with five of your mates but instead of just handing in your ticket to the ticket collector as you leave the platform you are also told that jeans are not allowed to be worn, and that this has always been the rule. This is despite the fact you and your friends have worn jeans every other time you've been to London and you can quite merrily buy jeans in London. It is such a fundemental rule that it beggars belief that everyone had just forgotten about it. It should have been publicised in a Dispel Confusion rather than just stunning players out of the blue - especially as mods make no mention of this being a new (in game terms not world terms) rule whereas in realitty characters would already know about it. Similarly the basics of the rule (and more than is given in the mods) should also be known - in the same way everyone knows the simple facts about laws - everyone konws you need a driving licence to be allowed to drive and its trivial to find out how to get one. Everyone knows you need a firearms licence in the uk to own any sort of gun, that a lot aren't allowed and its not easy to get one. This is the sort of information that should be known. Similarly if the guards check everyone coming in people will be aware of the normal process of how the checks work - visual, a search, magic. I've suggested in the LGCS thread that this sort of information should be included in the next LGCS precisely because it is something that is campaign wide and would be common knowledge. Indeed greater detail is needed if only to ensure gm's deal with it in a consistant manner. Kithran
Samwise 01-10-07, 01:42 PM	CrystalBlue: You are insisting on aspects of the law that do not exist. Nothing prevents you from using lethal attacks if attacked. There is no law against that, none has been stated, none is being contemplated, and barring something totally bizarre, none will be implemented. There will be a law requiring you to pay a fee to hack down random evildoers within city limits though. Think of it as a hunting license if it helps. As for background justification and implementation, that already exists, both for how the laws could be "forgotten" and how they could be revived. Greyhawk has an entire organization of "guards" who wander around the city fining random passersby for absurd laws that less than a dozen people are even aware exists. This has been mentioned before in adventures, but is rarely bothered with since it is close to a "joke" encounter that most players dislike. But Greyhawk breaks out the obscure laws all the time. As it happens though, these laws are not obscure, they have simply been uneforced for "convenience" for several years. Now the situation is changing. There's a war with the Pomarj, Hardby is uppity, and things are generally stressful. And let's not discuss that "Something of Value" incident. And so Tigran Gellner has lowered the boom on his watch commanders, and made it clear the gate guards either start searching adventurers for weapons again, or they will find themselves on the front line where they don't have to search the orcs for weapons. Kithran: If it hasn't been completely clear yet, I am the person who will be writing such a document up. I am working on it now. As in "I typed up a summary and a draft last night and I'm discussing details this week." I wouldn't expect it to be in the LGCS though, as it isn't a campaign wide rule. (Other cities will have their own laws.) Depending on word count requirements, it will include the laws, a section on how to use them in play (not that I would expect that to guarantee consistency), and maybe a bit more. So if you have a comment or suggestion about the laws, I'm listening. Sam Weiss Core Reviewer
CrystalBlue 01-10-07, 01:57 PM	Um....no offense, but yes it is a campaign-wide rule. Everyone can play Core mods, everyone can walk into Greyhawk, and everyone will be effected. They are rules that everyone will have to follow. Ergo, they are campaign wide. You are insisting on aspects of the law that do not exist. Nothing prevents you from using lethal attacks if attacked. There is no law against that, none has been stated, none is being contemplated, and barring something totally bizarre, none will be implemented. There will be a law requiring you to pay a fee to hack down random evildoers within city limits though. Think of it as a hunting license if it helps. It just looked, from the way things were said, that lethal force was illegal. I thought that's what the whole weapon-banning was about. Another reason why I hope the laws will be explained in more detail. As for background justification and implementation, that already exists, both for how the laws could be "forgotten" and how they could be revived. Greyhawk has an entire organization of "guards" who wander around the city fining random passersby for absurd laws that less than a dozen people are even aware exists. This has been mentioned before in adventures, but is rarely bothered with since it is close to a "joke" encounter that most players dislike. But Greyhawk breaks out the obscure laws all the time. As it happens though, these laws are not obscure, they have simply been uneforced for "convenience" for several years. Now the situation is changing. There's a war with the Pomarj, Hardby is uppity, and things are generally stressful. And let's not discuss that "Something of Value" incident. And so Tigran Gellner has lowered the boom on his watch commanders, and made it clear the gate guards either start searching adventurers for weapons again, or they will find themselves on the front line where they don't have to search the orcs for weapons. If this is the reason, that's fine. I accept the reason. I always have. I just wanted it justified and given to everyone so they all know that laws and rules. Not, "We're enforcing this becase it was always a law, we just didn't feel like enforcing it." That's what this whole thing has been looking like to me.
Samwise 01-10-07, 02:38 PM	Um....no offense, but yes it is a campaign-wide rule. Everyone can play Core mods, everyone can walk into Greyhawk, and everyone will be effected. They are rules that everyone will have to follow. Ergo, they are campaign wide. Well, no. They are adventure series wide. If there is a Core adventure in Highport or Eastfair or somewhere else, those laws don't apply. It just looked, from the way things were said, that lethal force was illegal. I thought that's what the whole weapon-banning was about. Another reason why I hope the laws will be explained in more detail. I'm not sure how much detail can be added. Lethal force isn't banned. Nothing says that. Only certain weapons are banned, and others require a license. Sam Weiss Core Reviewer
Simpi 01-10-07, 03:50 PM	Sheesh, stop feeding the troll already. The original reason was already given (quoting older sourcebooks and modules) and now when it was clarified, how does it change the original issue? The law was already there but suddenly the guy accepts it because someone in position of power says so. As Fleetfang said, the guy is looking for a lopphole and it seems he is already been given one on a silver plate :banghead: Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
CrystalBlue 01-10-07, 03:59 PM	*sigh* Obviously, one can't get something clarified here without being called a troll or a whiner. I'm not going to reitterate myself for the millionth time. But I will tell you that I'm not looking for a way out. As I said, I've been in a lot of mods where I've had to keep my weapons in check and I've never had a problem with it. So I'm not looking for a loophole. Now, I'm done conversing, because it's obvious my questions and opinions aren't welcome by certain members of this board. I'll leave this up for 'intellegent' people to discuss, cause it's obvious I don't have the brain power to comprehend this.
GrahamWills 01-10-07, 05:16 PM	Nerfed characters are not an uncommon problem. It has happened commonly in mods I have been in: 3 times weapons have been taken away (Greyhawk twice), nerfing people who depend on certain weapons 2 times I have been in the land of black ice and seen my warmage COMPLETEY nerfed -- effectively spellcasting was useless (as in, my best combat technique was to assist defend) 2 times I have been in a mod with "non-lethal only" laws that nerfed warmages, specialist fighters and archers all. This is simply the price you pay for specialization. You are built for one purpose. When that purpose is not possible, you are nerfed. Archers and Warmages are, in particular, subject to that. If specialists were always effective, why would anyone play a generalist? Indeed that is the POINT of being a generalist -- to be not as good as a specialist in their special area, but rarely nerfed. A useful contrast to consider is between a mounted archer (almost always nerfed, ungodly effective when not) and a monk (never nerfed, always not a good as someone else). If you delight in the thought of being able to single-handedly take out high EL opponents when the stars are right, play the former. If you delight in the thought of always being able to be somewhat effective, play the latter.
Swiftbrook 01-10-07, 05:41 PM	Kithran: If it hasn't been completely clear yet, I am the person who will be writing such a document up. I am working on it now. As in "I typed up a summary and a draft last night and I'm discussing details this week." I wouldn't expect it to be in the LGCS though, as it isn't a campaign wide rule. (Other cities will have their own laws.) Depending on word count requirements, it will include the laws, a section on how to use them in play (not that I would expect that to guarantee consistency), and maybe a bit more. So if you have a comment or suggestion about the laws, I'm listening. Sam Weiss Core Reviewer First and formost: Sam Weiss, Thank you for listening! I can not stress this enough. Many, many times I feel as if the 'powers that be' don't listen. Second: When you get the document typed up, include it in the City of Greyhawk Source Book that should be accompaning the new story arc. Bright Sands had its own source book, so I suspect that the City of Greyhawk/Castle Greyhawk should as well. Third: The Laws of the City of Greyhawk: 1) The City's Laws Keep them - they add flavor Fix them - riding dogs, bows etc. Make them consistent - make the document widely available 2) Give us away to work around/with the laws AR with favor the the city watch allows carrying of weapons AR with access to be a member of some city watch allows carrying of weapons Include rules for getting stuff past the guards, bribes, etc Include a way to purchase a license, if appropriate 3) Enforce the laws Fairly, equally, etc If a character uses a restricted item, have them provide good justification. If valid, OK; if somewhat valid, fine the 10% of the AR gold; if not valid, confiscate the weapon; if out right illegal/evil, take the weapon and throw them in jail for 20 TU. License to carry is not a license to kill. No 007 here. If they use it, they must justify their actions. So I used my bow on the thief. Did I have to kill them with frosty standard arrows when I could have used blunt arrows? Did I have to use a fireball when I could have used sleep? That said, in the LGCS give core access for everyone to blunt arrows. 4) Remember Rule #1: We're all here to have fun. If these rules/laws are breaking Rule #1, change the laws and procedures for using them. 5) Don't shoot the messenger. I can't believe my little rant created all this. I guess I hit a sore spot. -Swiftbrook
RedKnightofKet 01-10-07, 05:48 PM	Sam, Just to be clear, this document will be added as an appendix to ALL modules set wholly or in part in Greyhawk City? Also, can this document be available on the LG Campaign website, ala the LGCS and Dieties Document? (Perhaps it could be added to future LGCS documents, as time permits) I'm sure you've already thought of this stuff, but it would be helpful to know that this stuff is being kept in mind. Keep up the good work!
Samwise 01-10-07, 07:32 PM	A lot of the campaign staff is out there listening, they just don't reply all that often. At least unless things have changed remarkably since I was Triad. Also bear in mind that some things can't be discussed because of NDA's. So . . . Second: When you get the document typed up, include it in the City of Greyhawk Source Book that should be accompaning the new story arc. Bright Sands had its own source book, so I suspect that the City of Greyhawk/Castle Greyhawk should as well. I will recommend that. Third: The Laws of the City of Greyhawk: 1) The City's Laws Keep them - they add flavor Fix them - riding dogs, bows etc. Make them consistent - make the document widely available Doing that. Addressed. (Riding dogs should be in, bows are still out.) Widely available isn't the same as consistent. See below for that again. 2) Give us away to work around/with the laws AR with favor the the city watch allows carrying of weapons AR with access to be a member of some city watch allows carrying of weapons Include rules for getting stuff past the guards, bribes, etc Include a way to purchase a license, if appropriate All included already. 3) Enforce the laws Fairly, equally, etc If a character uses a restricted item, have them provide good justification. If valid, OK; if somewhat valid, fine the 10% of the AR gold; if not valid, confiscate the weapon; if out right illegal/evil, take the weapon and throw them in jail for 20 TU. License to carry is not a license to kill. No 007 here. If they use it, they must justify their actions. So I used my bow on the thief. Did I have to kill them with frosty standard arrows when I could have used blunt arrows? Did I have to use a fireball when I could have used sleep? That said, in the LGCS give core access for everyone to blunt arrows. Will try. I can only write these as clearly as possible, revising them based on feedback. I can't control each individual DM. Addressed to a certain extent, but that is very subjective, and very hard to write rules for. More a specific adventure issue. Not under my control in any way. 4) Remember Rule #1: We're all here to have fun. If these rules/laws are breaking Rule #1, change the laws and procedures for using them. Addressed as part of implementing the laws. Again, it is subject to the individual DMs. I can write "Don't wreck the game over a single smuggled spiked chain." Whether someone decides to or not I can't control. 5) Don't shoot the messenger. I can't believe my little rant created all this. I guess I hit a sore spot. No, it was actually something I've been dealing with recently. (Not really a secret, just check the number of adventures blurbs that mention the city.) All you did was push it up a bit further. Just remember, don't shoot at me! Just to be clear, this document will be added as an appendix to ALL modules set wholly or in part in Greyhawk City? Also, can this document be available on the LG Campaign website, ala the LGCS and Dieties Document? (Perhaps it could be added to future LGCS documents, as time permits) I started on it so it could serve as a standard boilerplate for all adventures in the city. So I really expect it to be part of all such adventures. I don't have control over the website. If there is a Greyhawk Ruins campaign book, I would expect it to be included in that. As I've said, I really don't expect it to be in the LGCS. It simply isn't a campaign rule, just a recurring Core adventure background element. That's not something that belongs in the LGCS. Sam Weiss Core Reviewer
chesspiece 01-10-07, 09:37 PM	Trollbill (in post #48) mentioned that in some _other_ city adventure, there were prohibitions against lethal damage. This caused some confusion but it wasn't referring to Greyhawk City. Of course, if using non-lethal is a concern to your PCs, don’t visit Ket! (On the bright side, many Ketite criminals limit themselves to non-lethal and that restriction doesn't apply to monsters, evil cultists, and elves - aka monsters.) -------------------- Sam, I ask that you consider mentioning the following: Which weapon category do spiked chains fall into? I don’t want to debate whether folding them makes them "small enough". Impact of PC size (S / M / L). Small Greatsword = Medium Longsword = Large Shortsword? Or all Longswords are treated equally? Impact of extradimensional spaces. Are all bags / quivers / haversacks searched? Do they really want archery specialists to switch from bows to alchemists fire? Or is that another banned substance in the city? Perhaps mention if Castle Greyhawk is situated outside the city itself and whether these rules apply to expeditions there? Are these rules being printed to spread the word about what will be used as Boilerplate in future modules? Or are they retroactively applied to all existing adventures in GH City – clarifying & overruling any weapons rules (or lack thereof) in existing modules? Thank you for your efforts.
Samwise 01-11-07, 02:01 AM	Which weapon category do spiked chains fall into? I don’t want to debate whether folding them makes them "small enough". They are reach weapons. (Which means no licenses granted.) Impact of PC size (S / M / L). Small Greatsword = Medium Longsword = Large Shortsword? Or all Longswords are treated equally? Weapon sizes did not exist in the rules when the City of Greyhawk boxed set was written. Weapons are being classified by the use of their specified size. A small greatsword is a two-handed weapon. A large longsword is a one-handed weapon. A large dagger is a dagger. Impact of extradimensional spaces. Are all bags / quivers / haversacks searched? It will be addressed. Do they really want archery specialists to switch from bows to alchemists fire? Or is that another banned substance in the city? It isn't banned, but it will likely result in a major arrest. Do archery specialists really want to switch from smuggling charges to arson charges? Perhaps mention if Castle Greyhawk is situated outside the city itself and whether these rules apply to expeditions there? I expect it to be obvious from the text that these laws only apply inside the city, when you go through the gates. Are these rules being printed to spread the word about what will be used as Boilerplate in future modules? Or are they retroactively applied to all existing adventures in GH City – clarifying & overruling any weapons rules (or lack thereof) in existing modules? I am listening to comments so I can include as much as possible and create a standard for future adventures. As any author who deals with typing up new rules items will tell you, it is a lot easier to cut and paste something in than it is to type it up new every time. And it will save me having to explain them each time. Given the requirements of adventure posting and the like, I doubt any of these will apply retroactively. Thank you for your efforts. You are welcome. Sam Weiss Core Reviewer
gomeztoo 01-11-07, 03:01 AM	If there is need, I am willing to review any Greyhawk City guide book docs.
chesspiece 01-11-07, 09:20 AM	Great answers Sam. Merci. I expect it to be obvious from the text that these laws only apply inside the city, when you go through the gates. Agreed. My intent was that some non-grognard Judges might get confused if it isn't stated somewhere (either thinking the Castle is within the City, or thinking all the City's Laws extend beyond than the gates). Since Castle GH will comprise a significant 2007 playing opportunity and will likely be a combat slobber-knocker... I don't think you'd want to risk some tables getting hosed & frustrated. Because you know you'd hear about it later. ;) One more request for the boilerplate: How long are the passes good for? Until you leave the City? 1 Day / 1 Adventure / 2 TUs / 1 CY?
deltadave 01-11-07, 12:08 PM	How about the implementation that I've been using in my home game for years. I've always felt that confiscating weapons at the gate isn't really practical and so have used peace bonds instead. A peace bond is a braided iron wire that is wound around the hilt of weapons in such a way that they are bound into the sheath and sealed with a lead seal over the knot. For weapons that don't normally have a sheath, a leather bag is bound around the head with a similar braided wire. Bows and crossbows have to be unstrung and the string is bound inside a leather pouch and to the limb of the bow with more braided wire. Spell component pouches are sealed in the same way. Using braided wire prevents the use of a mending spell, since there is more than one break, the leather bags have tended to be rather ornate and fragile so they get shredded if the weapon is used in any way. The purpose of the binding isn't really to prevent the use of the weapon, but rather to make it impossible to hide the fact that it has been used. Fines for having a broken binding tend to be very high unless there is an extremely good reason. Items that allow hiding of weapons - handy haversack, glove of item storing, etc. The authorities are aware of these items, but being as it would be impossible to discover all of them they have taken the pragmatic step of ignoring them. However, deliberately hiding weapons from the authorities is a crime in and of itself. Offensive spellcasting is similarly treated and punished with heavy fines. Pleading self defense is acceptable, but destroying the corpse or rendering it unusable for forensic examination is also a crime and considered prima facie evidence of wrongdoing. (an example would be removing the tongue and lower jaw). I've also come up with some forensic type spells: Past Caster - detects spells that have been cast (school, strength) by a particular caster or in a particular area. kind of like gunshot residue. Blood Link - causes items that have even a small amount of blood from a victim on them to shake violently for a short time. If someone was in the immediate vicinity when someone is struck by a weapon it is likely that their clothing has some blood on it. There are about 6 or 7 others, but I don't have them right in front of me now... Game Rules: Breaking the binding wire and seal requires an easy strength check (DC 5). In addition the following rules apply: Drawing a sheathed, peace bound weapon is a full round action that provokes an attack of opportunity. It also destroys the binding beyond recovery. Strung weapons take 2 rounds to get ready for combat - 1 round to get the string from the bound bag, one round to string the weapon. Both actions trigger attacks of opportunity. Using a peace bound axe or pole arm is at -4 to hit and does half damage to the target of the attack. the other half of the damage goes to the leather bag around the weapon (Hardness 2, HP 8). the binding is destroyed beyond recovery if it takes more than it's hp in damage.
Samwise 01-11-07, 02:03 PM	One more request for the boilerplate: How long are the passes good for? Until you leave the City? 1 Day / 1 Adventure / 2 TUs / 1 CY? 1 week. I am including a note that this will almost always be the entire duration of an adventure. deltadave: I can't include new game system rules or spells. And I need to keep it short and simple. Every rule is another friction point of interpretation. The fewer there are the better. Sam Weiss Core Reviewer
Lord Yod 01-11-07, 04:10 PM	A good source for an in-game system for this would be Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series. (I know it's a love-it or hate-it series, let's not get into that.) One of the cities(Far Madding) has very similar weapon laws - you can either turn them over or get them peace-bonded similar to deltadave's suggestion above. Just a suggestion.
Mommy was an Orc 01-11-07, 04:24 PM	I think something that might be useful is a 'walk the players through why their precious possessions will be safe and not accidentally lost' - impress upon them the safety of their items during some greyhawk mod.
Madfox11 01-12-07, 04:26 AM	Personally I always have been a fan of peacebound and seals ever since reading about it in the FR (Cormyr) a long time ago. It is used in the few places in Sunndi where they actually even have weapon laws, and even there breaking the seals hardly ever leads to a fine (don't you love NG/CG nations ;) ). I agree that it makes much more sense than turning them over to the guards, who suddenly have to deal with incredibly expensive items (some of which you could buy a kingdom with) and need to come up with a sure-proof method of identification (which is kind of hard in a typical D&D setting). Besides, in a typical D&D setting it is really easy to smuggles weapons inside, so taking them in at the gates is not a big detterent either. Cityscape has a few spells that deal with weapon regulations, most notably peacebound and detect weapons[\I]. Peacebound gets a weapon stuck in its scabbard, but it has a rather short duration (10 min/level) and targets only 1 weapon to be practical at the gates (or any other place for that matter). The area version of that spell is more useful, especially in regions where taking somebodies weapons is a dishonor to that person. [i]Detect weapons though is reasonably practical since it covers a large area, and has a duration of 10 min/lvl.
LGMoses 01-12-07, 04:29 PM	How hard are the guards looking for weapons in the city of Greyhawk? I mean, they only confiscate polearms and such so I haven't been having them search through possessions or anything, just take what was visible and warn them of the rules.
Gwumph 01-15-07, 01:01 AM	Moses sure they might not search, but then again if the PC's don't volunteer to give up their restricted weapons, when something happens in the city, and the guard finds them with restricted weapons things might get very difficult for the party. I would suggest trying to sneak weapons in since it could cause the module to become a "hide from the guard" thing. (and if the party has to work with the guard to finish the adventure this could be very problematic!!!)
cetiken 01-15-07, 08:15 PM	A few thoughts from an unabashed archer: My current plan with reguard to the "Freecity" is to find a Quiver of Elohona (or whomever) toss an oilcloth over it and tie the oilcloth on. This should make it appear a simple covered tube on my back. Some sort of insturment perhaps (Tommy guns in guitar cases anyone?). This should be fine for all but thorogh seaches which will hopefully only be scripted to be rare and encounters in the city after that should also take these extreme measures in account, so I'm not too worried about relying on my secondary weapons. Just considering the number of wagons that must enter the city every day the the idea of thoroughly searching each of those is staggering. My big worry is DMs who take it on themselves to perform though extradementional space searchs out of some sort of desire to 'hose the players'. Such an attitude annoys me. On a seperate note the core rules encourage archery as a vaild character specilization at least as much as they encourage focusing on Enchantment magics. And while I'm aware that I'll get 'hosed' by some encounters (elementals and most monsters with DR of - or hardness) just as an enchanter will be hosed when fighting constructs or undead. Thats just part of playing the game. But to think that players won't be significantly impacted by taking away their most valuable items (his bow for any archer) is foolishness.
Swiftbrook 01-16-07, 05:55 PM	I've been thinking about a Hat of Disguise. Appear to be a simple laborer with a hat, no shirt, shorts and sandles. Nothing to search, the guards let you go right in. -Swiftbrook
Madfox11 01-17-07, 10:43 AM	DC 11 Will save to see through the illusion of a hat of disguise. Granted, you need to interact with the illusion, but hiding that full plate and dozen of weapons is bound to cause a lot of noise which is not muffled by the hat. It is not worth the risk ;)
trollbill 01-17-07, 10:54 AM	DC 11 Will save to see through the illusion of a hat of disguise. Granted, you need to interact with the illusion, but hiding that full plate and dozen of weapons is bound to cause a lot of noise which is not muffled by the hat. It is not worth the risk ;) All that issue with noisy items has to do with the character's ability to Disguise themselves successfully enough to evade such interaction. Remember, Disguise isn't just about looking like someone you aren't, its about acting, sounding and even smelling like someone you aren't, as well. At most, having a bunch of noisy equipment is only going to give you a negative circumstance modifier to your Disguise check (which is at +10 for the hat of disguise). Then there is the Bluff check you get to make when they ask you about the funny clanking noise when you walk. And then there is the Will save when they interact with the illusion (unless padding you down is SOP for the guard, which I highly doubt). If you have a good charisma and/or 5 ranks in Bluff and Disguise, your odds should be pretty good.
Simpi 01-17-07, 11:01 AM	And then there is the Will save when they interact with the illusion (unless padding you down is SOP for the guard, which I highly doubt). If you have a good charisma and/or 5 ranks in Bluff and Disguise, your odds should be pretty good. Well, the above example seemed to assume that SOP for every law enforcement member in Flanaess is = Act like a moron. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
Madfox11 01-17-07, 11:25 AM	No Simpi, but the average guard does not have very high Sense Motive checks, and if a PC rolls a decent Bluff check he comes up with a good believable lie regardless of whether the guard is moron. The hat of disguise in combination with a decent Bluff check probably does get you in as long as the guard has no reason to be suspicious. In a region at war though you can expact to be patted all the time ;) And that is assuming there is no cleric or wizard with a wand of detect magic concentrating on the gate ;)
trollbill 01-17-07, 12:54 PM	Well, the above example seemed to assume that SOP for every law enforcement member in Flanaess is = Act like a moron. Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad It's not a matter of being a moron. A guard who spends an 8-hour shift trying to figure out if 1,000 people who walk through the gate of a major city during his shift have anything to hide isn't going to be super vigalent. By the disguise rules, guards in this situation would get a Spot check which they would likely Take 10 on. The average guard is lucky if they have more than +4 on this check. Remember, both the guards and the vast majority of people they watch going through the gate are normal average citizenry. The PCs are supposed to be heroes. If they have gone to the effort of casting spells, putting ranks in Disguise and Bluff, and otherwise going to effort to do this, they should have the advantage. If they don't, then it's the guards who are heroic, not the PCs. In a region at war though you can expact to be patted all the time ;) Depends. A major trade metropolis, which Greyhawk is, would have a very difficult time padding down everyone who walked through their gates even in times of war. And that is assuming there is no cleric or wizard with a wand of detect magic concentrating on the gate ;) Yes, such precations are not beyond the scope of possibility, but they should be the exception (i.e. it should be specifically noted they do this) than the rule (i.e. the default DM's assumption).
Japangirl 01-17-07, 06:25 PM	Not to mention that all the PCs detect as really really magical past about level 6 or so. It's obvious they aren't commoners (I mean, how many commoners wear arms, armor, ioun stones, etc) so one would expect them to be magical detecting. I'd be a lot more suspicious of an ioun stone that didn't detect as magical, myself. In other words, a Hat of Disguise making a PC detect as magic isn't going to give them away, they detect as magic anyways.
Madfox11 01-18-07, 11:33 AM	In other words, a Hat of Disguise making a PC detect as magic isn't going to give them away, they detect as magic anyways. Well, it detects as Illusion magic all over the character, but even if the caster fails his Spellcraft check, there are very few persons walking through that gate that light up like a Christmast tree. Anybody who does is filthy rich and likely a dangerous adventurer. The guard can spare the time to search such characters more thoroughly. Granted, a smart spy/sabboteur would make sure he does NOT light up, but no guard can afford to make a mistake in times of war. Mind you, I agree with Trollbill that this should be the exception not the rule, and it is unlikely to happen in Greyhawk City. I was merely pointing out the downsides and risks of using a hat of disguise ;)
Samwise 01-18-07, 12:10 PM	In general, the guards shouldn't be groping all over PCs, crawling inside every bag to be sure it isn't an extra-dimensional space, or leering at everyone with detect magic spells. Specific searches noted within the adventure, or the search after you get in trouble fighting in the streets are not "in general," and you should expect everything to be found.
LGMoses 01-18-07, 02:12 PM	when i start the mod i just have each of the pc's do a quick scene at the gate where the guard asks them their names, place of birth, business in the city. The guard is usually very surly. Their visible Polearms are confiscated. They are told to keep their weapons attached to their belt and sheathed at all times, Welcome to the Free City of Greyhawk. Then we cut go to the introduction. Thats it.
thorinXXX 01-21-07, 12:16 PM	Sam, I'm sure that you have already considered most if not all of this, but please have rules for the mundane methods of getting past the guards. I.E. Forgery: (forged pass) Bluff: 'I am a secret agent for the lord mayor' Favors: Hiding the weapon: (Sleight of Hand) If you go with the peacebond route include stuff for people tampering with them, and the tampering being noticed. Include penalties for violating the laws, and ways to get out of the penalties. I.E. Bribe: (diplomacy) Bluff: 'I forgot my permit in my other pants.' Charm/suggestion: 'These are not the restricted weapons you are looking for.' Turn invisible and run Teleport On another note, my favorite way to smuggle stuff is to hand it to the local druid and have him wildshape into a mount or donkey.
LGMoses 01-21-07, 01:39 PM	Sam, I'm sure that you have already considered most if not all of this, but please have rules for the mundane methods of getting past the guards. I.E. Forgery: (forged pass) Bluff: 'I am a secret agent for the lord mayor' Favors: Hiding the weapon: (Sleight of Hand) If you go with the peacebond route include stuff for people tampering with them, and the tampering being noticed. Include penalties for violating the laws, and ways to get out of the penalties. I.E. Bribe: (diplomacy) Bluff: 'I forgot my permit in my other pants.' Charm/suggestion: 'These are not the restricted weapons you are looking for.' Turn invisible and run Teleport On another note, my favorite way to smuggle stuff is to hand it to the local druid and have him wildshape into a mount or donkey. lol, ur post is great. It shows how variable dnd can be. I think the most that can be done is include the average spot/sense motive of a guard or a prerolled dc. I remember one mod that listed the contents of a patrol in Greyhawk City and some of the stuff they carried and who was seargent and what/not. But I'm really learning to DM from running these LG mods and its great. I'm learning slowly how to run higher level stuff and it won't be long before I am well versed.
Samwise 01-21-07, 04:17 PM	Sam, I'm sure that you have already considered most if not all of this, but please have rules for the mundane methods of getting past the guards. I.E. Forgery: (forged pass) Bluff: 'I am a secret agent for the lord mayor' Favors: Hiding the weapon: (Sleight of Hand) A forged pass would be rather difficult to carry off. All the guards need to do is check their records and see that no, you weren't passed through a gate and register a weapon at that time. (Bureaucracy is such an evil thing.) And when you get caught, you are now guilty of forgery as well as smuggling. Bluff wouldn't work long term. You might get in the city, but if anything goes wrong, they are going to check you out, and again you just upped your crime. Favors are covered. Hiding stuff is addressed. If you go with the peacebond route include stuff for people tampering with them, and the tampering being noticed. There won't be peacebonding. You'll be expected to keep your weapons out of hand (in scabbards and what not), but nobody is going to bother testing your use rope and hide skills with their spot checks. Besides, licenses invite smuggling, smuggling allows for ridiculous fines, ridiculous fines allow for bribes. That's a lot more fun than a couple of skill checks. :D Include penalties for violating the laws, and ways to get out of the penalties. I.E. Bribe: (diplomacy) Bluff: 'I forgot my permit in my other pants.' Charm/suggestion: 'These are not the restricted weapons you are looking for.' Turn invisible and run Teleport Bribes are included. Bluff wouldn't work. Sure they believe you, but why should the guards care when that just gives them permission to shake you down? Covered - sort of. Mind control spells like that are also against the law, and will just get you an escalated penalty. The last two are aren;t directly addressed, but in the long run they won't work. The first is countered by random informers turning you in for a reward, the second is countered by the city unleashing equally powerful magic from someone in the Guild of Wizardry. That might seem extreme, but then how extreme is it to teleport to avoid what should be a minor smuggling fine at that level? "Obviously" you are up to extreme no good if you have to go that far. So yes, you could escape. And then what? Never return to the city because you are wanted? On another note, my favorite way to smuggle stuff is to hand it to the local druid and have him wildshape into a mount or donkey. That would work. Of course, said druid is then breaking some laws, and setting himself up for more trouble later on, but you should always make it through doing something like that. Again, the cost when you get caught likely won't be worth it. Sam Weiss Core Reviewer
Japangirl 01-21-07, 04:24 PM	We smuggled in two bows last time we were in Greyhawk, and were very glad to have them. There is a PC-killing encounter that required the use of both bows, and while there was no way to hide that we had them (Guards: Why is that dead guy full of arrows? Us: No clue, officers, they must be Polymorphed Any Object daggers) we also didn't get in trouble for using the bows to kill the bad guy. Actually, this was APL 14 so the guards didn't want to mess with us. They told us from 40 feet away we were under arrest, and we invited them to escort us to the Lord Mayor if they really wanted to, since that's where we were going anyways. And then we took our Dire Eagles and flew there, making them run to keep up with us. Good times.
Samwise 01-21-07, 04:44 PM	Dare I ask the name of this adventure?
Japangirl 01-21-07, 06:47 PM	It is still in play, so no.
Samwise 01-21-07, 07:33 PM	I think you missed the subtext there. :P If you want to PM me about it, feel free. I've been waiting to hear more comments on it.
rockondon 01-21-07, 08:31 PM	I happily give up my weapons in that city because I always get them back after the plot starts.
Japangirl 01-21-07, 08:36 PM	I think you missed the subtext there. :P If you want to PM me about it, feel free. I've been waiting to hear more comments on it. Oops :doh: I can be so oblivious sometimes. EDIT: Woohoo my sig showed up!
gomeztoo 01-22-07, 04:29 AM	We ran into Greyhawk arms scrutiny this weekend. The guards told us to give up all bows and crossbows. My bard Clover innocently asked, wthat what, exactly, hypothetically,would happen if I would *buy* a crossbow in the city. She was told that the seller would wrap it up and seal it. So, she continued, what If want to *sell* my here old crossbow because I want to buy a better one? I'd have to take it into the city. Shouldn't it be wrapped then too? One sweet smile and a 36 on Diplomacy later, the guard was cursing his stupidity as he wrapped up and sealed her crossbow. Of course, she totally forgot to get a better crossbow, and instead spent all her pocket money on a pair of lizardskin boots...
thorinXXX 01-22-07, 02:16 PM	A forged pass would be rather difficult to carry off. All the guards need to do is check their records and see that no, you weren't passed through a gate and register a weapon at that time. (Bureaucracy is such an evil thing.) And when you get caught, you are now guilty of forgery as well as smuggling. Bluff wouldn't work long term. You might get in the city, but if anything goes wrong, they are going to check you out, and again you just upped your crime. Favors are covered. Hiding stuff is addressed. There won't be peacebonding. You'll be expected to keep your weapons out of hand (in scabbards and what not), but nobody is going to bother testing your use rope and hide skills with their spot checks. Besides, licenses invite smuggling, smuggling allows for ridiculous fines, ridiculous fines allow for bribes. That's a lot more fun than a couple of skill checks. :D Bribes are included. Bluff wouldn't work. Sure they believe you, but why should the guards care when that just gives them permission to shake you down? Covered - sort of. Mind control spells like that are also against the law, and will just get you an escalated penalty. The last two are aren;t directly addressed, but in the long run they won't work. The first is countered by random informers turning you in for a reward, the second is countered by the city unleashing equally powerful magic from someone in the Guild of Wizardry. That might seem extreme, but then how extreme is it to teleport to avoid what should be a minor smuggling fine at that level? "Obviously" you are up to extreme no good if you have to go that far. So yes, you could escape. And then what? Never return to the city because you are wanted? That would work. Of course, said druid is then breaking some laws, and setting himself up for more trouble later on, but you should always make it through doing something like that. Again, the cost when you get caught likely won't be worth it. Sam Weiss Core Reviewer Actually forgery should work. The guards do not carry the records with them and do not have access to wireless internet. Besides, why take away the fun of someone who actually spent ranks in Forgery? As for the rest; remember we are talking about LG players here. No sacrifice is too great if it saves 5 GP toward the Ultimate Item of Cheesiness.
Samwise 01-22-07, 02:25 PM	Actually forgery should work. The guards do not carry the records with them and do not have access to wireless internet. Besides, why take away the fun of someone who actually spent ranks in Forgery? I suppose it depends on what you consider to be their standard procedure. If they respond to you engaging in casual brutality in the street, they are likely to drag you in for questioning. At such time, the records get checked, and the forgery becomes another crime. As for the rest; remember we are talking about LG players here. No sacrifice is too great if it saves 5 GP toward the Ultimate Item of Cheesiness. Hence why I bothered with rules for smuggling and bribery in the first place. :D 5 gp short of an upgrade is just as "bad" as 5 xp short of a level. Sam Weiss Core Reviewer
Swiftbrook 02-11-07, 05:18 PM	A lot of the campaign staff is out there listening, they just don't reply all that often. At least unless things have changed remarkably since I was Triad. Also bear in mind that some things can't be discussed because of NDA's. So . . . Swiftbrook: "Second: When you get the document typed up, include it in the City of Greyhawk Source Book that should be accompaning the new story arc. Bright Sands had its own source book, so I suspect that the City of Greyhawk/Castle Greyhawk should as well." I will recommend that. Swiftbrook: "2) Give us away to work around/with the laws AR with favor the the city watch allows carrying of weapons AR with access to be a member of some city watch allows carrying of weapons Include rules for getting stuff past the guards, bribes, etc Include a way to purchase a license, if appropriate." All included already. Sam Weiss Core Reviewer Sam, It's been several weeks since the last post. Several year seven adventures are coming out that are in or around the City of Greyhawk. Can you give us a heads up on what we should expect to see in terms of rules, costs and which favors or prestige classes we need to carry our bows (and other forbiden weapons). Thanks for your efforts. -Swiftbrook
Samwise 02-11-07, 05:35 PM	I'd have to check with Creighton about any preview. Generally, you will see what I have noted, just cleaned up and official. It won't include comprehensive rules for serious crimes. As I've said, the punishments for those are 1+ years in prison, and 25%+ of total wealth in fines. If you really break the law that severely, your character is going to be so hosed you might as well just retire and save time and effort. Sam Weiss